Does accelerationism turn Marxism into a faith?
>>779196
>Man helping other people sure is retarded
>>779202
I don't think you know the meanings of most of the words that have been used in this thread.
>>779184
Marxism is strictly a faith. It assumes its own first principles and then doctors evidence to suit them.
>>779202
Not only is it not helping, its actively making true progress worse by creating an unsustainable population explosion of animals who are fighting and killing each other every day because theres no living space or water to go around because you keep giving more resources the more they are which makes the problems even worse because the higher you artifically raise the carrying capacity the more die-offs and mass starvation you will see which means more picture of skellington babies which means more bleeding hearts sending more resources which makes it even worse again ad infinitum.
>>779232
That's actually a pretty good point.
>>779232
The rate of the population we can sustain is rising much faster than the actual population. That is why, a few years back, we actually reached a point in food production where everyone on the whole planet could eat nutritiously everyday. That was the first time in recorded history we've ever been able to do that. A lot of the food gets thrown out of course because the people who are hungry are too poor to pay for it, but you get what I mean.
>>779184
I'm reading up on accelerationism and I don't see what it's got to do with Marxism.
>>779248
Do you work for NASA?
>>779256
Accelerationism is about making things get worse so Marx's predictions come true faster.
>>779272
Hes probably talking about the other accelerationism, as in 'the number one value is making the singularity happen as soon as possible'.
>>779248
Poe's Law in full effect.
>>779184
I'm pretty sure most Marxists aren't accelerationists. Even if they are it doesn't make Marxism a "faith." Why would it?
>>779298
You are acting purely on faith in Marx's prediction, as opposed to experimental proof.
>>779272
Nah, its just a convenient short hand for [thing that a great society can accomplish], and a way to force people to truly examine how their values work.
Civilizations are judged by the hights they can achieve, not by how much garbage it can stack up.
Its very socially acceptable (and cognitively low effort) to take a mere 'numbers game' approach to morality; that the ultimate object is simply to tally up the greatest number of [nominal human units], and whoever gets the highest is holier than jesus.
Obviously there are major problems with such a puerile and myopic perspective; as you know, values are implicit teleologies (and all actions are assertions of value), do these people truly support that which is implicated by the values they piously retweet? In most cases the answer is often no, but they never thought (or thought to think) that far.
By asserting such a value uncritically, they are basically trumpeting cockroach philosophy; that the ideal society is a global factory farm of concentrated humanity, in order to have the greatest number of living 'humans' (however defined, yet another issue) possible.
Obviously such a perspective is very *anti*-civilizational, except in the barest sense. Such ideas, and people who pronounce such ideas, must be denounced if we ever so dare to wish to amount to anything more than scrabblers in the dirt.
>>779202
>creating a population dependent on foreign aid
>not funding education/infrastructure/agriculture so they can become more self-sufficient
It's like you want Africa to remain a shithole forever.
>>779298
Accelerationism: the twin beliefs that a) capitalism will necessarily destroy itself and b) communism will necessarily take its place. Considering how past predictions on the inevitability of communism/instability of capitalism failed utterly, this carries an air of back-pedalling not seen since Harold Camping. Adherents are basically praying, absence all evidence, that their God will finally come down and lead them to the Promised Land.
>>779340
I really think the heights of a civilization have to be judged in more ways than just technology.
>>779330
There are ways to justify a position besides faith and experimental proof; maybe accelerationists come to their belief through logical reasoning (though if so, I'd argue their logic is faulty).
Nevertheless, there's a difference between "faith" and "a faith," and accelerationism is so fringe within Marxism that even if it is a matter of faith, Marxism as a whole isn't.
>>779344
That's not what accelerationism is.
>>779358
>maybe accelerationists come to their belief through logical reasoning
What kind of logic, exactly?
>>779368
I wouldn't know, I'm not an accelerationist.
>>779196
we actually did both lel
>>779349
Of course im not talking about just technology qua technology, though obviously its a big factor.
I can recall a conversation i once had with man i knew while out on a walk. Across the harbor stood a great view of an impressive cathedral edifice.
I mentioned to him that catholics seemed to have much better aesthetic sensibility than the protestants. His retort? 'They had better things to spend their money on.'
At the time i thought to myself, how typical is that? Isint that just the easy refrain of *every* society so challenged? Like the fox and the sour grapes. Its the rationalization of a civilization that *cant* construct beautiful cathedrals. The maladies of such a polity surely go beyond just architecture to have such a state.
Truly, the greatest enemy of civilization is people with bad taste.
They are willing to sacrifice that which is great for thatch which is venal.
Accelerationism is redundant, Neo-liberal capitalism is tearing itself apart. Were already racing towards towards global disaster at breakneck speed. Just sit back, grab a beer, smoke a cigarette, fuck your wife, and enjoy the ride.
>>779202
Why do you morons think that sending food to Africa is "helping people"?
This is what's the general problem with leftists, they can't actually see the inevitably disastrous consequences of their "good intentions".
>Ooogaboogaland is a poor and undeveloped country
>most people in Oogaboogaland are grain farmers
>white cuckold brigade sends a gorrilion tons of grain too Oogaboogaland because CHILLUNZ R STARVIN
>grain is promptly confiscated and distributed by a local corrupt politician / warlord, usually to the tribes and communities allied with him
>grain prices plummet to all fuck, farmers' income is reduced to dogshit and they're forced into unemployment
>some of them starve to death, some go on a crime spree stealing everything they see, some join the warlord's troops that wage war against a hostile tribe
>country is now completely dependent on foreign aid instead of being self-sufficient
>politicians know the gibsmedats are always coming so there's no incentive for developing and modernizing your agriculture
>cuckolds pat each other on the back giving each other brownie points for what good Samaritans they are, wallowing in their economic ignorance
>Oogaboogaland is even shittier than before
>>779400
Neo-liberals aren't leftists. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpAMbpQ8J7g
They're petit-bourgeois douches who want to absolve themselves of any guilt of their wrongdoings.
>>779409
I can't stand listening to this sweaty Balkan faggot, sum it up for me.
>They're petit-bourgeois douches
So are 99% of leftists including Zizek. Actually, especially Zizek.
>>779409
OW THE EDGE
>>779399
I think at this point its starting to become a bigger and bigger mistake to assume capital and feeble ape creatures necessarily overlap; capital is becomming increasingly self sufficient and autonomous, it is relying on humans for fewer and fewer things.
Its not even limited to this planet or this time-line, the whole universe, cosmic capitalism! In the wyld outside of existence narratives compete to bring worlds into existence!
>>779417
Charity is an egotistical act done to rid one's conscious of feelings of guilt. The only way to truly relieve poverty in third world countries is to entirely uproot the system endemic to such conditions.
99% of American "leftists" are douchebags. They're neo liberal crypto facists who fetishize poverty and minority groups as way to feed their ego.
I like Zizek he makes me laugh and he definitely not petit-bourgeois. He is a douchebag though
>>779423
>le fedora sjw meme
nice
>>779428
Capital is inseparable from humans, it is a strictly human concept
>>779431
>Charity is an egotistical act done to rid one's conscious of feelings of guilt.
Source?
>>779433
Altruism is egotistic. That isn't necessarily bad, it can serve many ethical functions, just understand the ideology behind it.
/
>>779438
forgot link.
http://www.iep.utm.edu/psychego/
>>779438
It seems like you're begging the question, because what you're saying is incoherent. "Selflessness is selfish." Well, then literally EVERYTHING you do is selfish. If that's the case, then it's not a valid criticism. And if it's not meant to be a criticism, then it's a completely pointless statement.
>>779431
>leftists are neoliberal fascists
Alright, could you please explain your position without feeling to cram in as many buzzwords as possible, since I can't honestly imagine what in the fuck makes them fascist
>>779441
Psychological egoism is a doctrine, not an argument, and frankly it's the biggest pile of edgy horseshit doctrine there is. "You only jumped on the grenade to save the lives of your friends because it gave you pleasure to save their lives, hah! it's really no less selfish than rape!"
>>779431
>Capital is inseparable from humans, it is a strictly human concept
Do you really believe that? Obviously it makes ones ideological concerns easier to crunch to assume, but havent you read you heidegger? The teleology of *techne* is not the same as humans by necessity. Indeed, techne has its own teleology, *creates* its own teleologies, and indeed, can subordinate beings to its teleologies.
Marx created his theories during a brief effervescant period in history where man himself functioned as a machine for producation. As time goes on however, men are increasingly superfluous to this role, existing only as managers and mediators as techne takes on more and more functions for itself. And if tech e does not *rely* on men as much, it need not necessarily *serve* men as much either.
What a fate that would be, if our progeny would be our posterity, that aliens meet not us, but our superior children, unleashed upon the galaxy!
>>779446
The criticism is not of selfishness itself, it is of the blindness towards their own ideology.
>>779447
American leftists aka neoliberals aka "SJWs". I use the term crypto facist lighly, more to poke fun at their obsession with censorship.
>>779456
Psychological egoism is however an integral part of my arguement. Furthermore, it's not about measuring levels of selfishness. Empathy is compatible with psychological egoism.
>>779457
Empty rhetoric. How is a man's managing role of a machine quantitatively different from his previous one, working directly with it.
>>779468
Well the hordes of listless lumpenproles who no longer have any use for one.
Mo money fo dem programs.
>>779468
>Empathy is compatible with psychological egoism.
It's ultimately not, because if you sacrifice yourself for your country, for instance, the amount of pleasure you are gaining by doing so is dwarfed by the amount of pleasure you could stand to accrue through the rest of your life if you instead lived.
>>779468
Does neoliberal mean "everyone who's not a socialist" in commie lingo?
>>779476
Not that anon, but kin selection seems tangentially related.
>>779476
You presume that amount of pleasured gained through act of serving ones country isn't greater than the alternative.
>>779479
What does that have to do with psychological egoism?
>>779478
No, it means neoliberals
>>779481
Which is reasonable. If you die for your country, the brief pleasure gained from that can surely be outweighed by future pleasure if you live, presuming you are a young man.
'Psychological egoism' (like many other universalized or unfalsifiable conjectures) is the kind of idea a person entertains mainly for how easily it lets them win arguments, rather than how it might actually inform action in practical or virtuous manners.
>>779487
And who are the neoliberals then? What does it mean? I was under the impression it meant the Milton Friedman Reaganite monetarists which are pretty fucking damn different people than SJW cucks crying for social justice and feminism.
>>779496
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-milbank/liberalism-undoing-itself_b_7104638.html
>>779489
>surely
How can you say that? Also, the empathy you form with others is surely a motivating factor.
>>779496
Members and supporters of the neoliberal system. I'm not going to explain it to you read a wikipedia article or something. The addition of a desire for social justice in no way undermines their economic views
>>779504
>huffington post
>>779483
I don't know too much about the specifics of psychological egoism, but sacrificing yourself for your country could be a 'malfunction' (utilising the kin selection process for those who don't share your genes). Similar to a parent protecting their offspring, if you substitute the country for your relatives then it could explain the 'selflessness' observed in situations like this.
I'm not advocating the natural process as the best however.
>>779506
>huffington post
The article is by Milbank
>>779510
my bad m8, didn't bother to look.
>>779506
>How can you say that?
Can't be sure, but basic felicific calculus makes it extremely probable.
>>779506
>what are neoliberals?
>people who like neoliberalism
>what is neoliberalism?
>some shit neoliberals like
Yeah superb fucking explanation, just admit it's a horseshit communist buzzword for everything that doesn't go full Marx just like they use fascism as an umbrella term for everything authoritarian.
>>779513
which is entirely dependent on subjection notions of pain and pleasure.
>>779519
I told you go read a fucking article on it. I'm not going to pain myself explaining such a common thing to you.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Chomsky/NeoliberalismPOP_Chom.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1dv2xkPsz0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism
>>779523
>which is entirely dependent on subjection notions of pain and pleasure.
So is psychological egoism.
>>779525
Now you're getting it.
>>779504
>John Milbanks
Yeah, no. Probably whining about 'muh anti-Christian market fundamentalism'
>>779513
Ah youre not thinking next level though anon; if you die for your country, then you have spent the whole rest of your life happy and died with conscious clear. What could be better than that?
>>779523
>Noam Chomsky
Like I thought.
>>779530
So you would prefer it if someone shot you in the back of the head while your conscience was clear and you were happy?
>>779530
>if you die for your country, then you have spent the whole rest of your life happy and died with conscious clear
Only if you fall for the nation meme (social construct), I'd die with a clear conscious if it was somehow related to the survival of humanity as a whole, not for temporary artificial divisions.
>>779519
>it's a horseshit communist buzzword
It's not though he just doesn't know what it means.
neoliberal=Thatcher and Reagan, not SJWs
>>779344
That's Communism or a kind of Stalinist fatalism. It isn't accelerationism. Accelerationism in the sense I think OP means is taking capitalism to ridiculous levels of intensity for the sake of moving the world in a new direction, given the unsustainable nature of the capitalist world-system. It doesn't want to move toward Communism, though Communists may use accelerationism tactics to forward their own agendas--which are distinguished from accelerationism by the political and economic enfs being pursued by the party involved.
>>779409
>the aim is to reconstruct society on such a basis that poverty will be impossible
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You got me good Slavoj.
>>779358
>That's not what accelerationism is.
yes, it is.
>>779546
'Humanity as a whole' is the biggest meme there is. Blood is what is real, and legal fictions dont make those who are further related to you closer related to you, crossing a border is not a magic spell that changes a mans nature.
>>779400
it is "helping people"...just not africans.
If africa were ever able to stand on it's own two feet, it would industrialize. If it industrialized, it would start using energy resources. If it used energy resources, it would put extreme strain on the carrying capacity of the world's energy resource reserves when considered in the face of the rest of the developed world.
If such extreme strain occured, it could utterly collapse industrial society altogether, which would lead to a grand malthusian die-off in most of the world as our industrialized agricultural industries collapse.
Thus, letting the piddly africans remain in squalor keeps countries that matter from simply dying off and returning to the 16th century as far as technology goes.
>>779496
>And who are the neoliberals then?
Capitalists who give to charity, in a nutshell. Think: Andrew Carnegie. Dirty capitalist to the core, but did philanthropy shit to ease the plight of the pathetic poor, but since he did it in a non-marxian manner, he's an enemy of the marxist and thus a neoliberal, or whatever other invented word the red scum want to use for him.
>>781631
Bill Gates?
>>781639
realistically, anyone that engages in philanthropy who isn't a class-conscious proletarier. Your working class cousin who gives $20 to his church every week to help with the local food pantry is one because he's not class-conscious and gives to non-socialist charity.
It really is what they were saying above: anyone who isn't a full-blown marxist is neoliberal, or whatever other term the red menace wants to make up this day.
Accelerationists don't necessarily prophecize a communist utopia after the failure of capitalism. They merely (correctly) see capitalism as doomed and hope to "accelerate" the coming collapse of the industriaized first-world. I, for one, cannot wait until we are living in the dystopia.
>>781660
>They merely (correctly) see capitalism as doomed and hope to "accelerate" the coming collapse of the industriaized first-world
The only people who should logically desire this are primitivists, and not even the anarcho- kind either.
The likely result of industrialism failing is that it will never start again due to the high barriers to entry needed to start industrial level energy consumption given that all of the low-hanging fruits have been plucked as far as energy resources go.
Accelerationism is a fools errand that will lead to us living in a perpetual 15th century, complete with 15th century politics to boot.
>>781574
No it isn't. I've only ever seen accelerationist used prescriptively, i.e. the argument that we SHOULD expand capitalism to lead to its eventual downfall. It doesn't say that it necessarily will happen.
>>779184
Marxism is a faith by itself.
It's the neoplatonic Reabsorcionism recycled for new tastes. Instead of the Kingdom of Heaven, the Start of History. Instead of union with God, Communism. It's the same crap. Plotinus, re-read by Hegel, who was re-read by Marx.
The accelerationism is somewhat a heresy - since the process is too slow and even unnatural, it is necessary to propel it by other means. I do not speak, of course, class consciousness - in the Marxist canon, needs to be encouraged as part of the perception of contradictions - but the contradictions in itself. In some respects, it is closer to social engineering than most of the Marxist faith.
>>779242
>A lot of the food gets thrown out of course because the people who are hungry are too poor to pay for it, but you get what I mean
no I don't. it's you who doesn't seem to understand that it's a matter of distribution, not resources. Overpopulation is a myth and a nazi-inspired one at that.
>>779344
>beliefs
can you even differentiate between "belief" and "theory"? like, on a fundamental level?
>>779272
>Accelerationism is about making things get worse so Marx's predictions come true faster.
Or false for that matter, either way the modern leviathan that was influenced by him will soon be dead.
>>779428
can you see forever anon?
>>779431
>Capital is inseparable from humans, it is a strictly human concept
what he's saying is right however and you can see it all around you.
>>779446
I see you are unfamiliar with the concept of philosophy and that there exist different weltanshauungs. I gather that you must be an american who fell in the pot of exceptionalism when you were a baby.
