>actually blaming the ideology for what people did in its name
I thought this board was supposed to be full of historicians who can recognize the geopolitical circumstances and historical evolution, while in every other thread i see people blaming everything on Islam/communism/christianity/god knows what else.
I argued about it shitload of times, but my time is better spent on somebody else who isn't a literal plebian who can't see past what the government says
Just wanted to say to you that you are retards one last time before i leave.
>>775840
It's a shorthand you autistic fucktard. No-one actually thinks "Communism" murdered millions, normal people understand that they mean "people claiming to be Communists" murdered millions.
Gas yourself my friend.
Well when the phrase "you may take slaves in the name of Islam" is in the Quran yes it is the ideology that is the issue.
>>775849
And yet Communists blame death under capitalism to the institutional framework of capitalism, not individual capitalists
When "murder [x] group" is one of the tenets of your ideology, then yes, it IS the fault of the ideology.
See you next thread, sperg.
>>775849
>No-one actually thinks "Communism" murdered millions
>mfw
>all those threads i've seen on here and /int/
>all those people i've argued with about it
Mind you i can recognize a troll and there are SHITLOAD of people who believe communism is bad in its basis and its what caused all the shit done in its name.
>>775875
if communism didn't exist what was done in its name wouldn't have happend
you'd have to be a pretty big retard to deny that
>>775879
So are you actually saying that without certain ideology, bad things wouldn't happen in the world?
Are you unironicaly saying that there would be no bloody revolution in Russia or China? That there wouldn't be oppresive regimes at Cuba or Burma? That Russia wouldn't attempt to control eastern europe?
Are you really this fucking naive?
>>775886
>So are you actually saying that without certain ideology, bad things wouldn't happen in the world?
I'm saying without a certain ideologies certain things wouldn't have happend
no national socialism? no holocaust
no communism? no holodomor, no gulags, no kulak decimation
simple as
>>775951
You are exactly the kind of fucking retard that doesn't belong here. You don't know history. You can't see the cause, the circumstances that lead to certain events. You are just another plebian that blindly blames what others told him to blame.
No wait, scratch that. This place is full of retards like you. You fit here perfectly.
>>775969
No, he's right. You just have no idea how people work because you never left the basement. Ideas influence people.
>>775969
disprove what I said instead of flailing your arms around like an autist
I'm not saying "bad" things wouldn't have happend if those ideologies didn't exist, I'm saying that if those ideologies didn't exist the bad things associated with them wouldn't either
>>775840
:-^}
>>775974
So you believe that without nacional socialism, Germanies economical crisis in the 30s caused by them being literally sissified by the rest of the world would be resolved peacefully? That Germans, proud and strong nation throughout the whole history, would be satisfied with paying billions for one loaf of bread and owning ten times the worth of their nation to the world for (in their opinion) justified war?
No, they would rise up in arms and there would be WW2 and they would probably blame the Jews and Hitler would probably still lead them, only thing that would change would be the name of the party. If you ask anybody who actually read a book once, he says its fault of Versailles system, not of any fucking ideology.
>>775978
I said in OP that i spent hours arguing with retards like you on here. I learned that you can never admit you are wrong. The very idea of losing an internet argument makes you incapable of seeing facts no matter how i present them.
I'm just writing it out because you are triggering me, but i shouldn't, because i know its pointless, plebians cannot into complexity of life, you rather simplify it by blaming the ideology, rather than looking at social/economical/geological/literally all of the circumstances and find the cause in there.
>>775989
*Germany's
I just know plebians like to point out grammatical errors when they run out of arguments so i felt the need to correct that
From pragmatic point of view if ideology ends up with hideous results then it clearly means that it is how ideology manifests up in reality of people actions and choices. Basically if some idea failed in practice then it doesn't matter how good theory was on paper.
>>775996
>>775989
so you're saying the holodomor would've happend anyway even without communism (mind you that includes all branches, menshivism and bolshevism)
I'd like you to describe to me exactly HOW
if you can't come up with a reason, then you'll have to admit that had that ideology not been thought up that event wouldn't have happend for any reason
>le its not my job to educate you
you don't belong here
>>775989
> they would probably blame the Jews
Why they would blame the Jews? If this really Versailles fault they should blame France and other countries who assigned such burden for Germany. Jews are totally not part of system.
>>775840
I have made many arguments in favor of geopolitical circumstances as well as economics and the development of technology.
http://desustorage.org/his/search/text/technological%20changes/
at least half of these posts are mine
>>776008
> I'd like you to describe to me exactly HOW
Like every other famine before this one in Russian Empire and every other famine in early XX century like in Bengal under British rule?
>>776023
man made famine*
jesus christ are you being deliberately ignorant or what
>>775851
>Well when the phrase "you may take slaves in the name of Islam" is in the Quran
I can't find this phrase in the Quran
>>776043
> man made famine
Sounds like conspiracy theory to me.
>>776070
whatever you say ivan
>>776008
>explain how 5 thing would happen without ideology
>hurr if u wont explain 6th im still not gonna believe you
>plebians
I honestly don't care about Ukraine enough to know that. Thats the point of history, you have to know shit to explain shit. You can't make vague accusations of ideology just because you don't know the contemporary situation.
But if i had to make up a reason from the knowledge i have, i'd have to say as i did before, that some kind of revolution against tsar would happen, no doubt about it, and new regime that would take over would be extreme, and i can't really say how that regime would handle economy, but considering they overthrew the old regime and killed most of the people leading the antion so far, i'd say they would be shit at it and would exhaust their food storages pretty fast as well, and same as USSR, they would also like to keep Ukraine and tighten its grip on it, so its possible something similar to holodomor would happen. Or maybe it would happen a bit differently, maybe holodomor would happen in Khazachstan or Belarus, but the cause would still be there, because like with aynthing, it goes beyond the ideology that plebians like you blame it on.
>>776018
Who in the world didn't blame jews?
Also youa re fucking retarded, this whole thread was made for the purpose of me saying that plebs can't recognize true cause. its pretty fucking obvious then, that german volk won't blame the true cause but some made up bullshit reason, like the jews who are scapegoats for similar situations for thousands of years.
God damn i said i won't do it, but here i am arguing with plebians again. At least i proved my point, maybe you understand how retarded it is to blame ideology, probably you didn't and youre gonna make up some shitty argument again, but i'm not gonna respond and waste my time and energy here. Fuck off and go read a book.
>>776075
> Who in the world didn't blame jews?
Everyone except Hitler and few other crazy dudes?
>>776066
Are you a blind man?
To begin with, the Quran justifies slavery, and often mentions slaves. Here are some relevant verses:
33:50 - "Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty."
This verse clearly shows that Muslims believe that taking slaves in war was a God-given right. These slaves were considered 'booty' or the spoils of war. As the saying goes: to the victors go the spoils.
23:5 - "... except with their wives and slave girls, for these are lawful to them:..."
The passage's context here (not quoted in full) details how Muslim males are allowed to have sexual relations with their wives and slave girls. Implicit in this is that Muslim males had slave-concubines. 70:30 is basically a repeat of 23:5.
Ibn Sa'd's "Tabaqat", gives a clear description of Muhammad having "relations" with at least one of his slave girls. Muhammad had sexual relations with Mariyah, his Coptic slave. Mariyah and her sister, Sirin were slaves given as gifts to Muhammad. Muhammad gave Sirin to Hasan Thabit, the poet. Ibn Sa'd says that Muhammad "liked Mariyah, who was of white complexion, with curly hair and pretty." [Taken from Ibn Sa'd's "Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir" (Book of the Major Classes), p151].
>>776098
literally READ A FUCKING BOOK
>>776075
>But if i had to make up a reason from the knowledge i have, i'd have to say as i did before, that some kind of revolution against tsar would happen, no doubt about it, and new regime that would take over would be extreme, and i can't really say how that regime would handle economy, but considering they overthrew the old regime and killed most of the people leading the antion so far, i'd say they would be shit at it and would exhaust their food storages pretty fast as well, and same as USSR, they would also like to keep Ukraine and tighten its grip on it, so its possible something similar to holodomor would happen. Or maybe it would happen a bit differently, maybe holodomor would happen in Khazachstan or Belarus, but the cause would still be there, because like with aynthing, it goes beyond the ideology that plebians like you blame it on.
that's a whole lot of speculation and conjecture
it'd require a bunch of factors from communism and the soviets to be the same in the new regime with a new ideology, so many factors being involved that it'd be near impossible for a similar outcome
thus you can say that without communism it wouldn't have happend
To an extent it is the ideology's fault.
Communism although more socialism created the power platform that allowed Stalin to rise to the position he did.
A democratic system would have been much harder to abuse and it would have in the end been forced to become a different system of government.
The tyranny of one cannot exist when the people vote, which is why all those countries ruled by a single dictator like Russia or the Middle East "vote" for the one guy who's on the ballet. Either because it's illegal to vote for anyone else or all the candidates mysteriously died a year after entering the race.
Communism in Russia quickly turned into a dictatorship. I can't say for certain whether a democratic Russia would have avoided becoming a dicatorship, but I do believe it would have lasted a bit longer before it collapsed either by another coup or simple corruption from within.
>>776302
>Communism although more socialism created the power platform that allowed Stalin to rise to the position he did.
how did it do that? you sure it was ideology alone?
>>776363
>Very very very similar outcome would happen since every other factor causing it besides ideology was already in motion
such as?
without communism collectivization of the farms wouldn't have happend and famine wouldn't have made it necessary to take food away from the hohols
you just assume
>i'd say they would be shit at it and would exhaust their food storages pretty fast as well
for no particular reason
ideology was the main cause of the holodomor
>>776375
Such as what i said...
When you overthrow a government and a way of ruling the people that was there for thousand years, then you can't expect shit to go right. My assumption is that extremists take over, use army to govern, army plunders the land + all the old traditional experienced people in charge of economy are gone and new ones might not be as competent, which might cause a holodomor.
