>Christianity destroyed for us the whole harvest of ancient civilization, and later it also destroyed for us the whole harvest of Mohammedan civilization. The wonderful culture of the Moors in Spain, which was fundamentally nearer to us and appealed more to our senses and tastes than that of Rome and Greece, was trampled down (—I do not say by what sort of feet—) Why? Because it had to thank noble and manly instincts for its origin—because it said yes to life, even to the rare and refined luxuriousness of Moorish life!… The crusaders later made war on something before which it would have been more fitting for them to have grovelled in the dust—a civilization beside which even that of our nineteenth century seems very poor and very “senile.”—What they wanted, of course, was booty: the orient was rich…. Let us put aside our prejudices! The crusades were a higher form of piracy, nothing more! The German nobility, which is fundamentally a Viking nobility, was in its element there: the church knew only too well how the German nobility was to be won…. The German noble, always the “Swiss guard” of the church, always in the service of every bad instinct of the church—but well paid…. Consider the fact that it is precisely the aid of German swords and German blood and valour that has enabled the church to carry through its war to the death upon everything noble on earth! At this point a host of painful questions suggest themselves. The German nobility stands outside the history of the higher civilization: the reason is obvious…. Christianity, alcohol—the two great means of corruption.
What did he mean by this?
>>772260
He's saying the Germans never had a higher society, and they only entered Christian society on promises of vulgar looting.
He's also a fan of the Islamic "golden age", probably because a bunch of ancient Greek writings actually only exist in the ancient Arabic, because they spent the equivalent of hundreds of millions of dollars to translate and preserve the ancients, whereas the Germans just wanted to loot some shit.
Was Islam a hipster religion for people to take affection to in the western world pre ww2? Or has our view of it just been skewed by its current state and events?
>>772284
>Or has our view of it just been skewed by its current state and events?
Mostly this.
>>772284
Not view. Islam itself was changed by modern Islamism.
>>772275
>probably because a bunch of ancient Greek writings actually only exist in the ancient Arabic
Where do you think Arabs got these writings?
>>772317
Why do you think they spent millions of dollars?
>>772310
It was changed by the end of the Ottoman Empire and the beginning of Saudi hegemony over Islam.
>>772317
They began circulating with the hellenization of Egypt and Persia. Eventually Arabic scholars would have gotten their hands on them.
European scholars would rediscover the Greek language and the classics written in it later, especially during the Reinassance, and translate them to Latin.
Firstly, Nietzsche distinguishes between Jesus and Christianity. For him Jesus ends where Paul and the Church begins (see Antichrist 33-36). He actually really likes Jesus, but hates the religion established in his name.
Secondly, he's saying the crusades were a shit because they were spread in the name of Christianity (not Jesus). For him they trampled what was up til then a pretty non-fundamentalist religion, thereby converting it into a crude and violent one (like themselves).
Pretty interesting theory, anyone know if it's backed up by modern historical scholarship? or is it just a meme? isn't he conflating moorish spain with the crusades, which were half a world away and a totally different period?
>>772260
Well he seams to be confusing umyyads with moors, other then that he seams to be saying that islamic spain hade its shit together, while christianity at the same time was just a bunch of petty lords fighting over power and then i Think you know how that story ends and basically hes pissed about how the story ended
>>772346
>Pretty interesting theory, anyone know if it's backed up by modern historical scholarship?
He's a continental philosopher, why would he ever care about such things?
>>772343
Some texts existed only in Arabic though, and these were used when a Greek original sould not be found.
>>772343
They were circulating, but where they continually copied and preserved? Because papyrus doesn't last that long, it becomes flakes in a couple of hundred years even if you don't touch it.
>>772346
>He actually really likes Jesus, but hates the religion established in his name.
Hah, I hear atheists say this all the time. I think Gandhi said it too.
>>772379
Oh good, why don't you go tip your fedora with them?
>>772260
Contrary to what apologists will tell you the Golden Age was legitimate and awesome. It was basically the proto-type for the Enlightenment and Renaissance.
It was also very different than our modern Islam. Avverroes and Rumi were considered a heretics by the more conservative religion groups.
Non-golden age Islam was very poorly documented in Nietzsche's time.
>>772388
Jesus wasn't homophobic, or misogynist or saying people went to hell, that all came from Saul
>>772346
Paul did take Christianity in a new direction. His understanding of it differed from the other apostles. For the other apostles Christianity was an extension of Judaism, meaning all the old laws were still in affect, and the Talmud was a holy book. Paul's version was radically universial.
The crusades did change a lot of theology, it's part of how the Vatacin started to get more power than God's commandments. For instance murder was not something a Christian should do under any cirumstance. However by using Augestine's Just war doctrine and the Pope's power of indulgence they could justify a great deal of murder and what they couldn't justify the Pope can always indulgence away.
>>772417
I hate when xians say Paul wasn't a heretic and there's a real theological basis for ignoring the old laws
>>772403
Wrong again.
Matthew 25
‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
>>772373
>Because papyrus doesn't last that long, it becomes flakes in a couple of hundred years even if you don't touch it.
wat
First of all, papyrus is in fact strong and long lasting; secondly, Egyptian climate is very dry and it's the reason whe have been able to recover so many papyri from different eras, ancient Biblical codices, etc that's why Egypt is basically an archaeologist and historian's Disneyland; thirdly, not all manuscripts were papyri anyway.
>continually copied and preserved?
Well, that too.
>>772417
>For the other apostles Christianity was an extension of Judaism, meaning all the old laws were still in affect, and the Talmud was a holy book. Paul's version was radically universial.
A: The Talmud wasn't even written then.
B: Are you familiar with the Counsel of Jerusalem?
>>772464
So what does Islam have to do with Egypt's preservation of texts? they just conquered it. It's not like Catholics monks or the Imperial Library of Constantinople.
Why does this guy's opinion matter?
>>772260
>>Christianity destroyed for us the whole harvest of ancient civilization, and
Dropped
>>772346
>He actually really likes Jesus, but hates the religion established in his name.
He also said in Also Spracht Zarathustra that the only teachings of Jesus which he didn't like were probably only said because Jesus was young, and had he lived longer, he probably would have thought like Nietzsche.
>>772352
not him, us
>>772379
so what?
>>772417
paul and others INVENTED christianity. jesus had nothing to do with it. he was working within a jewish tradition, but he abolished the distinction between jew and gentile. everyone was invited to the table. jesus was universal, paul was a pharisee and returned it back to us vs them.
>>772525
lol that's a bit presumptuous. jesus beleived in justice and egalitarianism, nietzsche didn't. that's pretty irreconcilable.
>>772518
it doesnt dont let him become the ubermensch he always aspired to be.
>>772562
>lol that's a bit presumptuous. jesus beleived in justice and egalitarianism, nietzsche didn't. that's pretty irreconcilable.
Oh, I meant, on the subject of the "hate for life and all things earthly" that Jesus had (according to Nietzche). According to Nietzsche, he just thought like that because he was a youngster and if he had lived to be, say, fifty, he would have had to rethink these beliefs.
>>772562
>everyone was invited to the table. jesus was universal, paul was a pharisee and returned it back to us vs them.
Didn't Jesus say "if you're not with me, you're against me," or words to those effect?
>>772585
How can he hate things earthly when he says the meek are the "salt of the earth" and they shall "inherit the earth"etc.?
>>772596
Here's the said thing.
We have no fucking clue what Jesus said. Niezche beleived later authors put words into Jesus's mouth. He tried to do some guess work about how to sort out the authetnic Jesus from the fake one. But this is the type of thing that can only be done with critical analysis of the text which is a very slow process.
>>772607
That's not what I meant by "earthly goods".
Here's the extract, because discussing the subtleties of Nietzsche in english isn't really my forte :
"Verily, too early died that Hebrew whom the preachers of slow death honour: and to many hath it proved a calamity that he died too early.
As yet had he known only tears, and the melancholy of the Hebrews, together with the hatred of the good and just—the Hebrew Jesus: then was he seized with the longing for death.
Had he but remained in the wilderness, and far from the good and just! Then, perhaps, would he have learned to live, and love the earth—and laughter also!
Believe it, my brethren! He died too early; he himself would have disavowed his doctrine had he attained to my age! Noble enough was he to disavow!"
>>772659
>then was he seized with the longing for death.
This seems more like Socrates than the Garden of Gethsemane.
>>772965
What's even more interesting is that Paul visited Arabia and spent some time there during the time which northern Arabian cities were strong and vibrant and had cultural heritage that would be told in the form of stories and myths up until Muhammad days. There's a book about this very topic with a bit of a far fetched twist that Jesus of Jerusalem is different from Jesus of Arabia and it uses Paul as a way to prove that.
>>773116
Can you remember what book it was?
Christianity is slave morality.
Islam is master morality.
>>773116
WE
>>773132
>religion where you're literally taught to say "I am a slave of Allah" all the time has master morality
>>773125
It is Who was Jesus for Kamal Salibi
Also I recommend another book for him called The bible came from Arabia
>>773142
You can't distinguish between morality and a creed?
>>773133
>using stale memes
>Not knowing what Petra is
>>773142
>"I have never read Nietzsche"
>"I have no idea what master/slave morality actually refers to"
>217. The "Arab Spring". Proof of how stupid the Arabs are that they do not take offense at such a flagrant insult. They even use the term themselves. "Your whole history has been a bleak winter, and it is only when you deny your entire past and accept our decadent values that your spring can finally begin."
>427. Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi on "marching to Rome" and "conquering Spain" and all of Europe. Arabs are the true born comedians of the species: everything they say and do is hilarious. And, like all comedians, they are all talk and no action. They are like the child whom you allow to punch you because it tickles and it's funny. Seeing their acts on TV is the only reason to watch the news anymore. What they need to come to their senses and realize the kind of world they are living in is a really good old-fashioned trouncing. A single European state could take them on all by itself (as the puny state of Israel has been doing for decades), never mind the Americans (who could erase all of Islam from the map in mere hours). The Americans could actually DO what the Arab retards are boasting about — and yet they DON'T boast about it. That's true power. Barking is for dogs.
>488. The Arabs. Disgusting goatherds and camel-fuckers. The only reason anyone is concerned with them today is because they happened to spawn on the planet's oil reserves. They shined at the precise moment when Europe was at its lowest — the Middle Ages —; but even a candle can shine in the absolute blackness of the night, when the sun is over the horizon. Nietzsche, and several other great thinkers, said some good things about them, but none of those people ever actually MET any of them (much less went to the Middle East to experience first-hand their so-called "culture", which is what we all experience, to a thankfully small extent, when we pass through their wretched stinking ghettos in our great cities today), so their ignorance and naivete can be excused.
>>774321
>Alcohol is an Arabic word. Proof that Europe is a region of self haters and desperately want to be cucked by brown skins.
>Stupid form of power flexing. Anyone who tries to erase anywhere else with nuclear weapons is committing planet-wide seppuku.
>Europe was stronger than the Arab world in the late middle ages. And yet they could not rout the Ottomans. And would that sun be China?
And I post this knowing you're a troll
>>772390
Golden Age was built on stolen knowledge from India and the Persians, then the Arabs fucked it up.
>>774846
Do you get off on ruining history discussion with political bullshit?
>>773165
You don't need to read Nietzsche, the entire culture has already absorbed his works. Blah blah, everything is pointless so you should only aim for power, blah blah the universe is on repeat, blah blah Ubermensch will destroy degeneracy, my race will inevitably triumph because we refuse to be cucked, blah.
>>775033
Ubermench isnt about race. Its a state of mind and an intellectual pursuit.
>>774321
>unironically quoting Orgy of the Will
>>774841
WE WUZ ABBASIDS AND SHEIT
>>774841
>stolen
In which case the renaissance was built on stolen knowledge too. And farming was stolen by filthy europeans, as well as herding and masonry and metal working and other such techs.
Basically stop acting retarded.
>>772275
>Arabs develop bastions of civilization and Germans opportunistically loot shit
It's funny how the tables can turn sometimes.
>>775033
Congratulations, you've made the dumbest post since November. No more than five fucking words in your post about Nietzsche were accurate. Great fucking job m8.
>>775033
>You don't need to read
>All I know about Nietzsche is based on nazi shit that wasn't even his writing
>Also babby's first philosophy
>You don't need to read
>>772260
what a cu.ck
>>775033
The Master Slave thing was poorly named, because people just assume he's saying Slave morality is shit and Master morality is great. When really he wasn't that fond of either.
>>775039
>implying it's disagreeable
>>774841
To a degree yes. The knowledge wasn't stolen, it ancient manuscripts that were was translated. And the conservative religious groups are what specifically fucked it up. A lot of the golden age thinkers were considered heretics in their time. Even today mainstream Muslims are not found of say Rumi who tried to turn Islam from a fanatical religion to a neo-platonic mystical experience.
Nietzche had very little knowledge of the the religion outside it's golden age, I don't even think he had a single comment that related to the modern Islam.
>>772260
His view on history is a little too absolutist (Christianity=bad all the time, other cultures=good all the time), but I agree with much of what he says. /pol/fags need to remember that by this point in history, Europeans were pretty much in control of the world, so opposing the imposition of European culture on other, perhaps vaster cultures was a legitimate concern (unlike today, where people just want to guilt-trip White people into giving them stuff for free). Not to mention that the Ottoman Empire was genuinely the most open and cosmopolitan place on Earth.
I wonder what he'd think about the Islam of today, though.
