>Church says that breaking away from it would mislead the faithful
>Martin Luther said that it will actually make people closer since the truth will naturally guide them towards god
>instead makes a bunch of sects that get increasingly nonsensical
>years later Europe shifts more and more to outright atheism
But surely nothing in scripture says that disregarding authority would distance you from god, Oh Wait!
Or maybe
>people are released from authority and view the world without Catholic preconceptions
>without church indoctrination they gradually come to realize that there is no god
>>757920
which funny enough is also pretty much shown in the garden of Eden story
There's nothing in scripture about having a pope vested with the luxuries of royalty and golden idols conducting bizarre rituals using the mummies of saints either.
>all of this linear causality
God, why are Cathocucks such suckers for naive rationalizations? This is like saying that medieval people shat in the streets, then we invented plumbing, and then, years later, wars became more and more deadly the more advanced our plumbing became
COINCIDENCE? I THINK NOT.
>>758033
Most of us aren't. Seems to me it's just OP.
>>758033
Nicholas Cage has a lot to answer for.
>>758033
Don't be ridiculous. Your example is just a random correlation. OP actually suggested a prediction based on canon and verified it. You had no way to predict the Nicholas Cage outcome, and you would never be talking about it if you had not accidentally stumbled upon it. That sir, is a completely different circumstance.
>>758033
But things happened the way OP said they did
Map of Protestantism.
Map of belief in God.
Back when people actually tithed, the church was basically your source of aid because there was no such thing as welfare. As the government took a greater role in the welfare state, church participation dropped, tithing dropped, and atheism rose. The death of religion in Europe was caused by a shift of power from the church to the state. The Pope is no longer treated the same way a king or president is treated. But with the influence of a Christian culture while abandoning the beliefs and tenants of Christendom, it opens Europe up, ripe for conquest through immigration. It also doesn't help that most atheists have no desire for having children, giving them an incentive to let themselves be conquered.
>>758086
Sure, but the USA, which is predominantly protestant trumps most of Europe in terms of belief in God and and France is also a notable exception to your point.
>>758099
France has the same issue as Russia, which is that it has been ruled by aggressively anti-church forces for decades.
The US' protestantism is in major decline.
>>758099
America is really the anomaly, considering that the rest of the anglosphere is falling out of religion. I would say it's a cultural difference, since Americans have a way more anti-government stance. We ran from the state to the church while the rest of the west ran from the church to the state.
>>758114
That doesn't even make sense given that in England the church is the state.
>>758106
Last time I checked Catholicism was dropping in the US and Catholics were becoming non-religious or converting to protestantism.
France didn't magically become ruled by anti-church forces, it is a democracy. You can't simply imply it is some sort of outside force in their society that has had that effect.
>>758156
>France didn't magically become ruled by anti-church forces
No, they had this little thing called the French revolution.
>>758176
Which, again, was a product of French society, you can't simply divorce things that happened in France from France.
>>758156
>France didn't magically become ruled by anti-church forces, it is a democracy.
Are you kidding me?
The seeds of France's rejection of religion were sown long before it became a democracy.
>>758182
Let me guess you also think the Russian Revolution was a product of Russian society.....
>>758156
>Last time I checked Catholicism was dropping in the US and Catholics were becoming non-religious or converting to protestantism.
Really that's probably more due to culture than any theological complaints. It's just easier to be a protestant in a majority protestant country.
>>758221
If you're the same poster who said France has been ruled by anti-Church forces for decades this is twice you've tried to change the subject now. First to the French Revolution and now to the Russian Revolution as though the two were perfectly analogous.
Look, France is a democracy, religion has been dropping there over the past few decades and if the people have been voting in a "anti-church" government that is what they want.
The French Revolution WAS a product of French society and Russia is irrelevant.
>>758212
Sure. They were sown while it was a Catholic monarchy.
>>758238
Whatever the reasons you want to give for it, which are probably fairly complex, that is rather getting away from the original point onto a discussion about something else.
>>758256
I am not the same poster.
I am a poster who is pointing out to you that France has been ruled by strongly secular forces for hundreds of years, long before it became a modern democracy.
If the French Revolution "was a product of French society" they wouldn't have had to send tens of thousands of people to the guillotine, or are you saying it is in the French national character to conduct bloody purges on a Soviet scale?
>>758033
if you're going to take a retarded example at least take one which doesn't have such a shitty correlation coefficient
>>758319
Hundreds of years is putting it rather strongly (or wildly inaccurately) considering the French Revolution happened just over two hundred years ago and was replaced by a Catholic monarchy a few decades later.
And the fact they executed people in no way proves that it was not a product of French society.
>>758350
>replaced by a Catholic monarchy a few decades later
Which was limited in power and only ruled for fifteen years before being overthrown.
I'm sorry but you don't get to just handwave away deliberate policies of dechristianization enacted during the French Revolution, as tens of thousands of people get their heads cut off for expressing the vaguest sentiment that things aren't quite right in France, and claim that it's the will of the people.
Especially when you are making the claim that France is somehow a valid and notable exception to the trend that Catholic nations held onto their belief in God better than Protestant ones. France hasn't been a Catholic nation for a very long time.
>>758033
>shitty actor makes terrible movies
>people are so overcome with pain from them they commit suicide
seems like a good explanation to me
>plumbing didn't do nuffin, it don start no warz!
Plumbing made things more efficient which means people have more time and energy to do other things like start wars.
>>758444
>I'm sorry but you don't get to just handwave away deliberate policies of dechristianization enacted during the French Revolution,
I haven't handwaved anything away.
I said it was a product of French society. You should note the French Revolution, which happened in CATHOLIC France and WAS a product of French society happened nearly three hundred years after the start of the Reformation. Unless you are making the claim the de-Christianisation happened due to an outside force invading France and was therefore not a a product of French society your point is irrelevant.
>Especially when you are making the claim that France is somehow a valid and notable exception
I didn't.
I said France and USA, that would be the USA with a population nearly the size of the entire EU population and is majority protestant and has a higher level of religiosity than pretty much anywhere in Western Europe.
>>758106
>The US' protestantism is in major decline.
not really
college atheist are a very small and temporary vocal minority compared to the religious
As an atheist, I'd love to shake the hands of John Wycliff, Jan Huss, and Martin Luther for breaking the back of the church.
>>758837
Luther's contribution to human history may have been to break the Catholic Church, but he (and Calvin) were still as nutty as Wahhabists.
The idiotic religions they started are the roots of the like of Kent Hovind.
>>758856
I don't know Luther seemed a lot more conservative about that shit
one of the reasons why people call him "the first protestant" is because he thought that society and religion should be at the hands of the German nobility (thus said nobles protected him making him the first protestant to get away with it). When a bunch of peasants started revolt saying "we protestant nao!" ML condemned them.
>>757904
Truth.
Protestantism naturally leads to shitty theology and atheism.
Just look at how America has a crappy issue with Evolution.
Just look at how all the so called Protcuck countries in Europe are all irreligious.
>>758892
Evolution and Cosmology and Geology DO basically disprove the Christian God and the bible though.
At least, in fairness to them, American protestants are taking a consistent position rather than engaging in cognitive dissonance.
>>758959
Thats entirely wrong though. This is a modern ignorance you're espousing.
>>758081
>all the best and most successful Euro countries are Protestant, not papist cucks
o i am laffin
>>759490
As more of the universe became explained by natural forces things shifted towards Deism.
Even back in the Moorish culture Avverroes was saying that since the universe is governed by natural forces miracles cannot literally happen because they would break God's ordered universe (Hume would later rephrase this). The result was we got some distant, impersonal God that just sustains the universe as the first mover: ala Deism.
The jump to the Deist God being not seperate from Nature but one in the same was the next logical step which Spinoza took.
>>759529
>As more of the universe became explained by natural forces things shifted towards Deism.
All pre-modern Christianity supported divine conservation which invalidates deism inherently. The idea of a God-object sitting by and tinkering on things is a modern invention that Protestants (being the spirit of modernization they were at their time) entirely accepted.
Is everyone forgetting that the popes of that era were literally having orgies and making sin free cards to fund their shitty failed wars?
The Catholic Church brought this upon themselves. Luther despite being messed up did not originally want to separate anything.
>>759543
Right. It was a decent reform (Ala St. Francis) that went to absolute shit. Luther had his problems even in his Theses but they only got worse as time went on.
>>757904
There was a study published that proved that in all religions, save one, education promotes atheism.
https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/latter-day-saint-social-life-social-research-lds-church-and-its-members/9-secularization
Perhaps Martin Luther was correct, but his theory wasn't yet applicable?
>>759552
>lets inject people in modern western education and see if they turn out less religious on average
>turns out they do
>why are religious people so stupid
The study fails as it assumes modern western education is some neutral group theologically.
Martin was right. The surprise here is that in truth god doesn't exist. People now closer to truth than before it just happens that you can't be close with God and close with Truth at the same time.
>>759613
You apparently didn't read the study, or my post.
I was inferring that education only encourages faith if said faith is based around a truth which is correct in and of itself.
The study stated that in all cases but one education promotes atheism, with the exception of Mormonism. In Mormonism, increased education actually drastically increases church attendance and adherence to practices.
To put it more simply for you, Luther was right, but he was talking about the LDS faith. Mormonism just wasn't around yet.
>>759991
LDS is a retarded faith balanced out by good people.
>>760024
Why do their people turn out so good on average then? What about the faith make it so?
>>760066
Continuous revelation is pretty good for throwing out shitty outdated dogma.
>>757929
The Garden of Eden is a suprisingly accurate metaphor for our current society actually.
People have everything they could ever want, compared to the shitty mud huts people lived in at that point, we live in a paradise.
The snake isn't really a representation of any one feature of society, much more for the entire narrative we're presented with, where god isn't so much non-existent, but rather completely irrelevant.
I shouldn't have to explain what the apple would represent in this situation, it's not a huge leap.
>>758033
>66.6%
This chart is the work of Satan. Please disregard it.
>>761266
>apple
Stop perpetuating this meme.
Love Adam and eve
>>757904
>But surely nothing in scripture says that disregarding authority would distance you from god, Oh Wait!
>Oh Wait!
Where?
Acts 5:29: "We ought to obey God rather than men."
>>757920
Actually protestards were harder on being zealous than catholics through all recorded history.
