What is the lowest form of life which can feel pain?
me
All living beings feel the pain of existence.
Does responding to negative stimulus count?
>>751495
Until we solve the hard problem of consciousness (if ever), this is the best metric we have. Even then, it feels unsatisfactory.
>>751494
>first first 4000 years of human history, the greatest source of pain is trying to survive, and in the Odyssey Achilles says from Hades he'd rather survive on as a toiling slave than perish
>today people whine that existence itself is too much of a burden and is agony to have even EXISTENCE as a responsibility
>>751507
>People being afraid of death
vs
>People who have accepted the inevitable
>>751498
it's not a problem
>>751512
Death is not some scary monster in ancient though, it is just a termination of existence.
There is nothing, nothing virtuous at all, about accepting what you can't control.
>>751492
Underrated post of despair.
>>751519
Since when do you have no control over your own death? It's probably one of the only things you can have total control over.
>>751525
Then most people would live forever.
>>751484
Liberals
>>751537
What?
>>751557
People can control their death like they can control their virginity.
OP
>>751588
You're simply wrong though. I can take a knife right now and slit my throat, I won't but it is something I have total control over, I cannot how ever go out and get some pussy, unless I resort to rape.
Death is the only, only thing the common person has total control over in most cases, saying "people would just live for ever" is simply retarded and I have literally no idea why you would even bring it up.
>>751603
>I cannot how ever go out and get some pussy
Do you have $200? You can get enough pussy for an evening.
>>751484
(You)
>>751613
You understand the point being made, right?
>>751525
You absolutely have no control over when you will die, what are you talking about?
>>751623
Care to explain your utter retardation? What is suicide? You've literally always got the choice to die, unless your hands are also, literally tied.
>>751626
>>751623
being able to initiate death isn't the same as having a total unambiguous control over your own death. There are very many ways your decisions influence if you're going to die in some situation, but those situations will also lead you to other people with their own motives or random natural accidents that can all cause your death w/o any consent on your part
Say you go driving and get hit by a double-decker bus, do you really have any control there? Or you find out you have a terminal illness - in this case you can choose to seek treatment or not or just put a gun to your head and avoid the tedium, but the real choice has already been made beyond your own involvement
>>751525
>Since when do you have no control over your own death? It's probably one of the only things you can have total control over.
this would undermine the most basic anxiety of all humans and any vaguely self-reflective organism; you can't control your life or death, any number of foreign sources could end in your death and there's nothing to do to avoid it
>>751494
what? are you fucking stupid? people are the only living beings that are aware of our (painful) existence. We are the only beings that aware of our inevitable death. you think my cat knows she's going to die?
>>751603
You have control over embracing virginity, just like death. You do not have such control over nullifying death or virginity.
>>751656
>you think my cat knows she's going to die?
Cats are the perfect example. You are right to say human beings are the only ones who 'know' what they are feeling, who is to say they are the only ones who feel said feelings though? Cats feel boredom, how can it not feel the pain of existence, it just simply doesn't know what it is feeling.
>>751650
>getting this deep into semantics
Really, now? See below.
>>751672
Who said anything, anything about getting rid of death? being in control of your own death means you are controlling how you are going to die.. It doesn't mean you have control OVER death, it means you can control the way you can die. I worded all my responses to specifically imply just this. Maybe I should just explicitly state things so there is no confusion?
>>751689
>being in control of your own death means you are controlling how you are going to die..
You can't control that. You can't choose to die from suffocating in the vacuum of space. You can't even choose *when* you die, except with a fractional margin of eternity. That's like saying you have control over where and how you want to live while being tethered on a six-foot chain.
>>751698
within* a fractional margin
>>751698
>being this desperate for an argument
You can just stop, you know?
You didn't even read my responses, what point is there in stating you have no control over things you have no control over? I have literally addressed this very point previously.
>You've literally always got the choice to die, unless your hands are also, literally tied
Please, stop making yourself look like an idiot.
>>751656
Given that everyone who has owned cats knows that they can sense their death coming, and will usually leave to die in a bush, yes.
They routinely give obvious signs that they know they are dying when the time comes.
>>751689
I don't think you have proven that ALL existence is inherently painful. One can argue because death is painful and if you are aware of your inevitable death, existence too must be painful, but you that's not what you're arguing
>>751733
Take away all existential influences, I.e place yourself in a room where the only thing you have is your existence and that will be a pretty dam painful life.
>>751746
well I choose to make it a painful life, it's not inherent.
>>751753
It can't be inherit, that's the point. You cannot live a life with just your existence, it's too painful and no lifeforms would chose it. All these outside influences make it interesting and apparently worth-while.
>>751746
Why do secularists consider pain innately bad?
>>751763
How can pain be anything but bad? If you consider death to be bad and life good pain must therefore be bad. Pain is a survival instinct which kicks in when something is threatening you.
>>751766
or strangely enough it can be good if you think of it like "oh thanks for letting me know I broke my leg, now I can go get it fixed".
>>751494
>trees feel existential pain
>>751766
Natural doesn't imply good or bad, if anything humans (and other species) evolved with pain as an important factor, pain is natural and beneficial (moderate not extreme pain), exercise might be painful, but obesity is maladaptive.
>>751780
How do trees feel then?
>>751766
>>751492
do you want a hug
>>751784
Nothing that can be described in such terms, anymore than they can feel puzzled.
>>751781
>Natural doesn't imply good or bad
Human beings are natural, no? We imply good and bad. We are literally made form the universe thinking about things inside the universe.
Too much exercise can also be bad, just like obesity can be a good thing.
>>751800
>anymore than they can feel puzzled
How can you know this? How can you know they do not feel a similar feeling like we feel puzzled but it's a feeling which is created from the tools they have been given?
You simply do not.
>>751805
>We imply good and bad
Doesn't mean that it's objective.
>obesity can be a good thing
Being 'overweight' can be beneficial in some situations not obese, and the obesity in your pic likely symbolises fertility or something, it would have been difficult to become obese in the palaeolithic, therefore to obtain enough excess food to become obese would have been a difficult and 'painful' endeavour, the modern anthropogenic environment has many maladaptive features promoted.
>>751820
>the modern anthropogenic environment has many maladaptive features promoted
I am not disputing this, simply saying to every coin there are two sides.
>been a difficult and 'painful' endeavour
Not for the women involved. Unless of course she caught all her food which was provided for her, which is highly unlikely.
>>751820
>Doesn't mean that it's objective.
I would say subjective. It still relies on the individual/s.
Evil people don't think they are evil for instance.
>>751824
>Not for the women involved
Pretty sure on average more calories (at least in more modern hunter gatherers) were provided from foraging and small game hunting/trapping, rather than the big game hunting dominated by men (obviously big game provides hides and sinew etc that are useful aside from the food value.)
>>751808
Do people who are completely unconscious, and not even dreaming, feel puzzled?
>>751833
The matriarch would not be doing anything. You don't get fat enough to constantly and consistently have children if you are constantly working. If symbols of fertility were usually plumb they must have had this understanding.
>>751836
Again, who knows? Until you can tell me how one feels when they are unconscious, somehow without thinking, it's something we simply might not ever know.
>>751613
>$200
>enough pussy for an evening
not even close to worth it desu.
>>751842
>Again, who knows?
I know, having been knocked completely unconscious before. And the answer is no.
>>751760
this is circular logic m8. existence is painful because no one would choose to live a painful life because life is painful. there are a priori arguments for the greatness of life
>>751839
You do realise that food supply varied massive between seasons, let alone larger scale climate factors. potentially something like you mentioned could have happened for a while, but the opposite to it, surviving on the edge of starvation also occurred.
>>751766
>Pain is a survival instinct which kicks in when something is threatening you.
Which obviously means that it protects you from harm.
Imagine not being able to feel pain, and accidentally burning yourself over and over again. Eventually you might smell burning flesh.
>>751853
>what is priority
>what is stockpiling
>>751484
Pain can't really be measured, especially when we're talking about the subjective shit.
But a good guess would be a brony or weeb. Maybe a fly.
>>751848
so you were conscious of unconsciousness?
>>751870
>What happens when the stockpiles run out.
>>751878
You are really asking what happens when people run out of food? Are you really trying to imply people are not capable of what the squirrel is capable of?
>>751484
i think thats its insects
>>751878
Do even understand how agriculture works?
>>751882
Are you actually retarded? If there is a period of good years when you're able to stockpile excess, followed by a period of difficult years, then maybe after the first year you replace the stockpile a little less than the first year, after a few more years you might be stocking up enough during one year to make it through the harsh summer/winter, but eventually have no carry over between years, have a particularly ad year and end up running out of food weeks or months early, what happens then, you do know that humans can survive like a month or more without any food?
>>751892
The obese figure the other anon posted is from ice age hunter gatherers.
>>751898
Which implies that they've seen fat people before,
>>751895
You are trying to imply this happened literally everywhere people were. The goal was to have the matriarch take on fat to produce children, obviously there are going to be circumstances where this wasn't possible, doesn't mean that wasn't the goal, though.
>>751906
>The goal was to have the matriarch take on fat to produce children
Proof? oh wait no the only thing possible is speculation.
>>751515
Well you don't seem to have any answers, friendo.
>>751913
Just like 90% of evopsych bullshit.
>>751918
>Being overweight and acquiring/storing food being discussed is evopsych
>>751918
>evopsych is bullshit because my opinion matters
>>751798
No, but thanks.
>>751525
You can take conscious decisions to mitigate risk of untimely death, but death will come.
>>751484
Probably anything above the microscopic level.
If an earthworm is digging through the ground and bumps into a sharp rock or stick than it needs to have the pain to tell it that it will become cut if it continues pushing against it.
>>751484
OP
>>751918
Why does evolutionary psychology piss people off? What would the alternative explanation for psychological phenomenon even be? Our entire understanding of organisms is informed by evolution.
>>755083
Because it implies some behaviors are innate.
>>755122
How is that controversial?
>>754765
Just because you aren't aware of a choice doesn't mean it's not there. If you are sitting with your head in the gallows you can still swallow your tongue, choosing your own way out.
Yes, death will always come, but it is also one of the only things at all times we can choose.
>>755150
>you can still swallow your tongue, choosing your own way out.
Pretty sure my tongues too short for this to be an option.
