I'm from /tg/ and need to know everything you've got about the Minoans. Is the theory that they became the Sea Peoples utter bullshit or no?
Nobody knows. I think the sea peoples were Vikings.
>>745250
Could have been an antediluvian civilization drowned in the flood. That would kind of cover the whole underwater thing.
>>745260
>implying pre-Viking barbars had the means to come down to the Mediterranean and fuck shit up
>>745250
where they Islamic?
>>745250
>tfw no qt Minoan gf
no theory because the minoans spoke a form of greek
the sea people spoke alien
>>745305
>>745315
I don't know why this is so fucking funny
>>745315
What the fuck are you talking about? We still don't know what the fuck the Minoan language was like. Haven't made any progress whatsoever on translating any of it because it /isn't/ Greek.
>>745346
the minoan civ fell around the same time as the appearance of the sea people, it is more likely they were the victims than the aggressors
>>745360
>island explodes, ash cloud kills off all plant life
>you now have a civilization with a lot of boats and no food
>what do
Seems like a pretty straightforward line from that to "become sea-based raiders."
>>745377
there was a natural disaster but that was a few hundred years before, then came the mycenaean who were greek then the bronze age collapse
the time doesn't fit, they could have been forced into it by the sea people
>sea peoples weren the victims of Finn weaponized autism testing resulting in their displacement
>>745360
No, it fucking didn't you retard, the minoan got taken over around 1450 bc by Myceneans, the sea people started wrecking havoc around the 13th century bc.
>>745377
That happened in 1650 bc, the sea people didn't appear untill the late 13th century bc, also the Minoan civilization managed to get back on its feet and re-build some palaces after the eruption, it was the myceneans who gave them final blow around the 15th century bc.
>>745456
they were not totally replaced my the myceneans
>>745360
>>745444
Also the few sea people that we know of spoke Indo european languages (the Philistines and the Lycians) and if anything material culture connects them to the myceneans, surely they were not a single tribe however, saying the minoans were "the sea peoples" is stupid also because of this.
>>745478
I didn't say they were, those who didn't mix with them escaped to the highlands where they were protected, the sea people however are more related to the myceneans because of the material culture we have (pottery, philistine documents, sword types)
>>745305
>when you go full retard
>>745250
They used to bully the Athenians until they gained independence and the myth of Theseus is the story that commemorates Athenian independence.
This thread has made me lose faith in /his/. You're all fucking retarded.
>>745250
When the Myceneans conquered lowland Crete, there were Mycenean holdouts for centuries up in the mountains of the island, with views over the lands conquered from their ancestors.
>>745563
Seriously. I sometimes think people on this board don't have a clue how basic causation works.
>bronze age collapse happened
>one group gets fucked up
>clearly they became the massive nomadic collective that went around the eastern Mediterranean sacking every single city from Cillicia to Egypt.
>>745315
The sea people speak illegal alien.
>>745705
Alrighty then smart guy, who the fuck were the Sea Peoples? Where did they come from?
A Cretan philosopher named Epimenides famously said that "all Cretans are liars", but he was a Cretan, so was he a liar too? This became known as the Epimenides Paradox.
Epimenides is cited in the in bible:
One of Crete's own prophets has said it: "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons." (Titus 1:12)
The quote is taken from this poem, written by Epimenides and shamelessly plagiated by Paul the Jew, aka "saint" Paul:
They fashioned a tomb for you, holy and high one,
Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies.
But you are not dead: you live and abide forever,
>For in you we live and move and have our being. (Inb4 butthurt Christards)
The verse
"They fashioned a tomb for you, holy and high one"
makes reference to a belief of the Cretans that Zeus had died and risen again, not unlike Tamuz, Adonis and of course Jesus (Inb4 more butthurt) giving rise to speculation of Near-Eastern influences in the cult of Cretan Zeus.
Research: The Death of Zeus Kretagenes - Kernos - Revues.org
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimenides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimenides_paradox
>>745433
Only people on /x/ know how to deal with reality?
>>745733
Are you okay?
>>745433
Ignatius Donnelly (1831-1901), lawyer, land promoter, politician and virtuoso author, is today best known for his pioneering work on the subject of Atlantis, "Atlantis the Antediluvian World" (ATAW). Published in 1882, ATAW is one of the best constructed Atlantis theories, as it makes no recourse to occult or 'channeled' information. Donnelly's lucid style and command of the facts (such as they were) make the book readable and compelling even today.
This guy belong on /x/ too?
>>745250
They eventually migrated to Bell Labs in New Jersey and became the C People.
>>745752
>This guy belong on /x/ too
Yes. Atlantis was a fucking story Plato used to prove a point.
>>745733
Ah, but he was one of their prophets, so the saying did not originate from him.
Titus 1
One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.
>>745731
I'm not him, but the sea people were a confederation of tribes coming from the central mediterranean and Anatolia, according to our material culture they were mostly indo europeans and connected to the myceneans.
There is also bronze age Italic and Nuragic pottery in Crete and various other Mycenean sites (some of them considered to be sea people sites) so some of them could have been mercenaries from Italy and Sardinia, although I'm not sure of that.
Certainly the sea people tribe known as Lukka originated from western Anatolia and were known as lycians during the iron age.
The Philistines who settled in Palestine during the late bronze age were also a sea people and spoke an indo european language similar to mycenean greek from what I remeber, they could've come from Anatolia.
>>745765
That's odd. People think it really existed.
I'll tell them you know it didn't.
>>745765
The most commonly accepted hypothesis is that Plato's account of Atlantis can be explained by the Thera catastrophe. A thriving Minoan-era culture in the Aegean was destroyed by a volcanic eruption on the scale of Krakatoa or Mt. Saint Helens, on the island of Thera circa 1500 B.C. This catastrophic explosion appears to have coincided with the start of the downfall of the Minoan civilization on the island of Crete, so it may have been accompanied by ash falls or tsunamis which destroyed coastal towns, reducing the viability of Minoan civilization (the economy was largely based on maritime activities).
The Thera discoveries have been extensively documented; portions of the city on Thera which the explosion covered with lava has been excavated and are eerily similar to Plato's account. The layout of the Thera city had several circular canals surrounding a central acropolis just as Plato described (reduced in size by a factor of ten). The date was about 900 years prior to Plato, which is also a factor of ten less than the 9000 years that Plato gave for the destruction of Atlantis. So it is now accepted by mainstream archaeologists that an entire civilization could have been destroyed 'in a single day'.
I'll tell people you say this is wrong. Surely they will believe you.
>>745770
Few tribes, half of were cut.
Imba they were refuges from Finno Korean war.
>>745770
I thought the Philistines were rather Hellenized.
>>745733
"Minoan culture contributed many essentials of ancient Greek religion... and Cretan Zeus retained his youthful Minoan features. The local child of the Great Mother, "a small and inferior deity who took the roles of son and consort"...
...and he came to be venerated in Crete as Zeus Velchanos ("boy-Zeus") often simply the Kouros.
In Crete, Zeus was worshipped at a number of caves at Knossos, Ida and Palaikastro...
The myth of the death of Cretan Zeus... suggests that Velchanos had been an annual vegetative spirit."
This Cretan "Zeus" and boy-Zeus has many traits of a youthful, death-and-risen again, Tamuz-type Near-Eastern deity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus#Zeus_Velchanos
>>745731
>Alrighty then smart guy, who the fuck were the Sea Peoples? Where did they come from?
I have absolutely no fucking idea. But they weren't the remnants of a relatively pacifistic (by ancient standards) trading power. Large scale coastal civilisation was pretty much destroyed by them, strong powers like Ugarit and the Hittites completely crushed. Unless by some miracle more archaeological data is found from the period we'll never know who they were.
They were presumably just various wandering tribes taking advantage of a chaotic time, like what occured in the 5th century AD. I doubt they were a united, culturally homogeneous group.
>>745788
A bit odd; Adam (Zeus) and Nimrod's son (Tammuz) don't really get mixed up that often.
>>745751
I'm fine thank you.
>>745752
In "Vampire, His Kith and Kin" Montague Summers wrote a very well-researched book on the topic of vampires and vampire hunting, but that doesn't make vampires any less of an /x/ topic.
In "The Lost Continent of Mu," James Churchward presents a very compelling argument for the existence of a lost continent in the south Pacific, but it's solidly /x/ material after plate tectonics was discovered, disproving lost continents in general.
>>745794
I love that your counterpart a half century ago vehemently argued that the Hittites didn't exist, because they were only found in the bible. It's the little things in life that make living so much fun.
>>745798
I'm sorry, are you saying that no human being has ever consumed human blood?
>>745770
http://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspotdotit/2015/10/mystery-of-philistine-homeland-solveddothtml#dotVs5JJvnhDIU
Here's a new theory that connects Philistine (an Indo European sea people tribe) with an Anatolian people.
In fact Egyptians talked about foreign invaders from the north and from all lands.
Also the philistine were one of the few to have been said to have arrivied with chariots and not by sea, so it makes sense that they arrived from there (South weastern Anatolia) thorugh the Levant.
>>745804
We'll just have to see really. It's down to archaeologists now. Carbon dating artefacts might help track down who they were. There would have been no reason to believe the Hittites had even existed until the day came when a certain strata of discovered goods was ascribed to them. It's all just about categorisation. People have only been studying the Sea Peoples for over a century, it's early days.
>My father, behold, the enemy's ships came here; my cities were burned, and they did evil things in my country. Does not my father know that all my troops and chariots are in the Land of Hatti, and all my ships are in the Land of Lukka?...Thus, the country is abandoned to itself. May my father know it: the seven ships of the enemy that came here inflicted much damage upon us
>a few months later the city is destroyed
>>745821
>Philistine (an Indo European sea people tribe)
This is very important.
Daily reminder that if you're a Christian you take the side of the Jews against an Indo-European people in the Philistines.
>>745773
>People think it really existed
They're idiots.
>>745775
>the most commonly accepted
By some, not by most. The most commonly accepted theory is that it was a story. Plato isn't making a fucking account of shit, he is literally telling a story for the purpose of making a point. You could say that the eventual fate of the city in his story may have been inspired by his knowledge of the catastrophic events that befell the Minoan settlements and you would probably be correct, but you're implying quite a bit more than that. Also your factor of 10 bullshit falls apart wen you remember that the event happened around 1580BC, and Plato was born in 428BC. It was more than 1100 years, not 900.
>>745836
The Lukka were one of the sea peoples themselves and inhabited western Anatolia.
That attack on the other hand was by the hand of the Shekelesh though that some connect to Sicilians, other to Southern Anatolians.
>>745852
Not him, but, I like the idea of the story being based on a folk memory which all Greeks would be able to understand, an old fishwives tale of an ancient land long ago being destroyed by the sea. Cultural memory is not quite as shit as you might think, especially in an oral, bardic society like ancient Greece. The Iliad survived and was refined for centuries before being written down.
>>745879
Since the Greeks forgot all about the hittities (a major power during the bronze) with whom Mycenean Greeks, their fucking ancestors, ahd multiple contacts and even fought over stuff, I doubt they'd remember about that.
>>745888
Empires rise and fall Anon, it's shit like primordial floods, solar eclipses and massive migrations that are remembered by civilisations. Plus, that shit isn't an exact science. Oh, and the Troy of the Homeric cycle may have been a Hittite tributary state called Wilusa.
>>745879
I don't doubt that it was somehow inspired by that. Even if Plato himself didn't believe the event occurred he would have been aware of it.
What I find offensive is this desire to make it out to be anything more than a story.
>>745893
Not once are hittities mentioned by greeks though
>>745849
The Jews were mortal enemies to the Indo-European Philistines, yet Jew-worshipping Christofaggots get a hard on when the bible narrates how swarthy, hairy Samson lusted after fair Dalila and treacherously killed thousands of Philistines (probably never happened though).
And the same Israel-firsters of Antiquity (=Christards) celebrate when the bible tells how manlet proto-Lazar Kaganovich " king" David supposedly killed the tall, Aryan "giant" Goliath of Philistine.
>>745797
Just wanted to make sure. You sounded a little crazy there.
I know you had a point you where trying to make, but it wasn't getting through.
>>745893
This is why it is surprising how fast greek forgot about them they fougjt with them over troy and yet don't remember of their exustence they're never even mentioned among either of the two sides
>>745894
>What I find offensive is this desire to make it out to be anything more than a story.
Oh well yeah, of course. The idea that an ancient Atlantean Empire conquered the entire Mediterranean before being shat on by the gods for their hubris is obviously just allegorical.
>>745906
Ignoring the fact that we only have 0.000000001% of everything the Greeks ever wrote about due to the pathetic survival rate of ancient texts, the fact that they're not mentioned is hardly relevant. The name of a barbarian kingdom in even their own time wouldn't have mattered to most Greek writers, let alone one from a thousand years earlier.
Plus you forget that there was a massive dark age in between the Hittites and the Greeks regaining literacy. A lot of knowledge vanished.
>>745822
Except that their existence is properly in the bible, and therefore true.
Strange how God doesn't need men to back up His word.
>>745852
>Believes Plato existed
kek
>>745927
Or in Genesis.
Either one.
>>745927
Except that it wasn't just a Kingdom it was the most relevant power of the rime and only a few hundred uesrs passeggeri between their fall and when the greek poema were written
>>745942
That's a poor example of a shitpost.
>>745908
But as we all know in reality Jews always BTFO in military conflicts and only thrive in times of peace through treachery. That's why I give full credence to the story of Jewess Esther, in which the Jew Mordecai uses his cousin as a whore to get the Persian Aryan king Xerxes to grant religious freedom to the Jews.
>>745962
get* BTFO
And yes Christofaggotards will side with the Jews on this one too.
>>745958
You engaged them and now they're multiplying. I mean look, we have a guy who really hates the Jews, the guy who thinks the OT is 100% accurate, and the guy who really hates Christians for reasons that when he explains he just sounds insane.
And this is a Minoan Civilization thread. Where the fuck did it go so wrong?
>>745957
>Except that it wasn't just a Kingdom it was the most relevant power of the rime
It was, but the Greek concept of 'arche' didn't pop up until many centuries later. They were just (I imagine anyway) another powerful group of people on their borders, to be treated with suspicion. Also, the fact that someone is the most relevant power of their time doesn't mean the ancients would bother writing about them. Barely any accounts of the Parthians and Sassanids survive from the Romans unless related to their wars. People just didn't give a shit.
>only a few hundred uesrs passeggeri between their fall and when the greek poema were written
A few hundred years is a long time for oral poets to keep a story intact without fudging the details. A guy called Parry proved that the Iliad and Odyssey had spent several centuries in embryonic forms as poems sung by bards, gradually being changed over time for various reasons or another. By the time they were written down and formalised as we see them today, any political details were obviously written out as part of making them epic poetry with universals that apply to every civilisation. An 8th century Greek getting drunk off wine listening to an old man singing was hardly going to get off on hearing about the political situation of the 13th century Mediterranean. Only half-truths can be glimpsed.
This is all hypothetical anyway, who the fuck knows. The whole time period is so murky.
>>745995
Religion should just be banned from the board.
>>746003
I liked the idea at first, but ya. I agree. At this point all the religion topics do are piss people off and act as a summoning point for retards.
I mean, I liked the Orthodox, and not Constantine made me hate them.
