Why should we do good works if we're already saved?
I don't think someone who actually internalized Jesus' message, and was saved, would question the point of doing good.
Why not sin all your life and convert on your deathbed?
>>740786
You answered your own question, "good works" literally mean "things that one should do".
>>740801
Because you have no idea when and where your deathbed will be?
>>740786
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. -Revelation 2:5
>>740786
wat if u r calvin and u dont no if u r save?
:(((
>>740804
define should
>>740786
Sola Fide master race cunts, a good man does good deeds, but good deeds don't make a man good.
>>740786
Because you were saved for a purpose that is greater than just you. You've got to realize that you have not been created; you are being created. Creation of the individual is an ongoing process that involves everything, from your time in sin, to the point of salvation, and the spiritual growth that is to follow.
You, as an individual, do not end at the point of salvation.
>>740837
I like this. Sounds nice.
>>740837
Sola Fide is stupid.
You can't do anything so God mind controls you to do stuff.
WTF
IT FUCKING REDUCES HUMAN AGENTS INTO NOTHING MORE THAN MERE PUPPETS!!
>>740910
>>740943
>cant's answer argument
>resort to shitty memes
Instead of shit memes, let me quote scholars,
>the canonical heritage of the Church can be evaluated in various ways, with some traditions being more important than others, depending on the scale of values involved and the purposes identified.72 Hence the Creed is exceptionally useful in catechetical work; the Scriptures are useful in providing agreed texts for preaching; the Eucharist is pivotal in nurturing an intimate communion with the risen Lord; iconography is important in signifying the sanctification of matter; the writings of the Fathers are invaluable in pursuing the implications of the scriptural material and in exploring second-order questions about knowledge and language; the episcopate is vital in dealing with matters of internal order and discipline. Each element in the canonical tradition has its own place to play in the total economy of the community. To ask the sacraments, for instance, to play the role of the Scriptures is to ask for trouble; to ask the Scriptures to fulfil the role of the episcopate is absurd and ludicrous.-pg 53, Canon and Criterion in Christian theology
>>740786
LYON MENTIONNED
Justification by faith is the central biblical directive, the single most important doctrine to get right.
Christianity is the religion of divine accomplishment— Christ's finished work.
Those who trust in Jesus Christ for justification by faith alone, receive the righteousness that is reckoned to them. Those who attempt to establish their own righteousness or mix faith with works only receive the terrible wage that is due all who fall short.
>>740910
Most Protestants aren't Calvinists for exactly that matter.
>>740801
>what is the sin of presumption
>>740823
>Faith without works is dead.
Says so right there in the New Testament.
>>741160
One must also not forget though, that if your faith does not move you to do good works you probably aren't as strong in your faith as you might think.
>>741490
The thief on the cross is an example, he did no good works but Jesus said "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise" (Luke. 23:43).
No sacrament or work is required to procure salvation.
>>740786
"Born again" theology is bullshit, thats why.
>>740786
so that others can be saved.
>>741561
That is true, but if you pass a poor man on the street and refuse to help him, or anyone else in need who you cross, can you truly say that you have your faith in Jesus?
>Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” -Matthew 19:21
Now I'm not saying to sell your stuff, but do remember not to turn your faith and love into a narcissistic, self-serving thing, otherwise you will lose the path. I'm also not trying to accuse you of anything mind you, but I can sometimes be a very surface oriented person, and I have seen too many people who profess love for Jesus while spitting on everything he taught.
>>741962
Admitting you are a sinner is a justification of faith, I am not perfect and I admit it.
You guys realize Jesus, Peter, James, and Paul didn't think the world would continue on this long? Nor could Paul ever imagine all those letters he sent to encourage Christian communities to hold strong as they'd all meet Jesus in the air any-day now, being read 2000 years after his death.
>>740786
>If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.
How do you justify Sola fide in the face of
James 2:24 which states:
>You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
>>740786
if someone gives you a ticket to the best show/game in the world and tells you 'just thank me and come with' do you do it or pee on the ticket and stay home?
The Orthodox don't think you can just be baptized and then you are saved no matter what. There were plenty of people who were excommunicated and anathematized despite being baptized.
Look at Judas, do you think he was saved?
>>741222
That's the definition of sola Fide
>>741561
The thief on the Cross rebuked the other thief in the face of pain for insulting Christ. He did not just dindu nuffin idiot
>>741451
A post-hoc rationalization.
>>742392
>saying a few words in groveling servility of a megalomaniacal god is as good as a lifetime of good works, or better, since someone who does good but doesn't believe is still guilty of the one unforgivable sin
Salvation in the christian dogma, whatever denomination you pick, has little to do with morality.
>>742176
Literally the whole of James 2:14-26.
>>741160
The word for "faith" and "belief" are the same in the NT. And even demons have that, as James points out.
>>740786
Because they're good things to do?
>>740801
That's actually what quite a lot of medieval lords did.
They were knights all their life, killing, pillaging, extorting and fucking their way around, except they confessed and repented once in a while. But once they felt they were on their way out, they wrote down their will in which they gave up part of their property to the Church and spent their last few years or months as a monk with no earthly possessions. I've even seen some texts where the guy was a monk for an hour or so before dying.
>>742574
Considering christfags only do things to avoid punishment by fire, and gain eternal happiness, that's not a good enough reason.
>>742587
https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2013/03/19/st-isaac-the-syrian-the-hellish-scourge-of-divine-love/
https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/spirituality/the-kingdom-of-heaven/heaven-and-hell
>>742587
Nope. Even if you believe in sola fide, you're still supposed to imitate Christ, thus the good deeds.
>>742587
If someone is only doing good deeds to be saved, it's literally worse than going around being a giant asshole all the time and will get you nowhere.
>>742584
The commercialization of indulgences and Absolution Certificates are a black mark on the churches. Though there is nothing wrong with donating a portion of your wealth to the church after you die, just if you expect it to get you anything.
>>742608
Everyone remotely religious thinks Pascal's Wager is a stupid idea. Inauthentic faith is no faith at all. Literally every major church, even the fucking Mormons think that.
Also, Pascal considered it's logical outcome to be actual faith, that by doing everything a good christian does, you would eventually find that self-serving faith replaced with real faith down the line. Not even he bought that that just doing it for the sake of saving your skin would save you.
>>742623
>muh no true christians
>>742623
>Everyone remotely religious thinks Pascal's Wager is a stupid idea.
I'm calling this out, I've had many Christians present something like it to me.
It's the underlying idea of being "saved" and going door to door preaching, etc, Christians trying to convince you of what you should do.
>>742623
Pretty sure you will find people from every Church except the Orthodox Church bringing up Pascal's wager.
>>740837
James 2:24, nigger.
>>742024
Pretty sure Jesus knows exactly when the world is going to end bub. You know, considering the fact that he's literally God and all that.
>>742638
>I've had many Christians present something like it to me
Then they're idiots. Actually suggesting Pascal's Wager forces acceptance that God doesn't actually care about authenticity of faith. Or they're implying you'll actually fool him, both of which are dangerous and very unchristian.
>>742655
Constantine. Pls.
>>742698
>muh no true christians
>>742697
Apparently he didn't, because he promised the kingdom of heaven or whatever the fuck directly to his followers, i.e. soon after his death.
>>742693
>James 2:24
James is talking about being justified before man. James uses an example of one man trying to show his faith to another. It can't be done directly, but only through works.
All men are sinners and need God's forgiveness at some point,the man of faith will live a life pleasing to God; it will be evident in how he lives but his life will not be perfect
>>742472
I agree If you are referring to Protestants cos their God is as you described
>>742715
Except unlike Sola Fide, he does it of his own volition. He isn't mind controlled
>>740801
because the would be dishonest
>>742739
There's nothing dishonest about fearing god on your deathbed. Something christfags seem to have difficulty grasping.
>>740786
We are not, predestination doesn't exist, God judges based on our actions, dictated by our fee will.
/thread.
>>742708
>I don't have an argument so I'm going to meme
Asserting Pascal's Wager literally conflicts with Catholic theological thought at the least. It creates a problem.
>>742757
>muh no true christians
I'll just give you a hint because you're not too bright. Your interpretation of a 2000 year old book that's fit for asswiping more than anything is not, in fact, the one and only or absolutely correct interpretation.
>>742761
You want to list a single major church that holds a position of faith that wouldn't invalidate Pascal's Wager?
>>742770
>he thinks church positions matter
>at all
>whatsoever
>>742774
A single bible passage then?
>>742777
>he thinks bible passages matter
How many more goal posts you gonna move, son? The bible can be spun to say anything, that's why the prosperity church exists. I'm sure they're not real christians either. Wink wink.
A christian is someone who thinks Christ was the son of god. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm not interested in you telling me who's a real christian and who isn't. Engage an actual christfag on those points instead of ignoring every thing they say - that you ostensibly disagree with on a chinese pedo board - because they roughly share your delusions.
>>742790
We do know that Protestants can't be true Christians from history itself
>>742746
Well if you really live your live your life in sin without realising it and then genuinely see what you have done on your deathbed, then that's a different story.
However, if you consciously plan to live your life in sin, then 'trick' God into forgiving you by repenting on your deathbed, then how is that not dishonest?
>>742816
>However, if you consciously plan to live your life in sin
Every single person who lived thought he was doing the right thing, nobody "plans" to be evil. All that's required for this type of salvation is not giving it any thought before you're right about to die.
>>742790
What you're telling me is that you don't have the capacity or understanding to refute my disagreements with Pascals Wager?
Okay. Thanks for playing. You can collect your "I didn't even bother to try." Sticker on the way out.
>>742806
Nail down the definition of a true christian, and then off you go to fight the denominations that don't agree.
>>742847
True Christians given what the first Christians and even the Apostles did for one, don't into sola Scriptura as I had shown
>>742865
Yes yes, now off you go to tell those fake christians how untrue and destined for hell they are.
>>742879
Maybe after you let your brain breathe some fresh air by taking off that fedora
>>740786
Remember the teachings of Paul: justification by faith.
One who does good works may not have faith, but one with faith will find themselves naturally doing good works, possibly without even realizing it. The idea that good works are required is from James. The truth is, they are required, HOWEVER it is through the holy spirit that good works are done.
If one has the Spirit one is saved. If one has the Spirit, good works will follow. Therefore, if one has the Spirit, good works will come. Not as a requirement, not out of thought for personal gain, but as a side effect of being filled with God's Holiness.
>>740801
Read James. True heartfelt conversion doesn't take place unless you actually feel/know/whatever you did wrong. Salvation isn't "Okay, I wanna go to heaven, so I acknowledge you now." Its "Oh, I kind of did a thing that is literally against your very being. I kind of feel like dirt now. Can you help me?"
>James 2:18 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even demons believe that, and shudder.
Of course, nobody is saying it can't happen. It has and does... But if you know you should do something because it's right and don't, what does that say?
For any further arguments regarding "my Christianity is better than yours..."
YOU STUPID MOTHERFUCKERS. WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING. Seriously, have you even READ 1 Corinthians? It is ENTIRELY about idiotic divisions like this.
3:3 paraphrased to hell: "Hurr... I think James was right, so you're wrong." "Durr... Well I think Paul was right, so you're a tosser."
IT. DOES. NOT. MATTER.
Don't follow the pope. Don't follow your pastor. Don't follow your mother, your father, your elder, or your cat.
FOLLOW GOD.
The pope CAN guide you. A pastor CAN guide you. You can receive encouragement and help from any number of things. But to say your faith is better because you believe different things is COMPLETE AND TOTAL IDIOCY.
>>742938
According to Sola Fide, God mind controls you.
>all these scrubs itt
Sinning a bunch will get you naked in heaven, whereas righteussness + conversation will get you a plethora of wenches in heaven
>>740943
>"Oh you fight oppression, can I join?"
>>742387
No it isn't, most Protestants are Arminians.
>>745522
>Faith is seen as passive, merely receiving Christ and all his benefits, among which benefits are the active and passive righteousness of Jesus Christ. Christ's righteousness, according to the followers of "sola fide," is imputed (or attributed) by God to the believing sinner (as opposed to infused or imparted), so that the divine verdict and pardon of the believing sinner is based not upon anything in the sinner, nor even faith itself, but upon Jesus Christ and his righteousness alone, which are received through faith alone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide
>>740786
Doing good is it's own reward. Helping others makes us feel better about ourselves, and seeing others suffer makes us feel bad.
>mfw religiousfags think that belief in a god is a requirement to know right from wrong
>>740786
If you have to ask that question, you might not qualify as "a person zealous to do good works", i.e. the collection of people who enter into the New Covenant.
>>740801
Very risky. You don't know what tomorrow brings, much less that you will have a moment of clarity after living a life of debauchery and rebelliousness.
But don't buy the nonsense that Christians do not sin. We do. We hate it. We can't stop it now anymore than we could stop it before we were saved.
If anyone says they do not sin, they are a liar, and the truth is not in them.
--John
>>740910
Or gay furries.
>>741160
Well said. Well said.
>>741582
John 3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Yes, to the papists, what Jesus said is "bullshit".
>>741962
Jesus taught the Law.
The New Covenant is not about the Law of Moses.
>>742024
The only reason you do is hindsight.
>>742176
Easy. There is only one work, and you have to do it to be saved. Believe.
Also, James is an asshole.
Galatians 2
Now when Peter[a] had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.
14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you[b] compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law
but by faith in Jesus Christ,
even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
>>742392
Romans 10:9 gives the two things a man must do to be saved.
1. Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord
>Lord, remember me...
2. Believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead.
>...when you come into Your Kingdom.
The thief on the cross makes us all look like spoiled children.
>>745902
He also didn't into sola fide, a stupid doctrine.
Same with Paul and many scholars today notes this. It's why we got this so called 'new' perspective on Paul that completely BTFO Protestantism, alongside all the history of the Church Fathers.
The thief on the cross makes you look like a fucking retard if anything.
>>745875
And if God is just, holy, and righteous?
>>745910
I have a hard time taking gay furry emo tripfags seriously. Maybe it's just me.
>>745891
>>745902
>taking the words of a mere man as Truth
Why would God care if you believe in him? What a monumentally arrogant thing to think. He has a whole universe to run but no, what he REALLY REALLY cares about is that you believe he exists. Top cuck.
If there is a God that is all-powerful and omni-benevolent, then everyone is saved. No other conclusion is coherent.
>>745891
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Perspective_on_Paul
>>745918
It's a huge thing for God that you believe Him. Huge.
James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
God's neither busy nor overworked. Nor do you have any concept of the scope of things He does, constantly.
>>745921
old/perspective/emo/furry/gay/tripfags
>>745917
>Can't answer anything
>Hurl in ad homs with no arguments
What a fucking idiot.
Here we have a shitty Protestant who can't even keep to his own basic act of not bearing false witness.
Only idiots would be so dumb as to ignore such a simple rule.
>>745928
Fuck off moron.
>>745913
>And if God is just, holy, and righteous?
Then everyone is saved. Our finite transgressions are less than nothing to him, and he is both all-powerful and all loving.
>>745925
Nonsense. What kind of all powerful god cares if some barely sapient apes believe he exists or not? What a profoundly stupid idea.
>>745931
point out which part is false.
emo
furry
gay
tripfag
>>745941
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, finite.
Rebellion against the eternal God, finite.
Murdering the Son of God, finite.
You have fucking weird ideas of what God wouldn't consider capital crimes dude.
>>745950
The God that made human beings, in His image, and Who did not "evolve" them from apes.
>>745959
I'm only a tripfag. Now fuck off.
Protestants should be purged from the earth
>>745966
>You have fucking weird ideas of what God wouldn't consider capital crimes dude.
And you seem to believe in some kind of sadistic demon rather than any kind of god of love, dude. All those "sins" are not only imaginary, they are also finite, as by definition anything and everything humans do or can do is.
>>745971
Your god looks like a human? Haha, that's hilarious. He should get together with that Hindu elephant god, they could form a band.
>>740786
Jesus died for my sins, therefore I'm exempt from reconcilliation
>>745612
Arminians do not hold to Luther or Calvin's view on free will, but they do not reject sola fide, but instead reject sola gratia (although Calvanists would say that to reject sola gratia is to reject sola fide). This position does not differ much from the Catholic view of faith and works, but to Arminians, faith alone is what saves a person, and not the faith of man, but the faith that God places in man. Arminians believe however, that man must be willing to accept God's grace to be saved.
>>746312
So the faith is not of the man yet the man somehow chooses. That by definition is impossible and is simply just contradictory. After all, how the fuck can I accept something if I have no faith in it! This means by definition, God is still mind fucking the person.
>>747427
First I must make clear that what I am going to write is my own understanding of Arminianism it probably won't be a perfect explanation for I am not a Theologian, and to complicate matters, different Protestant denominations can have differing ideas on what Arminianism even is.
The simplest way to put it is God is constantly attempting to pursue a relationship with us. It is this pursuit that allows a human to choose God. As the Holy Spirit comes and goes throughout a person's life, they are given the opportunity to accept it or reject it. In those times when we get a small taste of true faith, we can either make the choice to accept it and enter a relationship with God, or reject it and continue in sin.
>>747535
You already said that God implants the faith into the person. Why would I even give assent to someone unless I have faith in him? If I don't trust someone, I won't bother to follow him. It's that simple. So either the person is really the one who have faith of his own volition or God is simply a puppet. Your explanation of Sola Fide is despite your affirmation of free will one where the person is mind controlled by God. After all that faith isn't of one's own will but God's. Sola Fide teaches this and even teaches that your own faith won't do anything by its definition. It's all on God. So even if the Holy Spirit is there, it is altering the person's volition so that the person chooses God, not of his own will of course. After all, that faith didn't come from you but God
>>747545
Except you can reject the Holy Spirit and many do. I have personally heard a friend talk about a time where it was obvious God was trying to get their attention, but in that moment they decided to reject it because they didn't see it as rational.
>>747566
That's contradictory to God mind controlling the person by making them have faith. It's illogical. Your antedoctal experiences doesn't change this fact. After all, it is embedded in the very definition of Sola Fide itself!
>>747620
This is a fight that Calvanists and Arminianist have been having for hundreds of years and it's perfectly logical and mind control free. God gives you the faith and you say no, simple as that.
Also the anecdotal evidence wasn't being used to prove Arminiansm is correct, but to show how it works.
>>747641
You don't say yes unless you have faith or trust. If that faith or trust is not of the person, it is from God which entails Divine mind control. How it works according to you is contradictory to its premises and its obligations to Sola Fide. Calcinists are the most logical one here in the debate since they are consistent. All others are just pussies.
>>742746
If you live all your life thinking you can trick God and also believing God doesn't know that - you can't really call yourself a believer.
>>747688
I love how you're talking like this is the only option. You might not think about it at all, and see the light later. Or you might delude yourself in various ways, and only then turn around.
>>747748
It's true tho, the statement was: oh you can just trick God - live all your life knowing God will forgive you in the last second and by some miraculous mechanism have the strenght to be 100% honest in the moment of death to let go in the hands of God.
Such things are childish ideas fashioned by people with 0 faith or interest in understanding how Christians conceptualize the teachings...
You can't genuinely say you believe in God if you believe you can trick God - it's just a way for you to trick other people around you in letting themselves getting manipulated by you.
I'm talking from the perspective of someone who believes in God and puts Him above himself and everything else. Of course there is no other way around this.
>>747646
It all has to do with prevenient grace. Basically, you cannot truly exercise your free will without divine intervention. In these moments you can put your faith in God, because it is the true faith granted by God, but it is still something that you personally have control of. You and Calvinists would argue that this isn't actually sola fide while Arminianists would argue it is.
This is an argument that has been going on for almost 400 years and I doubt a conclusive ending is going to be reached on a Cambodian shadow puppetry board.
Firstly you have to define what's good and what's not.
>>747783
That still leaves the believer free to choose. And let's not forget, Arminus appropriated from Molinism to do this. Either way this opposes Sola Fide since such a concept merely gives the believer the ability to choose. Faith therefore under this is still under the volition of the individual. Kinda destroys Sola Fide and thus makes it incompatible or contradictory.
>>747846
>That still leaves the believer free to choose.
That's the point.
>And let's not forget, Arminus appropriated from Molinism to do this.
Nobody cares.
>Either way this opposes Sola Fide since such a concept merely gives the believer the ability to choose. Faith therefore under this is still under the volition of the individual. Kinda destroys Sola Fide and thus makes it incompatible or contradictory.
Arminianists think that Arminianism is compatible with sola fide.
>>747896
You didn't answer anything. Arminianism is just contradictory when we see that the individual's will to believe is caused by God rather than of the individual's volition. That idea after all is embedded in Sola Fide
>>740910
>mere puppets
Pretty much what we are. Free will is an illusion stemming from consciousness.
>>747993
Define illusion - define consciousness.
Give us links to scientific studies that prove your point.
