/his/, why is alt-history so bad? Is it the autistic authors, the shitty education, or the concept of the "art" itself?
>>911078
Because the people who come up with alt history usually have a really lose concept of history or how nations work, so their scenarios usually fall apart with just a little logic applied.
90% of alt history is DUDE WHAT IF LMAO
>>911078
authors set out trying to reach a goal instead of creating the scenario and letting it play out naturally. Like in that shitty "Man in the High Castle" alternate history where the guy had the axis win and continue holding on to it's conquered territories and create Atlantropa without ever analyzing the ramifications. Especially with Atlantropa, the ecological and environmental disaster would be unlike ever seen on earth, seeing that the complete evaporation of an entire sea would take place over centuries. For starters, the entirety of all the mediterrainean countries and North Africa and the levant would be added to the Sahara desert, killing hundreds of millions. The economic and agricultural effects would be equally horrifying.
>>911078
There's a lot of bad AH out there, but alternatehistory.com tends to actually have good stuff.
>>911100
They also like to liberally throw around outdated institutions in modern scenarios. A good 150% of modern-ish Alternate History is either monarchist of fascist wank.
Why not just run a session of Europa Universalis and not interact with it?
Boom, done and done.
>>911078
I'd say it's the ignorance of history, geography and geopolitics, and a lot of personal biases.
And I wouldn't say all alternate history, more like a small portion.
>>911078
It's everything. Most of alternative history is "muh purdy maps like in muh Swedish DLC simulators" and/or "muh historical revanchism for manchildren".
To be fair, however, I'm now sure how one can even make intelligent alternative history scenario because pretty much every singe historical event had several factors going for it, and alternating even one creates butterfly effect of huge proportions with tons of facts having to be accounted for.
>>912641
>muh purdy maps
They really do get purdy, just don't try looking for them on 4chan. A Vicky base map does not a good map make.
>>911078
Like 47% of all such threads are about something happening and Germany winning WII, 30% are about something happeing and Germany winning WWI, then there is a significant number about Byzantine Empire susbsisting/Muslims getting rekt.
That should give you a small clue about why they suck.
>>912742
Don't go looking for althist on 4chan. This should be a written rule.
>>912641
This a million times. It takes 30 pages to describe the factors leading to up to a minor historical event and that is when you are being brief for the sake of brevity. Merely the historical cultural environment in which the entire narrative is wrapped is already completely different from our current way of thinking.
>>911078
Dunno, Kaiserreich is pretty fucking good
>>913165
>kaiserreich
>good
>china owned by a german industrial company
>UK run by commies
>india neatly divided into three ideologically incompatible factions with no regard for religious division or caste etc etc
>napoleon can take power in north africa
this is what retards actually believe
>>913169
Everything except india is plausible
>>913174
>germany having the force projection to conquer one of the most populous states in the world after fighting the most cataclysmic, damaging war in the world
>any bonerfart being given a chance at ruling anything after nappy 3rd getting removed due to embarrassment
alt-history tards proving they know nothing again
stick to paradox games
>>913187
Nationalist France isn't ruled by a bonaparte, though
And Germany didn't conquer it alone, they assisted the Kuomintang, then signed a treaty with the renewed Qing empire to split china between themselves.
>>911078
It's because alt history can't ever be or feel 100% genuine. I always get this scratching feeling in my head when I see these maps and fanfics.
I mean:
>Lap tribes when a scandinavian empire exists next to them
>le I just changed ONE letter on Romania
>I'm just going to pull some names out of my ass
>Steppe republic
>Arctic Empire
>>911078
Because 9 times out of 10, they start with
>This map would look really cool, how do I get here?
Rather than the more sane notion of taking real history, changing one or two things, and seeing how it plays out.
If you want to do "good" alt-his, if such a thing even exists, keep it small. Don't expect to change the entire course of history by tweaking one man.
>>911315
Except new cultures, languages, forces and nations don't take form or appear in the game. When it happens it's scripted after what actually happened.
Alt history isn't bad per se, but most alt history fiction pretty much operates on the principle of "let's change one event while all the other events remain pretty much the same", not realizing all the events are interconnected. See Stirling and his Draka Domination series, that guy is an absolute fucktard.
>>913165
It's good as far as silly map games go, yes.
If it's implausible, alt history isn't worth it,
unless you're trying to make sales and please plebs (hint, you usually are. Intellectual novels don't sell like Harry Potter).
Or unless you just prioritize your allegory/message over accuracy.
If it's plausible, then try it, but be careful.
Otherwise just go balls to the wall creative with it and write fantasy/sci fi that is as much like the Earth as you need it to be.
I much prefer historical fiction where we just get some anonymous peasant's perspective of some real thing.
Or magical realism like Pan's Labyrinth.
>>911078
Because autists have a tendency to take a complex chaotic world, oversimplify it, then assume people know what they are thinking when they feel the need to share their deluded views with everyone.
>>915357
this was clearly made by a weeb
>>911306
I hate that fucking place.
It's a bunch of centrist-moderate circle-jerking. The minute you say that the Reign of Terror might have been a good idea, or that colonialism might have had one or two benefits, banned.
>>915848
>It's a bunch of centrist-moderate circle-jerking.
I don't know, only to an extent. A lot of big names were banned for saying something wrong (in Ian's eyes).
>>915831
More like someone who doesn't know/care about nice borders.
>>915569
I'd say being an autist - at least one of those smart ones - would actually be an advantage when writing althist. One would think such a person would not oversimplify his work, quite on the contrary.
>>911078
"realistic" alt history seems pointless when real history exists
most alt-history authors are too serious and devoted to the facade of realism to create truly odd and fantastical timelines
also, as a rule, alt-history NEVER gets the balkans correct, its almost comical
>>917841
they never get the caucasus right either. fucking lightweights
>>911078
Everyone has bias, whether it's grosse Germania or France to the rhine
>>915357
>le axis victory
>>918028
The best kind of wank, tbqh.
>>912889
niceone
>>918941
I appreciate your positive comment, Myrna. I've got loads more.
>>911078
>nomadic samis conquering anything
>ever
no offence to the samis, but in no freak timeline would a bunch of namadic reindeer herders ever be organised enough to hold that much land next to a bunch of countries who have been taking turns beating each other's asses for the majority of history.
>>911275
This is it really. It's a field absolutely riddled with confirmation bias. Some will go so far out of their way to make their alt history theories plausible that its idiocy makes sonic the hedgehog fanction look tame.
>>911078
I want to make an alt history mod for V2 give me a good book
>>919015
I can't give you books but I can give you maps for inspiration. They may be out of the time frame in some cases, though.
>>919036
>Volhynia
>Half of Polesia and Podolia
>Uniates
triggered
>>919042
Let me trigger you some more, Florence.
You know I should come up with an alt his for this map I made. It'd be pretty memey.
>>917651
their analysis of the real world is oversimplified, they then use this inaccurate view of the world as the basis for their convoluted fantasies which as you say can be very complex though often have dubious foundations
normies do the opposite, drawing too much from the real world, creating what are essentially copies of real world civilizations or popular tropes
Ideally you want the autists to look outwards and analyze the real world to aspy extremes then apply all their insightful ideas and conclusions to a "what if" or another world, sticking to rules grounded in the real world
>>911100
I wouldn't say that, Harry Turtledove is a legit historian but his prose style is awful and the thesis behind all his work seems to be history always follows the same course no matter what you change.
>>911275
In that story the mediterranean isn't dammed off then allowed to evaporate, it's intentionally drained, but he doesn't give details because that isn't his point at all. Maybe they destroyed half the world or maybe it was one geoproject among several that change the climate and landscape in multiple ways, the only point the author wants to convey to his readers is they carried out their big crazy idea.
I bet if Rome survived into the modern era I bet it would be pretty cool.
What if 9/11 never happened?
>>919140
WW2 and ISIS would probably still happen tbqh.
>>919112
>Harry Turtledove is a legit historian
Holy shit really?
Jesus fucking Christ, I would expect a historian writing alt-his would base historic turning points beyond WHAT IF X WON THIS BATTLE.
I always considered HT as babby tier alt-history but holy shit I never knew he was a historian.
>>911275
To be fair, Atlantropa was a legit project at the beginning of the 20th century and Dick was no geographer/climatologist etc.
>>919036
I was thinking about the one in the which the gunpowder plot is successful, it was even release as a paradox euiv dlc
>>919284
That could be interesting.
>>913165
Entertaining, yes
>>913165
Pretty sure they control just part of China. Kind of like Europeans did historically, except obviously larger. Not saying it's very plausible but it's not like they control the whole thing. Also quite noteably it tends to fall apart.
And Napoleon pretty much never takes over unless the player chooses for him to do so. There are pretty much countless silly options for the player in Kaiserreich. By default, France is still a republic.
>>911275
The point of Man in the High Castle isn't the alt-history itself, it's the trippy bullshit regarding parallel realities and ontological and personal uncertainty.
>>919219
>taehanese vassals
>other side of the fucking himalayas
>>912655
>A Vicky base map does not a good map make.
>>919237
He was focused on ERE studies.
>>911078
Because Giant Nazi laser-shooting robots invading US mainland is more [spoiler]fun[/spoiler] than Napoleon being born a minute later because his dad ate grapes instead of eggs before fugging
>>919056
I love it.
Does anyone remember what that one Alt History was where the An-Lushan rebellion doesn't happen?
The best timelines are the ones that include fantasy elements.
Also I must say most GURPS scenarios are way better than the average alt-hist at working out all the ramifications of the changes.
>>919377
>I used a word I don't understand again, mom!
>>919414
>idank Grobgermonium province
That looks too detailed to be a Vicky base map, to be honest. On the other hand, this one doesn't have the Vicky provinces left in, as opposed to most of the maps made here on the imageboards. Those truly are unbearable.
Is the Draka Dominion series worth reading?
Because you need PhD level of knowledge in your specialization to be able to realistically figure out what could have happened in just that specialization. Most alt. histories are made by people without that level of knowledge and on broad sweeping scales
Do you guys think the Years of Rice and Salt was good? I enjoyed it
>>920021
>hat looks too detailed to be a Vicky base map, to be honest.
I added the poles and more details to it myself
i like to keep shit pretty simple
>>920996
This is not /tg/
>>920996
Wtf i'm looking at ?
>>921015
alt history is a joke on /tg/
They don't care about anything that isn't a quest, magical realm shit, or thinly veiled bait
>>920996
What the fuck is this mega-Ukraine thing?
>>920936
I see, nice edit.
>>920996
This is why I said using the Vicky base map is bad.
>>923001
Well yes, the Vicky province shapes put a lot of restrictions on the map. And really, I don't understand you people who use the Vicky base map - that's just too much hassle. Use something like the map I provided.
>>923001
Or, if you prefer a smaller base map, here's another useful and often used one.
>>923001
>Soviet
That's even more confusing.
>>922991
That's a good base map but the borders could do with some work. Also, what's the setting?
Alternative history doesn't work because everyone wants the best case of scenario for their nation.
Like, its interesting to think about what it would be if Hungary could had kept their mostly pretty justifiable borders from WW2, but most people from the start want a huge Great-Hungary on the map.
>>923035
Red: African-Greeks
Olive: Umbric empire
Purple: Macedon
Light Brown: Minoans
Dark Green: Iberian Greeks
Blue: Israel
Yellow: Egypt
Light Purple: Macedon vassals
>>923044
A surviving Minoan civilisation would have a huge impact on the development of the area. One would probably not be able to speak of Greeks and Macedons.
>>923067
The minoans were not greeks, they are not indo-european
>>923093
I know but the Greek tribes mixed with the native population on the Aegean coast. There really is no way to have both a Minoan state that encompasses Crete and Pelopponese as well as Greek states all over the Mediterranean.
>>911078
>kingdom of constanta
>Doesn't even have constanta in it.
Here's a bump while I'm working on a map of my own.
What if the slavs never settled in the Balkans?
>>923615
Lasting world peace
Alt-history is essentially applied historical analysis, which is important to see how similar situations might play out in our own time. For instance, if the Germans were not forced into the terrible Treaty of Versailles, Hitler would have had no platform to run on, and Prussia could have existed to this day. So in this alternate scenario, there was never a second world war or holocaust, and the soviet union would have had another western enemy to weaken it. So in future we can either apply this or not. We haven't learned. Toppling the stable governments in Libya and Iraq had led to ISIS, much as toppling the Kaiser led to the Nazi party. If we kept the stable regimes in, this could have been avoided. That's what alt-history is, applied analysis of history.
A lot of the people who make the scenarios just do it by rule of cool. That is to say, they have an end-game they want that is completely impossible or so comically absurd that they can't possibly devise a realistic scenario where it happens. For example, I quit an alternate history RP I was in not long ago because the OP was wanking his countries to make:
1) A female Prussian Kaiser conquer all of Germany and Austria BY 1795(!)
2) The Egyptian Bey conquer all of Arabia and North Africa, leaving the Ottomans as a rump state, in 1774.
I tried to make him explain how any of this could possibly happen, and he couldn't provide any excuse that wasn't gamey, then he would complain when I took Crimea from the Ottomans with my Russian Empire. The double standard was absurd, and it was solely because it didn't fit into his end-game.
Basically, you should never start with an end-game in-mind. You should start with the change, and work out what could _realistically_ happen from there.
Pic related, it is what the OP wanted the world to look like in 1821(!), and was basically the final straw for me.
>>923653
I presume the coloured in countries are the ones controlled by the people partaking in the game. What exactly is that light blue thing supposed to be?
Anyway, here's a little something I've been working on for a while now, on and off. There really isn't much backstory to it (I was working off of an old Alternate History forum challenge); it's more of an experiment or practice. The basic idea is an Axis victory that leads to a nuclear war and the map is set several decades after the events. I mostly did it to see what a map with a lot of little statelets would look like. The white countries are neutral and the gray ones are countries with their old fascist rulers.
>>923712
Yes. It was supposed to be Cossacks, which I had as a sort of vassal (someone had wanted to be Cossacks, and we had a compromise that I thought was fine).
The OP eventually wanted to have his Egypt rule all the way to the Congo.
>>911275
MIHC is straight up fiction.
>>923795
Makes for some comfy maps, though.
>>924521
No, they either have only national borders, no borders at all or both national borders and subdivisions.
>>924521
Here's the latest one I have.
The only thing that I like about The Draka is the fan versions because >Muh Slavery
>>924561
>that goddamn Kazakh border
>>924521
Hell, here's the last one for the night. I will most likely never use it but it's the only base map I've seen that has naval borders and it looks very nice.
>>924567
>every time
>all those Murricans making maps with a huge Nazi Germany
whelp
>>911078
alt-history maps make me sick to my stomach. Its not about the historical impossibilities they come up with but the ascetics are hideous.
Pic-kinda unrelated, Its trinity bloods Catholic post-apocalypse map of Europe.
How the fuck does Man in the High Castle make any sense? Do people actually believe that world domination meme?
>>924633
>>all those Murricans making maps with a huge Nazi Germany
>>924671
>map from some Asian cartoons
Yeah, makes me sick to the stomach, too.
What would happen if Leon and Southern Ireland united in the 11th century and stayed united?
All the good AH is in Russian
>>911078
A lot of it is very shallow, or exists for nationalism. I only like it when it's either clearly meant as fluffy speculative fiction or based on rock solid historical evidence.
>>912655
Do you have that "great clusterfuck" map with like 500 countries on it?
>>931670
You mean this one: >>923035?
>>932305
Yeah thanks. Is that map the one based on the world dream bank's Jaredia?
>>932305
Actually no wait it had even more countries than that.
I love those maps though. I think my favorite alt his scenarios are the ones where they create bizarre maps and try to see how it would have gotten that way, maybe /his/ should play that game.
>>933401
>not The Formerly United States of America
>>913350
Someone should fix that.
>>911078
>Republic of Tolyatti
What the fuck? When and how did it become relevant? Speaking nothing of the fact the city was called after an Italian 20th century Communist.
>>934706
(Yes, that triggered me the most, even if the map was probably intended to be humorous)
Also the fuck is this new captcha, is this a late Fools Day joke?
>>933478
>>933484
Indeed, I believe it's Jaredia. I hear the original website with Jaredia and the other maps has gone down, sadly.
Do you know what period the map you're thinking of represented?
>>911078
A few reasons:
History itself isn't always particularly interesting at all points. Logical, possible happenings don't always make for the best what-if scenarios, because sometimes they can lead to more boring events. For instance: "The whites won the Russian revolution, cast out the reds, Russian Empire stagnated and remained irrelevant in world politics. The end." It's a logical consequence and possibility, but it doesn't actually make for that great of a story beyond the event itself.
Second, history itself is extremely vast and interconnected, and on top of which, we don't always have a 100% exact recollection of events. Add that in with the limited knowledge the vast majority of most fiction writers have, and you have something very quickly devolving into either a dry retelling of possible events or a fantastical guess at something so improbable or downright impossible that it makes it difficult to take seriously.
I think the best alt history will be created once AIs are strong enough to extrapolate all events within a system. At that point, it will be a matter of generating all possible divergent points within history and culling any of the more boring ones.
>>934952
>For instance: "The whites won the Russian revolution, cast out the reds, Russian Empire stagnated and remained irrelevant in world politics. The end." It's a logical consequence and possibility, but it doesn't actually make for that great of a story beyond the event itself.
Tbh familia the whole Commie revolutionaries winning the war and consequently dominating half the entire world was probably from someones laughably childish althistory in an alternate reality.
>>913347
But that's precisely the problem, especially if you go far enough back. One small, seemingly insignificant change can cause a torrent of bullshit beyond what we can realistically calculate.
>>934992
>especially if you go far enough back
But you wouldn't go 2000 years back to write althis about 200 years ago.
So that point is kinda moot.
Unless your althis spans across all the 1800 years.
>>934984
>All alt history events have actually occurred in some parallel universe.
>Meanwhile, somewhere else, our own world history is being mocked as entirely implausible.
>We're all actually all part of a massive parallel simulation in which developers clone the situation and tweak one or two details at various points.
>>935021
My point was your job gets harder based on how far back the event you want to change is. If you change the winner of the American presidential race to Ron Paul in 2012, you've only got about four years worth of events to change, plus some of the preceeding events to allow him victory. If you want to change the spoken language of England to German in 600 AD, you've got a far longer list of changes to make leading up to that point followed by 1400 years of history to reconcile.
The problem is, some of the most interesting changes are the furthest reaching ones.
>>935023
>so you mean to tell me that this one guy
>this one guy
>this guy takes Weimar Germany
>after the Versailles
>right before the Marxist takeover
>during the economic crisis
>hyperinflation
>and summons the will and strength required to avert the KPD rise?
>and subsequently magically unites all Germans under one flag despite it going against the interests of literally every major power?
>and then occupies all of mainland Europe except for a couple of neutral states and allies?
>yeah right, at least retain a modicum of realism or else nobody can take your shit seriously
>what next hahah
>Europe starts paying everyone who crosses their borders? hahaahh, sign me up into your world
>>911078
It isn't terrible, its fun philosophy until you start sperging stupid stuff on it.
>>935033
As I said, it only matters if your althistory lasts for a longass time, which IMO is gonna be shit.
Small changes which get discussed in detail in a relatively short timeframe makes for the best althis. Kinda like geopolitical speculation.
>>935094
Oh, I see what you mean. I took the idea of alt-history and assumed it was carrying on for a significant amount of time after the changed events, while you focused just on the events changed themselves. That makes sense from what you're saying.
>>911078
because the authors have no creativity and either make ridiculous stuff like the empire of angola or they add their own autistic fantasy nations that have uninteresting and cliche histories
generally most stuff alt history is very bad and the people making it have a hilariously bad understanding of how countries actually function (pic related is a good example), although there is nothing inherently wrong with alt his
>>935144
>I took the idea of alt-history and assumed it was carrying on for a significant amount of time after the changed events
That is essentially
>>935021
>Unless your althis spans across all the 1800 years.
If you, say, make an althis about the Eastern Rome falling and the Western Rome remaining, but write about what the modern world would look like, your althis would essentially still last for all the time starting from the changes made up to the current time. It's just that you're not focusing for the intermediate time as much as the 'final' product.
>>935154
Is Man In The High Castle any good, laughable alt history aside?
>>919084
>Vlaanderen and frans-vlaanderen not being one...
TRYGGYRYD
>>923039
>pretty justifiable
Have a read on what they did the second they got to take over, especially in Transylvania. I bet you the gyppos would have fucking glassed Budapest in 45 if the Soviets hadn't reined them in
>>919084
>theodoro
Biutiful
>>935154
The map is missing the random independent strip of land going down across the Rockies. Wouldn't want the Axis controlling the whole country since that would be unrealistic.
>>935168
>It's just that you're not focusing for the intermediate time as much as the 'final' product.
That's the problem with a lot of the alternate timelines. The author chooses a point of divergence far back in history and starts writing about the "present", ignoring that the farther back you go, the more the world would change.
>>919084
That's impressive, but it's a shame you forgot to give the right of self-determination to the oppressed Jasz and Cuman minorities in Hungary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jászság
>>935384
>the more the world would change.
You don't know though.
It may.
But it may not, too.
>>913330
>germanic mercenary and legionaries.osprey
>>935414
I mean sure, it depends on the point of divergence and the changeitself - but the majority of the divergences I've seen were always such that there would have to be a bigger impact on future development.
>>935485
>there would have to be a bigger impact on future development.
It may not.
Here's one I'm working on.
my problem with most alternative history is that they just take one battle or event and use it to turn one country into a superpower. I like "balanced" and multipolar worlds more but there're not as common unfortunately
It's why kaiserreich is so good, there's something going on in pretty much every corner of the world
Lux invicta is pretty good too, I think the author had a phd in history or something. it's timeline where pretty much every ancient culture and religion survived into the 11th century without completely displacing the newer ones like Islam and Catholicism, in fact many of the religions available in Europe are weird mixes between Christianity and older European cults.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/lux-invicta-the-katabasis.623529/
>>935923
How did Texas come about without America?
>>935505
How exactly can alternate history write of alternate events happening at one point of time if nothing change before that point in time and the point of divergence?
>>920996
>slavery still legal in 1925 US
what a kek
>>911078
And your map is suposed to be good?
