To what is Book of Revelation exactly correlated? Did John of Patmos thought of Rome and Roman authorities when writing it?
>>715350
>he thinks the Apocalypse of St. John is allegorical
>>715358
>he thinks it isn't
It is correlated to future events of inevitable second coming of Christ and also to past events where emperor Nero is the Antichrist and prophet The beast from the earth has also been interpreted as the Islamic prophet Muhammed is beast.
>>715358
>>715370
>2016
>Not seeing the relation between revelation and politics as one which transcends but also includes the time in which an account was written down
Next you'll tell me that the Book of Daniel is *only* a metaphor and not intended as an account of part of Israel's history containing theological, political, and historical information, all reflecting itself in the mirror of Truth
The problem is that every generation thinks it's speaking exactly about their time
>>715350
found this interpetation interesting:
Using the...system in Hebrew of generating a number from the letters of a name, Neron Caesar written in Hebrew produces the number 666. Thus, in the Bible, 666 may have been a coded reference to Nero the Roman Emperor from 55 to 68 AD. -wiki
so it was an encypted message that nero was going to slaughter christians, which he did.
but this>>715393 really
>>715372
>1400 years
>world is still functioning
>man already in space
>Muh biblical analogies
Shut up retard
>>715488
No, 6 is a number representing rebellion and sin (since when man fell from Paradise, he had to work six days) in the the OT. 66 is also the number of books that are in the Protestant Bible.
>>715350
It's very well organized. John goes to the third heaven in the spirit and is told to write of what was, what is, and what will be.
So the first part is what was, then there are seven letters to seven churches for John to deliver, and then what will be, in the future.
John of Patmos is John the Beloved Apostle. And while he identified the Antichrist as one being like the current rulers, and the Whore of Babylon being Rome, the fulfillment of the Revelation of Christ Jesus takes place in our future.
When Jesus said that some standing with Him there would not taste death until they saw the Son coming in glory, He was talking about John. John picked up a reputation for living forever; for not being able to die. In fact, he was exiled because his execution was botched, one way or the other.
But John the beloved, in 95 AD, saw our future unfolding, and wrote to tell us that Jesus wins.
>>715393
>>715488
Let me see if I understand your point.
Christians go through similar tribulations in their lives, and look forward to the second coming of Jesus. But because they are doing what Jesus told them to do, they were wrong, and therefore, all christians who believe this, past present and future, are wrong.
Is that your inference?
>>715501
6 is the number of man, numbnuts. made on Day 6.
The Great Beast = America
The Whore of Babylon = Europa
>>715512
The Beast is more than America; it is the entire world, divided into 10 parts, collected together by the False Prophet, and handed to the Antichrist, who usurps three kings to be the world ruler.
The number of his name, the antichrists, will be the same number as the number of Nero, 666 in Hebrew gematria.
Nero however, unless he is resurrected, will not be the antichrist Daniel and John wrote about.
>>715510
6 is also the number of enslavement, it represents endless toil. 7 is the number of reprieve and salvation. But of course, the Antichrist *is* a man, not Satan, since it says, "it is the number of a man"
>>715512
The Whore of Babylon is the Vatican, Babylon identified as Rome, and Mystery Babylon as Roman Catholicism.
For a while, the Whore rides the Beast, but then the antichrist turns on the Whore and kills her. Rome will be destroyed by fire from the sky, in less than 10 years.
>>715515
If the Antichrist had a contemporary reference, it was Bar Kokha. People actually though Bar Kokhba was the Messiah, and he viciously slaughtered Christians.
>>715517
7 is the number of perfection and completion.
I don't know where you're getting your information from, but it's not biblical. When we're talking about numbers in the bible, the bible says what they mean.
>>715530
True. They even changed the Jewish calendar to try to force the Daniel prophecy to apply to him. He was the type of Messiah they wanted; they wanted another Jude the Hammer.
They got Jesus instead, and murdered Him.
Look into what they did in the third century to the Jewish calendar. They compressed the time of the Babylonian empire 151 years, and the time of the Persian empire 92 years, so that the Jewish calendar is 243 years off. It's not 5776, like thy say it is. It's 6019.
>>715543
The length of Bar Kokhba's reign is more in accord with Revelations as well
>>715550
He's just another false messiah, not the antichrist.
>"Bar Kokhba" meaning "Son of the Star" in Aramaic, from the Star Prophecy verse from Numbers 24:17: "There shall come a star out of Jacob".
The magi followed that star to Bethlehem in 6 BC.
>The name Bar Kokhba does not appear in the Talmud but in ecclesiastical sources.
Interest waning.
>Rabbinical writers subsequent to Rabbi Akiva did not share Rabbi Akiva's estimation of ben Kosiva. Akiva's disciple, Yose ben Halaphta, in the Seder 'Olam (chapter 30) called him "bar Koziba" (Hebrew: בר כוזיבא), meaning, "son of the lie".
kek
I can agree to that. Rome demolished his little fiefdom, and Israel was no more until 1948.
>>715562
Judging by Justin Martyr's (a contemporary) account, he was a pretty horrendous person to Christians.
>>715569
Kind of goes along with being a false messiah. Kind of like how being horrific to Jews goes along with being a false christian.
He was tripping on shrooms. It could be both allegorical and literal for all we know.
>>715572
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicut_Judaeis
Some of the events in revelation might be symbolic but for the most part they are going to literally happen
This verse which pretty much sums it up is referred to 4 or 5 times throughout the rest of the bible
Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Just as Jesus went up in a cloud when he ascended to heaven, he will come back the same way
>>715578
Yes, exactly.
Catholics are not Christians.
>>715572
Romans 2:28-29
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
There's no Jew or Gentile before God
>>715587
In what way? They profess a belief in Jesus Christ as savior and an aspect of God. If you say the Catholics are not Christian, you might as well just stop reading the Bible, as the Church of Rome were the ones who put it together in the first place.
>>715587
Looks like you didn't actually read the article. Or you're Martin Luther
>>715589
If by "before God" you mean "born again Christians are neither Jew nor Gentile", then you are correct.
Every man appears before God.
>>715606
The Synod of Hippo was actually what ordered the Canon.
>>715350
>exactly correlated
That's not how apocalyptic works as a genre.
>>715606
They don't, actually. They just do what is necessary to join the Catholic church.
The devil could "profess a belief in Jesus Christ as savior", yes? Is he saved?
And if anyone thinks Jesus is only an aspect of God, they do not know Jesus, and He does not know them.
The bible was written, disseminated, compiled, and in existence literally hundreds of years before the Romans put together their canon. Centuries. So no. We owe papists nothing.
Wresting the bible out of their evil claws was the best thing humanity ever did.
>>715519
And if it doesn't, how is this going to affect your faith?
>>715616
That's what I meant, yeah
When we appear before God the only thing that matters if we accept Christ as our savior. Not our ethnicity
>>715628
>The devil could "profess a belief in Jesus Christ as savior", yes? Is he saved?
Guess faith alone doesn't justify you
>>715628
>The bible was written, disseminated, compiled, and in existence literally hundreds of years before the Romans put together their canon.
Idiot.
>>715610
I read "papal" and "bull", and decided it was catholic nonsense.
Martin Luther, also a catholic, wrote the vile "on the Jews and their Lies", which of course inspired Hitler, another catholic.
When I say catholics are evil, I mean evil. Not different, not out of touch, not misguided, but pure evil.
Satan can masquerade as an angel of light.
So can his ministers.
>>715610
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicut_Judaeis
The first bull was issued in about 1120 by Calixtus II and was intended to protect Jews. It was prompted by the First Crusade, during which over five thousand Jews were slaughtered in Europe.
So, slaughter Jews by the thousands, admittedly, and then get credit for putting out a bull saying they should not be slaughtered. By you. And your followers.
Likely in the hundreds of thousands, not thousands.
Brilliant evil.
>>715637
How is it nonsense?
>>715637
You are blind.
>>715637
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dcpVrtv2t-M
>>715648
>Likely in the hundreds of thousands
more like in the millions, if not hundreds of billions.
>>715651
He's just our resident Proddie shitposter. The Lutheran equivalent of Wolfsheim and Constantine, easily recognizeable despite lack of trip.
You should bring up how shit the KJV is and watch him explode. I don't really have the time to bait him right now.
>>715648
The people slaughtering Jews literally broke into Churches (where many Jews went for sanctuary) to kill them against the wishes of bishops. These people were not lead and financed by the Church, they were mainly financed and lead by people like Count Emicho
Something you guys should really look into is how Jesus has fulfilled the first 4 Jewish feasts out of 7
The next three that will happen directly correlate to the main events in Revelation
Next on the list is th Feast of Trumpets
>>715628
>The bible was written, disseminated, compiled, and in existence literally hundreds of years before the Romans put together their canon. Centuries. So no. We owe papists nothing.
There is zero factual evidence for that. The first wide spread "Christian" bibles were ordered by Constantine, before then Biblical canon varied wildly based on geography. It took hundreds of years before canon was solidified into the forms we see today in Protestantism, Catholicism, and Orthodoxy.
>>715655
>the "I love you" sign is illuminarti santaism!!
You know what the word lucifer means in latin, right?
>>715687
Yes, I already know all the arguments
I put the information out there anyway for people to decide for themself
>>715667
>bring up how shit the KJV is
I've heard the opposite, that it's the best English translation, and it's usually my go to since I don't know Latin or Greek/Hebrew.
Why is it bad?
>>715649
Step 1: Slaughter Jews.
Step 2: Publish paper saying you should protect Jews.
Nonsense.
When the catholics got to Jerusalem, they rounded up hundreds of Jews in a synagogue, and burned the building down around their ears.
It's pure evil.
>>715651
It's right out of the bible.
2 Corinthians
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
>Note "transforming themselves into apostles", which is futile, and exactly what catholics do.
And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
>>715659
Death toll of people murdered by the Vatican is at least 58,000,000. Mostly Christians, Jews, and natives.
>>715738
Or maybe the Catholic Church is an old, sprawling organization that has had many changes in opinion and ideology over it's history in both the overall organization and individuals within it.
Guess it's easier to paint with broad strokes though. I wonder what Jesus would have to say about that.
>>715733
It isn't shit, it's actually the best
>>715684
This is the most accurate account of the formation of the Canon.
>>715674
Martin Luther, like Hitler, was a catholic, and remained so.
Do you even know your own evil history?
>>715724
bullshit
You disseminate propaganda, disinformation and half-truths that you hope people will swallow without thought, to mislead and usurp their reason for the express purpose of an end that you deep down know is reflected by your vile and dishonest methods.
The best liar is the one who thinks he's telling the truth.
>>715684
The 66 books of the bible were finished in 95 AD.
Constantine came about centuries later.
>>715733
Orthodox here: it's not bad. It's not perfect, but the main reason Catholics hate it is because it comes from the CoE.
Next to the Orthodox Bible (of which only the NT is completed), it's generally the preferred version for Orthodox Christians. It has Protestant bias (for example, in regard to verses with Mary, such as "What have you to do with me?" and his response to the woman who says to him blessed is his mother), but it's a very consistent translation, which what is crucial.
>>715765
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_Nazi_Germany
Sure, and Fred Phelps was a Baptist.
>>715508
>because they are doing what Jesus told them to do, they were wrong
no idea how you got this inference from>>715488
whats the christian version of a fedora? because thats what your being right now. not everything is a discussion about whats "right" or "wrong" or maxims such as "all christians are wrong" if you cant move beyond common vulgar plebian concepts you sound like a fedora
>>715733
It's only bad if you're some kind of weird Catholic. For any normal person it's important because not only is it the "standard" english translation but it was also hugely influential in the development of english literature
>>715655
Yes, evil. Openly worshiping satan evil. False Prophet of Mystery Babylon evil. Raping little boys evil.
The Vatican is evil.
>>715767
Okay, explain to me why Jesus is called the son of Lucifer then
It doesn't make any sense
>>715677
>Feast of Trumpets
Rapture. Harpazo in the Greek.
>>715733
Why would you listen to that person about which bible to read?
Vilify Christians for reading the bible, and then being the expert on which bible to read? Does that make sense to you?
>>715751
Maybe it's older than you think.
Maybe it goes all the way back to pagan Babylon.
Maybe that's what Peter meant when he called Rome "Babylon".
1 Peter 5:13 She who is in Babylon, elect together with you, greets you; and so does Mark my son.
>>715768
There are more than 66 books in canon depending entirely on you're denomination, anywhere between 60 and 80, and maybe even a few beyond that, which have been lost to history. Stop trying to pretend that a version of the Bible that was put together a few hundred years ago by a bunch of pissed off Germans is the penultimate version of the book.
>>715767
The Vatican is evil, and cardinals openly worship satan inside it.
Read anything by Malachi Martin; read anything by Alexander Hislop; read anything by Dave Hunt.
>>715813
Ethiopian Orthodox have 81, I believe.
>>715813
>pen
>>715775
You know they were allies, yes?
You know Hitler was a catholic, and wanted to be a priest?
You know the pope signed a concordat with fascist Mussolini in the 20's, and with fascist Hitler in '33?
You know the pope smuggled Nazi war criminals out of Europe and into South America via the Vatican Ratlines?
No?
You know nothing?
You just copy and paste wiki cites?
Wow, what a great contribution.
>>715807
It was a way to equivocate Rome with corruption, oppression, and evil, which is pretty obvious if you've read any of the Bible actual dealings between the Hebrews and the Babylonians.
>>715779
Learn to follow conversations better.
>>715816
>Malachi Martin
>Alexander Hislop
>Dave Hunt
Who the fuck are they and why should I care about their opinions?
>>715813
I care about the canon of the lost?
There are 66 books in the holy bible, and it is the only holy book on the planet. Any attempt to add or take away from it brings condemnation.
>>715350
Here's a good video on it if you have an hour to kill:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aBrXam36JE
>>715819
It is. satan is an angel, a shining one, a son of the dawn. Helel ben Shakar.
Jerome effed up and translated that into "lucifer".
It's the same angel cum devil.
>>715846
>I care about the canon of the lost?
You obviously do, since you got our OT canon from Rabbinic Jews.
protestants are stupid
>>715832
Exactly. Babylon moved to Rome. My point exactly.
Bonus point. You can vilify Babylon without getting killed by Rome.
>>715839
Inside whistleblowing Jesuit
Greatest historian of catholicism ever
wonderful modern book "A Woman Rides The Beast".
You'd want to read them if you think maybe, just maybe, the Vatican is .0000001% as evil as I have demonstrated it to be.
>>715846
>Any attempt to add or take away from it brings condemnation.
By that reasoning all Protestants should be condemned.
>>715846
>only holy book on the planet
>my religion is the only one that exists
>>715852
Abraham is lost?
Moses is lost?
Jacob is lost?
You sure, papist? You really really really sure?
>>715851
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer#Latin
>Isaiah 14:12 is not the only place where the Vulgate uses the word lucifer. It uses the same word four more times, in contexts where it clearly has no reference to a fallen angel: 2 Peter 1:19 (meaning "morning star"), Job 11:17 ("the light of the morning"), Job 38:32 ("the signs of the zodiac") and Psalms 110:3 ("the dawn").[52] Lucifer is not the only expression that the Vulgate uses to speak of the morning star: three times it uses stella matutina: Sirach 50:6 (referring to the actual morning star), and Revelation 2:28 (of uncertain reference) and 22:16 (referring to Jesus).
>Indications that in Christian tradition the Latin word lucifer, unlike the English word, did not necessarily call a fallen angel to mind exist also outside the text of the Vulgate. Two bishops bore that name: Saint Lucifer of Cagliari, and Lucifer of Siena.
>In Latin, the word is applied to John the Baptist and is used as a title of Jesus himself in several early Christian hymns. The morning hymn Lucis largitor splendide of Hilary contains the line: "Tu verus mundi lucifer" (you are the true light bringer of the world).[53] Some interpreted the mention of the morning star (lucifer) in Ambrose's hymn Aeterne rerum conditor as referring allegorically to Jesus and the mention of the cock, the herald of the day (praeco) in the same hymn as referring to John the Baptist.[54] Likewise, in the medieval hymn Christe qui lux es et dies, some manuscripts have the line "Lucifer lucem proferens".[55]
It's a fucking noun you ponce.
>>715872
>Abraham
>Moses
>Jacob
>Rabbinic Jews
>>715868
By not adding heresy to the bible, Christians should be condemned.
Is that what the Jesuits taught you?
Do you even know that God said He was done in Malachi?
>>715869
There is only One God, and there was only one bible.
And yes, everyone not For Jesus is lost.
And yes, everyone deserves to be lost.
>>715856
Yeah but it was mostly relevant to time of the Apostles specifically. Rome changed a great deal from the time of Jesus to when Church of Rome was established and the canon was being solidified.
>>715819
>explain to me why they translated all the words from Latin into English in the subtitles, with the exception of the word "lucifer
I don't know, I didn't make the video, probably because more people are familiar with term "Lucifer" and they wouldn't understand the significance of it.
God the Father is never called "Lucifer" or its translations (as far as I know)
But a Babylonian king or an angel of light depending on your interpretation is.
It don't make no sense mang
>>715874
The Vulgate is garbage. You can demonstrate that to your heart's content.
The bible was not written in Latin.
Angel is a noun. Satan is a noun. Lucifer is a noun. The angel called satan and lucifer is one being.
>>715831
Your jibbering, reductive, smug, self-righteous nonsense is clearly the cure against wiki warriors.
>>715865
>Inside whistleblowing Jesuit
more like a buttmad ex-priest
>Greatest historian of catholicism ever
a socially inadequate nimrod
>wonderful modern book "A Woman Rides The Beast".
and a shill
See, I have opinions too!
>>715872
What? Your canon was created by Rabbi Akiva, who supported Bar Kohka, the Christian killer, as the Messiah.
>>715876
Oh, you're one of those "Jesus was not a Jew" idiots, even though you have His genealogy in both Matthew and Luke, tracing Him back through both His mother and His adopted father to Abraham, and David.
Brilliant.
Hate Jews, worship the King of the Jews. I'll tell you how that will end.
>>715889
Rome hasn't changed at all. It still calls itself the Eternal City. It still sets upon seven hills. It still causes the kings of the earth to fornicate with her.
>>715892
>The Vulgate is garbage.
I don't care what you think about it, I'm just trying to tell you what the word means in Latin.
And it does not mean what you profess it to.
>>715896
Works every time.
Anyone denying the authority of the Word of God and then uses wiki as an authority is a joke.
>>715901
I don't have a canon.
I have the bible. The Old Testament, the tanakh, was in place for over 500 years before that false messiah was alive.
>>715877
>By not adding heresy to the bible, Christians should be condemned.
By taking away from it, which you consider a condemnable action. You've provided zero evidence, either historical or canonical as to why your books in your version of the Bible are the correct ones. By the way, I'm neither Catholic or Orthodox, so attempting to conflate my disagreement with you with some perceived denominational bias will get you no where.
ᎢᏴᎻ all /his/ has done for me so far is to convince me that americans should be banned from christianity forever.
>>715909
And I'm telling you that the latin translation of the Hebrew is atrocious.
ITT: Catholics blindly defend their abomination of a church
>>715903
>all Jews are the same
I'm sure you've maybe heard the terms Pharisees and Sadducees before. Maybe you've even heard of the Essenes.
Rabbinic Judaism has only existed since the 6th century AD, after the codification of the Babylonian Talmud.
You uneducated pleb. Reeeeeee.
>>715910
What denomination are you, and are all of its followers as nutty as you are?
>>715919
That's not a very Christian thing to say
>>715919
North Germans first please.
>>715918
Old Testament: In. 39 books. Arranged slightly differently from the tanakh. Done in 400 BC.
New Testament: Written by eyewitnesses of the life, ministry, death, or resurrection of Christ Jesus, and containing nothing that contradicts the OT.
Everything else: Historical books, nice to read, not scripture by the Jews or Christians. Apocryphal books the same. Then you get to the inclusion of gnostic garbage, and you may as well just carve a pentagram into your forehead.
>>715925
Absolute garbage. The people that gave birth to those Jews were Jews.
And Pharisaical Judaism was born in Babylon, in the 6th century BC. That's the relevant time period for the bible.
BC
>>715917
He was the one who took out several books though.
>>715926
What kind of question is that, and do the other inmates feel as you do?
>>715943
What are you babbling about? Who took out what books? And why do I care?
>>715938
Are you actually retarded, or are you just pretending?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbinic_Judaism
>I am a know nothing who thinks Judaism is some sort of monolith.
>>715944
I'd like to cut a wide berth around anyone even nominally similar to you. You're the biggest cunt I've seen in weeks.
>>715938
The earliest record of the Pharisees is the New Testament.
>>715961
You know there are true believers in every church and false believers in every church right? Some just more than others
This kind of black and white bigotry thing you got going on is pretty similar to the Catholic church towards the Jews thing t.b.h.
>>715988
Have you even noticed the protestants itt screaing about how Catholics are pure evil?
>>715978
Josephus predates most if not all of the New Testament.
>>715988
Let me guess.
Baptist.
>>715995
Yeah, but I think what they mean to say is that the Catholic church is evil, not necessarily all of the people who follow it
Obviously not every Catholic is a boy-raping, Jew killing, idol worshipping, Lucifer worshipping abomination
Just some
>>715931
>Old Testament: In. 39 books. Arranged slightly differently from the tanakh. Done in 400 BC.
That's kind of my point though. Most of what we consider biblical canon, even the Tanakh, wasn't solidified until 300-400 years after Christ was gone, and there were large amounts of disagreements on the actual canonicity of tons of books. The Bible, as we know it, did not exist in the time Jesus, so to treat one form as factually more correct than the others is rather silly.
There is no correct form of Christianity today, just everyone trying to interpret the word of God to the best of their ability.
>>716007
Nope, Paul's Epistles were written before. The Gospels might well have been too, but they're dated afterward because they predict the Destruction of the Temple.
>>716012
Idk, I don't really have much interest in labeling my faith
I just believe in the deat and resurrection of Jesus for the forgiveness of our sins and try to spread his word
Whatever that "makes me" I honestly couldn't care less
>>716033
*death*
>>715960
You know Jews are Jews who are atheists, yes?
>>715961
No fears, m8. We will never meet, in this life or the next.
>>716043
>Jews are Jews who are atheists
is there a word missing there or something?
>>715995
Christian. Born again Christian. "Protestant" is a strawman of the catholic church, to pretend that they're christians when in fact they are catholics.
>>716052
JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED
well this thread quickly turned into shitpost
>>716060
who are you quoting?
>>716028
This really isn't as hard as you're making it out to be.
Malachi was written @ 400 BC.
Whether someone thinks it should be canon or not is irrelevant. It is a prophet of God.
The Dead Sea scrolls have an intact Isaiah demonstrating that the Isaiah then is 99.8% intact to what we have today.
People disagreeing over things is noise. Filter out the noise. It doesn't effect the books.
>>716055
There exist atheist Jews.
Is that more easily understood?
>>716061
The most misused and misunderstood verse in the bible. kek
That's to my brothers in Christ.
1 Corinthians 6:3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?
That's to you.
>>716075
The papist blaming the "protestant" for pointing out how evil the Vatican, and the catholic church, are.
Who are you quoting?
>>716080
And amusingly enough, it eviscerates the Christian reading of 7:14, since the Young woman/Virgin's conception is listed with a past tense verb.
Not that this stops Christians from translating it as "will conceive" so they can pretend it's about Jesus.
>>716084
That's what I thought, but the exact grammatical structure you forwarded implied that all Jews are atheists.
>>716089
"For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"
I'll take Christ's word for it.
Tell me, what make's you think you're a saint?
It's not correlated to anything, it's some guy's rambling incoherent nightmare that he recorded after suffering an apparent mental breakdown from reading too much scripture. It reads more like a bad shroom trip than a revelation from God. It depicts Jesus with flaming red eyes, a sword coming out of his mouth, and wearing bloodied clothes while leading an army on horseback, which does not seem at all congruous with how His followers described Him.
It baffles me why the church fathers decided to include it in the biblical canon.
>>716089
>Sermon on the Mount
>The most misused and misunderstood verse in the bible.
You realize that what you're engaging in is known as double-think, right?
>>716120
Try to stay focused.
Maybe learn that some prophecies have near and far fulfillment, so that the people of the prophet's day can know he's a prophet of the Lord.
Maybe learn something about your own messiah.
>>716121
They are.
They do not know God, and He does not know them.
They have no temple, no High Priest, they have never kept one single solitary Passover, they have no sacrifices; they have nothing.
At best, they're deists.
>>716121
>brother's
Like I said, my brother.
If you think that vile creature is my brother, you have zero discernment.
I have absolutely zero problems with the way Jesus will judge me. Zero. Zero problems, and zero fears.
>>716157
To remove one letter is to bring the judgments of the book upon one's self.
Maybe they were cowards, and did not lack your fear of hellfire.
>>716157
A lot of things are symbolic in Revelation and make sense when cross-checked with other parts of the bible
It's pretty obvious that these things will happen, Jesus' second coming is described the same way it is in Revelation 1:7 in 4 or 5 other books in the bible
Also the last 3 Jewish feasts that haven't been fulfilled yet (the first 4 have been) correlate exactly to events in Revelation. The last 3 are the fall harvest feasts, the next one is the Feast of Trumpets
You should look into in man, it's pretty interesting stuff
>>716224
If you do not fear God with a capital F, then you have more problems than you might think.
>>716195
It is.
It's Jesus teaching the Law of Moses, and adding to it, in order to show the arrogant and self-righteous Jews of His day that they were not following the Law, even though they thought they were. And that even following the Law is insufficient.
Most people think it's a Christian primer. Most people are wrong.
>>716237
Did I say that, or did you?
No, I do not fear how my Lord will judge me, as His judgments are holy, just and righteous.
>>716210
Maybe learn some reading comprehension, so you can tell the difference from past (What happened yesterday) and the future (what will happen tomorrow).
Ahh, who am I kidding. If Christians didn't take stuff out of context they wouldn't have anything left.
Claiming that 7:14 is about Jesus requires more than just a "far away fulfillment". It requires actively changing the text to conform to your expectations. But I suppose it's just another proud Christian tradition, going all the way to Matthew 2:23.
>>716157
>It baffles me why the church fathers decided to include it in the biblical canon.
Given the impending fall of Rome, the immense amounts of corruption, and the general overall shitiness of life in the late 4th and early 5th century, the apocalyptic rhetoric and message of salvation of Revelation was probably pretty popular.
>Christin thread on /his/
>Catholics and non Catholics arguing constantly
>that one guy who thinks the church is literally evil
>that one guy who is super smug about everyone but him going to hell
>people who aren't even religions shitposting
>the jewish guy who thinks all Christians are false
These threads are bonkers.
>>716241
I said Malachi. You popped off with Isaiah. Fine.
Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
A sign. For the world.
That a young girl has a baby boy.
THAT'S SOME SHOCKING SIGN RIGHT THERE.
WHEN WILL THAT EVER HAPPEN???
>>716240
Then don't assume to be privy to them. You aren't special and outside the will of God you'll be deceived as easily as the rest of us.
The fact that you describe another person as a "vile creature" just cause he pointed out you're being a real dick suggests to me that is in fact the case.
He could go to the same church you do, and you'd never know because you've got your head so far up your ass you've forgotten what the light looks like.
>>716265
That wasn't his first post. And yet, it sufficed.
That you have zero discernment is a problem for you, not for me.
>>716262
What about the Immanuel part?
>>716262
>the virgin shall conceive
You think this doesn't mean exactly what it says?
Normally women can't conceive unless they've had sex, which means not a virgin anymore kid. I know you're probably 8 years old and maybe mommy and daddy haven't told you this, so I'll give you a break this time.
>>716259
/rel/ when?
or /theo/
It's unfair to people without religion to have to look at a bunch of "facts" by religious idiots citing the Bible, most of which are trolls.
>>716259
It's absolute chaos
I love it
>>716291
No ones making you do anything homeboy
>talking about Revelations without understanding the apocalpytic (read: political) tradition from which it comes
>thinking its some 2spooky4u nostradamus bs
do you even history?
itunes.apple.com/us/itunes-u/historical-jesus/id384233911?mt=10
>>716278
John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,..
God
With
Us
>>716275
You are just as blind as the rest of us.
And yet you refuse to accept this and instead are attempting to lead others without yourself possessing of the means to do so.
So who the fuck are you?
>>716281
>What is the Immaculate Conception, the post.
>>716291
>citing the Bible
Yeah, that citing the bible....oh wait. Very few people do this. Imagine citing the foundation for your beliefs for others to read for themselves.
Shocking.
>>716306
Ah yes, the ol' "everything in the Revelation already happened" guy.
You're late!
>>716320
I am salt and light to the world, and have the Holy Spirit of God indwelling me.
You? You're in darkness, and cannot imagine anyone has found salvation.
>>716231
Why can't I decide the Book of Revelation is crap? It lacks any semblance of the wisdom and grace present in the gospels, and a fair few Church Fathers argued against its inclusion in the biblical canon.
>>716344
You're claiming to be God. Reexamine yourself before you deign to tell others their place again, for nothing I've seen has shown me any of the Spirit working through you.
>>716349
Feel free. You can believe whatever you want. You can choose whatever you want.
Except your consequences.
Revelation 22
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
>>716370
Maybe read the bible.
Matthew 5:13 [ Believers Are Salt and Light ] “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men.
I am exactly what I claim I am.
An adopted son of God, who will rule and reign with Christ Jesus.
>>716377
“You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.
>>716370
You said you were in darkness.
Why would I believe that you, in darkness, are any judge of what the Holy Spirit does?
If you cannot see the tearing down of strongholds, and the assaults on the principalities and powers of the air, where do you think you are?
>>716262
Wrong on just about every count.
>Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
If you bothered to look at the Great Isaiah Scroll, you would see "הרה" you know, past tense. The woman has already conceived, not that she will in the future.
http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah#7:14
>A sign. For the world.
You might want to try a little thing called context. Turn back a few verses, I'll start with 7:3
>Then God said to Isaiah, "go now to meet with Ahaz you, and Sgar-Yasuv your son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool, in the highway of the field of the laundryman.
>And say to him: Be calm, and be quiet, do not fear, and do not let your heart be faint, because of these two tails of smoke and fire, for the fierce anger of Rezen and Aram, and of the son of Remaliah.
It's not a sign to all the world. It's a sign to one king about a war he's fighting, which is right there in the text.
And if you look a few verses further, you'll see that the birth itself was not the only sign. But of course, you'd have to actually read the text, which is apparently anathema to whatever Christian group you're in.
>>716393
Knows Hebrew
Can't figure out Jesus is the Messiah.
Thinks I care about His knowledge of Hebrew
kek
The Greek translators of the Hebrew made it clear that the term is virgin, not "young woman".
In case you aren't a Stones fan, newborn babies happen every day.
>>716377
>who will rule and reign
I'm alright with him ruling for me. I would make a shitty ruler.
>>716387
>Why would I believe that you, in darkness, are any judge of what the Holy Spirit does?
I never claimed to know. Therein lies our true difference.
>>716377
>>716382
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
>>716393
Young's literal. Not past tense at all, liar.
Therefore the Lord Himself giveth to you a sign, Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son, And hath called his name Immanuel,
Put that together with the signs in the heavens, and you can see that's Jesus:
Revelation 12
Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.
That child was Jesus, and as usual, the New Testament reveals what the Old Testament hides.
>>716409
I trust Him to make me worthy of this office.
>>716416
You are in darkness, and do not know the light.
I am in the light, yet you claim I am in the darkness with you.
See the problem here?
As to your out of context quote, that is at the sheep and goat judgment at the end of the Tribulation, to see who goes into the Kingdom on earth.
It has nothing to do with born again Christians in this age. At all. Zip. Zero. Nada. We do those things because we love Him, not because we have to maintain our own salvation.
>>716406
Ahh, yes, the old "LXX is infallible" argument.
Which is of course why it was only held to by the Hellenic Jews, and even that was surpassed by the Aquila translation in terms of acceptance.
Go on, show me a single source that will list הָרָה as anything but a past tense word. You know, what iwth not having any prefixes like you'd have if you conjugated it in the future tense.
It's hilarious how much doublethink you'd need to apply to come to the conclusion that it's about Jesus. Do you know WHY Christianity was always a tiny fringe movement in Judea, and really took off when Paul started preaching to the Gentiles? It's because Jews can read Hebrew, and do know the older scriptures, and can tell that your readings are garbage.
>>716372
I'm ignoring it, not altering it. Besides, "believe what I'm saying or you're going to hell," is a prophetic staple.
>>716429
>Young's literal. Not past tense at all, liar.
Which is why the Isaiah scroll says הורה and not הרה. Oh wait, no, it does give the three letter past tense version!
It's almost like..... wait for it.... Christians have bad Hebrew skills, and a vested interest in mistranslating stuff.
>>716447
I did. Young's literal translation.
The virgin is conceiving.
>>715765
>Martin Luther, like Hitler, was a catholic, and remained so.
>Martin Luther remained catholic
>>716464
Your salvation does not depend upon my existence, or anything I say. It's between you and God.
By taking out the entire book, you're obviously doing worse than taking out a word of it.
>>716469
It's almost like....wait for it....Jews lie to each other to say that Jesus is not the messiah.
>>716474
הרה not הורה. All you've done is demonstrate that whomever did Young's translation doesn't have the grasp of Hebrew that a 5 year old Israeli child would have. This is very, very simple grammar.
>>716486
Yes, Jews used their epic time machines to alter the text of a scroll written about 150 years before the birth of Jesus to invalidate his religion!
>>715961
Its been explained to this guy he is wrong on the history multiple times, but he is too caught up in his own delusions to listen to anything that disagrees with his point of view
>>716478
He died the same sniveling catholic friar rat Jew hating heretic that he was on the inside.
>>716489
Or, wait for it.....Jews lie because they are not of God, but of the father of lies.
You know, the synagogue of satan.
>>716489
And again, since it's a double prophecy, with near and far fulfillment, well, it is what it is, isn't it.
One son to Isaiah, and one child to the world.
A SIGN TO THE WORLD
A BABY BOY IS BORN OF A YOUNG WOMAN
NEWS AT 11
>>716495
kek
name one such instance
>>716489
>הרה not הורה
Do you think unmarried maidens in Israel were whores? Sluts? Violated at will?
>>716438
>You are in darkness, and do not know the light.
Oh yeah?
I'm not the one claiming in his arrogance to know the eternal fate of individual people, as God does alone.
At least I know that of which I know not.
I don't care what you think you are, you are not that.
>>716509
If we're going the ad hominem route, then all Christian readings of the bible are wrong because Christians are stupid. I win.
>>716518
>And again, since it's a double prophecy, with near and far fulfillment, well, it is what it is, isn't it.
[citation needed]
>One son to Isaiah, and one child to the world.
Not supported ANYWHERE in the text, which is only talking about Ahaz and his war.
And for it to be about Jesus, you quite literally have to change the words to make it fit.
Hey, did you know that Genesis 14:13 prophesizes the Iraq war? Abram (George Bush) gathered his allies of Britain, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey (Aner, Eschol, and Mamre) to rescue Lot (Kuwait)!
You can't prove me wrong, because I'll shut my eyes and cover my ears every time you bring up evidence against me.
>>716540
Again, I did not say that.
I said I would never meet him in this life, or in the afterlife.
Maybe YOUR reading comprehension isn't what it should be.
>>716530
Please, even go to a google translator, it would be a marked improvement in your reading comprehension.
הָעַלְמָה
Is the word for either the "virgin" or "young woman.
That's not the word I"m focusing on. I'm looking at the next one, הָרָה , a VERB, which is given in its third person masculine past tense form. She has been already impregnated, not "she will conceive in the future".
Your post doesn't even address the issue.
>>716551
Rather than waste your time on nonsense, maybe try to figure out where in Ezekiel 37-38 we are right now.
Oh, wait, you won't, because you don't believe Moses and the prophets.
And I know you don't believe Moses and the prophets, because you do not believe the Messiah, and they spoke of Him. Often.
Hundreds of times.
>>716481
>By taking out the entire book, you're obviously doing worse than taking out a word of it.
treating a book filled with incoherent nonsense as "divinely inspired" is even worse, particularly for Sola Scriptura types.
>>716509
Amen
Revelation 3:9
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
It's pretty self-explanatory who Jesus is referring to
>>716564
"is conceiving"
You cannot see that, because you do not understand the significance of Virgo, Draco, the sun and moon and stars in the Revelation verses.
In fact, you cannot even understand Moses and the prophets, because YHWH has blinded you.
Tough luck. But hey, like anyone else, you can turn to Jesus, the Messiah, and He will open your eyes.
>>716571
Actually, you want to know a time when Moses talks about the Messiah? Deuteronomy 18:15. Which explicitly describes the Messiah as a human, not an incarnation of God.
So, once again, Christians missed the point entirely.
>>716575
There's nothing wrong with the book. It's perfectly fine. You need a good grasp of Daniel, and a good understanding of the 65 books that precede it, but it's very well laid out, and very well explained, within itself. It's quite an orderly book, but for John chasing the devil down to his fiery end, and then coming back to reveal the New Jerusalem descending.
>>716561
>I said I would never meet him in this life
that's a strange assumption, but I guess it's likely.
>or in the afterlife
Which implies that at least one of you will find nothing but eternal damnation.
Judge not, lest ye be judged.
>>716581
When God says a people are stubborn and stiff-necked, they are stubborn and stiff-necked indeed!
>>716590
“The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren.
A Jew.
Jesus is a Jew. And a prophet. And YHWH.
>>716595
It's my choice. I am a sovereign free will moral agent.
>>716585
Nope. "Has been impregnated". Third person male past tense conjugation.
http://www.ulpanor.com/gdl/schools/contents/verbspresent1-46.pdf
You might find this helpful.
>>716613
Fortunately, that's exactly the plan.
>>716608
If then you choose salvation, as I believe you've previously stated, you then make the baseless implication that it is he who is damned. Which is pretty stupid given the fact that you don't actually know cause you aren't God.
Of course if you instead choose damnation it means nothing about what he chooses since it fulfills the "at least" clause of your statement. Which seems to fly in the face of your claim to know salvation.
Hmm, which one could it be?
>>716602
http://www.jewfaq.org/prophet.htm
>The Hebrew word for a prophet, navi (Nun-Beit-Yod-Alef) comes from the term niv sefatayim meaning "fruit of the lips," which emphasizes the prophet's role as a speaker.
A prophet is someone who acts as a spokesman for God. The prophet is thus not God himself. A prophet, by definition, is human.
You're that same twit from the other evening who thinks that Daniel's a prophet, aren't you?
>>716618
1. Near fulfillment. Isaiah had a boy.
2. Far fulfillment. A virgin had a boy.
3. A sign.
Sorry, but you're completely and totally disingenuous when you say that someone having a baby boy is a sign to anyone, much less a king, much less to the world.
I know you want to stay a Jew, and think that believing in the Jewish messiah will somehow ruin that for you, but honestly.
You're not a Jew now, are you. You have been cast out of your people by failing to keep even one single solitary Passover in the Temple in Jerusalem, and you have no High Priest to cover for you.
You're lost, and sinking fast.
And my Lord? Your messiah? He received His wounds in the house of His friends.
>>716645
Not him but
Was Jesus not a spokesperson for God the Father?
>>716642
I just said I never want to meet him.
Do you have any idea how big the New Jerusalem is?
Do you have any idea how big the new heavens, and the new earth are?
(Just kidding. Guy's a reprobate and a lost cause. Get over it. Heaven ain't for everyone.)
>>716645
>A prophet is someone who acts as a spokesman for God
Jesus is God, and talked. He is as much human as though He were not God, the Son of Man, and as much God as though He were not human, the Son of God.
Next.
>>716657
>2. Far fulfillment. A virgin had a boy.
הָרָה Past tense. Even if we assume that the Gospels are accurate (ha!) it doesn't fulfill Isaiah, since Mary's pregnancy was about 700 years in the future, and thus not past tense at all. Basic literacy strikes again! There is no "far fulfillment" just like there's no prophecy that anyone would call the Messiah a Nazarene.
Damn you guys are autistic.
>>716679
So, are you two Jews arguing? Or are you a Jew and is he a Christian?
>>716667
If you buy the Christian line, then no, he's also fully god, yes? But I don't pretend to understand the pretzel logic that goes into trinitarianism, since you know, there's also quite a bit of Biblical assertion (Deuteronomy 6:4 for starters) that says that God is a singular, unified entity.
Prophets are humans, not gods.
>>716674
See what I mean about pretzel logic?
>>716679
You keep thinking your "past tense" argument is effective.
Did you read the dead sea scroll of Isaiah to get that word?
No?
Then might I suggest you are the victim of Jew lies?
And that if the Virgo is Israel, which she is, and she is conceiving, from David to Jesus, might I suggest that you have absolutely no room to deny Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God?
And that your Hebrew skills are kind of worthless in the afterlife?
>>716687
I'm Jewish. I don't think he's a Christian so much as a retarded /pol/tard who uses Christian verbiage.
>>716688
Jesus was a human. Started out as a zygote, came to term, delivered, grew, died, and then rose from the dead, because oh yeah, He's also God.
Funny the argument is something like
I'LL LISTEN TO A HUMAN PROPHET BUT NOT TO GOD HIMSELF
kek
>>716688
>Hypostatic union.
>pretzels
mmmm, pretzels
>>716695
How would you even know what a Christian is?
>>716701
>I'LL LISTEN TO A HUMAN PROPHET BUT NOT TO GOD HIMSELF
That is not the argument. It's that being a "prophet" and "God" are mutually exclusive categories. Since the Messiah is going to be a prophet, that necessarily means he'll be a man, not a God.
>and then rose from the dead, because oh yeah, He's also God.
This just in, the guy in Elisha's tomb is God! Nobody even bothered to write down his name, but he's totally God!
>>716695
Not him, but you're not a true Jew
He doesn't have God the Son, doesn't have God the Father
Sorry bro
You may be ethnically Jewish, or call yourself a Jew, but the bible is very clear who the chosen people are
>>716737
*He who doesn't
>>716705
Me? you're the one that can't figure out almah is a virgin.
>>716722
1. Messiah will die for his people.
2. Messiah will establish the throne of David forever.
Hmmmm, how is a human going to do both again?
Genius 1: Must be two messiahs!
Christian: It's obvious that God Himself is the Messiah, just as Abraham told Isaac.
>>716737
>>716741
They're fooling themselves. They have no temple, no High Priest, no sacrifices; they don't keep the festivals, they don't keep the Law, they don't do anything.
But they still call themselves Jews.
It's ponderous. It literally means no more than an Irishman calling himself Irish, but he's not an alcoholic.
>>715733
The actual translation process was pretty messy. For example
>>715733
This is only half right. It skews protestant in some places, and then skews in favor of church heirarchy in other places, because James was afraid any encouragement of low-church readings would produce republicanism. So it's equally strange that evangelicals like it, because it's specifically intended to prevent their kind.
>>716846
Demonstrating that your theory is bogus.
The mere thought that James had anything to do with the translating work is laughable.
>>715562
only tangential, but does anyone know what the phrase "There shall come a star out of Jacob?" Is Jacob the physical man in Abrahamic myth or does this refer to Jacob as a land? Also, who is the star?
>>716871
He fucking commissioned it.
>>716968
Yes. That is the extent of his involvement. Thank you for proving my point. Go away now.
>>715637
>I read "papal" and "bull", and decided it was catholic nonsense.
>bull in this case comes from the Latin bulla meaning bubble and refered to seals on medieval documents
And ya Protestant bastards say WE make shit up
>>716902
Jesus is the star arising out of Jacob, as He is the Seed of Abraham. Jesus' lineage goes back to Jacob via Judah.
The magi saw a new star and knew that the King of the Jews had been born. They followed that star to Jerusalem, and then to Bethlehem. It was not a normal star, as it waited in place, and moved with volition.
I assume it was an angel.
Other people assume it was a UFO. I suppose both could be correct.
>>716968
>with the translating work
lrn2read
>>716332
yeah but it's all bullshit so who cares? It's irrelevant to truth and actual facts.
>inb4 le tip meme
>>717009
Sicut Judaeis (Latin: "As the Jews") was a papal bull setting out the official position of the papacy regarding the treatment of Jews.
Read your own cites, appear less retarded.
>>717015
The Word of God....bullshit.
I don't know what led you to this dark place, but I suggest moving towards the light.
I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life; no man comes to the Father but by Me.
--Jesus of Nazareth
>>715807
>Maybe that's what Peter meant when he called Rome "Babylon".
Jews under Babylon called it Egypt and the Jews enslaved by Egypt called it Sodom.
Peter was a Jew and called the guys oppressing his brothers by the last guys to do so.
>>717095
>Jews under Babylon called it Egypt and the Jews enslaved by Egypt called it Sodom.
bible cites plz
