So, it turns out that the A-bombs did not force the Japanese to surrender, and thus were not necessary.
http://apjjf.org/-Tsuyoshi-Hasegawa/2501/article.pdf
In fact, the Soviet threat played a much more crucial role in forcing the Japanese to surrender.
It has been established that the A-bombs were dropped on Hirosima and Nagasaki mainly because:
1. The US had spend millions (that's a fuckload of money for the 1940's) on the Manhattan project that was kept secret from the US citizens (the Soviets knew about it). If the Americans ever found out that Roosevelt and Truman had spend millions on a project that didn't produce any result(s), they would have buttfucked the US political and military leadership to oblivion (BUY OUR BONDS LADIES & GENTS AND WE WILL USE THE MONEY ON A PROJECT THAT WOULDN'T DO SHIT TO SAVE YOUR LOVED ONES THAT ARE FIGHTING THE GOOD WAR!). We are talking about millions of $$$ that could have been spend on conventional weapons, aircraft, armor, ammunition, and other GI gear and military supplies that could have made a huge difference on the battlefield.
2. The US wanted to scare the USSR. Didn't fucking work though. Stalin got most of what he wanted.
3. Another reason the bombs were used was to observe, record, and measure their destructive affects upon real humans and infrastructure. Also, the reason the US dropped TWO bombs wasn't because Japan did not immediately surrender right after Hirosima, but because Little Boy was a uranium gun-type atomic bomb, while Fat Man was a plutonium implosion-type bomb. US scientists wanted to record and compare the destructiveness of these two different types of A-bombs. This is also evident by the decision to bomb two cities that were largely untouched by the constant fire-bombing of major Japanese cities by the US.
I thought nagasaki was bombed because whatever place they wanted to bomb instead was too cloudy
>>715248
Nice brainfart.
>>715233
Fuck. Made a typo on the title.
I meant Hirosima & Nagasaki.
Who gives a shit? They had it coming. It was total war and they paid the price.
Gas the idealists, philosophy war now.
>>715233
I for one think the bombing of hepatoma was completely justifiable given the circumstances.
>>715330
you're one to talk, meanie.
>>715277
>>715330
Here, faggots. 2/10 for making me do a quick google search.
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/08/07/world/kokura-japan-bypassed-by-a-bomb.html
yall niggas should read this
>>715330
Alright goddamnit. Rebuttals incoming.
1. Pure conjecture. You have no idea how the public would react to the Manhattan Project.
2. Source? Military actions are not limited to a single, specific goal. If an action can kill two birds with one stone, all the better.
3. Yea, we wanted to study the results of the bombs, refer to my second rebuttal.
Lasty, your source is some butthurt Japanese guy with a slanted (no pun intended) bias.
"James Maddox Professor of History Emeritus at The Pennsylvania State University, and author of Weapons for Victory: The Hiroshima Decision Fifty Years Late has criticized his work and stated that "The truth is that Racing the Enemy... is based upon pervasive distortions of the documents upon which it is based, and what Hasegawa presents as facts often turn out to be no more than products of his own vivid imagination." Maddox then went on to critique the sections of Hasegawa's book in which he believes are distortions of the facts.[5]"
>>715233
Drop first bomb.
No (unconditional) surrender.
Drop second bomb.
Unconditional surrender.
Holy fuck. It's like the past is a fantasy for you people that you can change to your whims.
>>715365
>Pure conjecture. You have no idea how the public would react to the Manhattan Project.
That's not a rebuttal.
>Military actions are not limited to a single, specific goal.
That's why I listed the main 3.
>refer to my second rebuttal
You haven't posted any rebuttals.
>what Hasegawa presents as facts often turn out to be no more than products of his own vivid imagination
That's also not a rebuttal.
>>715357
Why?
>>715349
What's that article supposed to prove?
>>715397
>Drop second bomb.
>Unconditional surrender.
The Japanese surrender was conditional.
The US dropped the two A-bombs and then agreed to the same conditions the Japs had stated before Hirosima and Nagasaki.
At the time, the general consensus was that the Japanese would not surrender, so the US felt that the dropping of the bombs were the best option for ending the war.
Dropping the bombs on the cities was not unusual in that cities had been subjected to strategic bombing for mush of the war.
The results were different only in the number of aircraft needed and weapons used. The deaths of civilians and destruction caused was in line with other strategic bombings.
>>715233
We have known this for a while now. Its the American revisionists who try to keep justifying their atrocity. Especially since they can not admit that the Soviets did something.
>>715428
Tōgō repeated:
With regard to unconditional surrender we are unable to consent to it under any circumstances whatever. ... It is in order to avoid such a state of affairs that we are seeking a peace, ... through the good offices of Russia. ... it would also be disadvantageous and impossible, from the standpoint of foreign and domestic considerations, to make an immediate declaration of specific terms
Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization.
Such being the case, how are We to save the millions of Our subjects, or to atone Ourselves before the hallowed spirits of Our Imperial Ancestors? This is the reason why We have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the Joint Declaration of the Powers....
"We call upon the government of Japan to proclaim now the unconditional surrender of all Japanese armed forces, and to provide proper and adequate assurances of their good faith in such action. The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction."
Yeah, okay.
>>715605
Did the US know that the bombs were unnecessary before they dropped them?
>>715614
https://chnm.gmu.edu/courses/122/hiro/necessary.html
Yes, those who knew the bombs existed also knew the Japanese were already attempting to surrender.
>>715640
Lets look at the words of the men themselves.
http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/1945-Hull-and-Seaman-Third-Shot.pdf
This is a transcript of a conversation between General John E. Hull, who was involved in Allied planning in the Pacific theatre, and Colonel L.E. Seeman an assistant of Groves, on August 13, 1945.
>The problem now is whether or not, assuming the Japanese do not capitulate, continue on dropping them every time one is made and shipped out there or whether to hold them up as far as the dropping is concerned and then pour them all on in a reasonably short time. Not all in one day, but over a short period.
Seems to me that the men who knew the bombs existed did not know if the Japanese would be surrendering or not.
> Anyhow within the next ten days the Japanese will make up their minds one way or the other so the psychological effect is lost so far as the next one is concerned in my opinion, pertaining to capitulation. Should we not lay off a while, and then group them one, two, three? I should like to get his slant on the thing, General Groves’ slant.
Again, they do not know if the Japanese will surrender or not, and are wondering how to get them to, if the first two did not have an effect.
So, who should we believe, your source, which is from a pacifist group with little primary information, or the direct transcript of the people involved on the American side?
You tell me.
>>715686
The context is that Japan wanted to surrender on particular conditions, and America was insisting on an unconditional surrender. They didn't know whether the Japanese would 'capitulate' in the sense of accepting America's demand for an unconditional surrender.
>>715716
So they were not willing to surrender on the victors terms?
Thats armed conflict. When you lose, you don't get to dictate terms to the victors.
Did the US do anything morally different that what other nations were doing and was what was commonly accepted as an aim of strategic airpower?
>>715233
After the Battle of the Philippine Sea the writing was on the wall for everyone to see. The Japanese should have surrendered then and there. Then we have the Philippines Campaign, Iwo Jima and Okinawa. Yet they kept on fighting. Battleships were shelling the Japanese coastlines and airstrikes were a daily occurrence and they still did not surrender.
They practically deserved the A bombs by then.
>>715233
You forgot about this..
.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall
>>715730
Sure you 'don't get to' in the sense that Japan had no legal right to demand particular conditions. It would have been a negotiated outcome, not something that the US was under any obligation to accept.
But do you remember when we were talking about the necessity of the atomic bombs? If someone's trying to surrender, it is not 'necessary' to kill more civilians to get them to surrender.
You might argue that it was necessary in order to remove the conditions (if you completely ignore the role of the Russians). But it wasn't necessary in order to make the Japanese surrender.
In reality the much more significant factor in the unconditional surrender would have been the Russians breaking the non-aggression pact and attacking Japanese forces. There had already been significant bombing raids on Japanese cities, including the first atomic bomb and the fire bombings of Tokyo (which killed more people). To point to the last such bombing and assume that it was the sole cause of the surrender, which came immediately after Japan gained a massive new enemy, is ridiculous.
>>715881
>If someone's trying to surrender, it is not 'necessary' to kill more civilians to get them to surrender.
If they are not agreeing to the terms you want, then yes it is.
>>715898
I made a very clear distinction in that post between 'necessary to get them to surrender' and 'necessary to remove the conditions'.
Did you not read that part, or did you not understand it?
>>715906
It was not an actual surrender.
It did not meet the terms the US was asking for, and so the war continued.
The US hoped that strategic bombing would force the Japanese to surrender to the terms that met the US objectives.
Even if there had been no nuclear weapons, the strategic bombings would have continued.
>>715233
This sounds like Russian revisionism.
>>715930
... right? So you accept that the American actions weren't necessary to make Japan surrender, but only to influence the terms of the surrender? I don't understand why you're trying to argue with that point when you don't seem to disagree with it.
>Even if there had been no nuclear weapons, the strategic bombings would have continued.
Yes, I'm sure if the US didn't have nuclear bombs they would have kept dropping conventional bombs. Up until the point when the Russians forced the Japanese to surrender unconditionally. Which, again, makes it very difficult to argue that the nuclear bombs were 'necessary'.
Here's one thing that is not being looked at....
The Soviets were in no position to be a danger to the Japanese Home Islands. The Americans were. And the end moves were going to verge on the genocidal.
>>715951
>The Soviets were in no position to be a danger to the Japanese Home Islands.
What? Of course they were.
>>715950
>So you accept that the American actions weren't necessary to make Japan surrender, but only to influence the terms of the surrender? I don't understand why you're trying to argue with that point when you don't seem to disagree with it.
My point is that the US wanted Japan to surrender on their terms. They wanted the nuclear bombings to force them to do that.
They did not know if the Japanese were going to surrender or not.
So from their perspective, knowing what they knew, the bombs were necessary
>>715950
Just out of curiosity, how many dead Allied airmen would you accept in a continuance of conventional bombing?
>>715969
As many as were needed to keep civilians safe.
>>715953
>Soviets had no effective naval forces in that part of the world
>Soviets had almost no doctrinal experience with amphibious operations
>their own invasion plans were even predicated on American assistance
No, they really weren't. They'd have slaughtered the Japanese all the way through Manchuria, but hopping over the Sea of Japan was an operation that would've taken another year simply to prepare and train for.
>>715953
No, they weren't.
They didn't have the shipping or logistical setup needed to invade Japan properly at the time.
>>715953
They lost a third of their (borrowed) landing craft attacking a tiny Kuril island (Shumshu, IIRC).
Trying to hit Hokkaido will be much worse, since it's twice as far away, it'll be defended more heavily, and the Japanese aren't likely to withdraw anywhere since there's nowhere to go.
>>715969
I'm not sure how to answer that. I'm not saying there should have been continued bombing. I don't think the additional terms of surrender were worth any lives on either side.
>>716031
>I don't think the additional terms of surrender were worth any lives on either side.
In order to ensure no further Japanese aggression 2 decades down the road, this needed to be done.
The world had fought a World War that left a Germany bitter and still militaristic. This lead directly to the Second.
They were not willing to take a chance on another one.
>>715987
You do realize that had you said that back then on any random street corner in the US or the UK, you would have been at the very least, severely beaten.. At that time the Japanese were considered something akin to rats.
Here are the casualties from the campaigns leading the subject of the thread.
Philippines Campaign
Army: 16,043 dead and missing,
55,531 wounded[nb 1]
Navy: 7,270+ dead and wounded[nb 2]
Tens of thousands hospitalized due to disease
Total: 79,104+ dead and wounded
Materiel:
33+ ships sunk
95+ ships damaged
485+ aircraft
Volcano and Ryukyu Islands campaign
19,840 dead or missing,
58,105 wounded,
33,096 non-combat losses,
79 ships sunk and scrapped,
773 aircraft destroyed
>>716069
All soldiers.
All deserved it.
Civilians didn't
>>716081
Those "civilians" were backing those who were killing the soldiers.
>>716099
they were living their lives.
>>716107
So by living, weren't they also killing?
>>716107
Was Doolittle Russian or American? I'm confused as to which country was actually a threat to Japan.
>>716107
>>716107
do you not understand what total war means?
>>715412
because its a good book for those interested in the history of nuclear warfare in the US.
>>716081
>All deserved it.
Can you elaborate on this?
>>715987
t. reddit
>>716031
>muh feels
matter very fucking little.
apologize for warcrimes japdog
two bombs not enough
>>715609
The imperial rescript addressed to the
soldiers and sailors, issued on August 17, which
states:
" Now that the Soviet Union has
entered the war against us, to
continue … under the present
conditions at home and abroad
would only recklessly incur even
more damage to ourselves and
result in endangering the very
foundation of the empire’s
existence. Therefore, even though
enormous fighting spirit still exists
in the imperial navy and army, I am
going to make peace with the
United States, Britain, and the Soviet
Union, as well as with Chungking,
in order to maintain our glorious
kokutai. "
To the soldiers and sailors, especially die-hard
officers who might still wish to continue fighting,
the emperor did not mention the atomic bomb.
Rather, it was Soviet participation in the war that
provided a more powerful justification to
persuade the troops to lay down their arms.
>>716254
It means that the holocaust was absolutely justified and legal under the pretext of total war.
>>718493
>>718537
this pretty much proves that Japan was defenseless and would have surrendered without LB and FM.
>>718587
Japanese sources that you can find online state that they could have lasted until November of 1945 at the latest . Every single day that goes by more Allied personnel die,
Drop a volcano if you have to. Make them surrender by whatever means as quickly as possible.
>>718503
wrong
the nazis were exterminating their own citizens, and prisoners of war, which would have produced no advances in the nazi war effort.
>>718587
"TF 38 steamed north, and began a major attack on Hokkaido and northern Honshu on 14 July. These strikes continued the next day, and sank eight of the 12 railway car ferries which carried coal from Hokkaido to Honshu and damaged the remaining four. Many other ships were also destroyed in this area, including 70 out of the 272 small sailing ships which carried coal between the islands. Once again no Japanese aircraft opposed this attack, though 25 were destroyed on the ground. The loss of the railway car ferries reduced the amount of coal shipped from Hokkaido to Honshu by 80 percent, which greatly hindered production in Honshu's factories.This operation has been described as the single most effective strategic air attack of the Pacific War."
July 1945. It's all over by any reasonable standard but the buggers would not give up,
>>718628
>Every single day that goes by more Allied personnel die
The Japanese navy and airforce had been utterly devastated. The pic posted above proves that the US had the ability to bomb mainland Japan with impunity. The mainland was defenseless.
>>718631
That's not for you to judge - especially in retrospect.
The nazis obviously considered the holocaust as part of their strategy to eliminate whomever they perceived as threat to the fatherland, and the internal stability and cohesion of Germany.
WW2 was a total war - and every single death civilian or military (including the holocaust) was absolutely justified and legal.
You cannot justify the A-bombs and the constant fire bombing of German and Japanese cities, and draw a line at the holocaust, unless you resort to double-think and rationalizing.
>>718650
Exactly my point.
Add to that, the fact that most veteran Japanese pilots had been long dead, and the Japanese send 15 year olds with outdated aircraft to defend Japanese airspace.
The Japanese were done for - and wished to surrender. The only condition was not to put the emperor and his family on trial and execute them.
That condition was met by the Americans even after the A-bombs were dropped. The Japanese surrender was CONDITIONAL and was carried out on Japanese terms. The A-bombs played a secondary role (if that) in the surrender of Japan to the Allies.
>>718670
You are missing the point completely. Those bastards were done as early as 1944 and they didn't surrender. Any bitching on anyone's part is concerning the validity of the A bombs pointless. Bomb the little bastards right off the face of the earth.
BTW- IIRC the next A bomb target was Tokyo.
Why do Americans try so hard to justify the fucked up things they've done in the past? Almost as bad as Japanese politicians still trying to deny Nanking. Nobody is asking you to go full cuck like Germany, just admit it and move on like the Japanese public have.
"President Truman had stated: "The only language they seem to understand is the one we have been using to bombard them. When you have to deal with a beast you have to treat him like a beast. It is most regrettable but nevertheless true"
>>718695
YOU are missing the point.
When the USSR decided to move against Japan, the Japanese were left with no other choice but to surrender.
The point is that the US leadership did not want the Japanese to surrender. They wanted to drop the A-bombs -ASAP- before the Japanese got a chance to surrender.
>>718711
>Why do Americans try so hard to justify the fucked up things they've done in the past? Almost as bad as Japanese politicians still trying to deny Nanking. Nobody is asking you to go full cuck like Germany, just admit it and move on like the Japanese public have
Anon the fuck are you talking about? US has apologized for past tragedies in wars My Lae, and a few other things. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are nothing more than a normal bombing of a total war country during WWII.
>>718717
If they would have surrendered earlier, they wouldn't have gotten bombed.
>>718717
>YOU are missing the point.
>When the USSR decided to move against Japan, the Japanese were left with no other choice but to surrender.
>The point is that the US leadership did not want the Japanese to surrender. They wanted to drop the A-bombs -ASAP- before the Japanese got a chance to surrender.
Not that guy, call me whatever you want for name calling/childish/or some other shit, but you are pretty fucking retarded if you believe this.
>>718717
From 1944 on all they had to do was call out on one of the many radio frequencies available.
>>715248
That's Dresden
>>715718
No.
>>718724
>>718729
>>718731
The US demanded an unconditional surrender.
Then the US accepted a conditional surrender after they dropped LB and FM. The US was not going to accept a surrender before the A-bombs had been used. The end game was to use the A-bombs, not to force the Japanese to surrender. The made the decision to surrender when the USSR turned against them.
>>718740
* The Japanese made the decision to surrender when the USSR turned against them.
>>716131
Little did the Doolittle raid do
>>718740
Horseshit.
>>716131
Doolittle was a PR stunt.
>>718740
>US demanded unconditional surrender
The US did not accept a conditional surrender you fuck. Imperial Japan surrendered to the United States, all its imperial acquisitions were relinquished and it fell under the control of the Allied Commander of the Pacific, MacArthur who made dumbass deals to be hone.
The fuck are you talking about? Not to mention the declaration of war by the Soviets was used a propaganda and for them to get a foot hold in China after fucking up the poorly supplied, weakened, and no longer useful Kwatang Army in a deal made between the West and Stalin. USSR couldn't do shit to mainland Japan without the US who at the time was planning for a mainland invasion of Japan, starving them out w/air raids assisting them, or dropping the nukes.
Tl:Dr Soviets declaration of war already foresaw by Japanese as they didn't renew the neutrality pack, they knew they were fucked, but were planning to go out with the Mainland Invasion by the US, the nukes changed their mind however.
>>718744
Doolittle raid led to Japanese plans to expand their defensive perimeter. The Battle Of Midway was a direct result.
>>718747
Statement 1:
The US demanded an unconditional surrender from Japan BEFORE Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Statement 2:
The US accepted a conditional surrender from Japan AFTER Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Which of these statements is horseshit?
>>718755
You saying that the US refused just to use the bombs. Bullshit all the way.
>>718755
>>718740
US demand of Unconditional Surrender, Postdam Declaration:
"
-The elimination "for all time of the authority and influence of those who have deceived and misled the people of Japan into embarking on world conquest"
-The occupation of "points in Japanese territory to be designated by the Allies"
-Tthat the "Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku, and such minor islands as we determine," as had been announced in the Cairo Declaration in 1943.
-That "the Japanese military forces, after being completely disarmed, shall be permitted to return to their homes with the opportunity to lead peaceful and productive lives."
-That "we do not intend that the Japanese shall be enslaved as a race or destroyed as a nation, but stern justice shall be meted out to all war criminals, including those who have visited cruelties upon our prisoners."
-July 26, 1945
>US accepted conditional surrender by Japan
>Japan accepted all of the Postdamn Declaration and its unconditional surrender.
You are full of shit you faggot.
>>718753
>The US did not accept a conditional surrender
Yes it did.
The condition the Japanese set was that the emperor and the imperial house was not to be touched.
The US conceded, ONLY AFTER the a-bombs were dropped.
The imperial family was directly involved in the experiments that were carried out in Unit 731. The Americans never touched any of them.
>>718777
The emperor's family was not put on trial. And the emperor and his family was not humiliated.
That was the condition.
The US conceded AFTER they had dropped the A-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
>>718785
It's up to you to prove that the US willingly refused an actual surrender just to use the bombs.
>>718785
"Hirohito was actually convinced he would be deposed and when he first met Douglas MacArthur he supposedly offered to step down from the throne and take the blame for starting the war. Although only MacArthur, Hirohito and Hirohito's translator were present during this historic meeting in the book Embracing Defeat Dower spells out that Hirohito offered to fall on his sword but that MacArthur encouraged him to stay on as Emperor. Dower also talks about how Hirohito's translator published a book of the encounter claiming that MacArthur was in awe of Hirohito and fell over himself complementing his highness. Dower also quotes some of MacArthur's staff that were stunned that he used "Sir" towards Hirohito, as it was the first time anyone had heard MacArthur call anyone, "Sir", let alone the leader of the hated, feared and defeated Japanese Empire,
The move to keep the Emperor on the throne was political. MacArthur and his occupation authorities, known in Japan as General Headquarters (GHQ), thought Japan would be easier to govern thus requiring less men to be stationed in Japan."
>>718785
>The emperor's family was not put on trial. And the emperor and his family was not humiliated.
The emperor was humiliated by losing all power in government and the Imperial Family has become nothing, but a side show now. Not only that the Postdam Conference never mentioned the Emperor or the Imperial Family. All this would be answered in the War Criminal Trials which was fixed by MacArthur because "Muh Emperor Puppet"
>US conceded
>Japanese only surrender if the Emperor and Imperial Family was not touched.
Dumb fucker
Postdam Conference = Unconditional Surrender of Japan
War Crime Trials = High Ranking Officials being charged- This is the part where the Imperial Family wasn't charged.
Japan surrendered to the US unconditionally.
Mfw a weeaboo troll is actually riling people up. People Japan surrendered unconditionally, nukes were justified, let the thread die.
>>718792
- Demand unconditional surrender before you nuke Japan
- Japanese say NO to unconditional surrender
- Nuke Japan
- Then accept a conditional surrender
You have to be a pretty stubborn, dumb, brainwashed idiot to not be able to see it.
>>718802
>The move to keep the Emperor on the throne was political.
That's completely irrelevant.
Your whole post is irrelevant.
>>718803
The Japanese had set only one condition to surrender.
The emperor and his family was not to be harmed, put on trial, or persecuted in any way.
The Americans refused to concede to the Japanese terms until after the bombs were dropped.
>>718823
>weeaboo
go back to /b/ or /pol/
>>718835
You lost. Thread over.
>>718835
>The Japanese had set only one condition to surrender.
>The emperor and his family was not to be harmed, put on trial, or persecuted in any way.
>The Americans refused to concede to the Japanese terms until after the bombs were droppe
[Citation Needed] You are only creditable if this said before they (Japanese) accept the Postdam Declaration and the US signs it where it legally says that. Provide prove or get the fuck out.
>Move to keep the Emperor on the political throne like he was before.
>Irrelevant
Anon shut up.
>>718863
In light of the bombing of Hiroshima on August 6, Nagasaki on August 9, and the Soviet invasion of Manchuria, as well as the emperor’s own request that the Council “bear the unbearable,” it was agreed: Japan would surrender.
Tokyo released a message to its ambassadors in Switzerland and Sweden, which was then passed on to the Allies. The message formally accepted the Potsdam Declaration but included the proviso that “said Declaration does not comprise any demand which prejudices the prerogatives of His Majesty as sovereign ruler.”
>...but included the proviso that “said Declaration does not comprise any demand which prejudices the prerogatives of His Majesty as sovereign ruler.
THE JAPANESE SURRENDER DOCUMENTS:
>The Japanese Government are ready to accept the terms enumerated in the joint declaration which was issued at Potsdam on July 26th, 1945, by the heads of the Governments of the United States, Great Britain, and China, and later subscribed to by the Soviet Government, with the understanding that the said declaration does not comprise any demand which prejudices the prerogatives of His Majesty as a Sovereign Ruler.
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1945/450729a.html
pic related
You can all go get fucked by a pack of feral niggers.
It's amazing how strongly divided this issue is on national lines. Outside of America, you'd find it difficult to find anyone who actually believes that the nuclear bombs were necessary to prevent an invasion. And yet it seems as though the majority of Americans hold that belief so strongly that they actually become upset if it is questioned.
We all like to think we're capable of making up our own minds based on the facts, independently of what we've been taught as children. But I guess this example illustrates how wrong that is.
>>718938
Americans have been the subjects of deep indoctrination and pervasive propaganda by their governments. For example there are still Americans who believe that [in 1991] the US fought tooth&nail against Saddam's 1 million battle-hardened war veterans, and won a decisive victory - whereas in fact Saddam/Iraq fielded an army with devastated morale, outdated equipment, incompetent leadership, and mostly untrained recruits.
In regards to WW2, it is a fact that ALL major military powers committed atrocities. The Brits, the Germans, the Americans, the Russians, the Japanese - they are all guilty of the same crimes to varied degrees.
One cannot justify the indiscriminate fire bombing of German and Japanese cities, and the use of two atomic bombs on civilians, and at the same time condemn the Japanese for the Rape pf Nanking, and the Germans for the holocaust.
You can't say that it was ok to firebomb the Germans because it was total war, but it wasn't ok for the Japanese to mass slaughter the Chinese.
You either accept both as legitimate and justified actions, or you condemn both as inhumane atrocities committed by criminals.
If you justify setting civilians ablaze with incendiary bombs, and nuking two cities, then you are obliged by common sense and reason to justify the mass rape of the Chinese by the Japanese, and the nazi holocaust.
Doing otherwise requires some extreme mental gymnastics.
>>718893
I guess everyone got BTFO! by this post that proves without question that the Japanese surrender was in fact conditional.
>>718991
We still do this retarded Israel/Palestine nonsense here, Americans aren't capable of understanding that it's possible that there isn't a "good guy" in a conflict. Fuck, just look at the civil war and how much nonsense is associated with it.
August 15, 1945.
"By the Emperor Showa's the 124th Emperor; known as Emperor Hirohito) Gyokuon-hôsô [Imperial Rescript on the Termination of the War] (玉音放送),[1] the Empire of Japan accepted the Allied Nations' Potsdam Declaration demanding unconditional surrender" — this is what we have learnt. But there is a question whether Japan surely accepted "unconditional surrender."
Potsdam Declaration
Proclamation Defining Terms for Japanese Surrender
Issued, at Potsdam, July 26, 1945
We call upon the government of Japan to proclaim now the unconditional surrender of all Japanese armed forces, and to provide proper and adequate assurances of their good faith in such action. The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction.
There is no description of demanding for the "unconditional surrender of the country Japan" but "of all Japanese armed forces" (demilitarization). In fact, the Emperor Showa was not forced to abdicate and the government continued to function (the prime minister was selected by Japan's side as well) although Japan was under control of the Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers (SCAP) that stationed the Occupation Army (US Army). The status of Japan remained as "independent and sovereign." It was just demilitarized by the clause 13 or the Potsdam Declaration but has never accepted to abandon the country. Nevertheless, the Japanese people believed that they lost everything because there were many suffering demands by the SCAP's excessive administration such as Shintô Directive (神道指令), the International Military Tribunal for the Far East (IMTFE) and the Constitution of Japan. The IMTFE is against the international law and the enactment of the Constitution of Japan infringes the Hague Conventions.
We do not intend that the Japanese shall be enslaved as a race or destroyed as a nation, but stern justice shall be meted out to all war criminals, including those who have visited cruelties upon our prisoners. The Japanese Government shall remove all obstacles to the revival and strengthening of democratic tendencies among the Japanese people. Freedom of speech, of religion, and of thought, as well as respect for the fundamental human rights shall be established.
The clause 10 guarantees the status of the Japanese people, and states "freedom of speech, of religion, and of thought, as well as respect for the fundamental human rights."
The occupying forces of the Allies shall be withdrawn from Japan as soon as these objectives have been accomplished and there has been established in accordance with the freely expressed will of the Japanese people a peacefully inclined and responsible government.
The Clause 12 states that the occupying forces will be withdrawn from Japan as soon as a certain objectives have been accomplished. Let's review the clause 13 once again.
We call upon the government of Japan to proclaim now the unconditional surrender of all Japanese armed forces, and to provide proper and adequate assurances of their good faith in such action. The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction.
Therefore, the Potsdam Declaration just presents the Allied Nations' conditions "to provide proper and adequate assurances" if Japan accepts "unconditional surrender of armed forces." That means it was "conditional surrender" rather than "unconditional surrender."
"Unconditional surrender" generally means "no questions and answers" that, in the case of Japan, the Allied Nations were able to do whatever they want such as to enslave or to annihilate the Japanese. The Potsdam Declaration just presents "conditional surrender" with bargaining terms between the Allied Nations and Japan.
Tsuyoshi Hasegawa's "Racing the Enemy":
Hasegawa shows how some US officials such as Secretary for War Stimson and former ambassador Grew wanted to include in the Proclamation a definite statement that the Emperor System would be retained if the Japanese people wanted it. Their argument was that the Japanese Government would accept surrender if such a statement were made, but otherwise would fight to the bitter end.
However, Secretary of State Byrnes removed that statement from the final draft of the Proclamation, presumably because he and some others did not want Japan to surrender before the new nuclear weapon could be used against a civilian population, thereby demonstrating to Stalin that the US had the power to destroy a Soviet city, and the ruthlessness to use it.
Furthermore, the Potsdam Proclamation was simply announced as an item of war propaganda, it was not forwarded to the Japanese Government through diplomatic channels in Sweden or Switzerland, which would be the normal course for making an official demand. Hasegawa considers that the way in which the Potsdam Proclamation was issued to the media through the War Propaganda Section of the US War Department was the reason why the Japanese Government did not regard it as a formal offer of terms, and dithered in its response, which dithering was claimed by Byrnes to be a rejection of Allied terms, and hence an ostensible justification for the use of the nuclear weapon of mass destruction.
The lack of connection between the Japanese surrender and the nuclear attacks is further shown by the fact that when the Japanese Government signalled its willingness to accept the Potsdam Proclamation as terms of surrender, the United States Government was taken completely by surprise. Although it had known for some time that the Japanese Government was willing to surrender, and had believed that the declaration of surrender would become well before the scheduled invasion of Kyuuushuu, it had not expected it to come so soon, and had not in fact expected any immediate reaction to the use of nuclear weapons.
Hasegawa himself thinks that it was the Soviet invasion of Manchuria that caused the Japanese Government to precipitately offer its surrender, an opinion shared by many other historians.
The sole condition of the Japanese Government was retention of the Emperor system; everything else could be given away in order to achieve an end to the war. When Prince Konoe was designated to go to the Soviet Union in order to gain its support for an approach to the Allies, he demanded and received authority to offer the abandonment of all Japan's Asian empire, ie to give up Manchuria, Korea, Taiwan, as a bargaining point.
Thus, it is clear that the Japanese Government was willing to accept all the conditions listed in the Potsdam Proclamation, if those conditions had been formally offered through proper diplomatic channels, ie through Sweden or Switzerland (eg as Shigemitsu had tried to approach the United states through Sweden). But they were not so offered, merely released to the media. Those points are made rather more clearly by Hasegawa than by Iriye.
The original draft of the Potsdam Proclamation had included the offer to permit the retention of the Emperor System, but that offer was removed by Secretary of State Byrnes. Hasegawa concludes that the removal was designed to make it more difficult for the Japanese to accept the conditions immediately, so that the surrender would not come before the new nuclear WMD could be used demonstratively on a population centre.
Another Japanese historian, Yukiko Koshiro, has advanced the thesis that the Japanese Government was delaying surrender until the Soviet Union had entered the war against it, on the calculation that once Soviet expansion began in East Asia the United States would give Japan a better deal since it would need Japan as a bulwark against that expansion.
Koshiro's thesis has come under criticism, but it seems plausible.
>>715233
>So, it turns out
What? This line of argument has been argued for fucking years by Gar Alperovitz.
The news of the successful atomic bomb test solved the fundamental dilemmas that had vexed Truman. With the atomic bomb, the president became confident that the United States could unilaterally force Japan to surrender without the Soviet Union. In fact, it became important to exclude the Soviet Union from the joint ultimatum and to drop the bomb before the USSR joined the war. Truman therefore did not even tell Stalin that the United States now possessed the atomic bomb. He only told him during the recess of the Potsdam Conference on July 24 that he now had in his possession "a new weapon of unusual destructive force". More important than this half-truth about the atomic bomb in terms of arousing Stalin's suspicion was Truman's handling of the Potsdam Proclamation. Truman was now determined to impose unconditional surrender on Japan without any consultation with the Soviet Union. The crucial question regarding the exact process in which the final form of the Potsdam Proclamation was adopted is not clear. We know that the initial proposal to strike out the promise regarding "a constitutional monarchy under the present dynasty", as Stimson's original draft had it, came from the Joint Strategic Survey Committee (JSSC) in Washington. This proposal met with an angry reaction from the Operations Division, which presented a counterproposal by amending the JSSC's amendment to read: "The Japanese people will be free to choose whether they shall retain their Emperor as a constitutional monarchy". When the Joint Chiefs of Staff met on July 16 and 17 at Potsdam, they unanimously adopted the JSSC's proposal. The promise of a constitutional monarchy disappeared from the Potsdam Proclamation.
It is not clear who was behind this amendment. Although no evidence exists, it is possible to speculate that the real actors working behind the scenes for this were Truman and Byrnes. [Japanese Foreign Minister] Toogoo's July 12 dispatch to Satoo [Japanese Ambassador in Moscow] informing him of the emperor's wish to terminate the war jolted Stimson and McCloy with excitement. Stimson sent a memo to Truman on July 16, and urged Truman to retain the original phrase promising a constitutional monarchy in the ultimatum. Truman told Stimson to see Byrnes. When Stimson went to see the secretary of state on the following day, Byrnes rejected Stimson's proposal. According to Stimson, "He [Byrnes] outlined a timetable on the subject [of a] warning which apparently had been agreed to by the President, so I pressed it no further". Furthermore, Byrnes and Truman struck out the passage from the text that the Joint Chiefs of Staff recommended that indicated that the ultimate form of government would be left to the Japanese, thus making the text even harsher to those in Japan who advocated the preservation of the monarchical system. Why did Truman and Byrnes write an ultimatum that demanded unconditional surrender without any reference to the emperor's status that they knew full well that the Japanese government would surely reject?
It is important to remember that the order to drop the atomic bombs (note the plural) was issued by the acting chief of staff, General Handy, to General Carl Spaatz, commander of the US Army Strategic Air Forces, on July 25, one day before the Potsdam Proclamation was issued. If one takes into consideration the following five crucial facts - (1) that Truman knew that Japan would reject unconditional surrender; (2) that the order to drop the atomic bombs was issued on July 25; (3) that the Potsdam Proclamation was issued on July 26; (4) that the atomic bombs were ready to be dropped in the first week of August; and that (5) that Truman knew that the USSR would enter the war on August 15 - two conclusions are inescapable: (1) that the purpose of the Potsdam Proclamation was to justify the dropping of the atomic bombs, and (2)Truman wanted to drop the bombs before the USSR entered the war.
>It is important to remember that the order to drop the atomic bombs (note the plural) was issued by the acting chief of staff, General Handy, to General Carl Spaatz, commander of the US Army Strategic Air Forces, on July 25, one day before the Potsdam Proclamation was issued.
Americlaps getting BTFO! to fucking oblivion itt.
We need more threads like this one on /his/.
Who gives a shit, all I have to do is remember unit 731 then I'd gladly hear about Japanese yellow monkey men getting vaporized in atomic fire all day long
>>719301
MacArthur secretly granted immunity to the physicians of Unit 731, including their leader, in exchange for providing America, but not the other wartime allies, with their research on biological warfare and data from human experimentation. American occupation authorities monitored the activities of former unit members, including reading and censoring their mail. The U.S. believed that the research data was valuable. The U.S. did not want other nations, particularly the Soviet Union, to acquire data on biological weapons.
The Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal heard only one reference to Japanese experiments with "poisonous serums" on Chinese civilians. This took place in August 1946 and was instigated by David Sutton, assistant to the Chinese prosecutor. The Japanese defense counsel argued that the claim was vague and uncorroborated and it was dismissed by the tribunal president, Sir William Webb, for lack of evidence. The subject was not pursued further by Sutton, who was probably unaware of Unit 731's activities. His reference to it at the trial is believed to have been accidental.
Although publicly silent on the issue at the Tokyo Trials, the Soviet Union pursued the case and prosecuted twelve top military leaders and scientists from Unit 731 and its affiliated biological-war prisons Unit 1644 in Nanjing, and Unit 100 in Changchun, in the Khabarovsk War Crime Trials.
The trial of those captured Japanese perpetrators was held in Khabarovsk in December 1949. The Japanese doctors and army commanders who had perpetrated the Unit 731 experiments received sentences from the Khabarovsk court ranging from two to 25 years in a Siberian labor camp. The U.S. refused to acknowledge the trials, branding them communist propaganda.
After the end of the war, the United States gave the top scientists in Unit 731 immunity from prosecution in exchange for the data they collected during the experiments which is not really something that is very morally defensible. It was done, basically, to try to prevent the Russians from finding out anything about the experiments, information that could come out at a war crimes trial if it were held.
There was a war crimes trial held in Russia in 1949, in which 12 Japanese bio-warfare officials were convicted, but the results were dismissed as false by MacArthur and by the government of the U.S., expanding the American cover-up of the Japanese activities.
The Joint Chiefs of Staff were the ones who ordered MacArthur to keep everything secret all in exchange for the information the U.S. got from the experiments that Unit 731 and its cohorts had performed.
>americlaps
>good guys
Pick one please.
>>719313
Oh I know, it sickens me that they let them get away with it
I mean, I get that the research they did, however unethical it may be might be useful, but that doesn't mean you give the researchers immunity, they should have just taken the research and then infected those cunts with the horrific diseases they were working with
Always nice to see idiots get put in their place, can't wait to see what is gonna come spilling out of prolapsed American anuses now.
>>719301
>nuke two cities full of civilians because one group of military psychopaths
>we're the good guys though!
American logic is scary.
>>719327
Where have I claimed that I'm morally right for thinking what I think, or that America was morally good for doing what they did?
However, if I had the option to change the past so the bombs wouldn't have been dropped, I'd never once do it, maybe i'm just fucked in the head, but those gooks had it coming
Also i'm not even an amerilard
>>719337
>owtheedge.jpg
>>719344
I'm edgy for supporting an action that shitloads of people the world over support?
Do you know what edgy means you dumb fucktard?
>>719348
You type like a 14 year old trying to be edgey and have the most nonsensical logic. Just because other people are also misinformed doesn't mean you're right.
>>719354
Wow, you're clearly retarded, so here's a tip, don't comment on how people write when you can't even spell
And how can I be wrong with my own subjective opinion of something? Fucktard
>>719359
Oh no, I made a typo on a shitty touch screen, clearly that is the same as your schoolshootercore style writing. You're right though you have only brought opinions into this with no actual facts to back up your viewpoint because you know you're wrong.
>>719363
>thinking japan deserved to get nuked is the same as being school shooter autist tier
Jesus fucking christ are you serious?
Are you a weeb or something, are you that offended by my viewpoint that the gooks deserved to get cooked?
![eFYYe[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/VqA83kV.jpg "eFYYe[1].jpg")
>>719386
>the gooks deserved to get cooked
That's not the point of this thread.
No one asked for your opinion in the first place.
If you want to post about your feelings go start a blog on tumblr or share them via your fake facebook account with 2000 "friends". Lots of edgy faggots like yourself over there.
>>719441
Oh no, sorry, did me sharing my opinion on something related to the subject matter upset you or something? :((((((
>>719348
You're edgy for choosing to express your 'opinion' with the deliberately inflammatory phrase 'those gooks had it coming'.
Support for the atomic bombings is pretty low outside the US, but even supporters generally do not justify them on the basis that Japanese civilians simply deserved to die. If you're not trying to be edgy, you might want to talk to your doctor about antisocial personality disorder.
>>715412
>claim pure conjecture is true
>get called out on it just being conjecture
>claim that isn't a rebuttal therefore conjecture is true
>>720807
Stop grasping at straws and read the thread.
Holy shit, all ameridumbs have abandoned the thread.
>>719337
>those gooks had it coming
If you would know anything about the internal situation in Japan during that time you wouldn't spouting such bullshit.
Punishing a population for suffering through a military dictatorship isn't a very clever thing to do if you want to look "good".
The myth that all japanese just wanted to die for their country persist to this day.
