/his/bollah, I was wondering, is Israel the actual jewish homeland? I am a jew who has never been to Israel, so I am a bit biased, but I have a few unanswered questions:
Do jews have a right to return?
Are the jews of Israel in the wrong? Or are they occupying objectively Arab land?
Was the 1947 partition plan a fair division?
Was the six-day war justified?
Ethiopian Jew here
The only question I can Anwser is your first one, all Jews (so long as they can prove Jewish ancestry)
do have the right to return
>>67606
>return
lmao
Do Americans of European descent have the right to "return" to Europe wiping out the current population?
>>67606
>/his/bollah, I was wondering, is Israel the actual jewish homeland?
Jews and Palestinians are related, the Palestinians are basically the Jews who never went into diaspora and converted to Islam and were assimilated into the larger Arab polity. Is it the actual homeland of the Jews? Homelands are decided by the ability to hold them really, there is no such thing as a homeland if you cannot hold it. So it is what the Jews say it is if they can make it so.
>Do jews have a right to return?
Legally, yes. Morally? I think that depends upon circumstances.
>Are the jews of Israel in the wrong? Or are they occupying objectively Arab land?
The land is not objectively Arab, similarly it is not objectively Jewish or Israeli. I don't think wrongness is really useful here.
>Was the 1947 partition plan a fair division?
Based on population it should have been a smaller Jewish state.
>Was the six-day war justified?
From an Arab perspective it was justified. From an Israeli one it was not. Objectively justified wars are rare.
>>67772
We have lots of Americans here in the UK. They are quite rude.
>>67606
I'd tell you to take it to /pol/ but considering the question that's a stupid idea. I thought the origin of modern Ashkenazi Jews comes from Khazaria in the central Asian steppe.
>>67926
>I thought the origin of modern Ashkenazi Jews comes from Khazaria in the central Asian steppe.
This has been repeatedly debunked. The Ashkenazi Jews are a Hebrew-Italian mix. It looks like some Hebrew men who lived in Europe married some European women and that is the origin of Ashkenazi Jews.
http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/37821/title/Genetic-Roots-of-the-Ashkenazi-Jews/
>>67972
>What they revealed was that Arabs and Jews are essentially a single population, and that Palestinians are slap bang in the middle of the different Jewish populations (as shown in this figure).
>Another team, lead by Almut Nebel at the Hebrew University, Jerusalem, took a closer look in 2001. They found that Jewish lineages essentially bracket Muslim Kurds, but they were also very closely related to Palestinians. In fact, what their analysis suggested was that Palestinians were identical to Jews, but with a small mix of Arab genes – what you would expect if they were originally from the same stock, but that Palestinians had mixed a little with Arab immigrants.
>We propose that the Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolithic inhabitants of the area and additional lineages from more-recent population movements. The early lineages are part of the common chromosome pool shared with Jews (Nebel et al. 2000). According to our working model, the more-recent migrations were mostly from the Arabian Peninsula.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/epiphenom/2009/01/shared-genetic-heritage-of-jews-and.html#sthash.MSAno1XQ.dpuf
This link if you want the study itself: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1274378/?tool=pubmed
So to sum it up. Ashkenazi Jews are Hebrew + European. Palestinians are Hebrew + some Arab.
>>68064
Forgot pic.
>>67972
What is a conspiracy theory about the Khazars? They existed historically. Please elaborate. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars
>>68097
The Khazars were jewish, but the Ashenkenazi aren't descended from them.
>>67606
>I was wondering, is Israel the actual jewish homeland?
At least now it is.
>Do jews have a right to return?
Yes.
>Are the jews of Israel in the wrong? Or are they occupying objectively Arab land?
Nope. Might makes it right, besides most Arab countries deported their Jewish minorities after Israel became independent.
>Was the 1947 partition plan a fair division?
Yep and Arabs still rejected it.
>Was the six-day war justified?
Yes. Arab invasion was imminent, coming in few days or maybe couple weeks.
Hamas are terrorists who tell children and teenagers to stab Israelis. Israel is 20% Islamic Arab which proves the muh apartheid and Islamic discrimination bullshit wrong. All the wars between Israel and the Arabs were started by the Arabs, with the intention of wiping out the entirety of Israel. Also, when the Gaza Strip was controlled by Egypt and the West Bank by Jordan, the PLO still only attacked the Jews which shows they don't care about having their own Palestine, they just want the Jews gone. The facts are what they are and now Israel is clearly in the right
The Arab nations are heavily anti Semitic which most of them evicting or killing all their native Jews after the first Arab Israeli war (which the Arabs started) and yet Israel is still home to many Arab Muslims who aren't discriminated against in any way, with many becoming doctors, diplomats and army officials. Israel is also one of the only democratic countries in the area and is the best in terms of religious and gender equality. For example, the Bahai's are actively discriminated against in most Islamic countries with a lot of them having Bahaism as a legal offense which can warrant the death penalty. On the other hand, the world HQ of the Bahais is in Israel
>>68064
Interesting. So basically none of the original hebrews who lived in Israel millenia ago exist any longer because both the diaspora and non-diaspora mixed with other nations? Are Israelis more hebrew because they kept their faith, or Palestinians more hebrew because they stayed you think?
>>68240
Not only was an Arab invasion eminent before rather Six Day war, but Egypt was explicitly told that any blockade of the Straits of Tiran would be an act of war. They blockaded them and then evicted UN peacekeeping forces from the Sinai Peninsula (which borders Israel) and mobilized their own forces along the border
>>68412
FYI there is no such thing as Palestinian culture or cuisine etc, the area has history been held by Jews, Persians, Arabs, Turks, Crusader states, Egypt, the Ottoman Empire and Britain. Until the proposed formation of Israel, there was no real Palestinian nationalism movement and even when Gaza and the West Bank were part of Jordan and Egypt, the PLO did not complain about this and only attacked the Jewish state
>>68412
>So basically none of the original hebrews who lived in Israel millenia ago exist any longer because both the diaspora and non-diaspora mixed with other nations?
It appears to be the case. I want a genetic study to be done on the remaining Samaritans though (they don't interbreed with non-Samaritans) so they might still be quite Hebrew. There are only about 1000 left.
>Are Israelis more hebrew because they kept their faith, or Palestinians more hebrew because they stayed you think?
Good question, I suppose it comes down to what do you consider Hebrew. The Jews are more culturally Hebrew than the Palestinians (who have culturally been assimilated into the Arabs) but they have basically always been there in the area that Hebrews come from. It is a tough call and one I don't think I can make. I am also not Jewish/Israeli or Palestinian so I have no self interest in choosing either answer.
>>68412
Palestinians are Arabs not Hebrews lol wtf is this
>>68571
Genetic tests prove that they are Hebrews +a little Arab. The same way that say Ashkenazi Jews are Hebrew + some European.
>>67606
All Jews should be in Israel.
>>67794
How was it not justified?
Egypt kicked out UN peacekeepers from Sinai and mobilized their own forces along the border, as did Iraq in Jordanian territory and Jordan signed a defense pact with Egypt
Egypt had been warned that closing the Straits of Tiran would be considered an act of war and they then went and closed them to all Israeli shipping. And then Israel launched a pre emptive attack to prevent the invasion that everyone knew was coming
I don't understand how this is in any justified from the Arab perspective and not from the Israeli perspective, especially considering the main problem that Nasser, the majority of the Arabs, their leadership and the PLO had with Israel was that they were Jews
My great grand uncle Marcus Rudy ehrenpreis singed the Balfron doctrine making Israel a country, which he also funded himself
So Jews could just live
>>67772
They actually have, in Italy
>>68663
I meant that the planned Arab offensive which was the cause of it was not justified from the Israeli perspective and that the offensive was justified in the view of the Arabs. I should have been explicit about what I was saying.
>>68587
Oh yes of course but culturally and religiously they are Arab aren't they. Majority of British people have Germanic genes and Germanic ancestry. Doesn't mean the British people can go around stabbing Germans and be defended by the media for doing so.
Why can't "Palestinians" live in Jordan or Egypt or Syria or Lebanon or Saudi Arabia? They were more than happy to live in Jordan and Egypt before the Six Day War but still kept killing Israelis
>>68664
fuck off, zionist shill. jews live in USA, canada, UK, australia and many other western countries completely unmolested
>>67606
>Are the jews of Israel in the wrong?
Yes, but I'd put more blame on the Whites who decided to create modern Israel.
>Was the 1947 partition plan a fair division?
It looks like a logistical nightmare
>Was the six-day war justified?
Hard to say.
>>68718
Jordan has hundreds of thousands of palestinian refugees currently within its borders...
>>68728
no, you don't.
None of those states are Jewish states.
>>68742
Doesn't Jordanians kind of hate them after black september though?
>>68748
They dont need to be jewish states you fucking freak. Jews live peacefully within those nations, just like they did in palestine before the creation of isreal. Israel is a murderous apartheid/settler state that doesn't have a right to exist.
>>68760
why the fuck would jordan care about some zionist athletes
>>68718
>Oh yes of course but culturally and religiously they are Arab aren't they.
Yes.
>Majority of British people have Germanic genes and Germanic ancestry. Doesn't mean the British people can go around stabbing Germans and be defended by the media for doing so.
This is more modern politics, I think we should stick to the historical circumstances.
>Why can't "Palestinians" live in Jordan or Egypt or Syria or Lebanon or Saudi Arabia? They were more than happy to live in Jordan and Egypt before the Six Day War but still kept killing Israelis
Jordan is already majority Palestinian. Lebanon went from majority Christian to majority Muslim because of Palestinian refugees. It is hardly good for either countries' stability.
>>68728
Lol you're calling him a shill. You do realise that the Egyptian president promised to kill the majority of the Jews in Israel and so did Hamas and Hezbollah? Also as for the countries you named, historically they have been evicted from Britain many times along with the majority of Western Europe (I don't think I need to talk about Germany) and even when they weren't being evicted or killed, they had to pay extra taxes and pogroms were commonplace
>>68787
>Apartheid
>20% Muslim Arab population with full rights
Fuck off Saudi shill
>>68798
post ww2 is what we're talking about you fucking mong. So what if jews were expelled from medieval england for shaving gold coins? That was hundreds of years and ago and some pogroms and the holocaust does not give you the green light to steal land and brutalize a people.
>>68787
What? I don't think any zionist athletes were involved in black september
>>68787
Jews belong in Jewish States, Europeans belong in European states, Africans belong in African states.
Hi there Karl.
>>67606
>Do jews have a right to return?
Only if they where born there.
>Are the jews of Israel in the wrong? Or are they occupying objectively Arab land?
Modern Israel should never have been born, but it's existed for a while now so...
tl;dr
Israel should've been aborted, but it's too late to put the genie in the bottle (can't post natal-abort)
Also, why live in a hellhole filled with/surrounded by angry bees?
>>68704
Ah I see what you meant but I don't understand how it was justified from the Arab perspective? They were attacking Israel for no reason other than that they're Jewish
>>68875
And none of those multi ethnicity belongs in any of the states you listed, go to Israel.
>>68875
Israel wasn't involved in black september, are you thinking of the Munich hostage situation?
>>68887
Liberating the land from an invader etc. They still considered it their [Arab] land.
>>68880
If I was a Jew I would love to live in Israel, as opposed to any other country in the area definitely.
Full democracy and freedom
Most developed country in the Middle East
No bullshit Middle ages theocratic laws
Extremely high life expectancy
Do I need to continue?
Weirdly enough, I took a class on this a few years ago. It was pretty interesting.
> is Israel the actual jewish homeland?
This is a surprisingly hard question to answer. If you're asking in religious terms, maybe. It was promised to them, but Jews aren't technically from the Levant. Abraham wasn't from Caanan, and large portions of the Old Testament feature Jews outside of Israel, sometimes by choice. However, that doesn't matter much, because religion has never been one of the main arguments for Jewish nationalism. In terms of actual history, yes, since Judaism seems to have just been a specific development of native Caananity religion, and Jewish populations seem pretty much identical to Palestinian ones. Archaeologically, it doesn't seem like the Old Testament stories of a glorious Jewish kingdom are accurate, but they are from the area. The idea of a "homeland" is a modern invention, and mainly a product of Zionism, but if the Jews have to have one, Israel is it.
>Do jews have a right to return?
I think so. It's an area which is commonly regarded as their homeland and it has a great deal of cultural significance. If Jews want to live there, I don't see a problem with it.
>Are the jews of Israel in the wrong? Or are they occupying objectively Arab land?
This is a complicated question, but I think so. I fully support the idea of Jews being able to return and live in Israel, but the way they went about it was really fucked up. It basically involved lying to Western government about whether the land was actually occupied or not in order to receive support, and then using basically terrorist tactics to increasingly get more land. It would take a very long time to talk about the entire history, but in very basic terms, Israel has always advanced its status in pretty sketchy ways, including acting against the UN resolution that created it in the first place. And a lot of the land grabs that have happened are basically illegal.
I'll continue next.
>>68952
>Full democracy and freedom
Forced conscription is freedom?
>Most developed country in the Middle East
That's not hard to accomplish
>>68952
There is always Iran. But USA doesn't like Iran, so thats no fun reputation.
>>69106
We don't like Iran because it reminds us of exercise.
>>69106
Iran has theocratic laws, it is literally an Islamic Republic.
>>69173
Yes, and? Lots of third world shitholes has solid laws. That doesn't make it a country.
The country not being shit makes it a country.
>>69086
>Was the 1947 partition plan a fair division?
It was a lot more fair than what's happening now. But its fairness in general is entirely a matter of public opinion. I don't really think it was.
>Was the six-day war justified?
No.
In general, I'm not a fan of how the Israeli government has conducted its existence at the expense of the people who were living there when the Jews started showing up. Partially because I think it's immoral, and partially out of pragmatism. Basically, they've created most of their own problems by committing acts that have turned the rest of region against them. Again, that would be a very long discussion, but the current situation of everyone hating Israel really didn't need to happen.
Talking about Israel is hard, because it involves a lot of strong opinions, and people in general are under-informed about it. In my opinion, the best situation for the existence of Israel is as a secular, one-party state.
>>69201
>The country not being shit makes it a country.
So shit countries don't actually exist?
>>69223
Shit countries are shit countries.
Bonus points for being Russia
>>68952
>Full democracy and freedom
Not really. Israel doesn't have a constitution, and citizenship is based on ethnicity. No other developed country systematically denies a large portion of its population legal rights the way Israel does.
>>67606
Sure Jews can return. We even created a state for them. But they expanded beyond that and stole land from Palestinians. Although Palestine is not a state, there were people living there.
>>69480
Palestinians didn't complain whether Jordan and Egypt were "stealing" literally all of their land
>>69442
That's funny. Because the Arabs have a) Franchise and b) Representation in the knesset.
And it's an unwritten constitution. http://www.knesset.gov.il/description/eng/eng_mimshal_hoka.htm
Damn look at this. It's called google.
>>67606
>is Israel the actual jewish homeland?
Absolutely. In practice, every bit as much as the US is the actual American homeland; but I assume you mean if it's really the site of the historical Israel, and yes, no question whatsoever. The only thing wrong with it is that it's missing a huge chunk of land on the east bank of Jordan.
>Was the 1947 partition plan a fair division?
No, it fucked the Israelis. Not even Churchill's division of the Mandate into essentially Israel and Jordan was fair to the Jewish side.
TL;DR the Arabs were wrong at every turn, barbarian scum now, and deserve to get it good and hard from the Israelis.
I'm a full blood Germanic by the way, inb4 Zionist shill
>>69831
>I'm a full blood Germanic by the way, inb4 Zionist shill
you wouldn't be denying that you were a shill If you were a shill, hasabara
>>70023
>you wouldn't be denying that you were a shill If you were a shill
While I don't think you thought this logic through at all, you did accidentally land in the correct conclusion here.
modern Jews in Israel are semitised Europeans
>>67926
The Khazar thing is pure /pol/ nonsense
