If two man dies without faith, one after murdering several people and one after spending his life helping others, do they both go to hell according to Christianity?
And if they both go to hell, do they go to the same hell?
If anyone got anything about the Islamic view on it I am all ears.
>>900412
>If two man dies without faith, one after murdering several people and one after spending his life helping others, do they both go to hell according to Christianity?
Because maybe it isn't so much about a old man in the sky passing judgement on you personally, maybe it's a fact that both souls go to the same place by virtue of some sort of natural law.
Maybe, while their "crimes" are completely different, they both result in the same ending. In the case of the murderer the stain of taking lives tends make entry to bliss impossible while for the atheist entering a place you believe doesn't exist is equally impossible. The result is being as far away from that "heaven" as can be, i.e. hell.
>>>900000
>>900412
>according to Christianity?
This new Pope supposedly caused a petty big uproar because he claimed that you just have to be decent human bean to avoid damnation.
>>900429
That don't really make sense though.
If a man can't enter a place because he do not believe in it, how can he then enter hell which he equally much don't believe in?
And if it's a law of nature, does that mean that Souls end up in hell automatically? What about that part where it's stated that unsaved souls will quite automatically be thrown into the final hell at the end of days?
>>900445
there is no mention of fiery pit of eternal suffering in the bible
>>900412
faith in God is supposed to have a really huge significance in a real life, physical world, practical kind of way. which is not to say no one's ever said it doesn't, but it's sort of the point of this salvation thing. you're just irrelevant if you don't have it.
>>900452
Matthew 13:41-42, 49-50 “The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Mark 9:43, 48-49 “And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire…where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ For everyone will be salted with fire.”
Matthew 25:46 “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
>>900445
What is hell anon?
>>900547
A place of darkness and heat, where people weep and gnash their teeth.
That's what I got from bible verses.
>>900445
> does that mean that Souls end up in hell automatically?
Maybe something like that, only certain souls can easily find their way out and everyone else just gets stuck there. Maybe the psych that is accumulated through life and death is what lets you actually get to heaven or keeps you in hell.
Or maybe we all go to purgatory and that same psych is what leads you to heaven or hell. A "good" person easily finding their way to heaven while an unbeliever finding their way to either hell or staying put in a grey room for all eternity with the killer easily finding their way to hell.
>>900412
>If two man dies without faith, one after murdering several people and one after spending his life helping others, do they both go to hell according to Christianity?
It depends, did the latter actively reject Christianity, or was he just ignorant.
Did the latter sin or not, and if so did he sin knowingly.
Yes, there is only one hell. Purgatory isnt a hell, it's just a waiting room for heaven
>>900602
I'm just trying to spitball possibilities for the unknown universe beyond death.
>>900612
If there's a purgoatory, won't that only be for people who believe in Jesus?
If the murders dies believing in jesus he will have a chance to recive heaven after a limited time of suffering. The one without faith will stay in hell for eternity.
Christcucks actually believe that even if you were a murderer who sadistically tortured people to death but ""converted"" on your deathbed, you get an eternal reward, whereas an average Joe who didn't believe automatically gets eternal suffering and agony.
>>900412
Both men have faith. All men have faith. Having faith means nothing.
One dead man hurts people and goes to hell.
Another dead man helps people and goes to hell.
Why do they both go to hell? Because they are both dead.
Like most of you. Dead.
>>900452
So now that you know there is, why haven't you changed your position on avoiding it yet?
>>900628
Is it unknown to God?
>>900667
That is correct. Your first man would be Saul of Tarsus, and your second person would yourself.
>>901031
Bible is pretty clear on heaven and hell. People want other answers. People are broken. And dead. And rebellious. And wicked. And lost.
>>900640
>If there's a purgoatory, won't that only be for people who believe in Jesus?
In the normal case, yes
>If the murders dies believing in jesus he will have a chance to recive heaven after a limited time of suffering.
Maybe, did the murderer repent of his sins and desired to be baptized, or go to confession?
>The one without faith will stay in hell for eternity.
If he voluntarily rejected faith, or voluntarily stayed ignorant of it, then yes
No sin is too great to be forgiven as long as you truly repent to God and yourself. God is love.
>>901073
>Saul of Tarsus
>Converting on his deathbead
Really?
>>901082
There is no purgatory; it's an invention of the Catholic church. It's bogus.
There are no second chances after death.
Stop repeating the lies you were told.
>>901094
Yes. Saul died, and Paul was born.
If you want to be titchy.
The actual point was that the greatest apostle started out as a mass murderer.
>>901093
There is one sin that is not forgiven a man, and that is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, Who is the witness saying "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God."
To call the Holy Spirit a liar is unforgivable.
To be an unbeliever is unforgivable.
>>901082
What counts as rejecting Jesus? Do I reject Jesus if I don't feel persuaded by a Child trying to convert me? If I only gets it through a Jack chick tract, being pulled off by his rather question view on history?
>>901103
Okay, let me ask it as this.
A man does at a young age accept God, living as a true Christian for his whole life.
One day though he gets to see evidence talking against some part of his bible.
May even be a small part, like that Jesus meant that or wanted that, making him not fully believe in Jesus.
The next day he is gonna search for arguments that it happened like he is supposed to think, bringing him back to the heard.
The same day he is hit by a buss though, dying.
Does he deserve to go to hell simply for not having enough faith for a single day, a faith he would regain if he had just lived a little longer?
>>901114
Everything except accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior counts as rejecting Jesus.
Being For Jesus requires 2 things: 1) that you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord; and 2) that you believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead.
Jesus really is the Lord, and He really did rise from the dead.
We're asking you to believe the truth.
>>901225
What if I find your proof lacking?
>>901175
>A man does at a young age accept God, living as a true Christian for his whole life.
Then he will be in heaven.
>Rest of stuff.
Then he will be in heaven.
Once you believe, and the Holy Spirit is in you, there's no way out, and there's no way back. You're saved, forever. This is the deal in this age, the age between the Pentecost and the end of the age, which is rapidly approaching.
Nobody and nothing can take you out of the hand of God, not even yourself.
>>900412
>If two man dies without faith, one after murdering several people and one after spending his life helping others, do they both go to hell according to Christianity?
>And if they both go to hell, do they go to the same hell?
"Anonymous Christianity" and "virtuous pagans" are important concepts for the Catholic view on this.
>>900547
A place where people suffer the most.
College basically
>>901231
I'm not here to give you proof. I'm here to give you the reasons why I believe. I'm just one witness telling you that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, Who had transformed my life into something wonderful, performed many miracles on my behalf, and with Whom I am building a close and personal relationship with every single day that passes.
It's the Holy Spirit you need to be concerned about as a witness. He is telling you, in a still, small, clear voice, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
Disbelieving Him is fatal. His proof, that He raised Jesus from the dead, after healing the deaf, the blind, the lame, the lepers, the dead; feeding 10,000 people with a few loaves and fish, walking on water and calming the storms; His proof suffices.
It is Him you need to believe, Anon.
>>901264
The problem is, you can't really give me much more proof beyond your story.
I can meet Muslims, Budhists, and Hindus that all claim that wonderful thing have happened to them thanks to their conversion.
>>900547
The absence of God
Okay, let me see.
>God will send anyone to hell simply for not believing in him
>You can go to hell simply for being in the wrong Church or having the wrong idea about something like trinity
>Hell is eternal
>Hell is terrible
>Everyone in hell suffer equally
>If you never had a chance to hear about JEsus you still goes to hell
Do I get the idea of the Christian view on Hell right?
>>901315
>Everyone in hell suffers equally
>If you never had a chance to hear about Jesus you still go to hell
I believe their doctrines are rather ambiguous on these points. Rest looks spot on though.
>>900547
Too many people focus on the hellfire and the darkness but the worst part about the Christian concept of hell is by far the absence of God. Imagine the dread following the greatest feeling of having fucked up in your entire life, and magnify that by a magnitude of infinity.
>>901281
And again, the proof you think you are looking for has already been provided to you by the Holy Spirit of God, Who has told you that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
This game you think you're playing with God, that you'd just believe Him if you had a little more evidence, do you think He will honor you for it?
As it stands, He declares that you are without excuse.
Do you think He will honor your excuses?
>>901333
Every sola scriptura Fundie I know of have accepted those two ideas, aren't they really rather clear?
>>901315
There's some indication that people who knew more about how to be saved and rejected that salvation suffer more in hell than others, but yes, Unbelief ends people up in hell, as Unbelief is the only unforgiven sin.
Jesus was not going to force anyone to accept Him, or believe in Him, against their will. Still won't.
>>901315
Yeah it's not real. A loving god would not be such a faggot. If god is real he is a malevolent prick.
>>901338
The absence of God is the absence of light, of love, of joy, of peace, of patience, of kindness, of gentleness, of long-suffering, of goodness. None of the things of God are in hell.
Lighting people on fire forever may be a mercy.
>>901354
What indication?
The Fundie prophet, Jack Chick, have never said anything about that as far as I remember it.
>>901369
Luke 12
47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.
>>901370
Why is it a strawman?
>>900412
If they both die in a state of mortal sin, yes.
Same hell for both
>>901378
Because the Holy Spirit of God is the witness to the resurrection of Jesus Christ; the heavens declare the glory of God; and the earth shows His handiwork.
A person need never hear of "Jesus" to put together that whoever made the universe is worthy of worship, and to desire to know Him. In fact, Jesus said that anyone who believed Moses and the prophets believed in Jesus, because Moses and the prophets spoke of the Messiah, and Jesus is the Messiah.
Before the end of the world, there will be angels declaring the gospel to the entire earth, and every man will have yet another chance to choose For Jesus, or Against Jesus. And like usual, most men will choose Against Jesus.
>>901381
All sins but Unbelief were forgiven at the cross, papist. Stop lying to people, and stop trying to help people while you're blind, poor, naked and lost.
>>901397
keep diluting the Faith, heretic.
>>901404
Nice Dagon hat, Pepe.
>>901404
1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
IV. THE GRAVITY OF SIN: MORTAL AND VENIAL SIN
1854 Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture,129 became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.
1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God's law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.
Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.
1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God's mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:
When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery. . . . But when the sinner's will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.130
1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.
>>901412
All papist garbage.
>>901393
>Before the end of the world, there will be angels declaring the gospel to the entire earth, and every man will have yet another chance to choose For Jesus, or Against Jesus.
So what you're saying is that there will be a very clear, indisputable event where unmistakable angels will provide the very sort of proof everyone asks for before choosing to believe, and everyone who doesn't currently believe, having witnessed this event, will get one more chance?
Who the fuck wouldn't choose to believe them if that is the exact sort of proof 99% of people who struggle with belief ask for right now?
>>901375
Though even if that's true, you got millions of American Indians right now in a slightly better hell since no Christians arrived till 1492 (Even later if you view Catholics are false Christians)
>>901416
All three of those posts are me.
The first says that people apparently have different experiences in hell; some worse than others depending on how much they rejected of the truth. Those are dead people.
In the second post, a man can make it into heaven on his own, on a desert island, never hearing the name of Jesus, by deducing that the universe was made by a universe maker, and that such a person is someone worthy of worship. Jesus reads the hearts of men.
Jesus is The Way, The Truth, and The Life, and He justifies everyone who believes in Him, whether they know His name or not. Again, in the OT, nobody knew the name of Jesus, but many were saved because they believed in a coming Messiah.
The thing people tend to downplay is that each and every human of each and every time absolutely and without exception deserves to go to hell when they die.
There need never have been any means of salvation ever, much less one purchased with the blood of God Himself.
>>901436
Because people are broken.
Revelation 9:20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.
Revelation 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.
>>901441
Their children, who died having never reached the age of accountability, are all in heaven.
I am of the opinion that a belief in the Great Spirit could very well impute righteousness to a man, should the man so worship Him as such.
>>901459
So did I read that right?
Everyone will be given one more chance to accept Jesus at the end after being given the very proof they've been denied?
Works for me, you'd have to be a complete moron to not take God up on that offer.
>>901462
Though the Indians didn't try to spread their belief in the great spririt, and most Indians lived in Latin America where they worshiped several Gods.
And again, wouldn't that go against John 14:6?
I found this while reading the introduction to the Eastern Orthodox New Testament. I'm Catholic, and the Catholic Encyclopedia agrees with this. I assuming many Protestants who are educated in the Greek do too.
Doesn't matter how good you are if you've chosen not to believe... in one of the literal thousands of branches of Christianity.
Now that we seem to have a Christianity general sort off, why does God order the Jews to kill all the citizens in the cities they conquer? As the forgiving God, shouldn't he be able to just have them lie down their earlier religion and join his?
>>901688
Yahweh wasn't merciful until Hellenized Jews tacked Plato and Aristotle's God onto him.
>>900412
>If anyone got anything about the Islamic view on it I am all ears.
You only get guarenteed paradise by dying in Jihad. Otherwise your salvation is based on wether God feels like it or not.
>>901452
do these ghosts and angels tell you to kill me because i am a heathen? and are you not obliged to listen to them or else you are just as bad as me?
serious question
>>901748
So, is it possible to say that Christianity until the reformation was mostly just Roman philosophy in a new form, the old testament pre-Hellenic parts of Christendom only really starting to get big again when the reformation occured?
>>901467
You will also be given the Great Delusion, so that you will not believe; and if you take the mark of the Beast, you go to hell.
Even assuming your plan comes to fruition, you end up far less than Christians of this era; you're basically stuck on this rock, while we're in the New Jerusalem.
>>901476
Crossposted.
If they come to the Father, they will be coming via Jesus imputing His righteousness to them by their belief.
I trust Jesus to make good decisions.
>>900412
>You have to believe to enter heaven, because believing and following jesus' works is supposed to make you flawless
>HURP DERP DID HITLER AND BHUDDA GO TO THE SAME HELL?!? LOL KRISTIANZ BTFO!!1!
>>901864
>the Great Delusion,
What's that?
>>901556
That is correct.
Hell is currently empty.
Paradise is currently empty.
Dead unbelievers still go to the torment side of Hades.
>>901590
You can never be good enough to earn a spot in heaven. That's kind of the point of Christianity.
And God chooses everyone who chooses Him.
>>901748
He spared Cain of murder, and provided that the seed of the woman would save us, so, no.
>>901315
>If you never had a chance to hear about JEsus you still goes to hell
From what I understand, if a person doesn't have a chance to hear about Jesus, this person goes not go to Hell.
On a separate note, I've also been in the understanding that Hell is outside reality which makes it timeless. Jesus went to Hell to preach to sinners, presumed for those Gentiles that came before he spoke the Gospel, so they may have a chance at heaven. If we go under the assumption that Hell is outside time, which would mean anyone meant for Hell is already "there", then Jesus preached/will preach to them and save them. Just a theory.
>>901764
Hence 1400 straight years of jihad.
>>901884
Please, calm down.
>>901896
Don't God kill one of his judges because the judge don't want to kill everyone in some city?
>>901794
No, of course not. Neither God nor any angel not fallen would tell me to murder you. So any voice that tells me to murder you is from the devil and his cohorts.
I believe ghosts are just demons using what they learned about the decedent to deceive people, and of course they can take the form of people, while they are beings of light. So ghosts, apparitions, evil spirits, these things could all come from the same source. Fallen angels.
I am only "good" in God's eyes, and that is only because God has imputed His own righteousness to me, for my believing in Him. He looks at me, He sees Jesus. And as He thinks of Jesus, He thinks the same of me, as Jesus stands for me. Leads me. Covers me.
>>901885
It's not specifically enumerated in the bible, but I believe the great delusion is that the antichrist is the Messiah.
>>901926
So God will show Crystal clear evidence of himself, then let the less powerful devil just cover it up from almost everyone?
>>901913
Joshua did that, but wasn't killed. Saul did that, and lost his royal lineage, and eventually his life. Sampson did try to kill everyone, and did quite well at it. I can't think of the person you're referring to.
>>901936
It will be His delusion, yes. Some people believe that if you have been presented the gospel and reject it, that post-rapture you have no chance. I don't believe that. I do believe people grieve the Holy Spirit by constant rejection, though.
The way I see it, the less you see, and the more you believe, the higher your station in the Kingdom of God.
>>901936
God showed crystal clear evidence of Himself to the Hebrews, and many still preferred to worship statues and be degenerates.
People are broken.
For instance, if someone took you to McDonalds and told you that you could have anything you wanted, but not a Fillet-o-Fish, guess what you would want?
>>901864
>Great Delusion
Luckily for me I don't trust the gubmint the antichrist is supposedly going to be in charge of.
Bring on the Angel revelation thing you're talking about.
>>901952
Why would anyone, seeing their God up face and knowing very well how powerful he is, chose to denounce him? If you do meet your God, know very well that Idols are devils and have seen him punish others with fatal consqeunces, why turn away from him for some Idols?
>>900461
>new testament
>>901923
>So ghosts, apparitions, evil spirits, these things could all come from the same source. Fallen angels.
Wew, lad
>>>x
>>902041
Yes?
>>902049
Oh nothing, just thinking about how christians ruined one hell of an interesting religion with tons of inconsistencies and shit
>>902066
What religion did they ruin senpai? :3
>>902078
Mesopotamian religion of course, he probably worships baal
>>902125
Don't absolutely all non-Christian non-Jews do that according to Fundies?
>>901114
>What counts as rejecting Jesus?
knowing all of what Jesus did and saying "no" to his salvation. Or having the opportunity to know it but rejecting it.
Of course if all you know about Jesus is from Chick tracts then you wouldnt actually reject Jesus, but a twisted form of it.
Of course, faith in Jesus isnt enough, you must also have faith on his Church, sacraments, etc.
>>901101
But there is.
Purgatory isnt a second chance.
>>902158
I am actually holding Jack chick in a kinda high regard, as almost every protestant on here seem to share his ideas in some way.
Or maybe they are just trolling.
>>900412
>don't believe in magic Jew bullshit
>supposedly burn in hell
Quit propagating and legitimizing this Jew bullshit.
>>902176
>protestant
You mean, Jew, don't you?
That's what you are. You and every other idiot that buys into the Jew religions.
You can call yourself a "christian", or a "protestant", or even a Muslim, all you want, but when it comes down to it, you all worship the Jew "god", and are no different than any other Jew.
How about thinking for yourself instead.
>>902176
You shouldnt, since he speaks a lot of bs from time to time
>>902189
>>902190
I don't believe in him, just think he is a good source on Protestant thought.
>>902189
There is no Jewish God, it's one same God for everyone.
Also, Jews hate Christianity. I mean some ultra orthodox jews think Nazism was a Christian ideology.
>>902197
I wouldnt think so. Protestantism isnt a single faced phenomenon. SUre, many agree with some Solas, but their interpretation of them varies among denominations
>>902211
If nothing else he gives a very good insight in how Fundies function.
>>902202
>There is no Jewish God, it's one same God for everyone....
As espoused by the Jews.
>Also, Jews hate Christianity...
And?
They hate christian Jews because they broke away from old school Jews and no longer help fund old school Jew temples.
>>902226
>mfw my rifle still gets posted years later
>>902228
They didn't break away from "Old School Jews" they continued the proper tradition. It's the rabbinite heretics who are the breakaways.
>Through humility, soul searching, and prayerful contemplation we have gained a new understanding of certain dogmas. The church no longer believes in a literal hell where people suffer. This doctrine is incompatible with the infinite love of God. God is not a judge but a friend and a lover of humanity. God seeks not to condemn but only to embrace. Like the fable of Adam and Eve, we see hell as a literary device. Hell is merely a metaphor for the isolated soul, which like all souls ultimately will be united in love with God.
Pope Francis
>>901363
The problem with your statement is that you seem to forget God is also just. In the Bible is says that God cannot stand to be in the presence of sin. He hates it. So unless we make sacrifices of animals (it sounds cruel but it was to demonstrate that the atonement for sin was death) in repentance we are not righteous before God. I don't know about you but if I had to kill an animal for all of my sins according to the law of Moses there would be a lot of animals. That is what Christ was. There is a reason he is called the sacrificial lamb. He took the punishment and wrath of God on his own shoulders because he is the only one who could ever do such a thing. The alternative is that we all (everyone who has ever lived or ever will live) should live in eternal death. Never fully dying and finding no reprieve for the pain. So no God isn't an asshole. He is perfect and commands that we be perfect as well.
>If anyone got anything about the Islamic view on it I am all ears.
I'm tryna help you as much as I can OP. I am a Sunni.
Basically, good people go to heaven! But how do you know if you are a good person?
It is measured in three things:
Your relationship to allah
Your relationship to yourself
Your relationship to other people
If you care for all those three things then you shall enter paradise in the after life inshallah.
In Islam we also believe that there are always two angles with you, one that notes all your bad deeds, and one that notes your good deeds.
On the judgement day you will be shown all your deeds, and Allah will lastly decide if you enter paradise or not.
Hopefully I helped you out a bit. If you want to know more just let me know.
In Islam there are differing levels of hell.
People who never knew about Roman Catholicism and the reasons for believing it, couldn't have, by the definition of it, committed a mortal sin by breaking the 1st commandment, only a venial one. So it's still possible for them to go to Heaven.
>>902796
i can see why the conservatives are unhappy with him. This almost sounds reasonable
>>903652
It's probably a false quote. Hell is a biblical truth and whoever says things like in the post you quoted deludes himself. It's a problem to reconcile Hell with infinitely loving God, but there are two things to consider while thinking about solving it:
>the only way to get into Hell is by committing a mortal sin, i.e. committing eith a full consent a sin against any of the 10 commandments, while knowing that you are sinning and being aware of how wrong is the thing you are doing
>by the Catechism, going to Hell stems from the very nature of sin, rather than being a punishment for it; while it isn't clear what the above exactly means, perhaps it can be explained by the fact that mortal sin is clearly a sign of denying God's love, and the worst part of Hell is being forever away from God - when a person gets sorry for mortally sinning because he offended God and decides not to sin anymore, he is no longer in the state of mortal sin
