Christians, do you adhere to the Calvinistic or Arminian system of theology?
And is the "once saved, always saved" doctrine true?
Some say that you can lose your salvation, while others say that you can't.
Arminian.
Jesus died for all mankind, not just the "elect".
Predestination just seems wrong.
also nice trips
>>890777
7 is the number of completion in the Bible
OSAS is true.
A saved person gets the Holy Spirit within him and he becomes a child of God and secure. If you can lose your salvation it means you can lose the spirit which doesn't make any sense. It also makes Christ's death useless.
By not believing in OSAS you stop relying on Christ and start relying on your own works. And you can't get to heaven with your own works.
You are saved by faith alone but this doesn't mean you have a license to sin. Works are a product of genuine faith.
If you don't become a completely new person or "born again" as Evangelicals put it, you might not be saved in the first place.
>>890796
>predestination just seems wrong
It's because you don't understand it.
Calvinism is degeberate. It makes God a sick egomaniac who beats his son up all because he himself intentionally made his toys fuck up.
>>890816
Once one believes in OSAS, Calvinism
becomes the logical conclusion. Technically once one affirms Sola Fide, the conclusion is ultimately Calvinistic for it to be consistent
>>890777
>dat image
I love the mental gymnastics of Christians. Trying to fix a problem so hard.
>>890777
whoa, triple 7 dubs with that pic
>>891176
>waaahhh stop insulting my intelligence!
>my tiny brain can comprehend everything!
>i am the owner of the universe!!!
t. fedora
Calvin ran his own little "popery" in Geneva.
Reformed Theology is still pretty cool though.
You can't lose your salvation.
Once you repent and accept Christ in your life, you're eternally secure.
>>891275
it's pretty lame and stupid
>>890777
Predestined for trips
Arminius based his shit on Pelagianism.
Calvin from Augustine.
It boils down to whether you believe in literal interpretation or allegoricalism.
Calvinism has more Biblical scriptures to support it.
The reason Pelagianism is more popular is because it's more attractive. The funny thing is that Calvinists make the best evangelicals and soul winners.
>>891473
James White pls go
The way I see it:
1. Man is sinful and incapable of fully understanding God's nature.
2. All denominations, churches and systems of theology are flawed. Not one group has it right. Rather, every group has bits of the truth.
3. The elect/saints aka real Christians are scattered throughout many denominations. Only God knows the hearts of man.
>see the Flat Land analogy
Imagine Mr. Flat and Mrs. Flat. They live in a flat land and can only perceive 2 dimensions.
If I wanted to communicate with them, I can stick a finger through the flat paper. I would appear as a circle to Mr. Flat.
I can stick three fingers through their dimension and appear to Mrs. Flat as 3 circles.
Mr. Flat starts the church of the 1 circles and Mrs. Flat starts the church of the 3 circles.
But none of them have any idea who I really am, the scope and immensity of me.
>>891538
Huh.
>>891538
This is stupid since no one really knows what is the truth. So there is actually no sign of who's elect and who's not.
It is true that no one can really comprehend God and it would end up like the Flatland analogy. However, that doesn't mean we cannot really anything about God. Such as, if he truly want a relationship with Creation and love them, he would give them free will and autonomy to enable them to be truly persons and in his image.
That he would not decree that X and not X to be true simultaneously. That is simply contradictory and makes no comprehensible sense whatsoever.
>>891473
Augustine isn't a Calvinist. He is much closer to Catholicism and Luther. But differing from Luther, Augustine affirms free will. He even believes that the predestined can fall away and that the human being must be included in the equation as an active participant in Salvation, powered by God's grace.
>>891444
>
This sounds like shizophrenic rambling desu.
Can't believe I considered Christianity after growing up athiest just because Islam is even more backwards and the fedora meme.
>>890777
>Christians, do you adhere to the Calvinistic or Arminian system of theology?
Arminian desu because although Christ's sacrifice atoned for all sins, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (i.e. denying the Resurrection) shall not be forgiven and therefore the unrepentant shall not receive mercy.
>And is the "once saved, always saved" doctrine true?
Yes because God knew who was saved from before creation because He exists outside of linear time.
>Some say that you can lose your salvation, while others say that you can't.
You cannot; Grace does not make mistakes.
>>890777
I'm an atheist who grew up in a catholic distributist household, calvin seems the most agreeable to me
it fits very well with protestantism which seems to disintegrate the fastest into atheism outright
>>891707
Once OSAS as affirmed it then becomes fact that the human being is never active in Salvation in the first place.
This means of course that God is very selective on who Grace would be given to given that those who fall away do so because they were never saved in the first place.
Inevitably, Calvinism is the conclusion.
It's also why Calvinism is the very logical outcome of Protestant theology and doctrine. Of course the very fact that there's a disconnect with the Early Church and Biblical Scholarship is telling that this is false, alongside similarities with heretical groups such as the Gnostics whom many take the OSAS stance as well!
>>891728
The Holy Spirit is who initiates salvation; human beings merely have the choice to cooperate or resist. The Holy Spirit is the active actor in the relationship, not the human.
God is very selective on whom grace is bestowed; Christ teaches us that "small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
A person is saved by their connection with the Holy Spirit and not by the traditions of men.
>>891752
This means that God actively chooses who gets to be saved and who goes to hell.
This completely flies against the face of
"God does not want any to perish.."
It makes more sense that every human is capable of being saved, it is our choice and our initiative to respond to the Gospel.
>>891752
If the human being have to make a choice to "cooperate" or "resist", that implies that he is active, not passive since he is doing something and putting effort!
This is already contradictory to your later statements and points. Thus making your whole point, inconsistent and contradictory. Meaning of course, it's just as true as a married bachelor
"Once saved always saved" makes you lazy and slothful.
I'm not saying salvation is by works, but the Bible makes it clear there is a sin unto death.
>>891766
>it is our choice and our initiative to respond to the Gospel.
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last--and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
- John 15:16
>every human is capable of being saved,
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
- Matthew 13:24-30
Do Arminians believe calvinists go to hell and vice versa? Or is it not that important?
>>891772
No, even if a person resists and puts in "effort" God's will cannot be thwarted; God is active because the Spirit always has His way.
>>891796
It's not a salvation issue so disagreement is tolerated.
>>891800
You are not answering the argument. You claim that the individual can cooperate and assent with the Holy Spirit. This implies activity on behalf of the person. But later on, you claim that it is all by the Holy Spirit which contradicts your earlier point.
Saying this doesn't make your point consistent. Only to go full on Calvinist is the way.
Once this is done, even more problems arise since we see that God is not loving, he beats his own son to forgive his puppets for screwing up which the puppets were in his full control and intent. That is just sickening.
>>891804
Actually it is.
Both cannot be true simultaneously. Only one can or none.
This makes it important given how this concerns how man is Saved.
To put this away is to of course be like the heretics the Early Church faced where they all have conflicting doctrines, a mark of a false church.
>Roman Catholic church fits all the descriptions of the Antichrist in the book of Daniel and Revelation
>Papists just dismiss it as "coincidence"
Babylonians gonna Bab.
Protestants explain,
The first clear attitude to emerge on the relation between Scripture, tradition and the church was the coincidence view: that the teaching of the church, Scripture and tradition coincide. Apostolic tradition is authoritative but does not differ in content from the Scriptures. The teaching of the church is likewise authoritative but is only the proclamation of the apostolic message found in Scripture and tradition. The classical embodiment of the coincidence view is found in the writings of Irenaeus and Tertullian.
These both reject the Gnostic claims to a secret tradition supplementing Scripture. Apostolic tradition does not add to Scripture but is evidence of how it is correctly to be interpreted. This tradition is found in those churches which were founded by the apostles, who taught men whose successors teach today. These apostolic churches agree as to the content of the Christian message, in marked contrast to the variations among the heretics. It is important to note that it is the church which is the custodian of Scripture and tradition and which has the authentic apostolic message. There was no question of appealing to Scripture or tradition against the church. This is partly because the apostolic tradition was found in the church but not just for this reason: the Holy Spirit preserves the church from error and leads her into the truth. The real concern of Irenaeus and Tertullian was not with the relation between Scripture and tradition but with the identity of ecclesiastical with apostolic teaching. Any exposition of their teaching on Scripture and tradition which fails to show this is to that extent defective. (A.N.S. Lane, “Scripture, Tradition and Church: An Historical Survey”, Vox Evangelica, Volume IX – 1975, pp. 39, 40 –)
>>891821
So you can go to hellsimply for having the wrong idea about salvation_
>>891814
A person can cooperate with the Holy Spirit which will give them peace and joy or they can resist in which case they will be afflicted.
However in either case, once the Spirit chooses to enter a person's life His purpose will ultimately be achieved.
>>891841
Yes.
There can only be one truth, and one Christ who doesn't say contradictory things
>>891838
Apostolic succession is unscriptural.
There is no evidence whatsoever that Peter was ever in Rome.
Infact, scripture makes it clear that Paul was the apostle to the gentiles and Peter for the Jews.
>Jesus told us that the master should wash his servant's feet
>Catholics tell us to listen and obey your priest and suck his dick
>>891845
You still did not address the problem.
If a person is cooperating with the Holy Spirit, the person is active, not passive as he is also exerting effort in Salvation.
This means that there cannot OSAS by definition as for OSAS to be possible, the individual must be a passive tool. But this contradicts your first premise and thus makes your whole system inconsistent
>>891821
People are saved by faith in Christ, these esoteric doctrinal issues are for theologians to sharpen each others wits with.
The average Christian has no idea about the distinction between Armininan and Calvinist theology because it's auxiliary to living a Christian life.
>>891847
And yet, zero scholarly citations and no Early Church evidence.
In contrast, I had cited from an academic essay which contains references to other scholars and the works of Early Christian authors.
The point there is to show how there is no Sola Scriptura in Christianity's infancy and within its early phases
>>891856
Except of course, is that faith of their own? or is it something external that alters them?
The average Christian is ignorant of these issues which are of importance given their implications on the persona of God and his will. And of course the very topic these issues concern.
To shove it away is to be dishonest.
>>891853
>If a person is cooperating with the Holy Spirit, the person is active
Just because you keep repeating this does not make it any more true. God initiates the relationship and therefore He is active and we are passive. Our choice lies only in whether we cooperate or resist but in either case God's will is done.
>the individual must be a passive tool.
Who can claim that he is not used by God?
>>891861
>muh Church Fathers
Nicolaitians were proto-Catholics and Jesus hated them.
Protestants practice pure Biblical Christianity based on the study of scripture and faith.
Catholics practice a crypto-pagan religion popularized by Constantine.
>>891846
And if he does? Or just isn't clear enough?
>>891872
Faith is initiated by coming into contact with the Holy Spirit who is external to a totally depraved fallen human.
The average Christian ought to concern himself primarily with the praxis of his walk with Christ and not become seduced by philosophical diversions.
Theologians will always have their place in the church but it is ludicrous to expect every Christian to be conversant with such issues.
>>891873
False. Once an individual has the ability to cooperate with the Holy Spirit, the individual is active and doing something in the process of Salvation.
This of course means that your whole notion of the human agent being passive is contradictory. You can't even answer the argument.
Kierkegaard's notion of "Faith" is that of a series of mental states that lead to action, that is of the individual himself. Should he turn the human being into some passive tool, it would contradict his own Existentialist views which presupposes free will and human autonomy.
Your system doesn't allow this given that the human being is nothing more than a passive tool. This means everything done by the human being is in fact not from the person himself but of God controlling him like a puppet.
This inevitably leads to Calvinism.
>>891890
If he does, he isn't even god. What kind of omniscient entity would make mistakes?
>>891893
This is important since both views are opposing and contradictory to each other. Only one can be true. Not both. Or none.
Thus the issue still remains. Either God is saying two contradictory things as true which would make him deceitful or irrational or he never actually said those things to begin with.
When this is taken into account, the issue becomes important. Your whole excuse doesn't solve anything by the end of the day. It doesn't tell anyone which view is the one of God and which is true. People are left in the shadows on the very message of God himself. This results in theological solipsism
>>891903
>the individual is active and doing something in the process of Salvation.
Salvation was preordained before anything even existed! God in His impenetrable infinite wisdom chose whom he chose and nothing a person does can alter that because the decision was made outside of linear time!
>Your system doesn't allow this given that the human being is nothing more than a passive tool.
WHO CAN ALTER GOD'S WILL?
>This means everything done by the human being is in fact not from the person himself but of God controlling him like a puppet.
Gross oversimplification. The dynamic between a person's will and the Holy Spirit is incredibly subtle, it's like a dance, with the Spirit leading. We can choose to follow His lead or dance out of step (i.e. missing the mark) but in either case the Spirit still leads.
>>891926
>What kind of omniscient entity would make mistakes?
Remember the time God regretted creating humanity so much he killed almost all of them?
>>891941
Good, so no free will. God is just a puppeteer controlling puppets who got so pissed at those puppets he controlled intentionally that he beat up his son so that he can forgive them.
Once more of course your analogy of the dance implies the human being being active given he is also making movements and efforts. But this contradicts what you said earlier.
So either your theology is simply illogical or it is just Calvinism.
>>891948
Remember when God got so pissed at his own puppets which he played with and was in total control off that he beats up his son to vent his anger?
>>891926
>Only one can be true. Not both. Or none.
This has no bearing on whether or not someone is saved. Christians are measured by whether they love God and their neighbor, a theology degree is not a prerequisite for salvation.
>>891948
It's a figure of speech.
Has it ever occured to you that nothing occured to God? He can't be surprised.
God knew everything that would happen before He created the universe. He knew you before you were born.
>>891838
Just to play devil's advocate.
Early Christianity was a closed community, you have church members being addressed with family words in some of Paul's letter and I think discussing things like the equivalent of a pot-luck. It seems we do not get an actual official order of rank until the second century and even than it's a pretty loose idea.
Early traditional Christianity was a bunch pockets of communities that gathered in a house to share food with the less fortunate and discuss religious matters. The type of wide scale organization and power structure of apolostic succssion is a latter tradition (as was the Protestant Evangelical fever): although such power structures were critical in having the religion be a political power. Something like the Amish is probably more authentic to 1st century Christianity power-structure.
You could also argue the idea that a closed-cannon was a new tradition rather than the original. The first idea of a closed cannon was Marcion right? From what I've gathered early Christianity was like folk religions in the sense that canonically thing were very loose and relative to local pockets.
>>891966
>Remember when God got so pissed at his own puppets which he played with and was in total control off that he beats up his son to vent his anger?
Yes, I do remember that. I'm not sure why you would bring it up, but yeah.
>>891966
>analogy of the dance implies the human being being active given he is also making movements and efforts.
In the active/passive relationship dynamic the passive actor responds the active actor and this response is a "movement and effort" but does not change the fundamental dynamic at play (i.e. leading and following).
>>891969
>God knew everything that would happen before He created the universe.
So then by creating the universe knowing full well what would happen, is he not responsible? If I build a car with faulty brakes am I not responsible for the driver's inevitable crash?
>>892006
The breaks weren't faulty.
It was the female driver.
>>892006
What's more exciting, a close game that ends in 4-3 or a onesided game that ends in 6-0?
What's more exciting, an intense movie that keeps you at the edge of your seat or a boring movie where nothing happens?
Life is a movie. The universe is a grand opera. We partake in a spiritual warfare, and God has decreed how it will end (the good guys win).
>>891967
Then the question is why do you hate the Catholics so much?
Their views by this line of logic is also equally valid just as the others. But this doesn't make the problem go away. It makes God some deity who is inconsistent with what he is saying.
>>891974
Early Christianity was quite organized as we seen in Clements' epistles or that of Ignatius. Scholars generally tend to believe that in every city there's a council of presbyters who might also be in some cases lead by a leader or Bishop.
In the NT itself, we see that the Jerusalem church already had a leader, James.
But either way the issue of organizational structure is really nothing compared to the beliefs of Early Christianity. True, it is varied but there's always an orthodox group fending off the other heterodox groups.
You are right about the idea of a closed canon though. From what I had read, Marcion stripping away the whole OT, caused the Church to take steps into defining the canon. Usually, the Canon is fluid in nature. There is a core agreement on what books should be in but other books are to be disputed and can be considered canonical by some and non canonical by others. Sometimes the distinction between the two are lost in fathers such as Athanasius who whilst didn't consider the Deuterocanon as Scripture, cites them as Scripture.
The fluidity of the canon is also present in Judaism, especially during the time of the Apostles and Jesus.
>>891977
As a reminder that free will is a meme and you are a puppet :3
>>892023
>It was the female driver
Adam knew.
>>892026
Would you say this same thing to someone who was born with a horrible alignment?
>>891985
To be passive is by definition, to be inactive. This means you aren't doing anything. Or if you somehow are, something else is controlling you.
Thus by using any lingo such as "cooperation" or "choice", one's implying activity hence "active".
And because of this, your entire system is just illogical and nonsensical.
>>892029
>Then the question is why do you hate the Catholics so much?
I don't hate Catholics.
Now Romans on the other hand...
>>892026
>which is more exciting
If I'm omniscient, neither.
>>892037
Yes.
>>892045
And there you go being a hypocrite.
Either way whether Catholicism is valid or not be logical consequence of your position, the fact remain that God is inconsistent or hides the truth from us.
>>892056
Catholicism is the continuation of the ancient mystery religion of Babylon.
>Semiramis was the "Queen of Heaven"
>begat Tammuz
Satan is clever and deceives billions of people.
Thank God for the Reformation.
>>892043
A person is passive because they are "acted upon" by the Holy Spirit.
>>>892056
Accuse me all you'd like, only Christ has authority.
>hides the truth from us.
For now we see through a glass, darkly.
>>890777
Holy Trips
>>892072
if you can't cite any academic source for your outlandish claims, then just shut the fuck up
>>892080
There are hundreds of articles and documentaries exposing the origins of Catholicism.
Blame yourself for not knowing shit about the Papacy.
>>892075
Good, because they are acted upon by the Holy Spirit and you claim human passivity, the ultimate conclusion is Calvinism. And a whole new can of worms is opened!
>>892080
t. scribe
>>892084
Nope. Only by crackpots like you, not actual academicians.
>>892089
Hey, if that is somehow true or valid, I'd see it mentioned in...I don't know maybe JND Kelly's "Early Christian Doctrines" or Andrew B Mcgowan's "Ancient Christian Worship"
>>892086
Arminianism also holds that believers are acted upon by the Holy Spirit, knucklehead.
>>892091
>it's just a coincidence that the Papacy fits all the descriptions of the Antichrist
>it's just a coincidence that Catholicism's Mary worship resembles the pagan goddess queen legends
>it's just a coincidence that Freemasonic symbols are plasted all over the Vatican
>it's just a coincidence that the Papacy is responsible for the most brutal murders and suppressions in medieval Europe
>it's just a coincidence that they outlawed the Bible and kept people in the dark
Smells like denial.
>>892101
>muh scribes
Catholicsm isn't Babylonian religion directly, it's just Roman paganism thst shares elements with Babylonian religion because of its influence on Greek mythology which later influenced Roman mythology.
>>892106
They also believe that Faith comes from God and yet believe that human beings can somehow have free will.
At least Luther's best friend Philip's more consistent.
Either way technically speaking, everyone believes in Sola Fide. It's just a matter of the presuppositions made and definition.
>>892120
Yes, we understand that the human mind is not capable of perfectly understanding how the Holy Spirit works
>>892112
Stop acting cute, I just wanna cuddle you now :3
>>892120
Are you Catholic? Or what denomination? I'm a lurker late in the thread and trying to figure out where you argue from. You are writing excellent rebuttals.
Catholic here
>>892129
And yet you don't understand that God cannot say one thing and then another contradictory thing as truth simultaneously.
Protestant > Orthodox > Catholic > Cults (Mormons/JWs)
From most Christian to least Christian.
>>892132
Orthodox.
Though I don't think where I'm arguing from is in opposition to Catholic soteriology here.
>>892135
What you say is contradictory, we say is simply beyond our understanding.
Does the Trinity itself not appear contradictory?
Our puny intellects cannot grasp such things.
>>892110
How are the Catholics going to take over the world? They have no standing army so they can't take over land. As far as financial power goes they can't even match the mega corporations for bribing power.
Fuck man Catholics can't even spread their theology well. All Catholics girls are sluts who have had at least one abortion before they turn 18 and all the men are homosexuals.
>>892160
So?
You cannot have free will and no free will simultaneously. You cannot have God saying X to be true and not X to be true simultaneously.
Or better yet, the Eucharist to be his flesh and blood in the form of bread and wine and such to be not simultaneously.
On these issues, the whole "beyond understanding" excuse cannot be made to explain the opposition in doctrinal belief.
Once we take your position, we get no way of knowing which is true. Which is actually God's message or what the Apostles had written down. And this leads to theological solipsism.
Variety is one thing. But it is another thing when such variety creates opposing doctrines.
>>890777
>others say that you can't.
oh, so what they're saying is that if I'm saved I don't have the option of changing my mind?
protestant retards
>>892194
God's message is to love Him with your whole heart, soul and mind and to love your neighbor as yourself.
Reasonable minds can disagree about the nature of free will without putting their salvation in jeopardy.
>>892222
If you're saved, you don't have the option of changing God's mind.
>>892224
Except when of course it must by definition given the nature of free will is tied to how Salvation would play out and the very intentions and nature of God.
Ben and ed....Is real?
>>892239
Words are words are words.
>>892251
Too bad then.
Now come and cuddle with me by the fire
>>892262
In your dreams.
>>892273
Chu <3
>>892277
Anime is the work of the devil.
He wants you to stop focusing on God and by distracting you with lesbians.
Did you know that anime contains satanic themes, depicting demons as cute lolis or advocating beastiality (aka cat girls)
>>892371
>>892277
>>892273
>>892262
>>892251
Yes, good goyim, embrace degeneracy.
>>892371
>>892377
Anime is not a crime.
>>892171
>How are the Catholics going to take over the world?
Demographics
The emerging Latino ethnic majority in America will be devout Catholic.
They won't need an army, or even financial supremacy.
All they need to do is grow faster than you do.
>White anglo-saxon "evangelical" protestants
>abandoning religion, turning to hard drugs and suicide in record numbers
>Population decline in most places
It's not looking good
>>892031
ADAM KNEW. GARDEN OF EDEN WAS AN INSIDE JOB.
>>892171
It's called ecumenicalism.
The Antichrist is going to be
>Jesus of Catholicism
>Mehdi of Islam
>"Ascended Master" of New Agers
>Alien saviour of atheism
>>894279
>Protestants are protesting Catholicism so much they now reject Jesus as Christ and lord
Amazing
>>894297
>Catholics are so retarded they don't know that the Antichrist will claim to be Jesus
Antichrist means "in place of" or "instead of".
>Vicar of Christ
is literally a title that Popes give themselves, and it adds up to 666 when you do the math.
It's amazing how illiterate you are when it comes to history.
>>894306
Martin Luther's name adds up to 666 in Latin
Vicarius Christi actually doesn't translate to 666
Protestants who make this claim change it to Vicarius Filii Dei which does, but isn't the title of the pope
>>894297
>doesn't know the fake christ comes before the real Christ
This doesn't surprise me, since Catholics never read the Bible.
>>890777
>Christians, do you adhere to the Calvinistic or Arminian system of theology?
Neither, its a false dichotomy
