Tell me about the 30 Years War.
It is one of the most important European wars. Be more specific with your questions.
quite a few Germans died
>>654287
It lasted 30 years
>>654287
A huge percentage of the population of Europe was lost. It was the worst European war ever and did far more damage that Communism or Nazism and it was started due to religion.
It was about states rights.
>>654287
Luther won, so do i.
It was horrible and it never would have happened if it weren't for greedy Protestant aristocrats and the usurers that supported them. All those regions who were fighting on the Protestant side are now all strongly atheist.
>>654287
In very broad terms, great power politics were played across the German region without the consent of the German people.
>>654305
>it did more damage than communism
No.
I wonder what all these massacres throughout history have done to our gene pool
>>654332
>i am such a brilliant sage of knowledge that my defiant "no" requires no explaination
>>654328
Being a Protestant is a worth more dying for than a lie.
>>654328
>implying that Ferdinand wasn't an intolerant shithead who wanted to reverse the clocks back 100 years on Protestant toleration in the HRE
>implying it matters anyway considering that the entire war was just an excuse to have a fight between Habsburgs and every else
>>654328
>All those regions who were fighting on the Protestant side are now all strongly atheist.
Because of communism, retard.
Did more to actually destroy the HRE than Napoleon did, to be quite honest. He just finished the job.
>>654356
The HRE was never much to begin with. The Thirty Years' War just crushed German Liberties and ensured that there wouldn't be any semblance of German independence until after Napoleon.
>>654379
>The HRE was never much to begin with.
It was a hell of a lot more cohesive before the protestant reformation. Even with the Swiss and relatively autonomy amongst much of it, the Kleinstaaterei is proof of the incoherence caused by the destruction and division in the 30 Years War.
>>654354
>Sweden was communist
K
>>654354
Expand.
At what point did Communism make Sweden, France and Denmark highly non-religious.
>>654334
Drained the Nordic blood. They are always the bravest, most willing to fight for a cause and the first to die.
>>654287
Always do the opposite of what Frenchmen say
>>654409
Sweden yes, Communism was never huge here. We have been anti-USSR and anti communist ideas since.. Well, since always.
>>654409
>Sweden is very socialist.
http://www.forbes.com/best-countries-for-business/list/
Sure.
>>654305
wew lad
>>654409
> No communist party have ever gotten more than 12% of the votes.
> Huge
And according to the political compass, Sweden is more libertarian than the US. But please, tell me more about how Sweden is a "very socialist" country.
>>654417
There has been an openly communist party in parliament since forever, the social democrats used to win with over 50% of the votes. You're delusional.
>high taxes
>free healthcare
>state owned television where 70% vote for either environmental party or the commies
>state monopoly on alcohol
>not socialist
Ask your dad about the 60's and 70's.
>>654443
None of that is in the manifesto, though
>>654443
Oh no not free healthcare and social democratic parties!
They're just like Stalin!
>>654443
> free market economy
> democratic elections
> communist
pick one
>>654443
we force fed krauts with fermented poo+pee cocktail and stole their stuff
Legitimate outrage against unjust religious prosecution gave way to thirty years of Habsburg stomping
What would be a good book about this war? Topics of interest:
>Rise of the Swedish Empire
>Regular dude's point of view
>Tactics and strategy of big guys, Gustav II Adolf was a cool guy
>Religious madness of the 17th century, antichrists everywhere
>Politics politics politics
Suggestions?
>>654287
Germany suffer more during that war than the whole WW2
8000000 germans died, 25% of the country, and 50% of all men
Paraguay war worst by far tho
>>654778
CV Wedgwood The Thirty Years War for dem politics
>>654300
>citation needed
>>654287
It was pretty long, but it was actually a bunch of related conflict happening one after the other so it was k.
[spoiler]It was actually not k. [/whythere'snospoilerson/his/?]
>>654287
It was a fucking clusterfuck.
The picture is an adaptation from the one included in Geoffrey Parker's book iirc.
>>654287
TELL ME ABOUT THIRTY YEARS WAR!!
WHY DOES HE WEAR THE MASK?
>>654287
>what kind of HRE do you want senpai?
>>654778
Biography of this badass dude or Wallenstein. Fuck protestants, catholics had the more interesting guys (including Richelieu here).
>>654976
But Richelieu threw his lot in with the protestants. But yes, he was a grade 10 badass.
>read about the european wars of religion
>initially sympathize with the protestants (underdogs, opressed, rebelling against authority, have legitimate greivances ect)
>the moment they have even the slightest bit of even footing they wind up being every bit as brutal and monstrous as the catholics
30 Years War is so goddamn depressing. I know it's a common statement that 'there are no good guys in war blah blah blah' but holy shit does that rule really apply 100% for this one.
>>654422
The Thirty Years War killed approx 10% of the population of the whole of Europe.
I will repeat that, approx 10% of the population of the whole of Europe.
The Thirty Years War was started on religious grounds, fact. I'll be open and honest and acknowledge that it morphed into a war that included state and nationalistic rivalries as part of the motivation of the combatants, but then again those rivalries were also mixed up with religious identifiers. Religious differences were a fundamental part of the motivations for the Thirty Years War, fact.
The Thirty Years War is clearly, CLEARLY, one of the most enormous disasters to ever impact on Europe. Just to put it into context 10% of the population of the whole of Europe today is over 70 million.
The Thirty Years War was worse than Communism, it was worse than Nazism, it was worse than than WW2 or WW1 in Europe.
AND it was caused by religion.
>>654408
The Habsburg needed to be dealt with, fuck the pope and praise muh raison d'Etat
t. Richelieu
>>655106
>AND it was caused by religion.
Don't you think it seemed likely that a war of its kind would of erupted without religion. Low crop yields, tension between n. and s. Europe plus unstable HRE 'government' (you know what I mean). Makes it likely that a war would of broken out anyway, but I dunno :l
>>654946
What about Bohemia? Also why is Saxony on the Imperial side when they were the reason why Gustavus Adolphus turned around from Vienna?
Please educate me
>>655190
Its certainly possible, even probable, but it certainly would not have been as bloody had religion not been involved.
Although still wouldve been pretty deadly.
>>654778
The Thirty Years War: Europe's Tragedy by Peter H. Wilson is pretty good if you're fine with 800+ page books. It gives a big-picture outlook, however, so if you're looking for detailed descriptions of particular campaigns it might not be what you're looking for.
It does spend about 250 pages just explaining the political situation in Europe though.
>>655193
Bohemia really only participated as its own power from 1618 to 1620, after which the Imperial/Liga forces had crushed them. Saxony was initially on the Imperial side, but thanks to the absurdly heavy-handed nature of the Edict of Restitution in 1629 (meant to punish the rebels and their supporters) and the devastation caused by Wallenstein, Saxony and much of the rest of Northern Germany turned against the Emperor once Sweden joined in.
>>654287
The French were not technically involved, were against 30 different states fighting each other, somehow managed to lose.
>>654287
Millions of Europeans dying because of bullshit
>>654332
Pretty sure he means in proportion to the population, not in absolute numbers
>>654950
Perhaps he's wondering why you wouldn't shoot a man before throwing him out of a window?
>>654778
You forgot the most important issue
>What if they had pickup trucks?
>>654993
>Offering Catholics anything better than Magdeburg Justice
>>655438
ehh depends on what exactly you consider the scope of the 30 Years Warto be. France did a couple of campaigns to the Rhine and even fought the Bavarians at one point IIRC.
>>655460
If only...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOJCmPKaYN8
>>655375
You just described the only kind of books worth reading. Books that focus on details are meant for retards. The big picture is al that's important in the end.
cant hold all these german refugees
>>655450
LOTTA LOYALTY FOR A HIRED GUN
>>655460
holy shit I remember seeing that book in the waiting room at my dentists office. I was reading the description of the plot on the back (a bunch of heavily armed american rednecks somehow go back in time by accident and wind up saving civilians from being massacred during the 30 years war) and just burst out laughing
I really wish I'd actually read it. It looks so fucking awesome
>>654287
it wasn't neither thirty
nor was it counted in years
nor was it a war
>>654993
Protestants by all comparison are fundementalists, akin to islamic Wahhabism
Protestantism Ruins Everything: The War.
>>655630
>nor was it a war
IT WAS A FIREFIGHT
>>654950
If I took that mask off, would you die?
>>655460
>>655504
>>655619
Holy shit I read the shit out of this series in middle and high school. Pretty good stuff from what I remember, my favorite was 1634 the baltic war with ironclads rekt Hamburg. Basic premise is the americans ally gustave adolph and the swedes. They are presented as good boys who dindu etc. Dont know how accurate that is. Pretty sure there are stull books being published, or short story compilations. Anyone else hear read this?
>>655603
ITS NOT ABOUT THE WAR
ITS ABOUT SENDING A MESSAGE
Wallenstein did nothing wrong
>>654308
Underrated post.
as usual the germanics showed they were good for only a few things:
destruction
savagery
barbarism
and exhaustively counting things
>>655649
It was a post dark age power vacuum left after Black Death filled with basically the exact same occult tendencies minus the Pope, which is why it fragmented and finally disintegrated. The Papacy is back to power levels it only dreamed of 4 centuries ago. History will probably repeat. The world always needs more history.
>>656991
Ehh all his means of procurement did was spread the devastation of the war to everyone and massively expand the size of the Imperial Army without really changing the amount of men they could bring to bear in a pitched battle.
Granted, he was quite a good general. But his "go get your pay from the nearest town" means of supplying his men was needlessly destructive.
Read CV Wedgewood's book. It's the most interesting and most relevant of all literature on the period.
>>657035
what the fuck is it with Germans and keeping very detailed documents of whomever they kill?
>>655106
The war wasnt about religion though. A lot of things can start a war, it doesnt mean they are the motivating factor between the war. Considering there were alliances between Protestants and Catholics to fight Catholics or Protestants. The conflict marked the beginning of a meme Nationalistic Identity that would influence the rest of the conflicts in history. To say the war was about religion is something only a credulous edgelord would believe
>>654379
>The Thirty Years' War just crushed German Liberties
It did the exact opposite.
>>655438
What? France massively supported the Protestant side, got Sweden to join, and then joined itself and fought the last 10 years, spectacularly defeating the Spanish and Austrians, asserting its military dominance, and turning Germany into a French protectorate.
France came out of the 30 Years War like America out of WW2, as the hegemonic power of a new Europe.
>>654293
Tell me EVERYTHING about the 30 Years War that you can fit into one post.
>>658314
All the germans died for no reason and it was super sad
>>658329
You could easily fit more into a post. Step it up sempai.
>>658349
I think that sums it up concisely. Less is more anon-kun.
>>658270
Delusion, the post.
>>655438
This is so wrong. The only country the 30-years-war benefited clearly was France, after the war they are the dominant political and military force in Europe all the way up to defeat of Napoleon.
>>654395
>le viking meme
pathetic
>>654308
kek
>>654966
JUST fuck my shit up!
>and so shit was fucked up
>>658270
war was a big factor in the conflict you cant deny that
A time of religion and war
Legends tell the tale of a lion
This beast in the shape of a man
With a dream to rule sea and land
And all those who stand in his way
Will die by God and victorious arms
With the righteous that follows him south
Once more set ashore to war
Legends have taught battles fought
This lion has no fear at heart
Lion come forth come from the north
Come from the noooorth
A storm over Europe unleashed
Dawn of war a trail of destruction
The power of Rome won't prevail
See the catholics shiver and shake
The future of warfare unveiled
Showed the way that we still walk today
>>659239
not until I have learned about Sabaton did I truly understand what "pleb tier music" meant
Swedish soldiers would yell Gott Amit Uns! God Is with Us, and outnumbered they still won
There is a famous quote by a guy about how he could ride for hours in war torn post conflict Germany and never meeting anyone alive.
>>654946
> dat pic
WTF was the emperor doing before 1618? Fighting himself?
>>659239
>Sabaton
>>659509
compared to Sabaton?
literally anything
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J---aiyznGQ
>>659530
> stop liking what I don't like
>>659362
it does not list all combatants of the war - 1618 was the time of the bohemian revolt
>>659536
I'm not telling anyone to stop liking anything. Just saying that Sabaton is the ultimate lowest common denominator plebery.
>>655438
France was actully pretty much the only country to win that clusterfuck of a war
>>655106
>AND it was caused by religion.
No
>>659544
>Im not telling you youre an idiot, just that your IQ is less than a bag of broken rocks.
>>654409
American detected.
>>657045
>dark age
Stop posting
>>659609
No he's telling you you're an idiot but you can be one if you want
>>654393
>France
>protestant
>>654300
LIES AND SLANDER
>29 years, 11 months, and 22 days
>>655178
>siding with protestants for any reason
I'm glad you're in hell
REEEEE HABSBURGS GET OUT
>People in this thread are calling the Swedish Social Democrats non-socialist instead of talking about the 30 Years War
How many of you people are Jewish?
>>660339
>all this jew hate
Martin Luther pls go. We all know this war was all your fault anyways.
>>659944
>there was not one
>not two
>but THREE defenestrations of prague
mfw
>>659239
>Sabaton
How anyone can listen to a bunch of Swedes with edgy war-glorifying lyrics and mediocre powermetal sounds will forever remain a mystery to me.
>>660556
They're like a sub-par Iron Maiden. I can't understand the appeal of them - they've got one catchy song, but most of their music is just boring.
>>660593
they appeal to the internet warrior/armchair general/vidyagaem history expert/wehraboo/simo hayha crowd
metal is already popular among people like that
metal about wars n shit? = OMG SO COOL
>>660601
ah yeah I guess that makes sense. Still, Iron Maiden does generally the same shit, but they actually make good music.
I guess they're just not wehraboo enough.
>>660509
http://strawpoll.me/6749028
>>662056
>>660601
>>660593
>>660556
>I deem myself qualified of putting forth objective standards for good taste in music : The Posts
I want underage cunts to leave and hang themselves.
>>660509
Well I mean how else are you supposed to show your displeasure for government officials?
>>662110
hitting a bit close to home, m8?
This picture summarizes the war quite adequately
>>662136
What a long way from Otto I
>>655193
>Bohemia
started the whole thing, but most of the other protestant countries refused to help in the early stages of the war (except Palatinate, Bohemian estates elected Elector Palatine as their new king) and got defeated
>Saxony
Saxony made peace with emperor and was bribed by originally Bohemian Lusatia in 1635
>>658211
>CV Wedgewood's book
A someone who went in with no prior knowledge I really felt there needed to be 100 pages dedicated just to all the leaders/prominent people involved.
>>654287
Sabaton made some badass songs about the 30 years war:
https://youtu.be/Hj22oyspDT8?list=PLplyGFG2whENEY233ePRU3i6AkRLVyKtI
>>663071
This song is about Charles XII however, he was coronated almost half a century after the conclusion of the 30 Years War.
>>663041
definitely check out the one by Peter H. Wilson then. It still gets confusing at the end because all the "main" characters die off, but the guy spends 260 pages explaining the situation behind every belligerent and the general situation leading up to war.
>>662661
>implying it wasn't Germany who got JUST the most
>>655193
Yeah the picture is stupid.
>Bohemia not mentioned
>fucking Russia is
>>654308
no it was about abolishing slavery you nit.
I mean he came in at the end but he was the ultimate winner right?
>>666544
In the long term, probably. It seems like Prussia's rise to power can generally be traced back to the advantageous position they found themselves in in 1648.
>>654395
It's true, honostly Charles the eighth can be seen as the cause if sweetens current state with his campaigns and strategies.
The war was an enormous clusterfuck. I'm surprised half the belligerents could even remember which side they were supposed to be representing at the treaty negotiations.
>>670021
I'm more surprised they could even afford it all. Everyone was spending well beyond their means for the entire war and pretty much the entire thing ran on credit, despite the fact that nobody could reasonably afford to repay their loans. I don't understand how the hell it could be sustained for that long.
>>670068
With that I'm surprised the war didn't end with everyone calling up their levies to kill the mercenaries so they didn't need to pay them.
Atrocities that makes ISIS look like amateurs.
>>656744
Yup, 1632 is my favorite book.
>>654287
Protestants fucked up everything and good men and women of Europe died because Martin Luther was a shit eating faggot
>>670616
This.
>>670559
ehh that probably had a lot to do with keeping confidence in the government to allow the loans to continue as well as the fairly amicable terms of the Peace of Westphalia.
Suddenly deciding you're going to kill a bunch of people you owe money is going to make all your creditors pretty nervous and far less willing to lend to you again. Plus, who are you going to kill all those mercenaries with? Local levies weren't going to be enough to face the mercenaries, particularly in the more devastated regions.
Really the way the peace treaty handled it was probably the best - have the troops just garrisoned on location until they could be paid off and demobilized.
>>671045
killing the guys who are killing raping looting burning pillageing your people/land seems pretty justifiable. i'm sure creditors would understand
>s a nation, Sweden had been at war since 1600. Therefore, she was forced to develop her natural resources. The nation’s normal revenue for 1620 would have been 1.5 million silver thaler. This was insufficient to sustain an input into war. To raise revenue, Gustavus Adolphus sold off or pawned crown land and by 1650, 60% of what had been ancient royal taxes were in private hands.
>Sweden also exploited to the full her excellent copper and iron deposits which found a ready market in Europe. Another way Sweden found to reduce her war costs was to train her army to live off of the land thereby reducing the supply issue for an army on the march.
>Spain had had serious financial problems during the reign of Philip II, but by one way or another, she managed to muddle her way through the Thirty Years War regardless of the further financial problems she had to face.
> In 1627, Spain was bankrupt. To counter this, Spain took to minting copper coins called vellon. These had much less value that silver coins. Ironically, the copper for the vellon came from Protestant Sweden and the purchase of this commodity did a great deal to boost Sweden’s economy.
>>670616
Butthurt papist
Go worship your statues
>>670616
I don't think he was planning on this happening
>>671080
It wasn't exactly that simple - the pillaging for the most part was the result of the procurement system that was standard for the time.
Outside of a few unfortunate cases (Magdeburg being one of the more extreme cases), it wasn't just outright pillaging, but rather an army coming upon a town and requesting some kind of payment, with the damage done largely being either sanctioned by the government the army belonged to or the endemic kind of damage you see happen with large groups of soldiers at the time.
They couldn't reasonably persecute former soldiers for the damage done by the war because rulers weren't able to distance themselves from the culpability. In the eyes of the people, those men were arguably no more responsible for the atrocities committed than anyone else who bankrolled the war, so it'd be pretty easy to make the logical leap from going after former soldiers to going after creditors, especially when it meant getting rid of your debts.
>>670616
Honestly, protestantism wouldn't even exist if the pope wasn't a total cunt to Luther who got offended by the idea that you maybe shouldn't fucking sell people their place into heaven or that people should be allowed to hear in Bible in their own fucking language.
>>671134
That is a lie the selling of indulgences was nowhere near as widespread as Luther would have you believe
>>671134
>The Church approved of the selling of indulgences
>there werent vernacular Bibles
is this Shitty Claims 101?
>>658254
A victory without correct statistics is worse than a well documented defeat!
If we neglect order because of fighting it would not be a victory anyways, since we have foresaken ourselves.
An Endsieg with untidy or non-existent paperwork ist just French.
>>670616
Well it's a fact that he did eat shit but he wasn't a faggot
>>655450
>Perhaps he's wondering why you wouldn't shoot a man before throwing him out of a window?
They were held aloft by angels!
>>660509
>>654393
Bohemia, Eastern Germany and Transylvania you monumental simpleton.
>>666599
While Brandenburg was in a favourable position following the treaty of Westphalia they had suffered immensely during the war. So much that some regions like the Uckermark had become virtually deserted.
Berlin lost about half its original population and many steps were taken to repopulate the country, including the settlement of 20k religious refugees from France. By 1700 about a quarter of Berlin's population was of French origin.
>>672287
>communism caused non-religiousness in Bohemia, Eastern Germany and Transylvania
>>672324
In Eastern Germany it absolutely, demonstrably did.
>>672283
>vyoknění
>national sport
>>671089
>training her army to live off the land
>live off the land
>training
>>654443
>Sweden is socialist
>Market economy
>Private property
Yeah okay, retard
