How much of medieval English nobility was Anglo Norman? I'm not talking about just high lords, but knights as well. When did native nobility supercede the Anglo Norman one? What proportion of English knights had completely Anglo lineage?
>>877689
>How much of medieval English nobility was Anglo Norman?
Very very little of it. Literally within 20 years the entire Saxon aristocracy that had been in power for centuries had been completely destroyed.
>When did native nobility supercede the Anglo Norman one?
They just interbred with each other, there weren't very many Normans in England to begin with despite the memes, it literally took 50 years before the Normans evaporated as a separate class in England. Names are often used as evidence for that.
>What proportion of English knights had completely Anglo lineage?
>ever trying to get figures
Basically all English nobility after 1066 was French.
Look at the ancestry of any of the British aristocratic houses, it will almost always be of French descent, including the houses created after 1066.
>>878931
The Normans, and the Plantaganets and their cadet branches were of French descent. The Tudors had the blood of the Capet's via that wife of Henry V, but they came from Wales mostly
>>878955
The Tudors came to being when Catherine of Valois (widow of Henry V) fucked a random Welsh courtier, and the resulting bastard son was made Earl of Richmond (and later married Margaret Beaufort and their son became Henry VII). That's the only way in which the Tudors are "Welsh", aside from that their ancestry was entirely French.
>>877689
This question can broke into two parts: how did the Anglo nobility make it pass the years of 1066 to 1070, and how much in the way of Anglos move up into the nobility after the fact? For the first part wiki has
" Following the conquest, the Anglo-Saxon nobility were either exiled or joined the ranks of the peasantry.[106] It has been estimated that only about 8 per cent of the land was under Anglo-Saxon control by 1087.[107] Many Anglo-Saxon nobles fled to Scotland, Ireland, and Scandinavia.[108][109] The Byzantine Empire became a popular destination for many Anglo-Saxon soldiers, as the Byzantines were in need of mercenaries.[110] The Anglo-Saxons became the predominant element in the elite Varangian Guard, hitherto a largely North Germanic unit, from which the emperor's bodyguard was drawn and continued to serve the empire until the early 15th century.[111]"
The Normans almost wholly displaced the native nobility. As for Anglo Normans moving up to the station of lower nobility... we know it happened just not to what level.
>>878891
> Names are often used as evidence for that.
I have seen that used on the matter, but it does not take in account of people changing names. It is rather common if someone tries to work inside a community that uses a different language, especially if it is hard for speaker of that language to say the old name mostly correctly.
>>880271
It's interesting that the alien class wasn't expelled or annihilated after the Hundred Years War. From 1066 to 1453, England was merely a cash cow for Normans, Bretons, Flemings, Angevins, and other continental interlopers.
I find it really funny when films and TV series depict "Englishmen" as knights and lords when in fact, the vast majority were French-speaking emigrants.
>>880321
The baronage was pretty much entirely anglicized by 1200 though
>>878931
Wasn't the West Saxon royal family allowed to stay in place after William took over though?
>>880321
It faded pretty quick famalam, John blew William Longchamp the fuck out because he was a Norman and couldn't speak English.
>>881812
it's not like West Saxons did anything substantial after 1066
>>877689
Look at the names.
Some are Norman or French in origin even though the name itself is high anglicized
>>880321
>I find it really funny when films and TV series depict "Englishmen" as knights and lords when in fact, the vast majority were French-speaking emigrants.
The part that make the matter a little fuzzy is that the offspring of those French-speaking emigrants started to speak English over time and to start to view themselves as English. As >>881785 pointed out the lower ranks of the nobility anglicized in under a 140 years even with a new royal house coming in from France in 1189. It took longer to for the high culture to anglicized. That started in 1250.
>>878931
>The Normans were French
They were literally Nords
>>878891
>Very very little of it. Literally within 20 years the entire Saxon aristocracy that had been in power for centuries had been completely destroyed.
Are you illiterate? He was asking about ANGLO NORMANS- AKA Norman nobility that became the new ruling class of Britain and bred with the Saxons, Irish, and Scots. Much of the nobility in the conquered England state was Anglo-Norman.
>>882661
Genetically the original Normans were probably Danes of some description. However, by the time William took England, they had been interbreeding with the French nobility long enough that, aside from their penchant for mercenary work and sending invasionary forces every which way, they were just another subset of the French. They spoke French, were practicing Christians, and had cultural traditions that, at that point, were far more French than they were Norse.
>French
>not a paneuropean clusterfuck
Being French is as meaningful as being 'American'. And yes, this applies to the Middle Ages as well.
The history of England is just a case of one ruling class taking over the nation repeatedly, causing a new culture each time.
First you have the original true native Britons, whoever they were, neolithic peoples.
The Celts come in and establish themselves as the ruling class, their culture becomes dominant.
The Romans come in and establish themselves as the ruling class, their culture becomes dominant.
The Anglo-Saxons come in and establish themselves as the ruling class, their culture becomes dominant.
The Vikings come in and establish themselves as the ruling class, their culture becomes dominant in parts.
The Normals come in and establish themselves as the ruling class, their culture becomes dominant.
>The Normals come in and establish themselves as the ruling class, their culture becomes dominant.
That why we're speaking French right now? Huh?
>>883536
The language we speak now is drastically different to Anglo Saxon language thanks to the Normans.
Being culturally dominant doesnt always mean the native language disappears, it can merge.
>>883480
By the middle ages, the French weren't as homogenized as they were today, neither in culture nor in ethnicity. For much of the early middle ages, the French from the north referred to the Occitans as "Romans", and peasants from the Vendée might not have been able to understand peasants from the Picardie, nor would a Gascon count have considered himself the same as a Breton.
>>883539
Not really desu. French influence is completely overstated.
>>883619
Looks pretty important to me. While it may not be the majority of the words, it is the majority of the words with meaning, I'm not a linguist, i don't know the term, but it seems old English is mostly the connecting parts of English
>>877689
>How much of medieval English nobility was Anglo Norman?
Most of it.
>When did native nobility supercede the Anglo Norman one?
This never happened. England is, to this day, mostly still owned by the same Norman and Breton families who came over with William.
>What proportion of English knights had completely Anglo lineage?
Low, possibly 0%. Even those English lords who kept their positions under the Normans quickly intermarried with the rulers as soon as they could.
>>883525
This is pretty accurate. People wonder why Bongs were so good at conquering people, it's because they have a long history of it happening to them.
>>877689
Lower gentry and Middle-class contained lots of Flemish too. Lots came to Britain as mercenaries or merchants. These folks also had a hand in the creation of what would become English.
>>878891
>What proportion of English knights had completely Anglo lineage?
not very many...probably more "Welsh" among the knights than "English" due to the former being used widely as men-at-arms or mercenaries, but even these guys were mostly hybrid Norman-welsh or Flemish-welsh.
Probably had a fair number of English (or at least folks with English ancestors) end up as knights in Scandinavia or the Baltic after 1066 though.
>>883757
A lot of Dutch came to England in the 18th century to drain the great mashes that had hitherto occupied large parts of Eastern England. Most of the villages and towns you find out in what was once the fens are built in the Dutch manner, with all the houses side-by-side in a straight row, facing the main throufare.
>>883780
>probably more "Welsh" among the knights than "English"
Funny factoid: The French don;t distinguish between the Celts of Brittany and those of Britain, they call them both "Bretons". A large number of Williams knights were Breton so in an odd sense, "Welsh" nobles did and indeed do still rule over English and Welsh lands, thanks to William.
>>883783
he was talking about 1066, when flemish mercenaries were used by william the conqueror to bolster his ranks. Many later settled in wales, which is why us flemish people and welsh people have an abnormal amount of the same blood type (don't ask me which one, I forgot)
