I heard the argument that religion really was a valuable mechanism because something something Jung. Further it was claimed that people "just don't get" if they reject religion based upon superficial inconsistencies, or rather; taking it's doctrine literally.
Anyhow, I get that religion provided a shared experience that ultimately unified tribes and so on through rituals, but in this day in age it seems like it's only providing a fast food version of catharsis at best, or empty formalism at worst.
Why would the modern, intellectually enlightened individual need religion. If I want catharsis I can find it myself, while the enlightenment provides a common set of values. Not because of those have been dictated by god but because they have been proven to be beneficial individually, on a collective basis.
>>608419
Well you need to actually read Jung. Jung is saying religion is the symbolic expression of the subconscious. The symbols relate to deeply rooted subconscious expressions, whether the conscious mind literally believes the symbols or says 'it's only a metaphor' the spiritual process is still there.
And no you don't get a choice about whether to have it or not. Become an 'atheist' and the subconscious symbol just takes another form. One moment you think you are totaly in control and being logical the next moment the Goddess, the Trickster, or some other arch-type expresses itself in something you are perceiving and you think "aha this is important".
>>609067
If everything was influenced by the subconsciousness I would argue we could just substitute religion with movies and nothing of value would be lost. At least it's clear you're dealing with fiction even though it might be an expression of the human experience.
I don't like the idea of defending religion like that because believers, the majority I reckon, takes religion literally. In case of Islam for instance, the results aren't really positive for anymore. Most of the times when people consider religions to be metaphorical it seems because they had been debunked in one way or another, and it's the only way to keep it going.
Joseph Campbell was inspired by Jung too I believe. In 'The Hero with a Thousand Faces' he talked about how some Aboriginal tribes used to cut a symbolic vagina between anus and the male genitals, as some rite of passage. I'm less touched by this than him apparently. Sure it might transform the consciousness of young men, but then humanity managed to carry on without such rituals.
>>609155
You have an incredibly narrow view of what supposedly benefits humanity.
>>609202
You mean... like religion?
>>609443
You're never going to get it.
Religion involves in a suspension of disbelief beyond the notion of the system of morals or communities.
In its very core is the willingness to not be certain about something and this necessary part of uncertainty is that which makes it so important. There cannot be a people without some kind of religion. If not a religion involving a god than a religion involving in some "non-solvable" idea like karma.
It is the need to be "un-sure" that makes it so pluralistic.
>>609501
Eh, I suppose not. I hope you have fun sitting in church, I'm sure you'll get it. I congratulate for getting up on sunday morning to experience human archetypes in action. Like listening to some fag who interprets ancient pulp for you.
>>609517
Not trying to shitpost on this one, but why shouldn't it be possible to exist without some kind of religion? And how do you define it personally? Does it have to be organized?
Evola was right. OP proves it.
>>609155
Do you really, honestly think if we replaced thousands of years of wisdom literature with fuckin MOVIES nothing would change? And did you really just say humans had gotten along just fine without rituals for most of history? Please show me the evidence for this magical rationalist utopia that supposedly existed before we decided to collectively hang up our fedoras and believe in an intelligence at the root of the universe.
Yuppie retard, it's bozos like you with your buzzfeed-tier grasp of complex topics and your virulent fucking autism that's degenerated the level of discourse on this board to reddit slop. Read a book nigga and go outside
>>609555
1 they don't call capitalism a religion without irony
2 there are religion that which is accepted and there are religions that are hidden, and to give it a name to call it a religion would be to much of a hassle to defend
3 the accepted ones are organized, it is basically an external expression of recognition
to be a people is to subscribe to a notion of belonging, this system of belief is what makes it a people
religion is beyond the faith in that it is that which expressed, through the expression you find like-ness in others
>>609590
>thousands of years of wisdom
Like what? You find about as much wisdom in Game of Thrones lore.
>>609592
But then you might argue that the scientific method could determine a new, shifting religion. On the basis of what's actually true, or at least probable. If I know what's in the fridge because I opened it I don't need faith in it's contents.
>>609590
>Still acting like there's any hope left
Embrace the ending. This is the time of beast.
>>609155
If we take the idea that a religion is there to get communicate messages using subconscious language than the natural conclusion is that religions need to evolve with their society.
Joseph Campbell once said that all the old religions claims about science or morality were "true for their time". The trouble is when doesn't evolve and the messages become at worst dangerous and backwards and at best spirtually bankrupt and meaingless.
It is true that things like movies can fufill many of the functions of the religion, that of being a home for the various symbols and subconscious playgrounds. However the thing about religions is they can operate on a much more powerful level. With movies you go in believing they are not true, with religion you go in believing it is true.
>>609599
Does Game of Thrones lore teach you how to tame harmful desires? Or acceptance of Unacceptable situations? How about learning how to curb excess greed in your life and find contentment with little?
>>608419
Religion is about application, if you aren't willing to use it what it's for, then you sit there doing nothing.
Non-religious "intellectualism" is the same thing, if you are going to come sidereal religious sources good for you, if not, then you are ignorant and as dumb as you percieve the religious.
>>609609
No, scientific method is basically the ability to prove an assumption
How does one prove that capitalism is an end to itself
The proof would last just as long as capitalism
>>609599
>This is what fedoratippers actually believe
Repent. The end is nigh.
>>609617
Don't bother you're arguing with a straight up reddit yard. Game of thrones lmfao
>>609617
Does Christianity?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2681472/She-dropped-Godly-protection-moment-Friend-reveals-Magaluf-girl-family-born-Christians-FORGIVEN-organiser-event-claims-doesnt-know-fuss-about.html
Assigning guilt assigned by the Creator of the Universe itself to every little thing just causes people to go off the rails much more than an a more reasonable and sensible understanding of the world.
>>609641
If you genuinely think not committing sin is about guilt then you have a Sunday school-tier level of understanding of religion.
>>609631
I might be wrong but I think science is more about falsifying false assumptions through experiment rather than validating them. Religion says if you don't throw the virgin in the volcano it will break out.
I also didn't say captalism was an end to itself. I don't even think economics is really scientific.
>>609617
It might. Personally I believe it teaches you about as much a religion, barely anything. At least when it comes to real life decisions. If you need god or some other supernatural threat to be a "nice" person you aren't really worth saving. At the end of the day we all just face ordinary reality.
>>609612
So religion is basically dead when people become self-aware about it?
>>609663
In any case you are picking on religion that are provably false which makes this debate a bit meaningless
As I said in its core is the ability to suspend, if it doesn't then it falls apart
>>609649
If you genuinely think a philosophy that tells you everything is bad makes people act more morally or sensibly then you are wrong.
http://www.siecus.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=Feature.showFeature&featureID=1831
>>609663
>If you need god or some other supernatural threat to be a "nice" person you aren't really worth saving
>>609685
But it literally doesn't teach that
>>609685
Alan Watts joked about religion essentially just being a tool to make sex more interesting.
>>609663
>game of thrones teaches you how to tame harmful desires and be a better person
Millenials folks. Getting there philosophy of life from escapist entertainment. Embarrassing
>>609697
Sure.
>>609704
Hey man, Rob Stark died because he neglected his duties as King of the North and married some foreign nurse just to get his dick wet. If he had tamed his sexual desire he would be still alive and kicking with the Frey cutie as cherry on top.
Tell me how Abraham sacrificing his kid, because a voice nobody else could hear told him so, was teaching you valuable life lessons? He wasn't even punished for it, but rewarded with god's trust. Would you sacrifice your kid if god told you so?
>>609734
First, read Kierkegaard. Second, the Bible isn't just stories about the patriarchs. And third, religion isn't just the Bible.
>>609734
If God proved Himself to be real beyond all manner of doubt, then the logical conclusion to that is the afterlife is real and that death is nothing to be feared.
>>609743
Do you have any opinions of your own?
>>609757
>you shall not kill
What the problem if nothing is to be feared?
>>609758
Do you think I'm going to sit here and walk you through what I see in spirituality, dude? A guy who thinks game of thrones can be just as enriching as the best spiritual and philosophical writings across history? You're dreaming
>>609764
Death still causes grief and suffering. Even the holiest of saints and bravest of people still feel pain when they lose someone.
>>609743
>First, read Kierkegaard
Or a good philisopher.
>the Bible isn't just stories about the patriarchs.
It does have a nice story about a talking donkey in it, Harry Potter might have more intellectual value though.
>And third, religion isn't just the Bible.
Religion only distracts, with silly old nonsense, from serious issues like meditation and understanding your place in the Universe.
>>609779
>philisopher
Meditating and understanding your place in the universe is exactly what real religion is you retard. Stop flailing at strawmen
>>609768
It's not my fault you seem to be unable to extract life lessons from fiction. Which is ironic because that's what you're trying to justify. Point is, you can read a 1000 books about philosophy and everything still boils down to, don't be a cunt, wash yourself behind the ears, or, when in doubt you might should rethink what you're about to do. It's basically a really really elaborate way to say something trivial.
>>609788
No, dude. We're not going to do this. I'm not gonna sit here and listen to you telling me philosophy is just wash behind the ears while touting game of thrones as intellectually fucking nuanced. You have literally no idea what you're talking about. BTW having the discernment to find even escapist fiction philosophically educational is exactly what real philosophy primes you to do, and isn't mutually exclusive . Go back to fucking reddit
>>609788
That said I unironically believe the work of Shakespeare is more valuable than most of what religion has to offer.
>>609797
Did Jesus tell you to not back up your words?
>>609783
>Meditating and understanding your place in the universe is exactly what real religion is you retard.
No it isn't.
It is believing in a load of old rubbish that gets in the way of those activities.
>>609788
How do you know how not to be a cunt though? What about morally grey situations in life with no clear answer? WHY should you wash yourself behind the ears?
>>609806
Dude, you have no fixing fucking idea what you're talking about. Go listen to about 40 hours of Alan Watts then tell me you learnt absolutely nothing.
>>609812
Being liked increases your chances of survival and being nice towards others encourages others to be nice to you. I would call it an evolutionary ceasefire in a sense, or at least pacified aspect of the game.
Washing yourself decreases the chances of getting sick and getting laid.
>>609817
What are you?
>>609827
>evolutionary psychology
>this obviously photoshopped unnatural creepy face is unsettling because it like reminds you of tigers lmfao
Top tip m8
>>609827
*increases chances of getting laid unless you're into new age.
>>609788
Maximum plebeian.
>>609886
Say what you will but all the philosophers were just ordinary people with ordinary vices taking dumps in the morning. Even if they had a point they aren't living up to their own advise. Kinda like priests. The only valuable result has been the scientific methods and encouraging thinking for yourself. But in terms of the latter philosophy is dead because it developed it's own clergy that encrypts their knowledge to justify their own existence through an artificial demand.
>>609932
>scientific method can tell you how to live a good life
>thinking yourself while being another cookie cutter euphoric drone
Sure thing m8
>>609817
Like Real Marxism? I guess it has just never been tried.
Kek.
>>609965
>what is askesis
>>609827
Religion isn't just about survival. Survival is just there for us to experience life. It's all empty and meaningless in the end. Empty and meaningless in its emptiness and meaninglessness. Religion came up with that
>>609994
I'd say it's the other way around. We only experience life because of survival.
>>609961
Science isn't supposed to tell you how to live life but to allow you make informed decisions in terms of the predictability of outcomes. If you think Religion is a better way to determine how to live you're delusional.
