I'm asking here because /x/ flew into its normal clustercuck of trolling, schizophrenic rambling, roleplaying, and wishful thinking.
What did people historically think magic & sorcery was like?
I see vague references to it in the old legends, and apparently people made up elaborate rituals based on it.
Everything from curse tablets, to true names, to enochian, to divination, to shamans, to goetia, to hermeticism, to druids, to voodoo, etc.
This is purely academic interest.
>>587713
Turk here in general a lot of people still believe in magic but its generally seen as something you shouldn't dabble in as it is sinful and as you can get the attention of harmful spirits. Don't know if its true but I heard from some very reasonable people that they have seen some weird shit. Generally it has been like this all the way back to the ittomans and probably before.
>>587713
Magic and religion and medicine are intertwined to the point of being near inseperable for most of human history.
>>587738
Are there any survivals of shamanism in turkish folklore? Or is it mostly about getting djinn to do your bidding now?
Does the mediterranean idea of "the evil eye" exist in Turkey?
I have studied it for a quite a while and have mixed opinions on the epic when it comes to authenticity, but for the most part it was seen with negative connotations, most people were very superstitious as is to be expected
If we can keep /x/ernins out, I'm in. What did people consider to be magic anyway? From the Bible and a writings on necromancy(scholarly term referring to magic generally at the time, not just raising the dead) from the medieval period, it seems like any intentional human act -without overt intervention from God- that indirectly affect or change an outcome to what isn't considered natural would be considered magic. Because of this, most forms of magic wasn't that big a deal most of the time and was just a handy trick.
>>587777
The evil eye definitely exists it can affect you when jealous people want something you have it can go from material things like a nice car to things like succes or happiness. Generally thete isn't much shamanic magic slive but there are many old turkic customs and old anatolian customs fused with islam mainly for getting good luck or protection from bad luck.
>>587929
I meant the idea of evil eye btw but still a lot of people believe it I personally don't know but I am not going to automatically call it bullshit.
Is Taoism the Chinese version of magic? How could I become a Taoist?
I'm no longer tied to the reservation or old way, but in those places medicine and witchcraft are still very real.
If you aren't in the loop it's just better to stay out of it, desu. I can't be considered Indian because I live outside this.
In the book 'Black Elk Speaks', he recalls using gunpowder (and going blind) in a fire to give the illusion of spirits. So it doesn't strike me as particularly surprising showmanship was a big part of medicine rituals.
As with most old-world religions the spirit world and real world are seamlessly intertwined, with real-world locations, objects, and ideas having extreme spiritual value/spirits. It's a lifestyle, not just a 'religion' to dabble in.
So I'm no expert but from what my mother taught me: All things, especially medicine, has a spirit and should be respected as such. Prayer is communication to these things, you ask them to help you. A medicine man is the intermediate between these things, and can communicate with the great creator. Tobacco (which is very sacred) and the pipe ceremony is YOUR direct communication with the great creator, it's your 'visible voice'. If you live your life according to these things you will be blessed, and have a community to rely on. Rituals are your ties to the spiritual world, and there are many rituals you must participate in throughout your life.
Now witchcraft, there is no appointed 'ritual' for these things, and it's not something that is discussed. But from what I've seen it's nihilistic self-destruction. Despair, drug abuse, alcoholism and physical abuse, refusing to change spiritual sickness. It's a rejection of the traditional way, it bears no life only takes it away; to put it lightly It's insanity.
I could be wrong and of course traditions and spirituality varies from people to people, this is just my understanding of the metaphysical beliefs of the Lakota people.
>>587777
Another Turk here, we have many shaman traditions still alive practiced widely today, such as:
Spilling water to ground after someone leaving for a long trip. It is some kind of spell to make his/her journey without an accident.
Boiling lead over someone's head to get rid of bad spirits and evil eyes of others. (mom did to me when i was little)
Red ribbons are widely used such as on wedding dresses, between rings in engagement ceremonies, on collars of children who just learned to read. It was used to avoid bad spirits in central asia.
Dog's howling is considered ominous.
Blue beads are everywere to avoid evil eye.
Our carpet motifs in shape of harmful animals like scorpions, snakes etc. It was to keep them away.
Singing religious songs after dead. It is done in name of islam but it is considered definetly un-islamic in every other muslim country.
Holding your head while drinking water. This is pretty stupid. Shamans believed your mind can leave your head while you are drinking water so they held their head. Today some people do it but i don't think they believe their mind would fly away from their heads.
Water bowls on graves: Shaman Turks put water bowls on their graves, aiming to dead drink it when it get thirsty. It is still practiced today but everyone does it in sake of birds drink it or bath in it.
Turks still act like god is on sky, pointing sky while talking about god etc. while it is really really unislamic.
Some people still thinks walking out a room with right foot is bad luck. Left was good and right was evil in shaman beliefs. (exact opposite in islam)
Knotting rags on trees and making a wish. (pic related) This is practiced widely.
Sacred numbers. Turks think numbers 7, 40 and 21 are sacred while it is completely unislamic. When someone dies people gather to
memorialize him/her or when a child borns it is celebrated in his 7th and 40th day. Shamans believed the dead's soul left his/her house 40 days after he died.
>>588016
Forgot the pic, lol
>>588016
According to pic related, at least in the rennaissance, 'magic' was a precursor to modern advertising, propaganda and psychology.
magic = astrotheology
i just told you something you have to study 30 years to maybe lucky to find out
>>587713
Things like fasting, meditation, sensory deprivation, repetitive rhythms from chanting or instruments, lucid dreaming,
medicinal herbs and psychoactive plants can go a long ways, especially when multiple of these are combined and incorporated in the same religious/shamanic/belief system as they usually are. Also, what this poster said >>587775.
Some researchers have found that people who know each other who are both proficient in lucid-dreaming can have mutual lucid dreams and wake up and write down the same events that happen without communication with eachother, basically a form of telepathic communication through lucid dreaming. Stuff like that alone can convince people its magic especially when its taught to people in a tribal society by a shaman etc. Its no surprise that lucid dreaming is a feature of multiple indigenous shamanic practices.
As for my own experiences I can say that I have seen on multiple occasions doors open or close and lock themselves in a complete violation of the laws of physics and for no apparent reason so I am open to the idea that spirits etc are real.
>>587940
>become a Taoist
lol
just read the Dao de Jing and then Zhuangzi and then the I Ching.
>>588039
Is "the manipulator" and feels guy related?
>>587777
check'd
>>588080
Is this image meant to be horribly disturbing?
>>587775
I disagree. They're related but hardly inseparable.
>>587940
>Is Taoism the Chinese version of magic?
What Hermetic orders were to the west, Taoist sorcerers were to the east
>>588016
[wanting to know more intensifies]
>>588016
>when a child borns
cute
In Ireland the magic wielded by women was seen as equally dangerous as that of the Druids. Even St. Patrick was wary of the "spells of women" or brichta ban.
And after the Druids had passed away similar stuff (power over the weather, the use of incantations and amulets, shape-shifting and invisibility, etc.) were for the longest time in remote Celtic regions, ascribed to witches.
Much of the Druid art, however, was also supposed to be possessed by saints and clerics, both in the past and in near recent times. But women remained as magicians when the Druids had disappeared, partly because of female conservatism, partly because, even in pagan times, they had worked more or less secretly. Eventually the church proscribed them and persecuted them.
Each clan, tribe, or kingdom had its Druids, who, in time of war, assisted theirallies by magical arts. This is seen in the mythological cycle, each of which has its Druids who play no small part in the battles fought. Though Pliny recognised the Priestly functions of the Druids, he associated them largely with magic, and applied the name magus to them.
In irish religious literature we used "drui" to translate "magus" such as in the case of the Egyptian sorcerers from Exodus. Magi was used in the Latin lives of the saints as a synonym for "druides". In the sagas and in popular tales Druidecht, "Druidism," stands for "magic," and slat an draoichta, "rod of Druidism," is a magic wand. The Tuatha Dé Danann were said to have learned "Druidism" from the four great master Druids of the region from where they had come to Ireland, and even now, in popular tales, they are often called "Druids" or "Danann Druids."
The Druid Cathbad covered the plain over which Deirdre was escaping with "a great-waved sea." Druids also produced blinding snow-storms or changed day into night, feats ascribed to them even in the Lives of Saints. Or they discharged "shower-clouds of fire" on the opposing warriors, as in the case of the Druid Mag Ruith, who made a magic fire, and flying upwards towards it, turned it upon the enemy, whose Druid couldn't divert it. When the Druids of Cormac dried up all the waters in the land, another Druid shot an arrow, and where it fell there came a torrent of water. The Druid Mathgen bragged of being able to throw mountains on the enemy, and frequently Druids made trees or stones appear as armed men, dismaying the opposing force in this way. They could also fill the air with the clash of battle, or with the dreadful cries of "eldritch beings". Similar powers are ascribed to other persons. The daughters of Calatin raised themselves on an enchanted wind, and found Cú Chulainn when he was hidden away by Cathbad. Later they produced a magic mist to discomfit the hero.
Such mists occur frequently in the sagas, and in one of them the Tuatha Dé Danann arrived in Ireland. The priestesses of Sena could rouse sea and wind by their enchantments, and, later, Celtic witches claimed the same power.
In folk practices rainmaking was connected with sacred springs. And as late as 1911 in rural France processions marched to shrines, usually connected with a holy well, common in times of drought. Thus people and priest went to the fountain of Baranton, singing hymns, and praying for rain. The priest then dipped his foot in the water, or threw some of it on the rocks. In other cases the image of a saint was carried to a well and asperged, as divine images formerly were, or the waters are beaten or thrown into the air.
Another custom was that a virgin should clean out a sacred well, and before she had to be nude. Nudity also formed part of an old ritual used in Gaul. In time of drought the girls of the village followed the youngest virgin in a state of nudity to seek the herb belinuntia. This she uprooted, and was then led to a river and there asperged by the others. In this case the asperging imitated the falling rain, and was meant to produce it automatically. While some of these rites suggest the use of magic by the folk themselves, in others the presence of the Christian priest points to the fact that, formerly, a Druid was the rain producer. In some cases the priest has inherited through long ages the rain-making or storm-quelling powers of the pagan priesthood, and was often sought to exercise them.
Causing invisibility by means of a spell called feth fiada, which made a person unseen or hid him in a magic mist, was also used by the Druids as well as by Christian saints. S. Patrick's hymn, called Fâed Fiada, was sung by him when his enemies lay in wait, and caused a glamour in them. The incantation itself, fith-fath, is still remembered in Highland glens. In the case of S. Patrick he and his followers appeared as deer, and this power of shape-shifting was wielded both by Druids and women. The Druid Fer Fidail carried off a maiden by taking the form of a woman, and another Druid deceived Cú Chulainn by taking the form of the fair Niamh. Other Druids are said to have been able to take any shape that pleased them.
By a "drink of oblivion" Druids and other folk could make one forget even the most dearly beloved. Thus Cú Chulainn was made to forget Fand, and his wife Emer to forget her jealousy.
In the Rennes Dindsenchas one man says spells over his spear and hurls it into his
opponent's shadow, so that he falls dead. Another ability was "sending" a wisp of straw which the Druid sang spells over before throwing it into the enemy's face and driving them insane.
A special posture was used (standing on one leg, with one arm outstretched and one eye closed, perhaps to concentrate the force of the spell) but the power lay mainly in the spoken words. Such spells were also used by the Filid, or poets. Part of the training of the bard consisted in learning traditional incantations, which, used with due ritual, produced the magic result. Some of the verses which Cæsar says the Druids would not commit to writing were of the nature of spells. The power of the spell lay in the spoken formula, usually introducing the name of a god or spirit, later a saint, in order to procure his intervention, through the power inherent in the name. Other charms recount an effect already produced, and this, through memetic magic, is supposed to cause its repetition. The earliest written documents on the paganism of the insular Celts contain an appeal to "the science of Goibniu" to preserve butter, and another, for magical healing foes "I admire the healing which Diancecht left in his family, in order to bring health to those he succoured." These are found in an eighth or ninth century MS., and, with their appeal to pagan gods, were used in Christian times.
Most Druidic magic was accompanied by a spell (transformation, invisibility, power over the elements, and the discovery of hidden persons or things.) In other cases spells were used in medicine or for healing wounds. Thus the Tuatha Dé Danann told the Fomorians that they didn't need to oppose them, because their Druids would restore the slain to life, and when Cú Chulainn was wounded we hear less of medicines than of incantations used to stanch his blood. In other cases the Druid could remove barrenness by spells.
Well into the early modern era you had spells handed down in some families. The names of saints instead of the old gods are found in them, but in some cases diseases are addressed as personal beings.
weren't there esotericism/occultism threads here a few months ago? what happened to those?
Hermetic magic is derived from Hellenistic Greece/Egypt
>>587713
Consider Carl Jung. Am academic of the highest order (scientific (inb4 neurology and anthropology aren't) cultural, syncretic, and interdisciplinary). He considered magic to be a kind of folk science explaining or perhaps petitioning to different archetypal aspects of the psyche. As per history: since Jung was Swiss, he had the utmost leeway to cover consider the rise and prominence of Hitler an example of "Wotan" as archetype of the Germanic collective unconscious.
>>587713
http://www.philosopher.eu/others-writings/essay-on-wotan-w-nietzsche-c-g-jung/
>you were born too late to practice alchemy in your own shop
Byzantinist here, Magic was considered to be very real and dangerous. Christians recognized the validity of Pagan and Heretic magic while Pagans also recognized the validity of Christian magic.For example Christian authors tells us about how Simon Magus levitated above Rome and how he only came down due to Pious Christians counterspelling the motherfucker.Many accounds of pagans going for Christians for their magical/healing properties are also recorded. There are also accounts of Christian authors advising against the usage of magic. John Chrysostom wrote about this phenomenon.
Magic is not denied by anyone, funny how modern Christians have a very anti magic view and consider only Resurrection etc as supernatural, while early christians not only recognized their side but also the magic from the opposite.
>>592037
>levitation. Haha literally what?!
>>592037
Aren't they categorically different? There's a chapter in Hugh of St. Victor's Didascalion that goes into these pagan arts such as astrology and like.
There's also a difference of labels like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaumaturgy
>>587713
Root workers were generally midwives and healers in the slave and post slave period. Some maliciousness occurred but generally speaking most were decedent Christians and channeled the Christ to do their work.
With Cubans Bontanicas became common and thus most East Coast cities have quite a few where black Americans and Afro Latinos get candles, various aqueous extracts, herbs and materials.
Generally there is a divide between religious practioners and the equivalent of spellworkers. Most people don't fear orisha or lwa, you just don't fuck with them. Some babalwo are in it for the curses and such though
I personally hate the occult, but I'll post this here.
What our ancestors viewed as "magic" was actually a range of things from psychological manipulation and hypnosis, to sleight of hand tricks. Very real, but the people of that time saw these things as supernatural unless the magician was caught out.
The reason that wizards and witches were killed/exiled is actually pretty rational. Would you trust someone in your small community who'd attempt to do these and other "supernatural" type magics even if they're impossible? I don't think it would be very wise.
>>587795
If you want to be technical about "what magic was", it isn't compatible with the contemporary idea of "magic". Magic in the early modern and pre-modern periods was not distinct from physics and the study of nature. Magic was a part of the world and followed its laws, or more precisely, it used them. Similar to how a baker follows the rules of physics when making bread, a magician follows the rules of the physics when producing magical effects. In our popular media, magic is usually depicted as this sort of set of rules and spells that exist alongside the physical, natural world (like Harry Potter, Elder Scrolls, etc), but it didn't work that way when people believed in magical powers; a magic spell was a kind of trick or hack that unleashed some potential action within a set of ingredients, arranged precisely then pushed into action, like dominoes. You have to remember that at this point, natural philosophy described things like the transfer of heat as "actuating potential hotness", and that sort of thing. You can imagine it kind of like how black powder works. When black powder explodes its ingredients are reacting to liberate a lot of energy, a good portion of which is heat. A magic spell that starts fires would similarly release the potential hotness and dryness within an object, or transfer hotness/dryness from one thing into another, or something analogous to that. The system is usually explained through these old humoural terms that are wrapped up in so-called occult systems, notably alchemy. There's some interest at the moment in the idea that Newton's theory of gravity was adapted from occult magic; Newton was a sort of closet alchemist, who appears to have been working in his spare time to iron out alchemical and occult theories with sophisticated mathematics. His theory of gravity does have a fair bit in common with occult and pagan metaphysics, but so far there doesn't seem to be any conclusive evidence.
>>587975
>Now witchcraft, there is no appointed 'ritual' for these things, and it's not something that is discussed. But from what I've seen it's nihilistic self-destruction. Despair, drug abuse, alcoholism and physical abuse, refusing to change spiritual sickness. It's a rejection of the traditional way, it bears no life only takes it away; to put it lightly It's insanity.
I've messed around with it.
This is absolutely true. It really messes with your head.
I lost my mind at one point and was convinced my cat had been replaced by something else.
I shaved my head and burned the ahir so no one could get a link back to me. I was paranoid.
And drunk almost all the time.
(Pic related for tobacco, magic and self destruction).
>>592765
ive been there to man
shit sucks
>>592447
so if i tell my demon to appear as a crocodile in front of you and then command him to turn into stone you'd still think its a"sleight of a hand" ?
>>587713
Watch this course.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFFD1C791A86FB485
>>593010
Hehe
The more I study "magick", the more it seems like mystical self-improvement. Especially post-modern magical practices, like "chaos magic".
It seems to just be fucking with your own and other's beliefs.
Anybody know anything about chaos magic etc.?
>>592003
>collective unconscious.
Jung is shit and don't waste your time on that quack.
Read Evola's Introduction to Magic, read Eliphas Levi, Gustav Meyrink, Franz Bardon, Michael Bertiaux, Arnold Krumm-Heller, Aleister Crowley.
THese are good starts and good continuation for everything you need.
>>599128
Jung is a hack
>>599128
And what, Ebola not a Nietzsche neophyte?
>>588016
>Blue beads are everywere to avoid evil eye.
My landlady has traveled quite a bit and brought a shitton of those things from Turkey.
>>599128
>Aleister Crowley
>>600074
No. A quack.
This is an interesting thread. I consider these magical practices and superstitions to be an ancient relic from very primitive civilizations. There are still tribes and tribal peoples today that keep old shamanic practices alive.
>>603266
>This is an interesting thread. I consider these magical practices and superstitions to be an ancient relic from very primitive civilizations. There are still tribes and tribal peoples today that keep old shamanic practices alive.
Yes. There are still strange cults that claim to turn bread and wine into literal blood and flesh by casting a spell over them in an ancient language.
>>588056
>study for 30 years to figure this out
I'm 25 and knew this. anyone who's understood how sigils were originally made with plentary magic squares could have told you that.
>>592078
yep. Simon magus levitated over time, and Peter and paul, through the power of the holy spirit prayed for him to be humbled, and Simon fell out of the sky, broke his legs, and was then beaten to death by onlookers.
>>596949
it's literally "do whatever, man".
basically
>have an intent
>devise a ritual that acheives "gnosis" (ecstatic trance)
>do said ritual with your intent in mind
>if it works, do your ritual again in other contexts
>if not, discard that ritual and go back to the drawing board.
"easymode" chaos magic is normally stereotyped as being "jacking off to sigils", which isn't too far off from the truth: one makes their "intent" into a sigil, and then masturbates while gazing at the sigil to induce ecstatic trance.
read Phil Hines condensed chaos for more, but I really did give you a pretty decent tldr of the whole matter.
Magic has never, will never exist. Humanity has always blamed problems on anything beside themselves. Feminism blames everything on muh patriarchy, landwhales blame "unhealthy" body image on the media, /pol/ blames the jews, and our ancestors pinned missing stock, illnesses, luck and so forth on mystical juju
>>603553
you just sort of seem like a pessimistic cunt.
yes, it is very well known that no one is shooting fireballs out their asses due to some spell. however, knowing about how Scandinavian witch doctors shoved psychotropic plants up their vaginas to trip so hard they thought there were 9 worlds, or how 15th century magicians thought that the mirror reflection distortion illusion was signs of demonic presence is simply fascinating as far as knowing about human thought through the ages.
>>603565
Cunt? Yeah. Pessimistic? No. Realistic? Yes
I prefer hard fact no matter how much it hurts me, because hope that there is something more will leave you in pieces when you realise its not there. Learning Santa wasn't real devastated me. That high you ride when you think that there is something magical is fantastic. The low you get when the illusion is broken leaves you scarred for a long time
>>603593
>I prefer hard fact no matter how much it hurts...
so, yeah, you're a pessimist that isn't really contributing to anything.
I'm not really seeing, in this thread, any /x/ tier literal belief in magic, but rather discussion of foreign and historical cultural practices.
historical peoples (obviously) had some backwards ideas, but understanding their worldview and cultural practices is still fascinating, regardless of whether their gods and rituals were real or not.
>The low you get when the illusion is broken leaves you scarred for a long time
well, stop being overly impressionable and learn a thing or two about psychological resilliance?
>>603623
That was one of the things that hardened me up to be ready for the worst (and a couple gore threads on b helped). And nowhere did I say that the beliefs and rituals were stupid/ uninteresting. I was merely stating my views
>>592541
>magic is usually depicted as this sort of set of rules and spells that exist alongside the physical, natural world (like Harry Potter, Elder Scrolls
In TES magic is what makes up everything, and magicians are basically physicists.
>>603674
not exactly. the physical world in TES is literally devolved gods.
magicka is the undevolved energies of the aetherius that flows in through the sun and stars, which are literally holes punched in the spherical shell of oblivion.
you are right in likening them to in-universe physicists, though -- what they're doing is "real" (as far as anything is "real" in TES) as far as in-universe logic goes.
sage for waaaaay offtopic, though.
>>588054
You have the idea. Part of magic is the manipulation of memes such that you control them for your own benefit. It includes aspects of hypnosis, altered consciousness, NLP, general psychology and other shit.
The factual basis of the wizard is that of the wise man, the elder, the shaman, the hermit. He is one who can intuit and manipulate in a way that the average person can't, to great effect. It is a quality ascribed to great kings, to priests, to doctors, any learned man who senses beyond the veil and manipulates things using said knowledge. He can change minds, heal sickness, cast out demons. Much like social sciences now, it is seen as nonsense beyond explanation by idiots susceptible to it and dangerous by those that understand how it can be used.
Of course, this is merely what could be called low magic. What comes of the subtle states is something I can only guess at based on my own limited experiences.
>>603552
tnx.
have some qt.
