Could the good guys have won the Cold War?
>>582687
They shouldn't have "fought" it at all. The mistake was getting into a arms race with the capitalist pigs.
>>582698
But the USA had nukes.
>>582716
Nukes are relatively cheap, it wasn't nukes specifically I was referring to. There's nothing wrong with a nuclear stockpile to deter imperialist aggression.
Capitalism won though
There were no good guys, the good guys lost ww2
>>582687
But anon, the good guys *did* win
>>582739
>you will never march victoriously through the crushed remains of fascist Berlin with your comrades laughing joyously at your side.
>>582739
I find it interesting that in the end, all the Axis wanted was to ascert dominance in their respective region so that they could grow powerful enough to check the advance of communism.
>>582687
When you consider the faults of both the USA and the USSR, it's pretty clear there were no good guys. The Cold War was two powerful nations fighting for world dominance through political influence, the ideologies were a facade.
>>583476
>Implying there would be a cold war if the two superpowers were britain and america
>>583459
I hardly think the entire USSR was "their respective region".
Hitler's ideology was based on conquering Eastern Europe and turning slavic nations into slaves, or killing them, and taking their land.
See lebensraum. He laid it out explicitly in Mein Kampf.
It was hardly just a defensive policy against gommunism.
>>582687
Had there been an American revolution in the 70's maybe
>>583484
Why wouldn't there have been? Do you really think superpowers just naturally buddy up because they have the same economic policy?
>Cold War
>good guys
>>583492
Spotted the anglo
>>583499
>same economic policy
>not more or less the same ethnicity
>>583492
Funny thing is that if it wasn't for Hitlers retarded obsession with race and had the Goal of the Nazis been 100% to defeat communists rather than "KILL DA SUBHUMANS JOOS AND SLAVS" The Soviets would have lost and Germany would have become a superpower with France and British and Russia down and an Isolationalist America
>>583492
Lebensraum was a pipe dream and Hitler realized this. It's pretty much on the level of "if I was the president of the planet we'd have flying cars now." He was an admitted ameriboo and pretty much had wet dreams about orchestrating a German manifest destiny.
But it was always a luxury and not the reason why the USSR was attacked, really fucking far from it.
>>583509
You aren't going to refute historical facts with /pol/ tier shitposting.
Like I say, you can refer to Mein Kampf, which, last time I checked, wasn't written by the "Eternal Anglo".
>>583516
Didn't stop them from fighting two wars between 1775 and 1815, and it would definitely be a stretch to say that relations between the United States and the United Kingdom before WWII were altogether friendly.
>>583529
It's no secret that Hitler admired the USA and the British Empire and to a large extent wanted to replicate them in Eastern Europe.
I'm not sure you can make a case of Hitler realising what was a "pipe dream", using actual evidence, until shortly before he topped himself.
>>583516
>only ethnic differences can cause conflict xDDD
Gotta love this meme.
>>583546
>It's no secret that Hitler admired the USA and the British Empire and to a large extent wanted to replicate them in Eastern Europe
That's literally what I said. Hitler read too much Karl May.
It was a pipe dream because no Germans actually wanted to move to Russia and repopulate it. When they started that program the number of volunteers was so low it was laughable. The fact of the matter is that the Germans believed the USSR would attack first within a year or two if they didn't act (whether this belief was based on reality is a different story).
>Mein Kampf
I honestly don't understand why Hitler gets this special treatment. Everyone knows that politicians don't stay true to their words, deliver empty promises, flip flop like crazy, yet Hitler, the king of flip floppers, was supposedly this hardline idealist determined to follow the ideas he laid out 20 years before in a prison cell to the T. It baffles me to be honest and he gets this treatment from both National Socialists and from people who hate him, even though it doesn't really align with reality.
>>583547
>if someone says one thing contributes to conflict it means they are saying that is the one and only cause of all conflict ever!
I can't say I particularly love this level of stupidity or lack of any logical or serious thinking.
>>583581
That post was basically saying "they're of the same ethnicity, why would they quarrel?"
Not to mention Americans already treated Americanness as something disctinct. Andrew Jackson absolutely despised Anglos despite being Anglo himself.
>>582687
Communism was abused by dictatorships of course. If we can't get past this point the conversation won't go very far before turning into memes.
Communism was used to look as liberal as possible without ceding any actual rights to the people.
"Muh freedoms" is not very compelling by contrast, however intelligent people can see through propaganda of any kind and the capitalists offered them the opportunity to succeed in business. So while the capitalists fell short at ensnaring the masses, they could appeal to the people who count in a number of places.
Communism would need to offer them something, a system of economics that tries to gain the same advantages of free markets without the disadvantages of state planning and give a country a prospect of developing as fast as the asian tigers and other postwar "miracle" countries.
>>583578
>That's literally what I said.
And I was agreeing with you on that point.
The point I was disagreeing with you on is that Hitler ever recognised it was a pipe dream. Making rational arguments about the choices Hitler should have made, if he was rational, doesn't cut it, there is no evidence he was terribly rational.
>>583591
Sorry, m8. Misunderstood your point.
>>583595
It was his childhood fantasy anon and it's a fairly minor point of the Mein Kampf to start with, not some master plan.
>>583606
>It was his childhood fantasy anon
I think history fairly conclusively proves it wasn't a "childhood fantasy", even if it was a fanstasy.
>>583640
Some children want to be firemen when they grow up and they deliver.
Don't be so hard on dolph because he didn't let his dreams be dreams.
>>583591
Yes Americans like to think they have a very distinct identity. In reality they are very close to having British culture. Of course both Americans and the British will vehemently deny this.
>>583542
>The war to prevent america from seceding and the second try war
And no wars 200 years and counting after that. Your point?
>>582687
>Could the good guys have won the Cold War?
Well the chief moments for an actual global communist revolution, over throwing Western and Eastern capitalism, were 1947-1949, 1953-1957 and 1968-1972.
>>583547
That's not true, but when they're this similar it's definitely going to prevent conflict.
>>583725
I don't thik either is true. The USA has a very distinct culture based on an offshoot of English culture in the late 1700s.
Obviously it is still derivative, but it certainly has differences to modern British culture.
>>583739
Once the singularity takes place Communism will once again be the order of the day.
The big problem is that it was implemented incorrectly and too early. Even Marx said Capitalism was a phase in the development of societies, one we are still in.
Communism has never been tried, properly.
>>583749
Difference is relative. Learn a different language and live in a country that speaks that language for a year, and you'll see just how similar british and american culture is.
>>583760
>yfw marx killed communism by predicting it, resulting in the ussr and similar states making a shitty version of it and eternally tarnishing the ideology
>without marx and the soviet boogeyman we'd transition from capitalism to communism naturally, like god intended
>>583739
Not really, the chief moment for Communist Revolution is still probably 50-100 years in the future and will have more to do with the emergence of advanced automation along with resource crunch.
Could the USSR have won the cold war. no, the US still hasn't collapsed today so no. Could the USSR have survived, yes, easily if Khrushchev wasn't thrown out, if Glasnost and Perestroika weren't rushed and if the right faction didn't rebel, the USSR would probably still be alive and well today.
Brezhnev though set in a series of events that basically doomed the USSR. He was the worst possible person to have (an ultra-conservative, authoritarian Stalinist) to have at a time when the USSR should have been developing it's own popular culture and waging a cultural war against the west.
>>583760
I'm too tired to do this, but read the chapters on the production process. Proletarian alienation is central to communisation.
Also the Russian empire had enough proles in the Ukraine countryside and the urban centres to make a go of it.
>>583776
>Not really, the chief moment for Communist Revolution is still probably 50-100 years in the future and will have more to do with the emergence of advanced automation along with resource crunch.
OCC has been high enough since the 1890s.
Communisation is a "social" problem about cohering solidarity, not an economic problem.
>>583760
>soviet superman still has american grin
>not constructavist stoic face
>>583762
I see where you are coming from, but quite honestly, as a Brit, I merely learn token phrases for holiday purposes to accord some minor measure of respect to foreigners.
I genuinely consider anyone that cannot speak English to be uneducated.
I will never be shaken from this belief.
>>583784
Not really, give it another few decades and the RoP/OCC crunch will really happen. It's going to be very interesting to watch them try claw their way out of this one and it will make 2008 and 1929 look like a tiny speed bump next too a mountain.
>>583476
Why are ideologies a facade? Why cant they simply be a part of a bifgger whole?
>>583784
It's a social problem and an economic problem.
You still have to figure out how to allocate resources.
>>583802
We're discussing if the material basis for communisation exists, not how workers councils will inter-operate until superfluity and collective self-regulation destroy "the economic" as a problem.
>>583821
I didn't understand any of that jargon, but I still believe the post you quoted is correct.
Hurricane Katrina (deliberate faulty construction) 1,836
NATO Intervention in Libya 2011 15,000
Tamils killed by US backed Sri Lankan Gov. 30,000
US Revolutionary War 35,700
Spanish-American War 100,000
US Made Famine in Bangladesh 1974 100,000
NATO Intervention in Libya 100,000
Guatemala 300,000
US Bombing of Yugoslavia 2,000
Iraq (US Selling Poison Gas to Saddam) 400,000
Iraq (Desert Storm) 500,000
US Bombing Iraq Water Supply in 1991 500,000
Invasion of the Philippines 650,000
US Civil War 700,000
US Concentration Camps of Germans 1,000,000
US imposed sanctions on Iraq 1,000,000
>>583853
Afghanistan (War on Terrorism) 1,200,000
US Backed Dictator General Suharto 1,200,000 (Anti-commmunist dictator)
Iraq (War on Terrorism) 1,300,000
1898 American War vs Philippine 3,000,000
US Intervention in the Congo 5,000,000
US Aggression on Latin America 6,000,000
Vietnam War (including Cambodia & Laos) 10,000,000
Korean War 10,000,000
Native American Genocide 114,000,000
African Slave Trade 150,000,00
>>583853
>>583856
Japanese Occupation of East Timor 70,000
Japanese Bombing of China 71,105
Japanese Massacre of Singapore 100,000
Japanese Germ Warfare in China 200,000
Japanese Democides 5,964,000
Second Boer War 75,000
Irish Potato Famine 1,500,000
The Bengal Famine of 1943 10,000,000
British Occupation of India 1,000,000,000
>>583853
>>583856
>>583860
Massacre of the Paris Commune 20,000
Dutch East Indies 25,000
Somali Child Famine Deaths 29,000
228 Massacre 30,000
French Madagascar 80,000
Indonesian Anti-Communist Purges 1965-1966 1,000,000
Philippine Insurrection 220,000
Franco Regime 300,000
Benito Mussolini regime 300,000
Rebelling Shia Killed by Saddam 300,000
Nanking Massacre 300,000
Spanish Civil War 400,000
Mussolini’s Ethiopia 700,000
Palestinians Killed by Israel 1947-2002 826,626
Nigerian Civil War 1,000,000
Stateless Capitalist Somalia 1,000,000
Iraq-Iran War 1,000,000
Rawandan Genocide 1,000,000
Belgian Congo Colonization 10,000,000
>>583853
>>583856
>>583860
>>583866
Feudal Russia 1,066,000
First Indochina 1946-1954 1,750,000
Khmer Rouge (not communist) 2,035,000
South African Apartheid 3,500,000
Chiang Kai Shek regime (China) 7,000,000
Congo 1886-1908 8,000,000
Nazi Holocaust 12,000,000
Post-Soviet Capitalism in Russia 1,500,000
World War One 16,500,000
World War Two 60,000,000
>>583655
>dolph
Adolf----> 'Dolf
>>583853
>>583856
>>583860
>>583866
>>583869
Hamburg Cholera Outbreak 1892 10,000
Union Carbide Bophal Disaster 15,000
Industrial Revolution Kids & Adults USA 100,000
Chetnik Collaboration & Genocide 100,000
Herero and Namaqua Genocide 110,000
Burma-Siam Railroad Construction 116,000
Albanian Genocide 270,000
Fascist Independent State of Croatia 900,000
Armenian Genocide 1,500,000
Famine of 1932-33 (Kulak policy and weather) 7,000,000
Great Depression (America alone) 12,000,000
Children Killed by Preventable Diseases Since 9/11 208,000,000
Children Killed by Hunger during the 2000s 246,256,000
Children Killed by Hunger during the 1990s 100,000,000
Capitalist Policy in India 1947 – 1990 120,000,000
>>583877
>attributing deaths that had little to nothing at all to do with capitalism to capitalism
>>583910
>believing this
The USSR lost because it failed economically and politically, not because it was conquered or destroyed.
Central planning does not work. End of story.
>>583910
doesnt seem to be capitalism so much as 'imperialism' of i guess 'traditional powers'
you got ottomans and fascist states in that list
>>583936
What is the value form?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtU3vUOa2sw
I can never tell whether you guys are serious about this whole communism thing.
>>583947
All I want you to do is think.
>>583968
>All attempted communist states have fallen, are slowly becoming more capitalist, or are living nightmares.
>Communism works guys, they just didn't do it right!
Top lel. Tragic that societies are going to try communism again because intellectuals idealize totalitarianism.
>>583877
>>583869
>>583866
>>583860
>>583856
>>583853
>>583891
>literally every death that wasn't directly caused by the USSR was capitalism's fault
>>583760
Why should the autistic programmers and tech moguls who own all the robots share their stock with the plebs?
Why not just exterminate the normies except the ones who look like qt anime grills and are obedient enough to act like them?
>>583989
>living nightmares
Isn't it a bit strange how the USA locks up a far, far, greater proportion of population in prisons than the USSR did?
>>583853
>>583856
>>583860
>>583866
>>583869
>>583877
>>583891
>>583995
You must be a bit mental and ignorant if you are unaware of the transatlantic slave trade or the British occupation of India and think these had nothing to do with private corporations, backed by imperialistic states, and my only criteria is that they had nothing to do with the USSR.
Educate yourself, sucker.
>>583999
proofs
>>583999
>USSR detainment records
>accurate
You'll also notice that our prison population has swelled as government size and power has increased
>>583999
>What are Gulags for 500, Alex?
Millions were sent to Gulags for having different political opinions.
The US prison system is flawed, but ultimately it sends criminals to prison. Law breakers. Not political dissidents. It's a more than a bit disingenuous to compare the two.
>>584012
Which ones?
Did you really think I was making it up?
Top, fucking, kek.
http://www.tehelka.com/2014/06/remembering-indias-forgotten-holocaust/
https://cbkwgl.wordpress.com/2015/10/01/famines-in-british-india-what-happens-if-a-company-operating-on-profits-runs-a-country/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/soutikbiswas/2010/10/how_churchill_starved_india.html
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/ism/slavery/
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(06)69491-9/abstract
>>584010
I only read about half of the list before deciding you were either an idiot or a troll. Anybody who would throw the Khmer Rouge into the list in order to "show imperialist counter-revolutionaries how many people their ideology has killed," deserves to be ridiculed or ignored.
>>584023
>Millions were sent to Gulags for having different political opinions.
About 3 million IIRC. And most of them were "thieves:" career criminals.
And mostly people weren't sent for political opinions, but rather, bureaucratic infighting. And most of the "politicals" were ordinary workers.
Don't open your fucking shit trap about stuff you know nothing about.
>>584030
statists did it, not businessmen
>>584023
>The US prison system is flawed, but ultimately it sends criminals to prison. Law breakers. Not political dissidents. It's a more than a bit disingenuous to compare the two.
And what the fuck do you think happens when you take away people's opportunity and dignity?
Do you think you have more "lawbreakers" by some sort of magic act, just pure chance, just an act of Jupiter or Mars or something that the USA has MORE "lawbreakers" than any other state in history?
Are you really this much of a sucker and think it has NOTHING to do with the society itself?
>>583891
You could just as easily use 90% of these figures to say something as mundane as "Government kills"
>>583877
>Great Depression (America alone) 12,000,000
seek help
>>584048
>You could just as easily use 90% of these figures to say something as mundane as "Government kills"
I agree the ultimate goal should be a stateless society.
Welcome, comrade.
>>584035
3 million is the lowest estimate I've ever seen; highest has been in the tens of millions.
But, assuming you're right and not a retarded idealist, 3 million gulag inmates divided by the USSR's population of 220 million-ish pre WW2 is a whopping 1.3% of the population. U.S. felons are 0.7% of the population, so.... Yeah go USSR.
>>582687
Communism is not compatible with the current world and modern economies.
>>584065
>highest
Are pre-archival.
>Yeah go USSR.
You're forgetting about normal prisons though.
>3/220
Isn't a single moment in time either mate. Bad comparison.
>and not a retarded idealist
I don't need to inflate numbers to be utterly disgusted with the nomenklatura.
>>584065
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/01/07/us/us-has-highest-rate-of-imprisonment-in-world.html
Friendly reminder that US rate of imprisonment has pretty much doubled since the date of this article.
I think it may be you that is suffering from cognitive dissonance.
>>584062
>the ultimate goal should be a stateless society
There is no mechanism in place for such a transformation to occur. If the socialist mode of production preceding the theorized communist one lasts even close to as long as capitalism has, you'll be seeing hundreds of years of oppressive groupthink grinding down humanity combined with massive famines if history is any indication of the government's ability to distribute essential resources.
I fail to understand how this is at all desirable.
>>584041
I agree society plays a role, I would just argue that its different parts of society than you. A high minimum wage keeping low skilled workers out of work, an entitled black community that associates success with being a sellout. Then there's always the price of freedom- more freedom means more people are free to fuck up. Fair trade off from most American's point of view.
But please, tell me how communism would make it all better.
>>583877
>Famine of 1932-33 (Kulak policy and weather) 7,000,000
use a little more subtlety next time.
>>584085
Please tell me how you can honestly say that a society that locks up a far greater percentage of its population is objectively better. Society doesn't just play a part, it's not pixies up a mountain controlled by Donald Duck leading to more "criminals" no matter how much you whine.
Please tell me how the millions and millions worldwide slaughtered by the Western powers and today is objectively better.
You have already been provided citations for all of this before you start squeaking "what".
Why are there actually so many Sovietboos on this board? People consistently, unironically say Stalin dindu nuffin and defend the Soviet Union, but why?
>>582687
Tbh yes. Capitalist west is collapsing right now like Lenin predicted
>>584127
because this website attracts edgy teenagers and misanthropic social recluses
>>584099
>it's not pixies up a mountain controlled by Donald Duck leading to more "criminals"
Really? Just stay away from drugs and there is virtually no chance of going to jail, it is not like the US sprinkles crack on political opponents and sends them to labor camps.
>Please tell me how the millions and millions worldwide slaughtered by the Western powers and today is objectively better.
At worst it is a few military dictatorships who killed a few 1000 violent thugs trying to start a pointless civil war then transitioned to democracy as the cold war came to a close. Even so it is more like the US federal government contending with the Soviet Union, far removed from capitalism or business interests.
Objectively the suffering caused by "revolutionaries" like Che Guevara is orders of magnitude worse than that of the worst conventional criminals, child rapists, serial killers, whatever beastly crimes you can think of. What is the worst a business has done? Sold a hamburger to an obese lady trying to lose weight and bring passion back into her marriage? Problems like this are trivial.
>>584099
Those statistics had no direct link to capitalism, people dying at x time isn't automatically the fault of the system. That's assuming the statistics aren't bullshit; two sources on the same "statistic" can be wildly opposed in what they feel is correct.
>Please tell me how you can honestly say that a society that locks up a far greater percentage of its population is objectively better
Society isn't measured by one random metric, its a combination of millions of factors. This one factor is bad. Other factors, like quality of life, hunger, access to education, technological advancement, healthcare etc are good.
Society does "just play a part." Biology plays another.
>>584127
Part of it is that you haven't actually read anything about the Soviet Union so you can't differentiate Marxists who are saying exactly how bad the Soviet Union was (not that bad actually, but just as bad as Western capitalism), and the two edgy tankies.
>>584148
>just as bad as Western capitalism
you can stop this at any time
>>584148
>(not that bad actually, but just as bad as Western capitalism)
>so you can't differentiate
Actually, I'm talking about apologist retards like you that compare the Soviet Union to 'Western capitalism'. An entire economic ideology vs a particular manifestation of another ideology in a state. But of course, you have to collectivize 'Western capitalism' to make it look half as bad as what the Soviet Union did, and it's honestly pathetic.
If Germany had a successful revolution after WWI.
>>584048
Actually between 8-12 million is the number that was come up with when the same black book of communism statistics were used on the US.
It wasn't really to show 8-12 million people died, but how fucking stupid it is to use statistical analysis in a vacuum ignoring social and material conditions of the time.
It isn't even 12 million people are dead, it's "12 million people that could have been there if birth rates continued at peak rates from previous years continued"
This is how you get shit like 40 million people dead in the GLF, 40 million people didn't actually die, 40 million were missing following a population trend.
For example, mass mobilization of a society, say all the men work long hours in factories or join the military in a total war situation, the birth rate then plummits. Using them measure the BBoC uses, all those babies that no longer exist are now "dead people" even if a single person didn't actually die in the real world.
>>584128
>>584145
>Those statistics had no direct link to capitalism,
The USSR could've won, or more likely as in our timeline the USA could've lost; but only if a number of different things happen.
> Truman abandons Greece in 1947, thus the Marshall Plan never happens, thus currency reforms in West Germany never take place, leaving them to turn to Soviet 'aid' in time
> The CIA doesn't interfere in the Italian elections in 1948, leading to Italy electing Communists
> Italy under Communism strengthens the Communists in France, who already have the French Communist Party as their largest party, potentially leading to France electing a Communist majority government.Iron curtain now extends from the channel to the Aegean
> NATO doesn't come into existence, there's only a 'special relationship' between the dwindling British Empire and the USA
> Communism continues to spread throughout British colonies, unopposed with no US doctrine of containment
>>585778
> The USSR could've won, if only the USA sit on its ass and did nothing
Nice historical analysis here.
>>585778
Or Stalin could have let the KKE PCI and PCF off the leash in 1946.
Capitalism will crumble and when people realize they are just slaves communism will come to all and the rich qill die
>>583869
>Nazi Holocaust 12,000,000
ayy lmao
>>585872
It's a high end estimate but including Soviet POWs, Roma, the disabled etc it's not drastically far off.
Or did you mean "lol, it never happened"? In which case you have another board that you should be on.
>>582687
kill yourself
>>584048
I thought this was more the weird one
>Hamburg Cholera Outbreak 1892 10,000
Is this the 19th century communist version of "CIA invented AIDS"?
>>584127
>and humanities
I don't know why in the fuck asian moot decided to put that on the end.
>>584816
I don't think the proper response to a group using ridiculous statistics to argue against an ideology is to make up your own ridiculous statistics to attack their ideology. I can see why you're doing it but I don't think it's very constructive.
>>582687
>Could the good guys have won the Cold War?
they did
