Were the moors black?
>>57835
It was used to refer to any non-white persons of Muslim ancestry but it specifically meant North or West Africans.
Some were, most were Berbers.
>>57835
The Sahara desert is a great, inhospitable expanse with few oasis’s. To conceive that north Africans were black, when the region was originally colonised by Phoenicians, Syrians, Greeks and Egyptians simply because it happens to be on the same continent as sub-Sahara Africa is ludicrous.
The we wuz kings shit is literally the worst attempt at historical revisionism I've ever heard of.
Sorry bruh they were the moops
They weren't very homogenous. There were Berber Moors, Arab Moors, Black Moors and even White Moors.
>>57909
>It was used to refer to any non-white persons
this, for the love of god this
>Some were
right slaves
>>57835
Moors were made up of both black and Arab Muslims
but I guess because black moors seemed more exotic to Europe they ended up in art and writing
>>57909
I agree fully with this statement and don't mean to seem like a troll or OP but being Berber does not exclude black ancestry, but rather is the basis of SOME north african Berber communities.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21082907
Yes. All the early major Berber tribes including the Masmuda, Sanhaja, Ketama Zenata and Nafusa are described as dark reddish brown like the “Indi’ or as “blacks” or Ethiopians in early documents. The notion of the early Berbers as being “whites” or Caucasoid is a new and racist one related to the concept of the African “Hamite”. Certainly the original Berber-speakers were never referred to as anything but “black” or something near it until the 12th century and were otherwise considered the color of Abyssinians and other so called “Indi”.
>1st century A.D.– Marcus Valerian Martial was one of the earliest Europeans to use the phrase “woolly hair like a Moor” in one of his Satires, and the phrase was commonly used up until the Middle Ages.
>1st century Silius Italicus also describes the Moors with the term ‘Nigra’ meaning black. In the 3rd century Roman dramatist Platus or Plautus maintained the name Maure was a synonym for “Niger” which was a common term for the word black.
>6th A.D.- Corippus uses the phrase “facies nigroque colorus” meaning faces or appearance of black color to describe the North African Berbers. In his book Johannis, I/ 245.
>6th A.D. – Procopius in his History of the Wars book IV contrasting the Germanic Vandals who had settled in North Africa with the Maures claimed the Vandals were not “black skinned like the Maurusioi” . The tribes he classified as Maurusioi are those now classified as ancient Berbers, the Numidians, Masaesyle, Gaitules, Massyles and Mezikes several other “Berber” tribes then settled between Tunisia and Morocco.
>After the 8th century the term Moor came to be used for the many Arabian clans who had invaded the Mediterranean and Africa because of their complexions which were the same dark brown or near black to absolutely black color of the Berbers.
>>58052
The drying of the Sahara from a savannah to a true desert was much, much earlier, thinking around 10,000 years before present. There are some decent theories to suggest civilisation didn't even exist at this stage until the drying forced a wide range of tribes to cohabit a tiny area in Egypt and the fertile crescent.
North Africa was colonised at least 3000 years later.
>>57835
I think you mean the Moops.
>>57835
not according to wikipedia.
>>58152
No, you are very wrong.
There have been many wet phases. That's the reason why the one you refer to is called the Neolithic Subpluvial. It's only the most recent one.
>>57835
No, the Moors were Arabs and Berbers from North Africa.
The English just usually depicted them as black because they were so far from there. And they are usually cast as black like the Numidians are, so that English and American media can fill their stupid token quotas.
In Spain and Portugal that wasn't the case. And Moro doesn't mean black or have an connotations to black in those languages.
Google the images of Morocco, Libya, Tunisia, and Algeria, the cities the presidents, tell me how many blacks you see?
People need to understand North and Subsaharan Africa are about as similar as West and East Asia.
Pic is the Moorish ambassador to queen Elizabeth who inspired Shakespeare's Othello
>>58287
Wrong, as evidence by the sources in this thread
>Be north african
>Butthurt afrocentrists want to claim your history as their own
The huge majority of moors were berbers and arabs not black, deal with it
>>58287
>and Subsaharan Africa are about as similar as West and East Asia
This is an incorrect assessment, there has been migrations from the forest regions of Africa to further north for over 100,000 years.
The only issue was that you had massive gaps of time when no subpluvial occured but as we have seen genetically over 20K years ago L had a presence in Tunisia
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/09/130911184712.htm
>>58342
Stop trolling
>>58342
What evidence?
The quotes about Moors, that predate the term Moor?
Or are you saying that the people of modern-day North Africa aren't native and somehow displaced the original inhabitants of North Africa.
>>58385
Are you that annoying North African that /MENA/ makes fun of for constantly making the statement that North Africans are white?
>>58390
Because East Asians never migrated to Western Asia.
Thier slaves were
>>58436
For the most part we see a west asian expansion east, that's how wheat was introduced to China
We do know a Siberian migration west occurred in northern Europe as well as a Central Asian population going west that introduced the horse though too.
If they weren't black then how come Spain is black
>>58287
>MoorishAmbassador_to_Elizabeth
Kek. Fucking perfidious Albion, always willing to negotiate with the bad guys. I wouldn't even be surprised if they had tried to negotiate with the Nazis.
Oh wait.
>>58419
not being white doesn't mean you're black
>>58419
Why do you think that North Africans are either White or Black?
They were neither
>>58535
The fuck does that have to do with anything?
>>57835
Moops.
>>58566
They are of African ancestry, African ancestry varies dramatically given the genetic diversity but still African.
As we have seen the oldest mtdna marker in North Africa is L and that's rooted in what is now called subsaharan Africa.
we waz moors
>>58584
They aren't Dravidian.
Also people use white and Caucasian interchangeably. If you consider Spaniards, Jews, white, then North Africans are too.
>>58584
We're clinal, Africans are extremely diverse.
>>58613
Yeah, they were. Arabian immigrants diluted the Moorish gene pool.
>>58410
>Or are you saying that the people of modern-day North Africa aren't native and somehow displaced the original inhabitants of North Africa.
Didn't the Umayyads come through and reck shit?
>>58624
But that's not true look yourself, north Africans are mostly Native North African mixed with neolithic Near Eastern, Niger Congo, European and other DNA
>>57835
Morocco dump
Hodges, Tony. Western Sahara: The Roots of a Desert War. Westport, CT: Lawrence Hill, 1983.
>A good portion of this book deals with Spain’s political rule and economic involvement in the area.
Mercer, John. Spanish Sahara. London: George Allen and Unwin, 1976.
>Deals in part with the Spanish invasion, colonization, and administration of the territory that became known as the Western Sahara in 1976, when Spain withdrew as Morocco (and for a time Mauritania) occupied the phosphate-rich territory.
Watson, William E. Tricolor and Crescent: France and the Islamic World. Westport, CT: Praeger, 2003.
>Aside from one introductory chapter focusing on early encounters, this book deals with French imperialism and diplomatic relations in Africa and the Levant during the 19th and 20th centuries. The last chapter covers developments in the early 21st century.
Hoisington, William A., Jr. Lyautey and the French Conquest of Morocco. New York: St. Martin’s, 1995.
>A study of the methods of Marshal Louis-Hubert Lyautey in conquest and rule in administering the protectorate.
Robinson, David. Muslim Societies in African History. New York: Cambridge University Press, 2004.
>A thematic treatment of Muslim Africa discussing both the Islamization of Africa and the Africanization of Islam, followed by case studies on Ethiopia, Ghana, Morocco, Nigeria, Senegal, the Sudan, and Uganda.
http://bookzz.org/book/908046/fcd2bc
>>58700
one more
Morocco from Empire to Independence
http://bookzz.org/dl/1061660/ff6945
>>58639
Doesn't seem like the North Africans like blacks
http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/148804/african-refugees-say-arab-muslims-more-racist-daniel-greenfield
http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/07/27/6-african-countries-hostile-towards-black-people/
http://atlantablackstar.com/2012/10/17/blacks-in-north-africa-and-middle-east-often-face-virulent-racism-from-arabs/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3421527.stm
>>58639
No. Arab is a cultural group it isn't an ethnicity unless talking about people from Arabia.
To think the small band of Arabs wiped out the native peoples of North Africa is retarded.
It only worked like that in the Americas because of disease and and steady stream of migration.
That wasn't true of the Arab conquests. It's just that to be Arab all you really need to do is speak Arabic. If you spoke Arabic you were/are an Arab. "Arabs" in Egypt, Tunisia, Lebanon, Sudan and Saudi Arabia don't have all that much in common. The Arabs added about as much to the North African gene pool as did the Germans, Romans and Greeks. Before the Moors were even a thing.
>>58695
>implying these aren't the descendants of an originally black tribe
>>58750
>>58683
The conquered, they didn't kill 50-80% of the population.
Nor was North Africa a sparsely populated backwater. Also the archaeology doesn't show a rapid change in skull shape.
People need to understand not all conquest is like that of the Americas or Australia.
Black Africans today speak English and French, but its not like the British or French killed all the natives and replaced them, just because they now are Christian and speak the conquerors language.
The dead black moorish skeletons are agonizing over closet stormfags debating their race
>>58696
>look yourself
Nigger that picture doesn't fucking mean anything. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm saying you're retarded if you think anyone can look at some random unlabeled charts and pictures and understand what it means.
I'm guessing various unlabeled mtDNA?
>>58889
It's autosomal dna, utilizing all known genetic groups. You can ignore the bottom half of you want, it's only meant to clarify obsolete notions that east Africans are merely Nilo Saharan and Arab by showing that Ethiopic and Ethio-somali are legitimate genetic groups formed in East Africa, same with the basis of modern North Africans with their group.
>>59038
It looks like 11, 12, and 13 appear to be the same, so getting rid of them would make it easeir to read. Labels help, and so would a source.
>>59202
What's light blue? Diluted niger-congo?
>>57835
HAHA
oh course not, they were Berbers who had some (castrated) West African slaves.
Why is this even a tropic? to troll :) ?
>>59202
Oh well no, don't take off the ethio-somali (dark green) and ethiopic (purple) part, ita important to contextualize it
The paper disproves the common belief that horners are merely the result of recent admixture. It's a dense read but very well worth it if you understand genetics :3
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1004393
THIS IS WHY YOU SHOUDLNT HAVE CUT THIS :-(
>>59287
Nilo-Saharan
>>57835
Moor is used for all and every muslim.
>>59333
>>59343
I guess I'll have to read that later. But if you want to post that, you need to label it and give it context, otherwise it looks like pic related
>>59418
Sorry, I look at these things all day so I tend to forget how its not exactly legible to everyone
>>59401
In Spanish and Portuguese it basically just meant Muslim. When the Spanish came to the Philippians they named the Muslims in the South Moro, not because they were black but because they were Muslim.
In English Moor meant black because the English assumed everyone in Africa was black. And because they never had any direct contact with Africa.
>>59450
there's no labels or context at all.
It could be favorite TV shows for all we know.
>>57835
as you can see north africans are closer to arabs and other caucasoids than they are to negroes
>>60396
Give us a proper link also is this old anthropology bs or actual genetic testing
>>60430
Its got to be post-1980s at least. Before then most anthropology books classified Ainu as Caucasian.
This is showing how distant the populations from a time standpoint, showing how far in the past different groups broke off. The graph makes sense.
>>60474
>>60481
The scatter charts looks like it was made 2010-12; do you know how old that is in terms of genetic research?
>>60537
think they were tanned arabs/berbers
Ibn Battuta's accounts speak of Moors as 'white', compared to the blacks of Mali. He also thought they were uncultured savages.
>>60735
He also called Somali berber and praised Kilwa as one of the most beautiful cities in the world.
Words change meaning and he wasn't racist, get over yourself.
>>60803
There is a good deal of european ancestry among north africans and light skin, eyes and hair aren't rare
Did they have Scythian red hair, because red haired people tend to be behind the folks in the great empires. Sorry, hug boxes, but that's just how it is. The Romans would have walked all over you.
>>60850
But that proves my point, north Morocco for example has 20% European DNA
And remember that those stats take into account entire countries so for example north Tunisians and Algerians will also have more European ancestry than their southern counterparts
>Here's a fact, I don't know whether you know or not,
>Sicilians ... were spawned by niggers.
>>57835
Some were, some weren't.
If you read some medieval sources you'll see Medieval writers make the distinction between Moors and Black Moors.
The Holocaust did happen, but the number of dead Jews was probably 9.000-15.000 or less dying from malnutrition, rather than 6.000.000 from gassing
>>62648
PS, why is it so hard for people to imagine a North African country (like Ancient Egypt) to be mono-ethnic.
In Spain and Portugal "moro/mouro" or moor is used to refer all muslim people in general and people from north Africa in particular.
WE
>>60791
I'm not saying he was racist. He liked how the blacks were really hospitable and honest people. But according to him they literally showered themselves with soil whenever the king spoke in royal court or something, which, along with their apparently primitive cuisine, somewhat put him off and made him think they were savages. Nice savages, but still primitive.
I can't remember the details much but he speaks of the pros and cons of the Africans for a short part of his memoirs.
>>58390
While your article does support the migration of Sub-Saharan Africans northward, it doesn't specify in what quantities. North Africans are probably a mix of a multitude of peoples, but would you say they are 'black'?
>we wuz kings : the thread
Is there anything worse than afrocentrists?
>>62948
It seems that only African Americans are afrocentrists. I always wanted to know what real Africans think about all of this.
>>62948
The guys who claim ancient Egyptians were blond Norwegians
>>63005
'Real Africans' see race differently than most of us here would.
There are videos of African-American and African-European people going over there, and being asked why their skin is so light in comparison, if it's chocolate or cold weather for example. I imagine they would be pretty against the idea of their ancestors coming from the other side of the continent.
>>63013
Yeah, nordicists aren't better. Like when they say that Romans were successful because they were blonde.
>>63005
>It seems that only African Americans are afrocentrists.
It's a mix of American education and general racist treatment. In school, children are basically taught the white man is hitler all the time. I didn't even know Africans had their own slaves until high school outside of school. Granted their practices were different, but I found out at a later age. African masters sold their slaves, something teachers tended to fail to mention.
But not every kid growing up learns this, so their "muh heritage" parents raise them like they're lazy versions of the Black Panther party. Cue someone online saying something racist and they get extra defensive. Ignorance is bliss I guess.
>>63209
To me it seems like /pol/ usually starts an afrocentrist thread to bait more /pol/ people into the thread which then end with the conclusion the Egyptians were white.
>>63013
At least there is genetic evidence proving that the Egyptian pharaohs closest living modern relatives are Europeans.
>>58632
>Africans are extremely diverse
Brown eyes, black hair, dark skin.
>>63239
They Egyptian kingdoms were around for three millenia, I reckon pretty much every ethnicity around the Mediterranean was present.
>>58048
>>1st century Silius Italicus also describes the Moors with the term ‘Nigra’ meaning black
>>63239
If by Europeans you mean Copts.
>>63221
So much this. Today's history classes are basically lying by omission. Ask the average young person today about the Arab slave trade, or slavery in general, even shit like the Armenian genocide and they just stare blankly. Lots of people now think whites started slavery, as if it hadn't existed in every civilization ever.
>>57835
>mfw /his/ is the opposite of /int/ with constant threads asking "is blank black" instead of "is blank white"
>>63314
The British referred to dark-haired Irishman as "black", and they're a hell of a lot lighter than any Africans today. It's a relative term. No one is literally black, even the darkest negro, it's just a really dark brown. Vikings used to call dark people "blue", as did the Arabs I believe.
>>63551
I think that's just American history classes bro.
Here is something actual historians do.
https://www.rnw.org/archive/slavery-less-cruel-we-thought
Try publishing that at Berkeley
>>63777
>I think that's just American history classes bro.
Yeah that was my point. American education is really wonky. There is no set standard across the states. Some teachers will just show videos for an hour, some will lecture the entire time, others shove 100 years worth of info on you in a week and expect 5 essays. And with all these styles, the level of information varies all the time.
Doesn't help that there are a lot of teachers who are college students who are deep in debt and teach in poor neighborhoods to pay it off. They're still young and dumb as well.
>>58048
yeah nice meme my cousin is a masmoudi pic related is him just look at how black he is
>>63896
>sfagsi
>>57909
Berbers look white sometimes. It was just a generic term for all Muslims pretty much, most of which were brown, some black, sometimes white.
>>62948
>Is there anything worse than afrocentrists?
People who bitch about them 24/7 even when they're no Lt there
>>63221
White victimhood: the post
>>63239
Kek, I really hope you're not referring to the iGEANA 'study'
>>63233
No I start a thread with
>we waz kings n sheiit
To bait an autistic Canadian into spam posting to death. It's funny as fuck to watch him post decade old information that isn't even fucking relevant since Nubians are not Negroids and only had 1-3 significant rules and we're ultimately short lived.
>>65029
I give em credit for actually starting an empire in Africa, that tropical belt is the most hellish non arctic place on earth.
>>58015
This
