I think we can all agree that this man single highhandedly saved Europe, no, the entire world from eternal damnation at the hands of the idolatry and heresy of Catholicism.
Martin Luther plagiarized his doctoral thesis at Boston University school of divinity, it's a fact.
>>56911
>>56844
If you actually read the 95 Theses, it's all about practices that the Catholic Church doesn't perform anymore. Luther got the Church to fix it's problems, but it took them like 30 years to get around to fixing it.
>>56844
should have tried a /rel/ board first I guess.
>>56844
Fucking protestants get the fuck out you tradition hating assholes
>>57044
>>57043
No, it would quickly turn into reddit tier Atheism vs. Christianity shit flinging.
Lutherisms
>Christ committed adultery first of all with the women at the well about whom St. John tell’s us. Was not everybody about Him saying: ‘Whatever has He been doing with her?’ Secondly, with Mary Magdalen, and thirdly with the women taken in adultery whom He dismissed so lightly. Thus even, Christ who was so righteous, must have been guilty of fornication before He died
>Moses is an executioner, a cruel lictor, a torturer a torturer who tears our flesh out with pincers and makes us suffer martyrdom . . . Whoever, in the name of Christ, terrifies and troubles consciences, is not the messenger of Christ, but of the devil . . . Let us therefore send Moses packing and for ever.
>It does not matter what people do; it only matters what they believe.
>If we allow them - the Commandments - any influence in our conscience, they become the cloak of all evil, heresies and blasphemies
>One should learn Philosophy only as one learns witchcraft, that is to destroy it; as one finds out about errors, in order to refute them
>It is more important to guard against good works than against sin.
>Reason is the Devil's handmaid and does nothing but blaspheme and dishonor all that God says or does.
cont
>>57044
>they STILL think purgatory exists
>they STILL live in works
>they STILL pray to saints
>>57115
>Peasants are no better than straw. They will not hear the word and they are without sense; therefore they must be compelled to hear the crack of the whip and the whiz of bullets and it is only what they deserve.
>Like the drivers of donkeys, who have to belabor the donkeys incessantly with rods and whips, or they will not obey, so must the ruler do with the people; they must drive, beat throttle, hang, burn, behead and torture, so as to make themselves feared and to keep the people in check
>Suppose I should counsel the wife of an impotent man, with his consent, to giver herself to another, say her husband’s brother, but to keep this marriage secret and to ascribe the children to the so-called putative father. The question is: Is such a women in a saved state? I answer, certainly.
>Know that Marriage is an outward material thing like any other secular business.
>St. Augustine or St. Ambrosius cannot be compared with me.
Fun stuff
>Martin Luther also took note of the similarities between Islam and Protestantism in the rejection of idols, although he noted Islam was much more drastic in its complete rejection of images. In On War against the Turk, Luther is actually less critical of the Turks than he is of the Pope, whom he calls an anti-Christ, or the Jews, whom he describes as "the Devil incarnate".[16] He urges his contemporaries to also see the good aspects in the Turks, and refers to some who were favourable to the Ottoman Empire, and "who actually want the Turk to come and rule, because they think that our German people are wild and uncivilized - indeed that they are half-devil and half-man".[17]
cont
hey guys don't mind me, just being the greatest reformer of all time
>>57043
>>57091
Good it can stay there instead of everywhere else. Along with Chalupa and Succubus shit from /x/.
>>57147
That's not how you spell worst anon.
>>57142
>Martin Luther's ambivalence also appears in one of his other comments, in which he said that "A smart Turk makes a better ruler than a dumb Christian".[15]
>The Ottomans also felt closer to the Protestants than to the Catholics. At one point, a letter was sent from Suleiman the Magnificent to the "Lutherans" in Flanders, claiming that he felt close to them, "since they did not worship idols, believed in one God and fought against the Pope and Emperor".[18][19]
>Luther made an attempt to remove the books of Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation from the canon (notably, he perceived them to go against certain Protestant doctrines such as sola gratia and sola fide), but this was not generally accepted among his followers. However, these books are ordered last in the German-language Luther Bible to this day.[5]
>"If Luther's negative view of these books were based only upon the fact that their canonicity was disputed in early times, 2 Peter might have been included among them, because this epistle was doubted more than any other in ancient times". [6] However, the prefaces that Luther affixed to these four books makes it evident "that his low view of them was more due to his theological reservations than with any historical investigation of the canon".[7]
>memestianity
reddit pls go
Yeah, OK, the Church was a bit corrupt, but it's reformed in the past few centuries. Let's all just worship Christ, accept the Gospel's message of universal love and forgiveness for what it is (Truth), and band together as one Christendom again.
>>57115
>>57142
Reminder that these quotes are pulled from Luther's "Table Talks" which is when he drank beer with his students and allowed them to ask him questions. In terms of sincerity and authority, it's the 16th century equivalent of shitposting. Take that as you will.
>faith alone
top kek m8. All I have to do is praise jebus and I'm in! Fuck following the commandments like a good christian, amirite?
>inb4 calvanist mental gymnastics about predestination
>>57166
Shoo Jew shoo.
![jan-hus-ca-1369-1415-everett[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/3YzK7BS.jpg "jan-hus-ca-1369-1415-everett[1].jpg")
Iconoclasm is pretty gross
He could have opposed the papacy and its corrupt institutions without smashing their stained glass.
>>57176
this isn't even wrong.
Religion is literally a meme.
>>57123
I'm Orthodox, so no, I don't believe in Purgatory
>14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Luther was too poor of a scholar to tell the difference between the "Works of the Law" as not important ("The Law" meant the OT), and works in wider sense.
There is literally nothing wrong with praying to saints. Praying just means to plead, and pleading with saints to pray for you is perfectly acceptable. Saints are not dead, they are alive by the very definition.
>>57200
If you truly wish for forgiveness in your heart, yes. If not than it will not happen.
>>57256
This, God knows if you're faking.
>>57194
Actually, quite a few of those quotes are NOT from table talk.
That's not the equivalent of shitposting. Luther writing anonymously on a wall would be the equivalent.
>>56844
The fuck are you talking about? He divided Europe and his heresy was the result of the 30 Years War in addition to other conflicts that claimed the lives of Europeans. Had this nigger not wanted his 15 minutes of fame, Europe would not have ever been threatened by a foreign invader. Kill yourself.
>>57166
Yeah, because Calvin totally wasn't responsible for the reformation of Scotland and Switzerland. What a lazy guy, he never wrote anything or preached hundreds of sermons. He totally didn't bring Christians toward exploring the Bible or anything like that
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8Upf_m5g-Y
>>57275
Regardless, the beauty of the Reformed tradition is that I don't have to agree with Luther about anything just because he's Luther.
>>57166
>>57315
Status:
Rebuked [x]
Not rebuked [ ]
>>57200
nobody strictly follows the commandments just like nobody follows the sermon on the mount except for monks and weirdos
>>57324
What do you mean? Sola scriptura and sola fide are not doctrines derived from Scripture, they are derived from Luther simply because he's Luther. So you obviously do.
>>57315
Christians exploring the Bible more was a product of increasing literacy rates and the printing press making books cheaper
>>57352
>Implying Calvinism is Lutheranism
It's all heresy, though.
>>57345
>Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
>>57202
Why was he so mad
>>57345
Satan pls
>>57352
>Sola scriptura and sola fide are not doctrines derived from Scripture
You must have forgotten these verses:
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
- 1 Cor 4:6
>not to think of men above that which is written
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
- 2 Timothy 3:16
It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.
- Luke 1:3-4
>to write unto thee in order
>That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
- Romans 10:9
That implies his ideals didn't spawn a whole messload of bullshit sects
and that Catholicism is dead
>>57445
Because he was a hard determinist
>>57345
No, no one is without sinner (cast the first stone and all that)
But that doesn't mean you shouldn't ATTEMPT to live a good christian life
>>57445
It's called zeal.
>>57338
where is my fatty Luther ?
>>57492
ask ur mum
>>57465
>And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
And the Gospels weren't even written yet.
>All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That has zero to do with sola scriptura
>That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Are you going to suggest baptism and communion aren't important too?
IT doesn't say that's AALL you need, or else Mormons would be saved.
>>57465
At that time that written the New Testament hadn't even been formulated yet.
>>57492
Luther is overrated desu, I reckon Calvin would've been a better leader for the reformation
>>57591
>And the Gospels weren't even written yet.
The point is to demonstrate the authority of sacred writings. Documents are a more trustworthy foundation than sinful men whose "traditions" change to suit their appetites.
>That has zero to do with sola scriptura
It shows that holy scripture is divine in origin and is therefore a valid basis for one's belief.
>Are you going to suggest baptism and communion aren't important too?
No but if you believe then you will obviously be baptized and take communion but faith comes before either of those things happen. Faith is what saves us.
>>57654
>>57686
>The point is to demonstrate the authority of sacred writings.
>>57654
What's really funny is that that statement is based on Paul's authority. And what he's saying is that you don't place men *above* Scripture, not that you don't have any spiritual authority--or else his very injunction would carry zero authority.
>>56844
>Protestants
This board belongs to the Roman church, heretics belong on >>>/reddit/
>>57469
>God doesn't know what he's going to create until after he creates it
>There are created things that exist for no reason
>Man is needed to complete salvation
>Man is not dead in sin
>>57758
>>57686
>The point is to demonstrate the authority of sacred writings. Documents are a more trustworthy foundation than sinful men whose "traditions" change to suit their appetites.
The documents were never a foundation of the Church. Their authority comes from the Church, do you have any idea how many epistles and Gospels and histories about Christianity there were? The Church authorized a specific canon.
Traditions DON'T change to suit appetites, that's the whole point of Sacred Tradition. It is unchanging.
>It shows that holy scripture is divine in origin and is therefore a valid basis for one's belief.
But not the sole basis. You might say the OT is divine origin, so you don't need the NT.
God inspired the writers of Scripture, as well as ecumenical councils.
>No but if you believe then you will obviously be baptized and take communion but faith comes before either of those things happen. Faith is what saves us.
But not faith alone, that is dead faith. Faith only has life through works.
Most based fat guy of history is a German, Do you muricas feel shame ?
>>57147
Oh, hey John.
>>57795
The most based fat guy is Aquinas.
>>57793
>Their authority comes from the Church
Their authority comes from God because they are "God-breathed."
>The Church authorized a specific canon.
The Church was merely acting under influence of the Holy Spirit. So again it's about God.
>It is unchanging.
Except when it comes to clerical celibacy.
>dead faith. Faith only has life through works.
"Dead faith" is a BS phrase that is meaningless because there is no reason to make a distinction between "dead" or "alive" faith; there is only "faith" and "not faith." "Dead faith" is not faith.
If you have faith then you will act and if you do not act then it is obvious that you do not believe.
>>57812
OI M8 GOD PREDESTINED ME TO FIGHT YOU M8 COME AT ME BRUV
>>57251
Why the fuck do you need to use saints as mediators between you and God as if your personal connection with God through the sacrifice of Jesus somehow doesn't exist?
Praying to saints implicitly elevates them to a status of divinity, depersonalizes the connection to God and the internal quest of religion, and undermines the significance of Jesus' teachings and death.
I'm not even Christian and this shit seems pretty evident to me.
>>57946
>God predestined and willed for you to sin against me
...
>>57889
>Their authority comes from God because they are "God-breathed."
The Church IS guided by God's breath (the Holy Spirit).
>The Church was merely acting under influence of the Holy Spirit. So again it's about God.
The Church is Christ's Body, of course it's about God. Luther is not Christ's body, and he is not guided by the Holy Spirit.
>Except when it comes to clerical celibacy.
Clerical celibacy was never a part of Holy Tradition, concerning priests anyway. It's tradition, but not Holy Tradition. Hence was Eastern Rite parishes of the Catholic Church can have married priests. It's just rite.
>"Dead faith" is a BS phrase
It comes from Scripture.
>>57251
>>57998
Hey, at least he got people to actually start reading the Bible
>>56844
didn't his work start major theological debates that lead to religious tensions in the holy roman empire which then got the leaders of nations involved and eventually plunged Europe into a terrible war?
>>58005
If the Roman Catholic church is guided by God, then why didn't God just... stop the reformation?
Luther is literally the second most important Christian behind Jesus Christ himself! He saved all of Christiandom from the corruption of a Satanic false church!
>>57960
>Why the fuck do you need to use saints as mediators between you and God as if your personal connection with God through the sacrifice of Jesus somehow doesn't exist?
If you knew someone who was a really good Christian, someone very righteous, would you see anything wrong with asking them to pray for you? Same with saints.
>Praying to saints implicitly elevates them to a status of divinity,
Saints aren't divine, but they are holy. There's nothing wrong with revering someone who is holy, there's nothing wrong with asking them for advice, there is nothing wrong with asking them to pray for you or help you.
>>58175
>the second most important Christian behind Jesus Christ himself!
Actually that would be John the Baptist.
>>58043
>Are you his judge?
No more so than he is the judge of Christ's Church.
>>58212
That would be Mary, you mean.
>>58233
Well then I guess it's a good thing he was only writing about the Roman church!
>>58247
Fair enough.
>>58257
The Roman Church might not be Christ's, but they are a heck of a lot closer to it than the nonsense he started.
>>58298
Good uses foolish things to shame the wisdom of the wise.
>>58338
*God uses
>>56844
Reminder lutherans are the shitposters of christianity
>>58338
Is this the Protestant injunction behind shitposting?
>>58401
What do you use to fish for men?
>>58397
Problem?
>>58204
there's this guy called Jesus Christ, he was pretty righteous you should pray to him
>>58458
No thanks. I prefer to pray to his Mom or dead Popes. You can pray to whoever you want as long as it makes you feel good, Aquinas and the church says so!
>>58458
Praying to him every moment is a goal in Orthodoxy, That's what the Jesus Prayer is about.
Saying you can't honor saints or ask them to pray for you if you pray to Christ is pretty silly.
>>58499
awesome dude, let's go summon Jesus with a ritual i mean sacrament
>>57251
>pleading with saints to pray for you is perfectly acceptable. Saints are not dead
>>57147
nah Jean, you were even worse.
>>58204
I'm actually going to have to question a lot of your presuppositions here. I think when it comes to Christian theology it's illogical to revere material, fallible men and use them as mediators in a personal, purely spiritual discourse between you and God. Why focus on revering a saint when you can simply revere the God whom they were simply serving as a material vessel? The saint devalued their material selves for the service of a spiritual will, how then does it logically follow that you should, by virtue of this selfsame devaluing, value their material form? Why pray to a saint for advice when they will simply recount the advice they'd think most congruent with the will of God? It seems very arbitrary and too focused on the achievements of material entities.
>>58806
>I'm actually going to have to question a lot of your presuppositions here. I think when it comes to Christian theology it's illogical to revere material, fallible men
Saints are no longer fallible men, they aren't even material until judgement day. A saint is specifically someone who is in heaven, in this context.
>The saint devalued their material selves for the service of a spiritual will
The spiritual and material are seen as complementary in Christianity. It's not Gnosticism. That is what makes man so special: animals have souls in Orthodoxy, but they are purely material beings (they might be immortal souls, but they are dormant until judgement day), they no spiritual dimension. Angels have a soul and a spiritual dimension, but no physical dimension. Man is the only who is both spiritual and material. God created the material for our sake, but we perverted our material selves (as well as our spiritual selves). There was the Fall in the material, but also an earlier one in the spiritual (Satan's rebellion).
>how then does it logically follow that you should, by virtue of this selfsame devaluing, value their material form?
Icons are done in a very old fashioned, dimensionless style specifically to *not* imitate their material form, but to be icons of their spiritual selves (the same as we are icons of God).
> Why pray to a saint for advice when they will simply recount the advice they'd think most congruent with the will of God?
The will of God is often sent to us through the advice by others. Otherwise, what would have been the point of the Epistles?
>Fuck Jesuits
>Fuck Soldiers too
Has there ever been an American Saint so based?
>literally walked into California to Baptize gentiles
>fed any native who wandered in
>pardoned the murderers of a fellow Franciscan
>Slept on a wooden bench
>donated money to George Washington for the Revolution against protestant England
>lived in poverty his entire life
Saint Junipero Serra is based as fuck and makes me proud to be a Catholic.
>mfw Protestants near to me
>>56844
Martin Luther was still a very religious man. He was also the worst kind of religious nut too, one that never shuts up about his views and pushed them on people. Sure, he was the first step on the way to freedom from a church-centric Europe, but he was far from someone to really admire if you do not agree with the Catholic church.
>>59005
Wow. Just.
What has a non-church centric Europe become exactly? Freedom to accomplish....
>>59005
> Sure, he was the first step on the way to freedom from a church-centric Europe,
Literally, the only reason he got anywhere is because kings and barons wanted their own personal state churches so they could be their own personal popes.
>>56844
>saved
Kill yourself
Seriously, he is the single worst thing to have happened in human history. Even Genghis Khan and Attila had their merits
>>59041
This desu senpai
European Monarchy was protesting the rule of the Church. And they set up their little protestant rebel churches.
Hardly a noble pursuit. Meanwhile, a 2,000 year old Faith moves on without the protestor and his mob.
>>59052
Thankfully the Holy Spirit was guiding the One Holy Apostolic Roman Catholic Church and the reformation was prevented by the will of God, right?
>>59025
Not getting burned for heresy for one.
>>59041
Hence the first step. You always have to give something in politics to get anywhere or you turn into Hitler, hated by everyone in history, including his own people.
>>59079
Every rebel Churchless and unsanctioned Christian gathering is a lie. The only way to the Lord is through Jesus Christ and taking a Sanctioned Sacrement.
Protestant rebel priests are not holy men and are not actually baptising or blessing anyone. The Divine Host is absent at protestor gatherings.
>>59079
The Church under its own function hardly ever burned anyone for heresy. It was only done by clergy controlled by their national government (see The Spanish Inquisition) more than by the Church (that's also how Joan of Arc got burned). The Church got more and more out from under the thumb of state governments and by the Reformation, people like Henry VIII couldn't even force a divorce from his clergy, because the Pope called the shots. That is, ultimately, what the Reformation was really about, the Church ceased to be a tool for monarchs, so they wanted their own churches.
>>59114
It wasn't "the first step" the Reformation led to tons of persecutions by Protestants, not to mention tons of witch hunts by people like King James. You say, oh, it's because of that people aren't burned for being heretics, but that's just ridiculous. Eastern Orthodoxy never had a Reformation, and they weren't burning anyone in the 1800's.
>>59136
>>59142
Stop apologizing. America executes men and women every day. What Catholic Friars, Missionaries and Monks did was spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ, my Lord through the appropriate ways of the day.
In fact, Catholics throughout history have been far more humane and true with the Blessing of the true Church.
>>56844
I agree with the idolatry bit but he essentially gave christians licence to form their own special snowflake offshoot religions.
>>59076
Look at proddy countries now. Virtually entire atheist, degenerate, the hive of all forms of extreme leftism, multiculturalism, etc. They opened the floodgates for the destruction of western civilisation.
And if you're using that line of reasoning, then why would God allow a single one of his soldiers to be killed and dominated by heathens? What would the Fall of Constantinople seem to imply?
>>59170
That's your debate? A single dismissive picture which you did not create?
Protestants, everyone.
>>59207
Eh, just because former Protestant countries have become degenerate pit-holes, it doesn't necessarily mean that Protestantism is false.
>>59207
And the Vatican is home of homosexuality, pederasty, praise of heathen religions (Islam), encouragement of embracing diversity.
Did you actually have a point?
>>59335
Protestor gatherings are not attended by actual priests and thus they are not performing Holy work, but merely pretending.
The Host is absent at protest churches, sadly. It's a huge mistake and could be corrected by protestor churches petitioning to join the True Faith.
>>57123
I'm not Catholic, but I did go to Catholic school. Catholics don't pray to saints. They ask the saints to pray for them, since the saints are more attuned to God.
>>59386
We are all equally capable of praying to God. No saint required. Such a thing is nonsense. You will gain no more favor and your message will be none more clear to the father than from you alone.
>>59374
You seem to have a sinner problem.
The fact is, protestor crimes don't seem to make the headlines. If you hate the Church because of sinners, you are no Christian anyhow.
You happily ignore millions for your cheap slurs. I suggest you give penance soon and pray for the millions of devoted and righteous.
>>59207
I'm American. Most of the right wing is protestant while our catholics are mostly left wing.
>>59416
But if you ask them to pray for you, you're doubling the prayers per minute. That's efficiency.
>>59426
American Catholic here this isn't really true at all.
>>59453
Nah son.
>>59469
Where in America are you from?
>>59424
I only hate the church because of their false doctrines and millennia of misleading folks into the fires of hell. The only point I'm trying to make is you shouldn't be so quick to point at the trash in your neighbors yard when you live in a dump.
>>59374
Utter lies. Sorry there, cletus/jamal
>>56844
In a pre-Enlightenment context, I can easily see how Luther could be viewed as a genius and a hero. He subverted the existing authorities using their own texts and by being the more masterful theologian. It is a classic "Devil Went Down to Georgia" scenario where Luther was the more skillful fiddler.
Post-enlightenment, I'm not so sure. Science offered a more powerful and compelling vocabulary by which one could defy the Church (if we understand defiance of Catholic authority to be broadly one of Luther's aims). Additionally, It allowed many men and women to develop mastery and knowledge in a diversity of subjects while simultaneously benefiting society at large.
While I do not doubt that Luther was a masterful thinker and a great man, I question the ultimate value of the object of his studies. Speculating on that just seems like being asked to pick a favorite of two hockey teams when you only watch baseball. If I were religious, I would probably think differently.
>>59375
So, if I understand you correctly, Protestant churches are not valid because they lack Apostolic succession?
>>59506
>I only hate the church because of their false doctrines and millennia of misleading folks into the fires of hell.
So you hate the Protestants and not the Catholics/Orthodoxy. Good lad.
>could have just rejected the erroneous teachings of the Roman church
>could have rejected the Papacy
>could have just become Eastern Orthodox
>instead opened the floodgates for literally any idiot with a Bible to make his own church (Calvin)
>in less than 400 years we go from 4 main churches (RCC, EO, OO, Assyrian) to 100+
>people like Joseph Smith and Charles Russel get legitimacy in the eyes of the public because it muh sola scriptura allows anyone to twist the words of the Bible by saying "well it's my interpretation"
nah fuck Martin
>>59416
No we aren't. Just people are in more favoure than unjust people.
>>59900
>>57686
>The point is to demonstrate the authority of sacred writings. Documents are a more trustworthy foundation than sinful men whose "traditions" change to suit their appetites.
Which traditions changed as time went on to suit someone's needs?
Secondly did Paul see the future where the Bible was canonized and then refered to an upcoming event that won't happen for 350 years and while he himself was writing what would be in the scripture?
>It shows that holy scripture is divine in origin and is therefore a valid basis for one's belief.
It's pretty retarded to argue that point to a Christian. You know, it was never disputed.
>No but if you believe then you will obviously be baptized and take communion but faith comes before either of those things happen. Faith is what saves us.
There are the following elements that count to salvation: faith, works, grace of God and Christ's sacrifice
>>57765
That's wrong as God knows exactly what he is creating, it's clearly and explicitly stated in the OT
>>59416
>asking people to pray with you is nonsense
Do Protestants actually believe this? Why do you even bother to go to services at all?
>>58130
>For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
1 Corinthians 11:19
>>60042
Asking saints* nice strawman.
>>60063
>John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die.
>Hebrews 12:1 since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.
>Matthew 22:29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead--have you not read what God said to you, 32 `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
>>56844
He arguably was a wake up call for us catholics to get our shit together. But the religious wars that followed were a steep price.
>>57889
>Their authority comes from God because they are "God-breathed."
The thing is God doesn't work in some esoteric way where he sometimes sends the holy ghost and sometimes doesn't and waits for 1500 years to diverge from both Catholicism and Orthodoxy and then the Catholic and Orthodox church still survive and are growing while protestantism splits every few years to the point of a cacophony where the word of God is something just thrown around without a clear meaning.
>The Church was merely acting under influence of the Holy Spirit. So again it's about God.
The church is still under the holy spirit.
>Except when it comes to clerical celibacy.
That's not a doctrine.
>"Dead faith" is a BS phrase that is meaningless because there is no reason to make a distinction between "dead" or "alive" faith; there is only "faith" and "not faith." "Dead faith" is not faith.
Nah there is dead faith. One can truly be zealously convinced of truth of Christianity and still have it not reflect upon his life.
>If you have faith then you will act and if you do not act then it is obvious that you do not believe.
I have faith and yet I still sin.
>>60097
Once again, nice strawman. You are intentionally pretending to be retarded. None of that has anything to do with the point I made in the original post.
speak for yourself christfag
>>56931
Underrated post.
>>60147
I'm not him, but I can tell stupidity by how often I see a new sentence that is formed by phrases constantly overused on the internet and you have all the elements, strawmen, pretending, , nice, point.
It shows that someone doesn't read and that most of his knowledge on a particular subject comes from /pol/ or similar sites.
God I miss the old /lit/ already, this board has significantly lower quality of discourse.
>>60063
Uh, so why would asking saints be a problem if asking sinners is not?
There are protestant right there who defend iconoclasm.
Absolutely barbaric/10.
Is this board going to be a Christian hub?
Christian here
Never really browsed pol after the cluckebing by moot and don't really know much about Christianity other than the bible.
Who is luther is why is he a meme?
Is there anything I should read besides his wikipedia?
The bible is clear on this as Jesus says in the Lords prayer that we are to pray and ask for forgiveness to our father who is in heaven.
>>60375
please tell me that picture is meant to be ironic
>>60358
Probably. Gets them off /pol/, so that's probably a win-win situation.
>>60358
Seems so, but instead of /lit/ type of Christians it gets /pol/ type of Christians.
>>60268
>Being an idolator.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
Fucking heretic.
>>60212
You are assuming that they are higher or closer to God and that somehow praying to them will make your prayer more likely heard or favored.
>>60200
Shut the fuck up shitposter.
>>60432
So people can have no scuplture of anything?
>>60442
Yes because we know some are closer to God.
Hierarchy is celestial, in Hell all are equal.
>>60432
The Old Covenant was of the flesh, it had no spiritual quality. Therefore a graven image could not be an icon, it could only be an idol, it only be itself. But now with the new covenant, things are spiritual, not of the flesh, so we don't have circumcision anymore, but baptism, and graven images are no longer idols, but icons, which means they convey the spirit of what the they represent, as opposed to idols which are dead and only convey flesh (which is why the idols *themselves* were considered gods).
>>60525
Your prayer isn't ranked. It's going to get to the all knowing God just fine.
>>60442
That's not in any doctrine. Maybe they are more favored? Maybe not. It doesn't hurt to ask them to pray either way. If someone on earth is a very good Christian and upright and righteous and pious, I'd be inclined to think asking them to pray for me would be helpful.
>>60461
Not if they want to follow the commandments as they are written, no.
Muslims are turbo fucked, they can literally only have caligraphy if they are to follow the sunnah in any meaningful way.
>>60530
That is literally the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
By that logic of course all idolatry is allowed, literally all.
The Egyptians were not idolators as the statues represented real gods, the Germanic pagans were not idolators and fucking up their tree was icononoclasm because that tree represented a god.
>>60588
What about drawings? I'd hate to tell my 5 year old nephew that he's going to hell for drawing a lion in pre-school.
>>60541
It is ranked. Mine is worth less than his mom's.
>>60530
> with the new covenant
You mean Christ’s sarcifice on the cross which finished the act of redemption so that all could live in Glory?
Guess you were too busy venerating idols and doing "works" to notice that.
>>60588
They never had a covenant of life, no one did until Christ. Even if things represented something, they never represented the spiritual, only the flesh.
>>60588
>Not if they want to follow the commandments as they are written, no.
The Commandments kept in the Ark that had cherubim on it?
>>60676
This is literally how the OT describes the Ark.
There also a ton of depictions of cherubim and seraphs in temples to YHWH in the OT, and it's not seen as breaking any commandment.
>>60609
If he's muslim then one of the more trusted hadith collections say he will do just fucking that.
In fact it says that god hates him more than murderers, rapist, idolators or thieves.
Your son dun goofed.
The bible is okay with just making it a breech of one of the ten commandments.
It's why dudes like >>60530 try so very hard to make the commandment not apply in any meaningful way, because it fucking sucks.
>>60676
The jews didnt venerate the cherubim did they?
>>60697
You were suggesting depictions of anything are against the ten commandments, but that's absurd seeing as how the very Ark they're kept in has depictions.
>>60668
You see your prayer is worth less than my mother's which is worth less than the one of John Paul II.
>>60692
>The bible is okay with just making it a breech of one of the ten commandments
Yeah... that's still a pretty big transgression.
>>60697
They did venerate the prophets.
>>60723
No
>>57123
>implying anything in that fairy-tale tier book is real
I immediately lose all respect for anyone who identifies as religious
>>60697
Nobody except maybe neo-pagans and fringe american-protestant cults worship any form of inanimate object.
You can create or posses something without literally worshipping it.
>>60747
Please don't make me post a fedora image.
>>60721
If you paid attention, you would know god forbids bowing to graven images. Did the jews bow to graven images?
>>60762
>muh meme rebuttal
Ok kid
>>60785
>Ok kid
>>60784
No, neither did they eat shellfish.
>>60734
I mean... sure, but compared to "You are literaly the worst person in the world" it's not that bad.
I mean it ranks up there with coveting.
Which is the furthest away from paganism: Catholicism or Protestantism?
>>60846
Yeah, it's still bad, but it doesn't turn you into a Sodomite (person from Sodom) I guess.
>>60990
hmmmm
Mithras birthday? 25th december
Mithras temple-The vatican site
Name of Mithras head priest?-Pope
>>60990
>Catholicism has statues they pray at (Actually to, but let's give them their way for a second here)
>Catholicism has divine heroes whom you can pray to.
>Catholicism has the same ecclesiastical language as some pagan religions did.
>Catholicism was fucking obsessed with pagan philosophers through most of the middle ages, and still sort of is.
>Gives praise to a heavenly mother.
I think you know the answer anon.
>>60990
Protestantism obviously. Catholicism itself adopted a bunch of pagan practices in order to spread Christianity through Europe and convert pagans.
>>60368
he is a chief figure in protestantism, you can call him the founder or something similar to that.
>>61033
That is literally bullshit.
As in actual cow feces.
The Mithras = CHRISTIANITY shit needs to end, seriously.
Mithras of the wild pastures and the ten thousand eyes, god of justice and cows, does not have a fucking birthday that we know of.
What is true was that Mithras worshipers shared a feast day with Sol Invictus worshipers on the 25th of December.
The head of Roman Mithrasism was called a "Pater", which means father in Latin, the head of the Catholic church is called a Pope, which comes from the Greek word for father.
And there were Mithraic temples all over the fucking place.
The religion started in fucking Persia.
>>61091
>an increasing tolerance of homosexuality, so I'd say it is fundamentally more compatible with pre-Christian values.
What would jesus say about the raping of children, do you think?
I'm wondering what you think his reaction to the pope paying the lawyers to protect the reputation of the church, especially when there are so many victims, and the church owns billions in assets.
>>61135
>What would jesus say about the raping of children, do you think?
I don't think I have to worry about that accusation, since I'm not Catholic, I'm Orthodox. I do know, however, that priests aren't pedophiles at a higher rate than anyone else and a lot of that was sensationalized by the secular media in a way that, say, a similar problem in the Boy Scouts was not. I also know that the Pope who got the most flak for it, Benedict XVI, did more to stop it and persecute those responsible than anyone else in the Church.
>I'm wondering what you think his reaction to the pope paying the lawyers to protect the reputation of the church, especially when there are so many victims, and the church owns billions in assets.
Are you implying that people would make up more cases just to get a shot at those assets?
>>56844
>strong tension between the people and the progressively more abusive church practices
>German monarchs wanting more autonomy
>civil unrest
>Luther posts 95 theses, which was a normal practice to start of a university debate, made out to be some heroic act of defiance or something
>this debate he asked for never even happened
>everyone uses his ass to spark a devastating series of wars with some of the most gruesome raping and pillaging to follow in the next hundred years
>saved Europe
>>61188
>I also know that the Pope who got the most flak for it, Benedict XVI, did more to stop it and persecute those responsible than anyone else in the Church.
That is literally the opposite of the truth.
The fucking gall it takes to make such a bald faced lie is actually impressive.
No, Benedict had been working on covering up the scandals since before he took papal office, including LITERALLY WRITING THE MUCH CRITICIZED POLICIES.
You absolute dingbat.
>>61041
Yeah, protestantism.
>>61256
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI#Sexual_abuse_in_the_Catholic_Church
>>61380
>Responding with just a link
>A link that literally says exactly what I did.
You suck.
A lot.
>>58338
>TFW Kierkegaard's existentialist philosophy is completely incompatible with sola fide
>>61518
It says the opposite of what you said. Ratzinger is Benedict XVI.
>>59335
Yes but the fact that core protestant beliefs are opposed in the Ante Nicene Church and not uphold would show how much of an innovation it is. And this is coming from an Agnostic who read scholarly work on the subject
>>56844
Kill yourself right now desu
If protestantism is go great why did the faith die out so fast in nearly all protestant countries while most catholic ones (even in Europe) are still going strong?
>>61788
No, just no. It's more or less the same in many Catholic countries. The Fedora disease created by Protestantism simply spread
>>61859
Orthodox countries are going pretty well.
The problem is, the fedora seed that sprouted out of Protestantism originated with Catholicism.
>>61878
Yes though it moved towards modern fedora-ism even more rapidly in Protestantism. The ever so famous God of the Gaps shit is a product of Protties trying to contain the fedora which failed. The Reformation of Luther formed the prototype to the modern SJW movement that wants to do what they want which results in authoritarianism which Calvin himself administered in Geneva.
>>61788
Reasons other than religious.
>>61909
I swear /pol/tards will attempt to link literally everything to modern day SJWtards. I don't like tumblr either but I don't spend every fucking second obsessing over it for fucks sake.
>>61951
What's wrong? Triggered your Prottie pride?
>>56844
He didn't save it, he doomed it.
While his complaints led to the Council of Trent, which was gravely needed, he also divided Europe and led many nations into heresy and sin.
Smart man, but terrible results desu senpai.
