Old Flemish poem originating near the Zwin
(The Zwin is a nature reserve at the North Sea coast, on the Belgian-Dutch border.)
It concerns the last days of paganism, when the message of christianity came to them the first time.
[I'll give the translation in the next post]
Out Vlaams vers van be 't Swin
Als wi nog waren Vlaemen Friesch,
ende erkenden Wrald ende Odin,
quaem daer van Eire ende Alba her,
woendere saege ende nieve leer.
Ut diep heet Zuud, een noorderlicht,
nog wyder dan de Middelzee,
waer wi ons setteden op kustenrots.
Vremde konde greep ons aen:
Van Od een speghelingh menschelick,
een Gode sprac Waerheyt noorderlick;
een weg gerade en konincklick.
Een Zone, men zegde ons van Odsche sibbe,
gevonden deur herders in bloote kribbe.
Wi wisten bi Thoer eerst geenen raad,
of dizze konde was goet of kwaad,
maar vliegen dee'die mare blind,
va Noord toe Oostzee met den wind.
ende 't was foor Friezen geen dere,
ende geen grond om zich stellen te were.
Ommers op Walchria bernde het vier,
snekken op Sincfal joegen fier.
Met Alba end'Eire we waren vereent
alvorens de zeie ons scheidde vaneen.
Wi minden de konde, vrijhedens sterr'
en horkten of quaem meer tydingh van verr'.
Wrald ende Odin staen altyt oerein,
van voor 's Booms beginne tot na syn ein!"
>>799934
Pretty sure that is not old Flemish but more of a middle Dutch or Middle Flemish Poem.
freely translated:
When we were still Frisian Flemings,
and acknowledged Wralda and Odin,
came from Ireland and England here
a wonderous saga and a new teaching.
From the far hot south came a northern light
broader even than the Meditterranean Sea
where we had settled on a shore made of rocks.
A strange message got to us.
From God (Od) came a human reflection,
and God spoke Truth to the north,
a straight and royal road.
A Son, they told us, from God's own kin,
found by sheperds in a shabby crib.
By Thor! At first we didn't know what to think
whether this message was good or evil.
Yet this mare flew blindly
from the north to the Baltic Sea with the wind!
The Frisians didn't care,
and they had no reason to take up arms.
Because on Walcria the fire burnt,
the ships hunted proud in Sincfal. [Zealand]
Before we were united with England and Ireland,
before the sea separated us.
We loved the message, the freedom star,
and listened whether more messages came from afar.
Wralda and Odin still stand,
since before the beginning of the Tree [of Life?] until its end.
This poem was passed on in oral tradition, and was written down in the 19th century.
In contrast to the rest of Flanders, who are mostly descended from Salian Franks (Sicambrians), West-Flanders is mainly descended from Frisian,Saxon and Chaucian sea-farers, which affects the dialect still today. West-Flemish dialect is very close to medieval Frisian.
The Frisians became Arian Christians around the 4th-5th century, long before the fall of Rome.
In the area we still have places that refer to the old pagan days, and many names of catholic holy men that replaced the old germanic pagan gods:
Torhout : originally Thoraldi lucus in 743AD, meaning "forest of the mighty Thor"
nearbij are:
Wijnendale, originally Winin dala, Winj meaning Wodan or Odin, dala from talen, litt. languages, a "speaker's corner", from remains we have we know it was a sort of public meeting place, and court to speak justice
>>799972
Curious how they knew England and the continent were once connected.
>>799934
>>799972
Beautiful poem.
Here's the Dream of the Rood:
HWAET!
A dream came to me
at deep midnight
when humankind kept their beds
– the dream of dreams!
I shall declare it.
It seemed I saw the Tree itself
borne on the air, light wound about it,
– a beam of brightest wood, a beacon clad
in overlapping gold, glancing gems
fair at its foot, and five stones
set in a crux flashed from the crosstree.
Around angels of God
all gazed upon it,
since first fashioning fair.
It was not a felon's gallows,
for holy ghosts beheld it there,
and men on mould, and the whole Making shone for it
- Signum Victoria!
Stained and marred,
stricken with shame, I saw the glory-tree
shine out gaily, sheathed in yellow
decorous gold; and gemstones made
for their Maker's Tree a right mail-coat.
Yet through the masking gold I might perceive
what terrible sufferings were once sustained thereon:
it bled from the right side.
Ruth in the heart.
Afraid I saw that unstill brightness
change raiment and colour
– again clad in gold
or again slicked with sweat,
spangled with spilling blood.
Yet lying there a long while
I beheld, sorrowing, the Healer's Tree
till it seemed that I heard how it broke silence,
best of wood, and began to speak:
>>799997
'Over that long remove my mind ranges
back to the holt where I was hewn down; from my own stem I was struck away,
dragged off by strong enemies,
wrought into a roadside scaffold.
They made me a hoist for wrongdoers.
The soldiers on their shoulders bore me,
until on a hill-top they set me up;
many enemies made me fast there.
Then I saw, marching toward me,
mankind's brave King;
He came to climb upon me.
I dared not break or bend aside
against God's will, though the ground itself
shook at my feet. Fast I stood,
who falling could have felled them all.
Almighty God ungirded Him,
eager to mount the gallows,
unafraid in the sight of many;
He would set free mankind.
I shook when His arms embraced me
but I durst not bow to ground,
stoop to Earth's surface.
Stand fast I must.
I was reared up, a rood.
I raised the great King,
liege lord of the heavens,
dared not lean from the true.
They drove me through with dark nails:
on me are the deep wounds manifest,
wide-mouthed hate-dents.
I durst not harm any of them.
How they mocked at us both!
I was all moist with blood
sprung from the Man's side
after He sent forth His soul.
Wry wierds a-many I underwent
up on that hill-top; saw the Lord of Hosts
stretched out stark. Darkness shrouded
the King's corse. Clouds wrapped
its clear shining. A shade went out
wan under cloud-pall. All creation wept,
keened the King's death. Christ was on the Cross.
>>800003
But there quickly came from far
earls to the One there. All that I beheld;
had grown weak with grief,
yet with glad will bent then
meek to those men's hands,
yielded Almighty God.
They lifted Him down from the leaden pain,
left me, the commanders,
standing in a sweat of blood.
I was all wounded with shafts.
They straightened out His strained limbs,
stood at His body's head,
looked down on the Lord of Heaven
– for a while He lay there resting –
set to contrive Him a tomb
in the sight of the Tree of Death,
carved it of bright stone,
laid in it the Bringer of Victory,
spent from the great struggle.
They began to speak the grief-song,
sad in the sinking light,
then thought to set out homeward;
their hearts were sick to death,
their most high Prince
they left to rest there with scant retinue.
Yet we three, weeping, a good while
stood in that place after the song had gone up
from the captains' throats. Cold grew the corse,
fair soul-house.
They felled us all
We crashed to ground, cruel Wierd,
and they delved for us a deep pit.
The Lord's men learnt of it,
His friends found me. . .
it was they who girt me with gold and silver. . .
>>799957
Well yeah you are right, it was the title so I took it like that.
Typically Sint-Pieters (Saint Peter) replaced Thor and Sint-Michiel (Saint Michel) replaced Wodan in these parts. It's incredible how many we have, and when one digs in the archive even more comes apparent.
From Torhout to Sint-Niklaas near Antwerp was a forest which was considered holy by the pagans, dedicated to Thor. It waas later called the "Forest without mercy". There are a lot of legends still about a wandering old man who never grown older through the centuries, clearly reffering to Wodan.
In the forest lived people who were not christian, called "Huns" by the early christian missionaries and monks here.
Interesting also that the christianisation happened around 400AD, when mainly romanized Celtics were living here (the Morini and Menapii). There was a great flood between the 3rd and 10th century which forced many towards the south, only the high places (toponyms -donk) remained suitable for life. Frisian and Saxon seafarers settled, and the area had to be re-christianized 2 additional times in the 7th and 10th century, because people reverted to paganism.
>>799972
never thought i'd see the village i live in mentioned on 4chan, i never knew the meaning though, but i guess it still fits today as theater stage plays are pretty popular here
>>800014
It's a shame we know so little about old Frisian(s). I believe the longest runic text is only 41 characters long. Frisians are mentioned in Beowulf I believe but that's about it.
Here is another funny thing:
Reynke sprack: »gy segget waer.
Ik dancke yw vor guden trost,
Ik dencke des wedder, werde ick vorlost.«
He sach syck vmme hir vnde dare
Vnde sach dar vele manckt der schare
Van synen magen, de dar stunden,
De eme nochtant nicht wol enghunden
(Vnde dyt konde he ock wol vordenen)
Ja, van otteren, van beueren, van groten, van klenen,
Myt den he vaken vosses art dreff.
Doch weren dar vele, de en hadden leff,
De he dar sach in des konnynges sale.
15th century German printed in Lubëck, this was the language spoken by the Teutonic Knights and the Hanseatic league when they didn't use latin and was spoken as far as the Baltic states and possible Novgorod in Russia.
>>799985
Exactly, and I think Pliny the Elder may help us with that. He reported that in the late 2nd century, two tribes settled on the Irish eastcoast which came from the Belgian coastal area: the Manapii (= the Menapii who along with their neighbouring kin the Morini were a seafaring people of Atlantic Celtic signature ; see also Carausius the Menapian) and the Cauci (= Chauci, Kokken, related to Frisians and Saxons, seafarers with a lot of settlements in these parts here). Their colony was called Menapia and is now Wexford.
The inland Salian Franks were hostile and plundered and looted, but Pliny reported us that the Frisian/Chaucian peoples and the Celtics intermarried.
Possibly this is what is meant. The Menapii that didn't leave got assimilated with the Morini, which were much more populous and lived in French-Flanders, around Boulogne-sur-Mer.
Another fun fact is that the Morini called Boulogne Bononium, then the Romans came and called this main port to England Gesoriacum. Later the Flemish name became Bonen.
Many villages in the area refer to the Morini in the toponym. So both being seafarers, perhaps this is what is meant in the poem.
>>799997
>>800003
>>800008
beautiful!
>>800040
interesting, I know that Novgorod was the sister-city of Bruges (where I live) in the days of the Hanseatic League. Russian has quite a lot Dutch/German words that are said to originate in those days, culminating in Peter the Great's particular love for the Netherlands. Many seafaring terms, but not limited to that, eg. chair is stul' (stoel).
>>799997
Can you read this?
thet hi thissa iefta tha fresum hede evelike dan
ther hi kenigan and hertigan to witscipe up nom
and [ondris] monege halike man
thach to lesta
hu hit tha efterkumanda evelike wiste.
Ande tha brewm hit ma biscref
fon tha ieftum ther [abuta] nowet urietin bilef.
thet insigil thet was fon tha brondrada golde
hu hit alle liude wiste thet thius ief ewelike stonda scolde.
thisse bref ma tha fri fresa iof and sine hond
mith dole and mith harum hi wider for and sine ain frilike lond.
Aldus mugin hit alle liude forstan
thet thi kening kerl thene fresa
vmbe thet kreftlike strid fri hewet ge dan.
>>800036
West-Vlaming? St-Pieters-Brugge hier (Thorbrugge hehe)
This might interest you:
http://saemundr.org/articles/wijnendale/
It's in Dutch, it describes well the pagan history of the area.
>>800102
I can read but cannot understand ;__;
>>800128
I thought the last sentence resembled Old English a bit.
>>800040
I heard that Low Saxon (Nederduitsch) is still spoken even today in some places on the Polish coastal region, as a result from the Hanseatic League.
I also know of a Flemish colony in Poland, Wilamowice, found in medieval times, where a dialect is still spoken.
>>800179
Well as time went on low Saxon became more and more High German, in fact I think medieval low saxon is easier for dutch people than modern low saxon.
>>800036
weird right, Sint-Niklaas here
>>800117
yea, and thanks for the link!
>>800102
>
If I speak it aloud I can understand parts
dat ie deze ... de freezen hede eeuwelijk gedaan
der ie koningen en hertogen te wetenschappe? up nam
en andere menige gelijk? man
I have to repeat it more than once, and suppress the urge to read it like standard Dutch but pronounce it like our dialect, then it becomes clearer
>>800190
>Sint-Niklaas here
St-Niklaas is also a hypostasis for Odin.
>>800242
>Aldus mugin hit alle liude forstan
>thet thi kening kerl thene fresa
>vmbe thet kreftlike strid fri hewet ge dan.
In this way all people may understand
that king Charles the Frisians
has made free because of that strong fight.
Or in a more literal translation, and I am not sure if the words share a root but they do sound alike. I also changed the sentence order to conform more to modern English.
Aldus mugin hit alle liude forstan
thet thi kening kerl vmbe thet kreftlike strid
thene fresa fri hewet ge dan.
All thus may all men (lads) understand
that the king Charles (Charlemagne), because (of) that crafty/craftlike battle
Made the Frisians free (The Frisians free made)
