Recently a Qur'an was found that is dated to between between 568 and 645 CE. The Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) was engaged in his active ministry in 610-632 CE. The wording of this Qur'an is identical to the wording today.
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/23/opinions/quran-manuscript-analysis/index.html
In case anyone is missing the significance of that, here is a comparison. The first time we have any two-page manuscript fragment of the New Testament is from around the year 200 CE. That’s 170 years after Jesus’ death in 30 CE.
Meanwhile the New Testament has approximately half a million different variations in text between different copies!!!
This finding proves the text of the Qur’an is exactly the same in 630-40 CE as it is in 1630-40 as it is in 2016, the scribes of the Qur’an simply didn’t change it. They made sure they copied it the same, every time, word for word.
If Muslim scholars over the centuries – from the very beginning – made dead sure that when they copied their sacred text they didn’t change anything, why didn’t Christian scribes do the same thing??? My answer is that the Muslim scribes had the guidance of Allah.
Clearly this proves once and for all the Qur'an is the word of Allah and Islam is the one true faith.
Truly God is Greatest.
>>551404
Because the Bible was written by a bunch of semi-random folks many decades after Jesus lived.
The Qu'ran is also, dogmatically, the literal word of God, to be copied verbatim. Few other religions make this demand of their holy texts.
>>551408
Peace be upon you. It is because the Qur'an is true and the Bible is not, my friend.
>>551408
Before the first Council of Nicaea, Christianity wasn't so much a single religion as a spectrum, like Hinduism. You had all sorts of whacky cults believing in everything from "Only Jews get into heaven as Gentiles are creations of satan", a belief held by the author of Revelations, to "Eat semen, for it is the blood and body of Christ", held by the followers of the Gospel of Eve.
The Council just arbitrarily decided upon which texts were "right" based upon which would empower Constantine the most.
>>551424
>Eat semen, for it is the blood and body of Christ
Explain yourselves Chrstians.
>>551424
The biblical canon was not put together at Nicea. Early church leaders debated on which ones to use and the main books were already accepted by most Christian authorities long before Constantine
>Islam
>>551404
>Recently a Qur'an was found
No. It's literally only two pages, 27 verses of text all up (that's verses, not surrahs).
>dated to between between 568 and 645 CE
The parchment itself is but the text written on it isn't (i.e. the text could have been written on top of an old parchment that had been cleaned of text) and textual experts are unanimous that the text is from a later date.
>The wording of this Qur'an is identical to the wording today.
It's very similar but not identical.
>>551438
>Early church leaders debated on which ones to use and the main books were already accepted by most Christian authorities long before Constantine
Well, versions of the main books anyway, not the same versions you have today, hee hee.
>>551429
I eat semen literally every week.
>>551404
Because Christian scholars had to translate the bible from Hebrew, to Aramaic, to Greek, to Latin, to English over the course of 1000 years of language evolution whereas Muslims just had to copy the exact same shit they were already speaking you fucking sperg.
Childish, Abrahamic, manichean, desert gods. Moses, Jesus, Mohammad--all life-denying slave morality peddlers. They all deserve each other. Enjoy Eurabia.
>>551429
Each book of the Bible was, at one point, literally that. A separate book. Revelations, John, Timothy, etc, were all separate texts. A single Christ Cult might only have, say, three texts, and there was no guarantee that they'd be shared by other Christ Cults.
>>551454
The figures I was quoting are just for the collected NT manuscripts in original Greek. Not for the Bible as a whole and not from comparing English translations.
It's no good just making things up in response, anon.
Also I like how you ended with English as though the 'proper' modern Bible is in English. That's pretty funny.
>>551474
So Christians today don't eat semen?
>>551495
I wasn't sure if it was a joke. You Christians are strange!
>>551476
I ended with English because its the language we're speaking right now retard, I could have gone just as easily with Spanish, French, German, Italian, Russian. Unfortunately I don't know any of those languages and must rely on the translation of ancient professionals far more intelligent than I. You however do not seem to comprehend that there are differences between languages and I must conclude that you are equally as limited in your linguistic capabilities as I am. Consequently, this places you in the category of "shitposter" not "Muslim."
>>551507
So long as you grasp that the textual variations I am talking about are in the early manuscripts in Greek.
>>551404
>made dead sure that when they copied their sacred text they didn’t change anything
And this is why Islam is shit.
>>551514
I never made any such claim that they weren't, but if they were in Greek than they must have been translated from Aramaic because that's what Jews spoke naturally and would have had to convert it to Greek when they passed it on to other members of the Hellenized world, and that alone already poses a threat to absolute textual cohesion.
If they claim religion is not a tool for political elite to control masses, then why are/have most major religions actively trying to convert rest of the globe. If they say love thy neighbour like thyself or it is a religion of peace, why this conversion can be done violently if necessary?
WAKE UP SHEEPLES, SPACE CULTURE IS HERE.
>>551526
They were written in Greek, anon. You really don't know much about your own Holy Book.
Prophet Jesus' (peace be upon him) original followers would almost certainly not have been able to read and write.
>>551535
I just don't want you to go to Hell for not submitting to God and heeding the words of his Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
>>551526
>if they were in Greek than they must have been translated from Aramaic
Nope. All of the Gospel authors were Greek speakers and wrote in Greek, as did John of Patmos and Paul.
>>551525
Why? That doesn't make any sense.
>>551567
The authors of the New Testament Gospels would have been relying on some sort of oral story telling and yes I guess the original stories would have been originally spoken in Aramaic and passed from person to person to person until eventually after a few decades they were written down by Greek speakers.
However what we are talking about is even after they were written down they were copied sloppily (and possibly even changed deliberately for ideological reasons) leading to numerous versions.
>My answer is that the Muslim scribes had the guidance of Allah.
This is where you prove your whole post is just bait.
>>551584
How can you deny it?
>>551476
this is pretty funny because you are making implications that he is making up things in response but it was really you who were making things up. Nice work kid
>>551588
Peace be upon you. I suggest you educate yourself on this issue, friend as I have made nothing up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_variants_in_the_New_Testament
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfheSAcCsrE
takbir desu
>>551424
>Only Jews get into heaven as Gentiles are creations of satan", a belief held by the author of Revelations,
H abelieved that those who we call Christians are the Jews, regardless of national / ethnic origin. Christians are the chosen of YHWH, we are the spiritual children of Israel. Those who call themselves Jews are not, they are the Synagogue of Satan.
>>551429
>gospel of eve
It's some made up shit by perverts.
>>551418
Sure, buddy
>christcucks
>Abrahamic religions
>not being a Pagan
>Be bloodthirsty Schizophrenic pedophile psychopath warlord under influence of Reptilians and other demonic interdimensional beings
>claims to receive word of 'God' and founded 'religion of peace,' yet is a religion of bloodshed and murder about bringing humans under the control of reptilians
>worshipping a Satanic conscious rock/meteorite
That's probably because Jews and Early Christians didn't have a meme of God "giving" books containing his words to people. This meme seems to be repeated over and over in Quranic verses. So naturally early Muslims thought that they were receiving their own book of literal words of God that should be written down accurately. Early Muslims were also much more organized, wealthy and powerful than Early Christians.
>>551606
pbuhtbh
>>551625
Posting in a troll thread made by jihadists.
they could've done the world a favor and omitted whichever part tells them to ruin everything
>>551619
>ressurecting a religion that's been dead for 1000+ years
>using mostly Christian sources to reconstruct it
Top yey.
>>551404
>using BCE/CE
>>551404
Bible was printed and the reason printing was outlawed in muslim nations was exactly because of numerous - intended or not - errors in print in the Bible. Similar thing happened to translations.
Papal state started issuing their own, very well checked Bibles after 1532 I think.
What you are saying is that protestardism which used printed bibles and translations of them, mostly based on King James Bible - with over 400 confirmed errors - on a large scale is dumb, especially since they don't supplement bible with tradition.
Also several verses are removed from most modern(newer than circa 800) Quran copies. Particularly the ones allowing for Arabia's indigenous religions to exist.
>>551629
>don't ask the UN how North Koreans feel, ask the North Koreans
wrow
>>551629
Yea isnt art haram? I bet you are one of those revisionist new age muslims. You people are the worst, just like Mehdi Hasan...
Dont worry your time will come.
>>551645
I'm talking about the early manuscripts in Greek, not books printed after Johannes Gutenberg or the Reformation.
>>551408
great post, thread is done, everyone go home
Mohammad didn't even know what he was talking about. He was repeating what he was instructed by his uncle and foreign slaves. Many verses in qoran are obscure in meaning due to faulty translation or foreign words. When asked about these verses, Mohammed stood in silence, hadith says.
>>551649
Mehdi Hasan is a great man.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjRI2AsF3h0
>>551672
Another example of Mohammad's ignorance of qoranic verses.
>>551673
>During a sermon delivered in 2009, quoting the Quran, Hasan said to an audience: "The kuffar, the disbelievers, the atheists who remain deaf and stubborn to the teachings of Islam, the rational message of the Koran; they are described in the Koran as “a people of no intelligence”, Allah describes them as not of no morality, not as people of no belief – people of “no intelligence” – because they’re incapable of the intellectual effort it requires to shake off those blind prejudices, to shake off those easy assumptions about this world, about the existence of God. In this respect, the Koran describes the atheists as “cattle”, as cattle of those who grow the crops and do not stop and wonder about this world."
He is a lying manipulator like all muslims.
You piece of fucking shit shouldn't speak English or use western media, Go back to your mudhut shithole and stop proselytizing your fake, violent backwards bullshit cult. GET OUT AND STAY OUT OF THE WEST
>>551603
Early Christians did not rely on scripture as much as tradition. The whole Muslim argument against Christianity and Judaism on the basis of corruption of scripture is totally farcical and in many cases inaccurate from a scholarly perspective
>>551690
There's nothing wrong with that. Look at the banter between Christians and atheists.
Mehdi Hasan said nothing wrong.
>>551697
That's how the teachings of the great Muslim Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) became corrupted.
>>551701
>There's nothing wrong with that. Look at the banter between Christians and atheists.
>Mehdi Hasan said nothing wrong.
And Muhammad is a pedophile who fucked a 9 year old and muslims are singlehandedly the most backward people in the world and will forever be the stain upon advancement and enlightenment.
You stupid fucking mudshit
I told you to GET OUT
>>551715
There's no need to be hurtful. Peace be upon you.
The hadith cannot be considered historical. It is bitingly obvious that many of them were invented to explain Quranic verses.
Muhammad is an historical figure however critical scholarship has dismantled the account of his life taken from the hadith.
The Quran accuses Christians in the area of worshipping Mary as part of the Trinity. While there were indeed early Christians who worshipped Mary they were not in Arabia when the Quran is said to have been revealed
The Quranic subtext is distinctly Biblical and is an obvious amalgam of Biblical apocrypha that abounded in the region at the time.
Adam and Eve didn't exist.
Now, get out.
>2016
>actually believing that the world was created by a magical sky fairy because some sandy hermit thousands of years ago wrote it in a book.
I hope this thread is ironic
MUSLIMS. GET. OUT.
The Qu'ran isn't the word of god
>>551730
>>/pol/
>>551720
>There's no need to be hurtful. Peace be upon you.
Then there is no need to be a muslim. Common sense upon you.
>>551720
This post has the distinctly passive-aggressive arrogant muslim tone that I've encountered so often. Same with Jews.
Say whatever you want about Theology, but this is just insufferable.
>>551741
I just wish peace on Earth and goodwill to all men, anon.
Who cares if the New Testament was modified if no one in the general populace could even competently read it for at least 1400 years?
Meanwhile there are verses in the Qu'ran that make absolutely no sense, not even from a semantical standpoint and still Muslims will claim there is no Bid'ah. It's nonsense. Religion has always relied on training and tradition to work, not on scripture. No one would even care about the scripture if he wasn't told to.
>>551753
Everything in the Qur'an is 100% accurate, how could it not be? The information is directly from Allah. This thread has proven that.
Studying the Hadith is a complex area of study with not all of the Hadith being accurate. No one claims they are as reliable as the Noble Qur'an.
>A man may literally marry a girl that isn't in Puberty
>Not one, but FOUR of them
>>551755
The Qur'an is the Prophet's (peace be upon him) greatest miracle.
>>551772
>This thread has proven that.
It hasn't.
The Hadith is a theological faux-debate field that only exists so Muslims can talk about Theology at all. They'll never be relevant because the Qu'ran always takes precedence. It's intellectual dishonesty. "Use your reason" is what Muslims often say. To do what? You only need to read the Qu'ran.
>>551778
Why is it not allowed to depict Muhammad? Why are you putting him on the same level as God? Same with Abu Bakr, Ali etc.
>>551781
You still need to use your reason to interpret and understand the words of God.
Islam is a spook
Islam is a spook
signed,
Max S.
>>551782
Exactly the opposite. Because making pictures and statues of holy figures to worship is idolatry.
>>551788
So, you're lumping Allah and Man in the same category? Blasphemous.
>>551772
Yeah didn't address any of my points at all. Nice one Ahmed
>>551791
Don't be silly.
If Christians were actually following the Second Commandment they would do the same.
Getting tired of this thread. I'll go freely indulge in all my desires now ;^)
>>551743
>I will pray for your salvation.
Salvation cannot be prayed for because its a control used by religious elite to get you paying before praying. Zakat as your owners(ulama) call it. Have fun deluding yourself for the prosperity of those who manipulated you. True faith and honest belief doesn't require dogma only a rational mind and will to commit good DESPITE there being some reward or imaginary after life.
>>551678
>whereupon he spoke to one of them: 'Read it out to me,' and this one red it out to him. Whereupon the Prophet said: 'Correct!'
did muhammad have aspergers?
>>551804
What about the Kaaba? Or what about Mecca? Isn't it a physical representation of faith and therefore an idol.
>>551810
Along with a long list of other shortcomings.
>>551772
How can the information be from allah if he doesn't exist?
>>551733
I thought /pol/ liked muslim because they also hate jews?
>>551811
>Isn't it a physical representation of faith and therefore an idol.
No. It's the centre of the world in imagined Islamic geography, so it's a marker for the direction of prayer. Pilgrims circle around it to represent the oneness of God ([spoiler]a circle has no end and no beginning[/spoiler])
>>551826
That post may be either hate directed at Jews or at Muslims, I don't really care, but they autistic way it's done is certainly of /pol/ quality.
>>551827
Why is there a center of the world? Are you saying God exists in a specific location in this world? Either that or praying towards Mecca is simple convention and nothing else.That's both blasphemy.
>>551811
The Kaaba is a building and no Muslim worships it.
>>551837
They literally pray in its direction. Why? Even Muhammad is buried in Medina, not Mecca. Mecca serves no purpose. It's convention and tradition, like most things in Islam, but they won't admit it.
Why is a woman's testimony only worth half a man's?
>>551833
Allah sent down a meteorite to show where it should be built.
You must bow down in humility to GOD Almighty. That's a must and a given. So, you must physically bow down somewhere, and naturally to some direction! If you were to do it right now, you would be bowing towards a random direction. Your physical presence on earth forces this upon you as a prostrating Believer to GOD Almighty, whether you like it or not. The bowing down to GOD Almighty in the direction of the Kaaba, or the city of Mecca in general, is a way to unify all Muslims to bow down to God Almighty, as one body and one unity, towards one direction.
>>551833
>Why is there a center of the world?
I *think* Islamic tradition holds that it's where Adam was created and built the first church/mosque/whatever
>Are you saying God exists in a specific location in this world?
no, this isn't temple judaism. and I'm an agnostic you clown.
>Either that or praying towards Mecca is simple convention and nothing else.That's both blasphemy.
nice false dichotomy. I don't know why you think you are an authority on what constitutes blasphemy in Islam considering you're freely admitting you are clueless about any of its theology
>>551850
LMAO
>>551853
You're right, I've literally no idea wether it's blasphemy or not, I don't really care. I just want an honest response that's not "I pray for your salvation bla bla" from the Muslim guy.
>>551404
>simply didn’t change it.
Duh, they have a bunch of other books that provide interpretations et cetera.
The Qur'an is like the Old Testament to the rest of their Books.
Anyway, the Americans are the god of the Arabs, rather goddess.
pic related is what empowers Muslims.
They're complete sell outs.
I would also like to fuck a pre-pubescent girl until she sustains damage to her sexual organs strong enough to cripple her physically and emotionally for the rest of her life.
Where can I convert?
>>551864
That is not true at all, you have no idea what you are talking about. The Qur'an is the unaltered word of God as give to Muhammad (peace be upon him) and by far the most important text to any Muslim.
>>551858
Frankly m9 you're better off on Wikipedia which can explain it better than I can
>>551867
>""""""""""""""""freedom"""""""""""""""" tower
>free to come last in a list of tall buildings
ahahahahahahahahahahahamericucks
>>551875
Wikipedia is boring, I want to hear it from his own mouth. But honestly it seems like he's just interested in religious masturbation and dodges difficult questions.
>>551874
Muhammad wasn't a Muslim. He was Jewish.
>>551868
Head to your nearest Catholic church or cathedral.
>>551867
‘Abdullah ibn ‘Ata narrated this hadith from ‘Abdullah ibn Buraydah and he said in it,
“And that you see deaf, dumb, blind, barefoot shepherds of sheep competing with each other in building as if the kings of people.”
He said, “So the man [Jibril] stood up and left, and we asked,
‘Messenger of Allah, who are these you describe?”
He answered, “They are the Arabs.”
>>551877
They're literally the architects and builders you stupid fucking moron.
>>551879
What have I dodged?
I have given clear answers as best I can.
Although quite honestly the thread was supposed to be about the topic in hand rather than some sort of Ask a Muslim Anything thread.
>>551881
No, I don't want to have to work for it ;(.
I covert, I marry 9 year old we have sex. Easy. God literally told me to do it.
>>551883
Thanks for the (You), reddit.
>>551586
Your answer came from nothing.
Isn't that.. *gasp* atheist logic? Something can't come from nothing.
>>551720
If allah is real, why are muslims the vermin of the modern world?
checkmate, kikecuck
>>551884
Why did Muhammad have sexual intercourse with Aisha when she was only 9 years old?
Muhammad never married a child.
It was pushed by butthurt crypto-Pagans hundreds of years after he died in order to discredit his image.
>>551404
You can still find copies of the New Testament in the original Greek, and copies of the Old Testament in Hebrew.
And you can find copies of the Koran translated into English.
What's your point?
>The wording of this Qur'an is identical to the wording today.
is it? source?
>>551404
Your date ranges also include the possibility that it was written before Muhammad. With either completely discredits the text or Muhammad.
>>551404
The parchment on which the (parts of the) Qur'an was written was dated to between 569 and 645
All that means is that the animal lived and died within that time. The words could have been written a generation or two later.
It's still a good discovery, I just wish people would understand what the carbon dating actually means.
>>551906
Not really, it comes from carbon dating, which provides a date range using scientific testing, clearly combining it with the historical evidence it shows it was written in Mohammad's lifetime or very shortly after it.
Even if the Qu'ran has never changed, which is possible, People's associations and understanding of language changes. It's impossible to conserve the same meaning of just a single word over 1500 years, which means the Qu'ran is changing wether Muslims like it or not, they must just adapt to it.
>>551898
There appears to be some miscommunication because I have no idea what your point is?
Did you read the whole of the post?
Taking a bit of a stab at what you might be asking, since you metioned English translations, the massive textual variance I am referring to in the New Testament refers to the early Greek manuscripts that we have, not to English translations.
>>551894
I don't know her age. That is not in the Qur'an and he had sex with her after she hit puberty and began menstruating.
>>551927
>>551906
Again, all the carbon dating tells us is a time range within which the ANIMAL may have most likely lived in died. If the animal was born in 610 and died in 630 and then the portions of the Qur'an were written on it in 650, that would fit well with the carbon dating we have.
If we wanted to date the ink, that would require taking samples that could damage the manuscript itself. With animal skin, you only need a small piece, but you'd have to scratch off larger portions of the writing to be able to accurately find a range for the ink. And even then, it would only tell us when the ink was likely produced, not when the portions of the Qur'an with the ink were written. So the ink may have been produced in 630-640 let's say, but the person who bought or made the ink may not have used it until 650-660.
This Qur'an fragment is extremely significant to Islamic studies, but I think some people are getting carried away in assuming it must have been written while Muhammad was alive.
>>551429
Where the fuck in the Bible does it say to eat seamen. I'm alright . with it but I've never read that
>>551947
Utham destroyed a huge proportion of Quran manuscripts
your entire religion relies on Uthman and what he did with the manuscripts
christianity has a huge textual tradition, it is a benefit to christianity that we have so many manuscripts, where 99.999% of discrepancies can be spotted thanks to the huge number of manuscripts
ALOHA SHREKBLART
>>551923
Peace be upon you.
Yes a very good and thoughtful post my friend and thank you for contributing an interesting and informative post to the thread rather than attacking me or Islam.
Yes I concede entirely what you are saying and I do understand (the implications of if not the science of) how carbon dating works.
It does seem unlikely to me that parchment would have been created and left a long time until written on but I agree, indeed, that the writing could be a bit later.
>>551993
I don't think it says to eat seamen anywhere in the Bible, although you could argue some sects of Christianity practice a sort of cannibalism.
>>551418
>my fantasy is better than yours
>>551995
You still don't seem to have completely understood my original post and for that I apologise for miscommunicating and not speaking clearly.
The very earliest New Testament document anywhere near as good as this is carbon dated to approx 170 years after Jesus' (peace be upon him) death.
So clearly you have nowhere near as good a textual tradition as Islam, your historic evidence is far, far worse. The manucript I am talking about is dated to within or close to Muhammad's (peace be upon him) lifetime.
And no you are wrong the huge number of textual variances in the early NT manuscripts are enormous and you can't easily solve any of them, never mind, apologies for the crudity, pulling a 99.999% figure out of your bottom.
>>551995
>your entire religion relies on Uthman and what he did with the manuscripts
It is generally acknowledged by Sunnis (who revere Uthman) and Shi'a (who hate Uthman, especially for his destroying Qur'anic manuscripts) as well as Ibadis (who also dislike Uthman) that the standard edition of the Qur'an based on the Uthmanic codex is legitimate and that nothing was taken out or added in. The dispute was mainly on the ordering of chapters. Ali's Qur'an was the same as Uthman's in content but was arranged chronologically and included his tafsir. This was rejected by Uthman by for all sorts of reasons that still form a point of controversy between the different branches of Islam.
>>551995
>christianity has a huge textual tradition, it is a benefit to christianity that we have so many manuscripts, where 99.999% of discrepancies can be spotted thanks to the huge number of manuscripts
If all you care about is the GENERAL meaning of the words, maybe. But the fact that from what we can tell, the Arabs seemed more dedicated to preserving the literal text and not simply the meaning as opposed to the many Christian monks writing in scriptorums churning out Bibles in droves who seem to have had less concern for preserving the literal text as much as the general meaning makes Christian claims that the Bible is inerrant problematic. There's also the fact that some well known Bible stories don't appear in all the manuscripts and some of these stories have been extremely important for Christian ethics, which presents problems as to whether these stories are factually correct. For example, the story of Jesus and the sinful woman where he tells the Jews "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" doesn't appear in the earliest manuscripts we have.
One benefit the Arabs and Muslims had over Christians was that the text of the Qur'an was standardized fairly quickly by people who knew Muhammad well (controversies of the caliphate succession aside). This meant that debate centered almost exclusively on what the proper interpretative methods to understanding the Qur'an's meaning were with each sect having its own understanding based on their respective views of authority and proper methodology. In contrast, early Christianity took several centuries just to come to an agreement on which books were canon, let alone how to interpret them, as well as which versions of the canon books are most authoritative which still continues to this days.
But Uthman burned all the different Qurans, did he not? Although allegedly the differences were minor.
>>551934
>People's associations and understanding of language changes. It's impossible to conserve the same meaning of just a single word over 1500 years, which means the Qu'ran is changing wether Muslims like it or not, they must just adapt to it.
This is why I think Shi'ite claims to authority are stronger. For Sunnis, it's consensus among the ulama that determines the meaning of the Qur'an. For Shi'a, specific individuals are invested by God with the exclusive right to interpret the Qur'an and the obligation of the Muslims is to obey them. The former Sunni position carries with it two risks: the first risk is that the virtually anything can be justified at anytime by appeal to consensus of the majority of ulama, whether its right or wrong according to reason or intellect, and there's also the question of which ulama are the rightful authorities whose opinions may be counted as part of that consensus (in the past, the rightful ulama were usually those most closely tied to state authority). The second risk is that in order to prevent such chaos as I have mentioned, consensus may become strict dogma that even if the consensus changes, it is difficult to challenge because the old consensus is defended in the name of preserving tradition and consistency and slight deviation becomes suspect of heresy. This was the main reason Wahhabism and other Islamic reform movements gained converts in the modern period since the traditional Sunni ulama did not mount a good response to modernity coming from the West because they were so committed to keeping everything as it was, even when it was making the Islamic world "weak" in the face of a more powerful and modern Western Europe.
The Shi'a on the other hand developed a more monarchical understanding of religious authority that comparable though not identical to the Roman papacy and the clergy, like the Roman Catholic clergy, were a more independent institution from both the state and the common laity
>>552071
>And no you are wrong the huge number of textual variances in the early NT manuscripts are enormous
99.9% of which don't change the meaning of the text, like spellings and punctuation
you have no textual tradition because Uthman destroyed it
>>552087
the arabs didn't preserve, they were destroyed. and it was under the stewardship of Uthman, one man... the fact there's huge numbers of manuscripts of the NT, from a large number of areas, is a benefit, not a curse. it means we can deduce what was originally written... all muslims can do is know what Uthman wanted the Quran to be. if he was a fraud, then the entire religion is meaningless
the sinful woman story, we know was added, precisely because of the huge number of manuscripts... if there is a "sinful woman" equivalent in the Quran that Uthman added, we would never know
>>552148
Why do Shi'as roll in mud on Ashura etc then? They seem to have lots of heretical traditions.
>>552166
Some pleb started doing it, and other plebs followed.
It has nothing to do with the religion.
>>552156
>you have no textual tradition because Uthman destroyed it
Even before examing this claim you should be aware that Uthman knew Muhammad personally and is the person Muhammad (peace be upon him) dictated the Qur'an to and the alleged incident that took place happened within a couple of decades of Muhammad's (peace be upon him) lifetime.
The manuscript we are discussing is dated within Muhammad's (peace be upon him) lifetime.
The Gospels were written by people Jesus (peace be upon him) never met. Decades after his death in a language he and his followers didn't speak. The earliest fragment is dated approx a century after his lifetime and is the size of a credit card and has a sentence or two on it.
There are dozens of apocryphal texts that never made it into the New Testament, a process of deciding what went in which was not completed for a good couple of centuries or more, whereas it is universally acknowledged.
An no I think you are now just pulling, to be crude 99.9% out of your bottom on no basis. There are huge and controversial discrepancies in the early manuscripts of the canonical New Testament texts.
>>552175
Does the "clergy" condemn these practices though? Or at least not condone them?
>>552156
>the arabs didn't preserve, they were destroyed. and it was under the stewardship of Uthman, one man... the fact there's huge numbers of manuscripts of the NT, from a large number of areas, is a benefit, not a curse. it means we can deduce what was originally written... all muslims can do is know what Uthman wanted the Quran to be. if he was a fraud, then the entire religion is meaningless
Your basic assumption is completely false though. Uthman did NOT destroy all the original manuscripts. Ali's Qur'an we know was not destroyed since he passed it down to his sons and grandsons and several other companions in both Sunni and Shi'a histories have been mentioned as having memorized the total Qur'an as well as written it. Uthman destroyed many manuscripts in order to standardize his version, but we know that he didn't destroy them all, nor did he suddenly remove the memories of all those who had memorized it from even before it was written down. We can check the authority of the Uthmanic codex.
>the sinful woman story, we know was added, precisely because of the huge number of manuscripts
And that is a huge problem, especially when the story of casting stones at the woman has formed a major part of the Christian tradition of forgiveness and mercy. If that story isn't true, then does that mean one can cast the first stone? If it is true, but isn't in the earliest Biblical manuscripts, what is the criteria by which we determine the story is true in this case if not it's appearance in the earliest manuscripts?
With the Muslim manuscript tradition, we have manuscripts which can be checked against traditions. We can more easily determine if Uthman's codex was close to Muhammad's version and how close than we can check the authority of any single full manuscript of the Bible. We know what the Church Fathers were writing in the 2nd century on theological matters better than we know what the Bibles they read during that same period looked like.
>>552199
I know that matam (self-flagellation) is banned in Iran.
>Suffering and cutting the body with knives or chains (matam) was banned by the Shi'a Marja' Ali Khamenei, Supreme Leader of Iran and Hezbollah in Lebanon but still is practiced in Bangladesh and India.
Admiration for Ali, Hasan, and Hussein's revolution are certainly the original Shi'ite but certain "Shi'ites" take to too far, to pagan levels by "devoting themselves" and asking for their forgiveness.
>>552195
>gospels writen by people Jesus never met
>Matthew
>John
>the disciple whom Jesus loved
>never met
>An no I think you are now just pulling, to be crude 99.9% out of your bottom on no basis.
you're the one with the claims of all these discrepancies.. name them, if you're saying i'm wrong
>>552235
>And that is a huge problem, especially when the story of casting stones at the woman has formed a major part of the Christian tradition of forgiveness and mercy. If that story isn't true, then does that mean one can cast the first stone? If it is true, but isn't in the earliest Biblical manuscripts, what is the criteria by which we determine the story is true in this case if not it's appearance in the earliest manuscripts?
the story isn't true. this is accepted by everyone except King James Onlyists, who have the same problem muslims do, with their text that is based on a tiny number of manuscripts, and as such can't be considered reliable.
but this is the point. you know that the sinful woman was added, thanks to the vast manuscripts we have of the NT.
>>552261
>JESUS LOVES ME, HALLELUJAH, let me write a fanfiction about what I wanted him to believe
t. Evangelical protestants
I don't see how it's any different.
>>552261
>the gospels were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John
Educate yourself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjcseBJ7_Ns
>>552261
>you're the one with the claims of all these discrepancies
Here's a few.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_textual_variants_in_the_New_Testament
>>552274
Muslim stumped again. These people actually met Jesus, and saw him. How is it similar to an evangelical protestant writing his own fiction? Are you suggesting that evangelical protestants also know Jesus closely?
>>552261
Mark, the earliest written gospel.
Didn't even have the resurrection in it
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/new-testament/the-strange-ending-of-the-gospel-of-mark-and-why-it-makes-all-the-difference/
>>552282
>wikipedjuh
>>552284
>These people actually met Jesus, and saw him
No they didn't.
There is not a single biblical historian who supports the idea that the gospels were literally written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
These are anonymous accounts written in the third person, decades after Jesus' life.
>>552290
>can't dispute it.
>>552301
This is just pure desperation. Bart Ehrman has a Christian wife and is the top scholar on this issue on the planet and says no Christian should lose their faith based on his writings.
>not half a million then
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_textual_variants_in_the_New_Testament
Before you squeak "wikipedia" there are three scholars cited with the highest number 750,000
>>552296
You Christians and your mental gymnastics have completely discredited monotheism in the west.
>Muh Church did nuffin wrong, Jesus gave the (4 "legitimate" ones, forget about the countless others) gospel writers time machines & possessed them so that they could write exactly what the Church wanted
>Saul of Tarsus dindo NUFFIN
>>551454
This only proves op's point. Islam had in the medieval period spread from Saharan Africa to Southeast Asia across hundreds of unique languages and cultures and all recognized the original ancient Arabic and derivitive languages as the true word of God. Christians are divisive, petty and feudal, they could never have achieved such unification as in the Umma. God is Great!
>>552315
an apostate cannot be unbiased on this issue. he spent many years of his life believing... it is natural for someone who loses their faith, to get everyone else to lose their faith, regardless of facts or evidence
again, the number of discrepancies is irrelevant if you don't have any facts to back up what those discrepancies are.
>>552327
>Muh Arab imperialism
>Having to learn a language in an attempt to understand a text in the best possible way
REEEE GET OUT OF EUROPE
AGGHHHH ISIS PROVES ME RIGHT REEEEE
>>552343
Are you off your meds again, Abu?
>>552353
No, my friend, I am merely emulating your fellow anti-Muslims' rhetoric when they come off their meds.
You can call me Íosa/Isa, Kristian.
>>552340
Erhman claims contradictions that aren't contradictions
you have to ask yourself he is really an honest scholar, or someone trying to dig for errors that aren't there, to make himself feel better for spending many years in the faith
>>552367
Literal Arab imperialism ideology shouldn't be alowed to gain hold in Europe, don't you think so? Why would any White man want to adopt the religion started by the mendacious faker pedophile named Muhammad? Why would anyone want his society to turn into one resembling that of 7th century Arabia?
Jesus is LORD!
>>552370
You have to ask yourself whether you are just trying to dismiss sources because you don't like them.
I would suggest you try giving me a serious source from a serious biblical historian that doesn't claim that the earliest uncovered versions of Mark end at the tomb, or that seriously still claims the gospels were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John or that claims there aren't massive textual differences in the early NT manuscripts.
You might find a claim from an evangelical apologetics website to back you but you won't find a claim from a serious scholar, the vast majority of whom are believing Christians to back you.
>>551404
Tell me when you find a copy of the Quran BEFORE Muhammad came
>>552393
>serious biblical historian
by serious, do you mean an atheist one?
>>552261
>the story isn't true. this is accepted by everyone except King James Onlyists, who have the same problem muslims do, with their text that is based on a tiny number of manuscripts, and as such can't be considered reliable.
What you're not getting is that the number of manuscripts is absolutely irrelevant. What matters is whether the AUTHORITY of the manuscripts checks out. It doesn't matter if millions of manuscripts existed or only 100. What matters if whether there's an axis upon which the manuscript tradition rests and the Christian manuscript tradition's axis is a whole lot weaker than the Muslim axis, because there's almost no way to check the authority of any manuscript that has been passed down to us from the early Christian period. Authority it was what matters, not simply the numbers of texts, cause millions of manuscripts may be based on a false original
>but this is the point. you know that the sinful woman was added, thanks to the vast manuscripts we have of the NT.
Actually, we really don't know, because we don't have any earlier manuscripts to check. For instance, it's possible that the story of the sinful woman is totally true and that some 2nd or 1st century texts did have it and that's where it comes from. But it's pretty much impossible to check it for authenticity. Just because the story doesn't appear in the earliest manuscripts we have doesn't mean the story is true anymore than it means it isn't true, because the story may be a true story that was orally passed down until someone got the idea to insert it in the Biblical text. It may have been in some early manuscripts which were copied by other groups of copyists but not all of them and this is why the earlier manuscripts don't have it because the earliest ones we have just happen to be the ones that do not possess it, though this isn't proof that all manuscripts didn't have it before. That's the point, we don't know and we can't know.
>>552408
No, read my post again. Anyone teaching biblical history at a solid mainstream University will do, the vast majority of whom are believing Christians.
>>552429
seems doubtful they would be mostly believing Christians with all those errors that they study about
>>552437
Well if that is what you are basing your belief on then you should convert to Islam, because that is what all your scholars say.
On the other hand our textual history is excellent.
>>552452
Ehrman says "scholars say" a lot... then says "it's complicated" when it comes to explaining where he got those gospel dates from
>>551404
>The first time we have any two-page manuscript fragment of the New Testament is from around the year 200 CE.
Inaccurate and wrong.
>>551695
you first faggot
>>552429
Im sorry, where are the sources of your claims?
Most scholars maintain that the Apostle Peter was involved in the creation of Mark's gospel
>>551648
>>don't ask the X how Ys feel, ask the Ys
I don't see the problem here.
>>551806
zakat is charity. it is given only to the poor. it is never given to any master or owner or leader. keep trying to project the characteristics of your pathetic race upon the world faggot. but it is not going to work as long as i am here.
>>551848
it is not faggot
>>552497
I'm a different person, and disagree with the poster you quoted. As a European Muslim, you come across as a munafiq.
Islam is not your ethnic religion, nor was it ever supposed to be.
>>551896
it was not pushed to discredit his image. it was invented, like most of the hadith, to justify the traditions by the non arab muslims. this is what most hadith is and that is why the hadith was never important in islam until the last few centuries .
>>552485
Just a quick search on wikipedia showed that the traditional view was that peters companion mark composed the gospel however modern scholarship reject this view.
You can look at the sources yourself although if you don't know how to I can explain it for you.
>>552461
I already gave you a challenge, one you refused to accept. I understand your fear, changing to the true faith may be difficult for you after you have rejected God for so long.
The evidence is clear. Islam has a copy of the Noble Qur'an perfect in every way from within The Prophet's lifetime.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35151643
You have a credit card sized fragment from a century later with a sentence on it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rylands_Library_Papyrus_P52
Think about is as a wager, you have nothing to lose by joining Islam, Jesus (peace be upon him is our prophet and Messiah.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam
The only mistake you have made is calling a Prophet a God, but Allah will forgive you.
If you join the true faith then you won't need to spend eternity drinking boiling metal. And if I am wrong you have lost nothing.
God is great, my friend, I can see you know that and want to submit to him and share his love.
>>551934
this is true. infact the quranic arabic is only truly spoken by the beduoins of arabia.
>>552035
the claim that muhammad could not read or write is probably a later invention. the quran calls muhammad unlettered but that does not necessarily mean illiterate. the quran also calls jews and christians as lettered. it appears that the words letterd and unlettered means people of the book and people of no book.
>>551424
>Council of Nicaea
>decided upon which texts were "right" based on which would empower Constantine the most
I'm going to go ahead an assume your whole post about the early church is completely wrong based on your ignorance of one of the most basic events in early Christianity. The misconception that the Biblical canon was decided at Nicaea is debunked with even the most shallow study of church history.
The only thing semi-correct about your post is the claim that some believed that only Jews get into Heaven. It is only semi-correct because it was not saying that only Jews get into Heaven, but there was a prevailing mindset that many Jewish practices, the biggest of which was circumcision, were to be imported into the Christian religion.
>>552523
>showed that the traditional view was that peters companion mark composed the gospel
i disagree, since a quick search on wikipedia holds that Peter was the one who made the gospel that was written down by Mark.
>however modern scholarship reject this view.
Wikipedia says multiple scholars reject this view. Multiple scholars sounds pretty vague actually, and it doesnt say anything about the reasons for holding the view. (Would you take the view that multiple philosophers believe naturalism is true as sign that it IS true? I doubt it, since several philosophers have criticized the mainstream view of naturalism as incoherent)
>>552525
the Quran is objectively false. it claims that the christians of the 600s believed in the trinity, being the father, son and Mary, which is factually inaccurate
sorry, but islam is a false religion based on a ridiculous book that bounces about all over the place
>>552562
Lettered means reading and writing Syriac. Most arabs used a primitive arabic alphabet to take notes but that didn't count as lettered.
>>551418
Aren't you late for you daily groping of German girls Ahmed?
>>552148
it is natural that a person belonging to a slave race would prefer a tyranical version of islam. as for your question of which ulema to follow, the asnwer is simple. the power of the alim(singular of ulema) depends on how many people he can convince of his views. there is no institution of ulema that must be believed no matter what. even an ordinary man can become an alim if enough people are willing to accept his reasoning for what islam means. this is why all the western claims about how muslims are controlled by their mullahs is absurd. the mullahs are controlled by the muslims instead. if the mullahs start saying things that muslims do not agree with, they will soon find themselves very lonely and without followers. the west keeps trying to project its diseases on the muslims. no, all religions were not created to be a tool for the ruling class. islam instead is pure anarchy and a bane of the tyrants from the very beginning of its existance
>>552583
The Qur'an is absolutely true. It is the Word of God sent down to mankind. Surely you can see this from the evidence provided to you.
You do not need to live a hedonistic, empty lifestyle.
God is Great.
>>552525
>Islam
but Muhammad didnt even exist...
>"abrahamic"
>"god"
>>552156
uthman was not a god or a king that muslims would have simply followed what he wanted. stop trying to project your inferior western mentality on others. the western man is like someone who sees another man on the street and cannot think to himself that this man has his own life story and dreams and ideas. this is why the west has always tried to shove their way of life down the throats of others, no matter what that way of life may be. before it was christianity now it is democracy and capitalism. and before christianity it was romanisn being shoved on everyone. there was also the ideals of the french revolution that had to be shoved on everyone around france. and on and one and on. pretty much whenever a european finds a new way of life he begins the process of forcing it on those that do not follow it. this is because all european ways of life are really just one way of life in different skins. it is all slavery of their master. by imposing their way of life on others they want to create more slaves for their masters.
>>552627
Good on you for not letting the west force paragraph breaks on you either
>>552602
Why did the title of caliph become hereditary?
What exactly is wrong with the theology of ISIS? I keep on hearing how it's wrong and that the quran shouldn't be followed exactly but isn't the whole point of islam besides 'salvation' and god, the establishment of an islamic state? Are they just misinterpreting the quran?
>>552390
there are many lords. just ask the english. they have a whole house full of them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Lords
>>552510
i am not a muslim. i am a racist
>>551404
>200 replies in a thread about muslim lorefags
>>552652
https://www.rt.com/news/190468-muslim-scholars-islamic-state/
They claim literally evey Muslim on the planet (that won't pledge allegiance to them) is an apostate based on takfiri doctrine. I know it is hard to understand but they want to kill us more than you.
Islam is a religion of peace.
>>552654
ΚΥΡΙΟΣ ΙΗΣΟΥΣ
>>552583
the quran says nothing about any trininty. and christain catholics do worship mary. according to islam praying to someone for anything is taking them as gods. just because christians do not specifically call mary a god does not mean that christians are not worshipping her as one.
the third in the christian trinity is the holy spirit. the holy spirit has no personage, it is just a stand in for gods influence on earth. it is nothing like jesus who is an entirely different personality from the father but is still the same exact being as the father.
>>551441
>religion of peace
>>552586
first of all the quran is calling all christians and jews lettered. i am pretty sure that all of them were not literate in those times. also why would being able to write syriac is considered literate and using the arabic alphabet to write is illiterate.
>>552652
Anyone can interpret the Quran but most Muslims defer this and adhere to the interpretations of prominent and respected scholars, unlike ISIS who stuff their fingers in their ears and say WE'RE RIGHT EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG AND THEREFORE DESERVES TO DIE and use student radicals as their ideologues rather than actual Islamic institutions
>>552679
>christians worshipping Mary as one god.
I'm stupid and I fuck rumiants
>>552701
Catholic detected. How can you afford to pay for internet after all those indulgences?
>>552708
>indulgences
tiptopkek laddie
>>552662
>200 replies in a thread about the historical documents that make up the biggest two religions on the planet, which even if you don't believe in have had a significant influence on history and current affairs
>with some decent sources provided for once.
Go back to your "what if" thread that belongs in a board about novels.
>>552715
Are you the person who understands the officially codified doctrine of Islam? You’re the interpreter of that?
>>552715
>Clearly this proves once and for all the Qur'an is the word of Allah and Islam is the one true faith
Implying thats not the basis of this whole thread.
>>552649
because the caliph is nothing special. during the times of the caliphate much of the people living its so called boundaries were not even affected by its laws.
there is lack of understanding of how anarchy works. from time to time some family with the help of their clan or larger tribe comes to control the commerce in a certain area. they then decide to exert more power by coming to some kind of understanding with those they are affecting (not ruling). as long as they can keep the understanding and the people trust their clan or tribe, they get to keep their position of authority. that is why there were so many rebellions to the caliphate through out its small history in baghdad. that is also why the later caliphs began using turkish mercenary tribesmen as their soldiers and proxies. this is because they could not trust the great majority of local muslim population to be loyal to them. the caliphs even granted many turkish tribes control over some areas with the understanding that the turks would bring the locals to heel and share the taxes with the caliph.
the caliphate was never a state or an empire. they could barely keep any control over the region of iraq throughout much of their history and had to use foreign turks to do it. since they could not trust the local muslims. so much from the grand romantic delusions of modern day muslims about the caliphate and how all the muslims were as one. the modern interpretation of the calipahate is a new phenomenon and is a result of westernization of the middle east. islam is its trues interpretation is pure anarchy. islams does not need a church or state or any temporal authority to exist and function within a society. this is because islam is an expression of the souls of the free and noble races of the middle east. and this is how these races have lived forever.
>>552688
>quran is calling all christians and jews lettered
No it isn't. It calls them people of the book. Arabic was then very primitive as written language. It wasn't possible to write a literature with it for example. Thus it didn't even count as a written language.
>>552729
I'm OP so clearly I am more than just implying that is the basis of the thread.
I was saying stop fucking whining.
Peace be upon you.
>>552652
the state is a tyranical western institution. it has nothing to do with islam. and isis is a product of western intrigue in the middle east. it has echos of what the british were doing in the middle east and south asia almost a hundred years ago. read some more about the leader of isis, baghdadi. there was an article last year about some guy who was in the same jail as him and the guy speaks of speical privelages given to baghdadi by the us forces running the prison. plus isis is run by chechens and america has been funding the chechens against russia since the 90s.
>>552726
Hi Ben
>>552733
I recall reading somewhere that "unlettered" can be interpreted as "gentile"? What's the exact Arabic word used in the Quran?
>>552683
islam is not a religion of surrender and slavery. it is a religion of justice. the whole meme about islam being a religion of peace was first uttered by bush right after 9/11. and by peace he meant slavery and surrender to the west. like all good anglos he had to use one word but really mean another. and that is the problem with any western man who objects that islam is not a religion of peace. he is really saying that islam is not submitting to the will of the european and giving peace and prosperity to the euroepan parasites. what your words mean in a dictionary is different from what you mean when you say them. it is easy to see the meanings are different by the way your kind uses them. i am smart to your ways of conning people with your dictionaries while meaning something else. this bull shit will not work on me, you con man.
>>551404
> The first time we have any two-page manuscript fragment of the New Testament is from around the year 200 CE.
That is because it is a anthology, at first the Gospels were standalone. The cannon Gospels were written in between 62 CE and 134 CE.
>>552701
i never said they worship her as one god. i said they worship her as if she was as god. and the same goes for the so called veneration of saints by catholics. they are your gods in the eyes of islam.
>>552747
There's been speculations within early western scholars but it's now pretty much proven that when it says lettered it means someone who can write and read Syriac. For further reference you can check "the syro-aramaic reading of the quran".
>>551785
well my reason says that the so called "words of God" are just the words of men
>>552750
Hey guesss what? Even though I am a Muslim I got your reference to Mos Eisley Cantina scene in the New Hope.
Peace be upon you Brother and stop imagining we all live in a cave and want to kill you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjRI2AsF3h0
>>552750
are you talking about the anglo race ? the islamic revolution was the middle eastern peoples liberating themselves from the centuries long slavery of the hated roman and the persian. there were plenty of christian arab tribes in the armies of muslims that fought the romans. read about the ghassanids and lakhamids as one example of it. also read about the followers of arianism and the welcome muslims received from the copts
>>552777
Literally Ancient Aliens tier. No academics take it seriously.
>>551850
So you're saying Allah wants me to worship space rocks?
>>552790
>worship
I don't think this means what you think it means, anon.
>>552736
No. I am OP.
I'm also a faggot and Allah was a dirty pigfucker.
>>552790
rocks have been used as markers from things since the beginning of time. the rock is irrelevant, what is important is that the all muslims turn towards the same direction.
>>551845
It serves as a point of unity for the ummah. As God is One, the believers submit collectively in one direction.
>>552790
I said it was a marker sent from Allah to allow everyone to pray in the same directtion.
Allah would be happier to see the Kaaba destroyed then he would one innocent human be killed. It is just a building.
God is good and he is the greatest.
>>552647
don't worry, pakis will be pakis
>>552732
>because the caliph is nothing special
watch yo mouth boi
>>551728
>The Quranic subtext is distinctly Biblical and is an obvious amalgam of Biblical apocrypha that abounded in the region at the time.
This.
Corrylidianism, infancy gospel, gospelan arian monk and some other stuff like that contributed to what is "christianity" in the Quran.
Daily reminder that a saint from a caliphate dismantled your religion a long time go.
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx
>>551547
Hell doesn't exist only heaven does
I believe in god but in a way that makes sense to the narratives of the modern world
Heaven is the surge of brain activity that you experience when you die
Time is relative so the last thing you will ever experience you will experience forever
>>551547
You can't love someone out of fear
>>551404
>Meanwhile the New Testament has approximately half a million different variations in text between different copies!!!
Um no.
>>551404
Now I'm a Muslim, but even I think you are really stretching it here. You should have just ended with its amazing how they were able to keep a similar text throughout ask these years
>>552859
>>552862
It's because I love you that I don't want you to drink molten metal forever.
Imagine burning your finger on a hot stove, then imagine that feeling over every part of your body including the insides of your eyelids and the tip of your penis and all your fingers and toes and under your fingernails and inside your intestines and your stomach. That's what Hell is like.
Now imagine the best sex with your wife you ever had then imagine a place where you have a permanent erection and are served by a troop of perfect women who do not fart or poop or menstruate and some pearly young boys that will see to your evey desire and whim. That's what Heaven is like.
It's your choice brothers. Consider it a wager, you have everything to lose for all eternity by hating God and everything to gain by converting to the one true faith and submitting to God's will.
There is no metaphysical or epistemological basis for this materialist worlview where you worship science and Richard Dawkins and naturalism and Marx. You should submit to God.
>>552903
Are you serious?
Muslims feel threatened by a stupid charicature in a low-circulation Dansih newspaper. Not that much a suprise the texts are unchanged if muslims through all history have gotten butthurt over any little change or dent to their belief.
>>552823
like a typical lying christian you have done it again. you article says
>And again, in the book of The Heifer, [114] he says some other stupid and ridiculous things, which, because of their great number, I think must be passed over. He made it a law that they be circumcised and the women, too, and he ordered them not to keep the Sabbath and not to be baptized.
i am refereing to part about circumcising women. the mutilation of female genatalia is an african practice. it has nothing to do with islam and it is almost absent from the arabian peninsula, the land of the birth of islam. only a few africans might practice it there. also this practice is not present in over 90 percent of muslims around the world and i am being generous to western statistics here. i do not really believe the western statistics about genital mutilation in the non black population of the africans. since the about quote is claiming that it is said to in the quran and it is even telling the name of the chapter, would you be willing to show me which verse?
>>552903
Says you. When I die I'm going to atheist heaven
>>552903
How embarrassingly childish that you or anyone would equate Heaven to having sex all the time.
>>552885
it is natural for the parasite to hate the anti bodies.
>>552917
an insult in peace time can be ignored and forgiven. but in wartime, every insult demands retribution.
>>552916
Communist detected.
You do realise logical positivism was BTFO decades ago?
Submission to God is the only way to eternal life (at least one that isn't full of pain for billions and billions and billions of years and so much longer than you can even imagine for infinity).
People like you worship science, but science is not God.
>>552903
you have out smarted your self with this post. you should have stayed on /pol/. nice try 10/10 for trolling effort.
