I'm doing a report on the breakup of Yugoslavia and was wondering if anybody could describe why exactly there was so much conflict in the 90s
>>537083
After Tito died, a rotating presidency was set up and ethnic tensions of old reflared. The Serbs turned Kosovo and Vojvodina into autonomous regions because of all the ethnic minorities there, which gave the Serbs 4 seats in the presidency (the also have Montenegro). In response, the other republics began to become more secession minded, which caused a feedback loop that pitted the Serbs against the other groups. This tension was strongest in multi-ethnic Bosnia, and eventually war broke out when Slovenia, Macedonia, Croatia and Bosnia seceded
Imagine Lebanese civil war, but with less fractions, more coordinated ethnic cleansing, foreign power interests ( because its in Europe ) and perhaps the best pillaging of any socialist country in their transition to a democracy ever. In the privatization that followed every ex-yu state was sacked. Criminals were given military equipment and former communists have split up in new parties. So, 26 years after the star of the war, imbeciles and now sons of imbeciles govern each of the states with massive and extremely porous goverment administrations. Of course, Slovenia didnt participate in the war and they are butthurt till this day because they are not enough Slav to be embraced by other ex-yu states and not enough European to be accepted by European states.
OP here, is this a good documentary?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt5n2381Fzc
Economic problems during the 70s and the 80s, particularly in Serbia and Croatia. The intellectual elite in Serbia start jacking up nationalism, Greater Serbian Kingdom and what have you. Milosevic on the rise. Tito dies. Serbia starts groping at the Federation, asking for more powers (don't remember how in the practical sense). Most of the Yugoslav army logistics are situated in Serbia so that when Croatia and Slovenia wants to say "fuck this and fuck you" to Serbia, Serbia gets its dick hard and goes guns blazing. Meanwhile you have two oppressed majority muslim people, the Slavs in the form of Bosniaks and the Albanians of Kosovo who really had no position in YUGOSLAVIA to begin with - except for their unrelenting hold to Kosovo as a historically Albanian place; and for the most part the demographics are on their side. Kosovar Albanians lose the autonomy granted by the Tito era when Milosevic has other plans. This spurs the culmination of Albanian longing for true independence in the area. Meanwhile the Serb intelligencia vehicle rants historical fallacies about Kosovo Polje and speaks about how Muslims are the true degenerates and that they should be removed. Obviously in the end it's all a geopolitical scheme to further their position in the region, Balkan muslims are the least hardcore in all the world, and the cultural dissimilarities between a Serb and a Bosniak are fucking minimal.
Conclusion: Bad economic times (almost always the factor in everything from marital relationships to that between nations, since you're obviously a pleb), Serb intelligencia vehicle and a power vacuum left by Tito which Serbia tries to fill.
Here's a reply in your 4 replies thread, if it hasn't even been deleted by the time I wrote this.
Beware: Serbs, Albanians and Croats will enter the thread to post their perspectives.
In the end know this: Serbia is lying.
When will we /yu/nite again? End the hatred! Accusing Serbs or accusing Croats is never the right way to go, for they are not different people, but the same.
Borders between brothers are useless, nationalism is evil, and nobody has benefited. The glorious partisans fought for our freedom, but nationalists - ON ALL SIDES - destroyed it.
I'm no "Bosniak", " Croat" or "Serb", I don't hate others for having any religion, or not having any religon. I'm a Yugoslav - the only thing that should be, the rest is artificial, and venomous.
>>537083
Here's the map.
Now try to make nation-states out of it.
>>538226
Slovenia is clear cut
>>538226
>albanians north of mostar
top qeq
>>538248
That's why their war of independence is called the Ten Day War.
>>538220
The Federation was inherently a shallow concept founded on a false idea that all Southern Slavic people are the same.
In it existed only political plays by one after the other to consolidate as much power for their own people as possible. The power conflict lives on also today, just not in the shade of a "shared entity", but in the open.
You are a mix babbie. Croat and Serb. You are the product of a deceitful idea that has now passed its time. You can broker peace between these two entities, but you had best not believe that something like a reciprocal union can exist between them.
They are separate people and should remain so.
>>538226
>Albanian Kosovo
>>538271
A federation could be the only possible way to ensure the rights of all the people because of the clusterfuck that is yu
>>538284
Kosovo is ethnically Albanian you fuck
>>538289
No. There would have to be an entity to ensure that none is above the other. Like the EU. When France and Germany made progress towards a kind of unification, through the market of coal and steel, the USA was there to ensure that these two bound themselves properly.
Had they gone in on it solely by themselves, it would have been a continous problem in regards to finding the middle point in their dealings. The one would try to win over the other.
>>538284
It's almost as if adjacent countries often have similar ethnic populations.
>>537083
usa and germany were inciting shit behind the scenes. you cant just have a nation of 20 million in the heart of europe refusing to get with the program.
>>538284
Are you retarded?
>>537083
I'll try to give you the abridged version.
The political boundaries of Yugoslavia were pretty confusing by the time the 1974 revision of their constitution and the division between national and local authority was unclear. Yugoslavia was made up of six republics: Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia (hybrid state fabricated by Yugoslavia; FYROM to the Greeks) and two autonomous regions, Kosovo and Vojvodina. This all fell apart after Tito died in 1980 as his stature and charisma was the only thing keeping the whole experiment running.
Debt finally caught up to Yugoslavia as they found quickly that they could not pay back the Western loans that propped up their economy. Massive inflation kicks in and each of the republics is looking to save their own ass. Looking to fill Tito's power vacuum, nationalist fervor was whipped up by ambitious local politicians. Slobodan Milosevic of Serbia and Franjo Tudjman of Croatia were on a collision course that could only lead to war. Slovenia also a had a small role in creating the tense pre-war atmosphere.
The wars themselves were sporadic and spilled into each other:
1. Slovenian secession (1991)
2. Croatia-Serbia (1991-95)
3. Bosnia (1992-95)
4. Kosovo (1999)
man.
what the fuck was up with yugoslavia.
>>537083
Because the US funded the rebels to break off from Serbia and then bombed a bunch of civillians
BBC has a great documentary on the rise and fall of Milosevic called "Death of Yugoslavian" and something else
>>537083
use Death of Yugoslavia as the western pigs base, mix in a bit of Weigth of Chains propaganda powder and spice it up with a bit of slovenian butthurt (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L5Qm-qRjqg)
In the end, pic related
Was there ever a more based man in history than Tito?
>built a nation from ashes
>successfully implemented socialism
>but with a pro market approach
>managed to unite the tribes
>told Stalin to fuck off in the process
>founder of the non aligned movement
>was a dictator but a benevolent one who the people adored
Its like when a family falls apart because the father figure died ;_;
>>541151
>successfully implemented socialism
He didn't. Basically he was running the country on western loans that were given to him because of his anti-Soviet stance. The moment USSR became history and westerners started demanding payments, the whole Yugo shithouse collapsed.
>>541151
>built a nation from ashes
>successfully implemented socialism
>pro market approach
The implementation of socialist ideas was actually done by subbordinates, like Kardelj and Horvat.
The from ashes and pro market solution is basically
>acquire loads of debts from the west
>die before the inevitable economic collapse
>benevolent dictator
If you ignore political internment camps like Goli Otok, a large propaganda apparatus and general societal and economic pressures from the communist party.
And that' not even going into the mid/post ww2 killings of opposition.
He was an excellent diplomat though and managed to keep yugoslavia out of Stalin's sphere, that's true.
>>541162
I'm not from the Balkans.
>>541162
>he is "The Other"
leave that for /int/ please
>>540125
The fuck are you on about? Economic separation was already beginning to yank the republics apart before Tito had passed away. Sure, the post-industrial West may have botched any attempt at support during the conflict but they definitely didn't incite it.
>>541169
something something american imperialism something something serbia is the eternal victim :^)
>>541151
He was definitely an interesting and lovable figure but his rule was almost dependent on the continuation of the Cold War. He found a captivating temporary solution to the Yugoslavian percentages agreement but in the end it was really just a house of cards.
>>541160
I definitely don't think he's the benevolent figure we Americans made him out to be for the reasons you pointed out but there's something to be said for the amount of controversial art he permitted.
Punk music by the sons and daughters of the party cadres directly attacked dysfunctional elements of Tito's communist party. The director Dusan Makavajev also made overtly anti-communist films during Tito's rule. A few artists emigrated to America but the vast majority of them felt comfortable enough to stay and continue with controversial art.
>>541174
Sure, call it American Imperialism... I guess you'd rather see Tito roll over to Stalin's bulgarian encroachment.
>>541191
Well it definitely wasn't as opressive as the soviet government or even the chinese one.
Generally, pressure came in its soft variant, the "not really dangerous" opponents of the regime having difficulties with attaining higher positions or even getting a job.
The youngesters (punks, etc.) were harrassed by the police, locked up for a day or two and so on.
I think a lot has to do with the general perception of authority with yugoslavians, people just bribed to get by the "opressive rules" and nobody cared as long as you weren't a real danger to the regime.
short version: Tito contained nationalistic tendencies and conflict in SFRY, afer his death, nationalism started rising, especially in Serbia. Add shit economy, and you get states like Slovenia and Croatia seeking independence.
Now, Serbian propaganda creates a myth that newly elected governement in Croatia is nationalistic and wants to wipe out Serbian minority. local serbs arm themselves and start doing shit in so-called Krajina, piece of land in Croatia that is now suddenly ancient Serbia because reasons. At the same time, Yugoslav army, to ''protect Yugoslavia'' invades Croatia. War begins, lot of shit from both sides, etc. War ends in august 1995 with operation Storm, which drove out rebelled Serbs (army and civilians).
didn't feel like greentexting, sorry if this makes it too hard to read, This is just a short version, you should remember it was a consequence of atleast a century old events and it is very complicated.
>>541223
>wasnt as opressive as the soviet or chinese
M8 from 1945-1981 there were 1.17 mil victims, and the country had around total 20 mil people.
The mass slaughter of Croatians, Slovenes, Germans, Hungarians and some Serbs ("chetniks" that didn't transfer to "partisans")
Secret police murdering people that escaped Yugoslavia (there are ongoing trials in germany now), neighbours telling on their neighbours, friends for some benefits. Prosecution of religious leaders. Also if you're not in the party, you're essentially a lesser citizen.
Tito had charisma and western money. After he died it was gone and all that repressed anger came out.
>>541255
>1.17 mil 45-81
can you source that?
Also, I wonder how much of that is directly the post ww2 killings.
Everyone seriously mellowed out after they got to kill their "insert other ethnicity/ideology" neighbours.
>>538284
>"""""""""Kosovars"""""""""
>existing
top kek, they're either albanians or serbs
>>541268
you'll find no real sources yet, as we still haven't come to terms that he was a criminal dictator (propaganda and brainwashing does that to people)
it's from wikipedia though
but here's the post ww2 killing thing sourced
Kroz naše zatvore je prošlo između 1945. i 1951. 3,777,776 zatvorenika, dok smo likvidirali 586,000 narodnih neprijatelja.”
(Aleksandar Ranković, iz izvještaja u beogradskoj skupštini, Politika, Beograd, 1.veljače 1951., str.1)
Through our prisons from 1945 and 1951. 3.7 mil people went through and we've killed 586k "state enemies".
He was the head of secret police.
>>541279
it is serbian clay, don't get me wrong, but all serbs moved from kosovo over the years, because it's a poor shithole of a region.
Albanians are majority there for quite some time now.
>>541290
>you'll find no real sources yet, because muh feels
yeah... can't find anything on what Rankovič said, apart from your exact quote and source copy pasted on a bunch of croatian forums
And 586k is a lot different than 1.17mil
Why such exact numbers if primary sources aren't showing up?
truly, as that pic says >>541142
No thanks, wouldn't want Slovenia to lag any more behind other European countries.
>>541427
What language is that?
It looks like Slovenia and Croatia had a retarded baby
>>541441
>retarded baby
Serbo-Croatian, I guess.
>>541447
Do Croats still use miljuna?
>>541452
I don't know, I'm not a Croat.
>>541452
milijun as in milion? Yes, we do.
>>538220
>macedonian
>>541403
That is only until 1951.(so post ww2), Remember tito ruled for 30 years, and the socialism was active for 10 more...
>>541866
ok, but it's still a very dubious claim, you've given one untracable! source for 1 million deaths, which is a HUGE number
>>541891
it's an estimate from people, as i already said, half of the country was born under propaganda and repression, there was no news about someone getting arrested, people just vanished.
Croatian ex-president even considers Tito a hero. Research of it may happen with the new Croatian government, but you have to understand, half of our politicians are ex-Communist Party officials, or even worse UDBA (intelligence agency).
Is it really so hard to believe that after killing half a million in 6 years, they killed another half a million in the next 40 years?
>>541912
Except this is a BS number
And the majority of those imprisoned and executed would have been pro-Moscow Stalinist Communist Party members opposed to Tito and his split from the Cominform
>>541942
no it wouldn't, most of those were Croatians (google Bleiburg) and the other nazi loyalists, there weren't many loyal to Stalin, Tito was god to partisans and many submitted to his will.
You call it bullshit, yet i say it's estimated and you wont find anywhere the real number. The only true number is from 1951. 586k dead from the head of secret police at the time.
>>541942
ok so i found who said the 1+mil number.
The former bishop of Krk Valter Župan compared Tito to Hitler, saying of a statistic that total of 1.129 mil people died.
Where he got the statistic from, i don't know.
Though our priests have no love for communists, over 600 catholic priests were killed by them and Yugoslavia terminated all relations with Vatican.
>>541912
>it's an estimate from people
can you be more vague?
I mean, what you did is possible to literally make up
"I single handedly raped over 9000 fuccbois."
(Albert Einstein, Fifth Solvay Conference, October 1927, manuscript, page 3)
I know you can't trace this source anywhere, but people still haven't come to terms with it, but they estimate this.
See, it's as easy as that.
And yes, it's hard to believe that literal mass killings happened in peacetime Yugoslavia, especially after 1947.
There's no simple answer, since many factions are involved.
>Serbs and Croats live next to each other, cool relations for centuries (in 9th century according to some records Croats even helped Serbs against Bulgarians)
>Turks come
>Serbs settle Croatian land escaping Turks
>they are given privileges for acting as frontiersmen and fighting Turks
>relations between Serbs and Croats are cool, they are practically same people of different denomination (practically, not saying they are same)
>even Austrians and Hungarians mix them together
>19th century
>nationalism
>Croats are divided between pan-Slavism (Yugoslavism is a Croatian idea) and nationalism
>Serbs in Croatia still have privileges, Croatia is divided in three parts (plus Bosnia if you count it as Croatian)
>some Serbs support Yugoslavism, some support it only formally, some work as Hungarian tool for fucking up Croat goals
>some Croats are more oriented towards Croatian nationalism and hate Serbs
>some Croats work for Austrians and Hungarians
>WW1
>some Croats gladly rush to fight Serbs, some oppose it
>even Serbs fight Serbs in A-H army
>Serbs are victors and Croatia is united with Serbia
>they get fucked over with some exchange of currency or something
>state is increasingly Serbocentrist Yugoslavia
>it becomes dictatorship later on (King Alexander)
>Croatian nationalists wanna go, some want reform
>in WW2 Croatian ultranationalists (appointed by Italians and Germans) commit a genocide against Serbs (several hundred thousand people)
>Serbs obviously don't like this
>still more Croats fight for Tito, Yugoslavia is formed
>but in this Yugoslavia, Serbs don't have much power
>in 1974, Serbia losses Vojvodina and Kosovo
>before that, Montenegro is brainwashed into being not-Serb
>Serbs in Bosnia outside of Serbia too
>economic problems
>Serbian nationalism rises due to above mentioned things and rise of Albanian nationalism in Kosovo
>Yugo wars happen
And this is just short Serb-Croat history.
Economic fuckups fueling nationalism.
>>538226
you could say the same about pre-prussian germany and other nation states. It's not a real argument.
>>541151
>built a nation from ashes
kinda
>successfully implemented socialism
state driven capitalism =/= socialism
>but with a pro market approach
only because he had to
>managed to unite the tribes
well that worked out well now didn't it.
>told Stalin to fuck off in the process
granted
>founder of the non aligned movement
if you consider this to be a good thing
>was a dictator but a benevolent one who the people adored
well that's kinda the point of cults of personality, isn't it?
>>541290
svako citira taj rankovicev "izvjestaj", ma da ga fakat nikad nisam vidio svojim ocima, samo kao citat na hrvatskoj vikipediji, koja sad stvarno nije neki kvalitetan izvor.
>perspectives
Serbs didn't want a break up. Their government at the time was Balkan ideological nightmare trying to 'free' Croatian land and create the great Serbia on the expense of much of today's Croatia (this is one of Serbian goals of ages that always failed so far). Later Croats and Serbs tried to split Bosnia in two and share the territory according to populational nationalities, which also resulted in ethnic cleansing made on both sides.
