Has childhood indoctrination had a net positive or negative effect on society? Not just religion, any ideology throughout history.
>>525968
Positive, but only because of the most basic functions of it, not the appropriation of the potential for indoctrination for a multitude of purposes.
Having gullible children that will take it at face value that 'you shouldn't swim in the river because there are crocodiles' or 'don't eat random mushrooms' rather than question it and 'test it for themselves' would seem to be a necessity.
>>525988
>Having gullible children that will take it at face value that 'you shouldn't swim in the river because there are crocodiles' or 'don't eat random mushrooms' rather than question it and 'test it for themselves' would seem to be a necessity.
That's not indoctrination into an ideology.
>>525968
Positive, but only because of natural selection.
Rich parents make it difficult to discern environment from genetics/culture, but when it has been going on for this long, waning but always waxing again further down the line, you know they are doing something right.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/jan/20/oxfam-85-richest-people-half-of-the-world
mootnote: Obama is related to King John so let's all accept genetics plays a role and not get into any race bait or /pol/-tier nonsense.
>>525761
Just imagine where society would be if we brought up children with critical thinking and rationality instead of religious dogma.
>>526047
>Rich parents have rich kids
And what does inheritance have to do with ideology?
>>526044
But is it the original process which later co co-opted for indoctrination purposes, I'm looking at it from the evolutionary origin of the potential for indoctrination, sorry if this is a bit too off topic.
otherwise i'd say childhood indoctrination has overall lead to massive amounts of avoidable conflicts and suffering.
>>526047
Affluence (please excuse the term, not my fault the quack on the Ethan Couch case created the one that gets blasted on the media) is actually a big part of nurture in psychology.
Generally speaking they have some of the problems that lower class families have with their children but for different reasons such as a higher risk of alcohol and drug abuse due to wealth, lack of warmth or supervision from unavailable parents in high positions, and stress or anxiety from parent's high expectations.
>>526053
Suicide rates would double. The fedora industry would be a major player in global economics.
Art and Culture would die out.
Let's not indoctrinate chilrden at all and let them choose themselves when they are older, ok?
>>526782
To be honest, I can wait for the world to finally progress to a fedora-based economy
>>526788
The decline of religion across the world is killing culture everywhere.
>>526804
Source?
>>526782
>butthurt humanities&arts student spotted
>>526842
> implying it's lack of religion and not consumerism and globalization that is killing the old culture
>>526842
So you're saying a big city like for example Wien has less culture than your religious extremist trailer park community or fucking raqqa?
You fell for the 4chan christianity meme
>>526866
>implying consumerism and globalisation aren't consequences of said lack of believe
>>526876
All the culture that Wien has stems from a time where people where still religious. Culture has stagnated in Wien as well.
The problem with trailer parks is that the people who live there are (usually) morons. And poor.
You need to have the ability (skill + tools) to craft things. Religion provides a reason to craft things.
Trailer park societies have (or should have) a reason to craft things but not the ability. People in big cities (often) have the ability but no reason.
>>526890
But morons are statistically the only people who still take religions seriously.
You need to make up your mind of what is needed to create culture because religion and intelligence are not compatible,not anymore.
>>526890
>Religion provides a reason to craft things
>Trailer park societies have (or should have) a reason to craft things but not the ability
> People in big cities (often) have the ability but no reason.
>muh generalisations
>muh false dichotomy
>pic related
>>526893
>religion and intelligence are not compatible,not anymore.
>this is what atheists actually believe
I'm not to much of a religious person myself but some of the most intelligent people I know are religious.
This might be kinda true in the US though, since you don't have any kind religious education in school.
>>526903
>>this is what atheists actually believe
>believe
*know
>I'm not to much of a religious person myself but some of the most intelligent people I know are religious.
Muh personal experience
>>526893
>religion and intelligence are not compatible,not anymore.
That's pure indoctrination, if you live away from the constant media attack you can perfectly have a religious life and question many other aspects of your life. There is too many people who lack both religion and intelligence for your statement to be true.
>>526919
Are you even aware there is a field called STATISTICS?
>/his/ - History & Humanities
>History & Humanities
>& Humanities
Oh right,this is the retard containment board now,thanks mods I just wanted a history board.
>>526909
>But morons are statistically the only people who still take religions seriously
I'd love to see that statistic
> religion and intelligence are not compatible
muh unsupported claim
>I can't respond to your argument properly, therefore I will make a post that contains absolutely nothing exept for some strawmanning
:^D
This thread is further proof that we need /rel/
>>525968
Childhood indoctrination was always seen as very useful in dictatorial regimes, probably since Hitler. It was always based around "The nation is your true parents, if your biological parents do not agree with the nation's leader denounce them to the nearest policeman"
Apart from that children couldn't be indoctrinated before schools existed, and since the 21st century teachers toned down with political indoctrination in Europe (from what I've heard there are still pledges to the flag in the US)
I've had adblock on and no TV for the last eight years and it's genuinely terrifying for me to watch TV ads nowadays. It's like propaganda in defense of idiocy.
I mean, genuinely, Marketing as a profession is just a place to put spare middle-class people, but it has such an impact on the modern world, more so than any war-time propaganda we've seen.
Might seem irrelevant to this thread, but as a kid I remember 'ironically' quoting adverts, buying the advertised shit and mocking it to my friends, all of whom knew the ads and thought it was hilarious that they could convince anyone to buy shit, while still buying it all the more. Today's adverts are so much worse, and I grew up in a fairly high-education environment. It's scary what marketing is doing to the kids of today without even trying.
In the case of religion, positive.
In the case of political regimes or governments, usually negative.
>>526965
>Today's adverts are so much worse
Nothing changed at all. You're realizing that now because you're less of a dumb little shit
>>526924
>>526987
>can't respond to my argument
>posts this pic
ok
>>527038
and yes i am aware that i am no better than you for using anecdotes.
>>526965
there was a pretty interesting video from the university of california yt channel about how adevertizement started to completely focus on kids in the 90's. I remember it mentioned that Rugrats was the first show where a car company payed for the presence of their product, so kids would push it on their parents. No one in that team considered what it means to convince kids of stuff just for short term sales. Dogs eat the poop of puppies because it attracts predators and the instinctively protect children of the species, we brainwash them to sell something in the next two years and don't care how that affects them.
>>526782
The suicide rate rise might actually happen. Realistic outcome assessments and self evaluation is correlated with milder cases of depression. People recognizing their limited potential, or that hard work might not pay off, tend to struggle to motivate themselves.
>>527074
Would you link this to the lack of a religion?
>>527051
Marketing is always about choice, not about forcing someone to buy something. It's about, when someone wants to buy something, to tip the balance in favor of a certain product rather than another product. Marketing isn't created against free will, but against word of mouth and comparative reviews on the quality of products.
People are forced to buy cars, but for a variety of other reasons, either practical or psychological, which have nothing to do with marketing.
>>526903
Correlation doesn't stop being correlation because outliers exist. It'd be better if anon didn't assume or imply causation though. It's not as if religion makes you dumber.
>>527086
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
What do you think? I dont think there are many atheist guayanese people.
Pro religious stances crumble over the weight of empirical data.
>>527086
(i'm not that anon)
there's a certain factor that is just having time to care about that, if you work from sunrise to sunset you don't have time to care about that and if you wish to kill yourself it might have more to do with how horrible your life is. But in general there is people who don't kill themselves because it's penalized in their religions, that's why it's part of so many of them.
>>527092
I'm sorry I made it sound as if I was talking about free will at any point. That's not the issue. I worry about educating people in short term elements that serve no purpose with enough intensity to make it evident in nation wide sales numbers. Instead of caring about educating kids into a certain path society finds better for them, using them to sell something to their parents (or to buy candy and soda pop drinks).
>>527092
And history is the objective re-telling of past events by a group of educated people, advanced to make the lives of the future generations better.
You can say these things on the internet, but if you watch TV after a few years of (mostly) ad-free life, you will also see the words OBEY and CONSUME flashing on the screen, instead of whatever comfortable middle class person talking about how happy they are they bought their newest enema set or whatever.
>>527106
See
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
How come atheist denmark is so low and religious poland so high?
>>525968
>childhood indoctrination
Christmas classically conditions people to be Atheists, this has a negative effect on society in many ways.
>>527106
So then religion has nothing to do with it.
It seems that as time continues, the organization of labor determines the happiness of the individuals in a society.
>>527114
Because denmark is a good country to live in and poland is a shit hole (no offense to polish people, they have some great stuff there, like film history, but it's mostly a product of being a shit country). Also, I don't know about this, is religion really as present now as it was before the enlightenment?
>>527123
that sounds like one of those things strange enough to be true, but I'm gonna need some source before I start spouting it everywhere like a piece of shit
>>527086
Religion is one of a few methods for maintaining inflated self worth and unrealistic optimism. It also lets you spin failure and tragedy as necessary. I can't imagine it's the only available method for this. If someone buys into the problem of evil argument it probably indicates that they have a hard time buying the necessity of tragedy and will likely not be comforted by religion alternatives though.
>>527131
>that sounds like one of those things strange enough to be true, but I'm gonna need some source before I start spouting it everywhere like a piece of shit
I am the source.
>>527131
> is religion really as present now
Sure is. The question remains whether or not it is religion (the basic philosophy of the individuals in a state) or the state of the laborer that determines overall happiness.
>>527138
The factors may be many, but there has to be one which is fundamental, an overall determinant in the individual's happiness. Otherwise, for what purpose does civilization exist (but not to raise the average hedons of the individuals in the society)
>>527106
Well at their age they learn enough to be eventually productive at the working age, and still have time where their brain is available. Once all the necessary parts of education are being fulfilled, there's no real trouble with filling their time with useless knowledge or advertising headlines
Furthermore the most important point here is that watching adverts or kid shows is never mandatory. Parents could spend the kid's childhood teaching him about more essential knowledge, never letting him watch TV. They don't do it because it takes time and a kid who doesn't watch TV shows would become a social outcast. It's not like watching ads is erasing essential knowledge from them
>>527113
Everyone watching ads know that the product shown isn't the best, by the mere fact that they, for instance, will encounter several ads talking each about how a certain car is better than others. Mass consumption is encouraged by your neighbor, not by ads
>>527147
>but there has to be one which is fundamental,
why?
there could be one that's 20% and then smaller reassons, there could be varying degrees from sector to sector of society, there could be no way to gather this data since people who kill themselves can't testify why they did it.
is there anything worse than atheists masturbating over their false sense of knowledge and truth?
>>527249
Do you realise the irony of your post?
>>525968
>those first five statements exactly describes how i feel and see myself
>am atheist and single and unemployed and so have no one to submit to
ma sranje...
>>527157
But these sociological factors must influence even each other.
I would say people in a society are under two distinct obligations: to work, and socialize. Labor relations are a huge part of sociology, but religion is the essence of the foundation of civilization, which influences human behavior more? That is the question that should be examined.
>>527312
those arent just obligations those are actual human needs
and they arent realy distinct either
>>527321
To labor is a human need?
Wait, wait. First lets define 'labor'.
>>526053
You don't have to imagine anything, just look around you. You're already living in your liberal utopia. Pure ideology, and people much like yourself think they have transcended it!
>>527325
sure its a banal necesity to work to generate what is needed to live, but further than that doing stuff is a biological need, humans need to do productive work one way or another, othervise replace that with any form of similar activity, or they start to stagnate and colapse psychologicaly and physicaly, which is basicaly to say the same thing, the system deteriorates if it isnt adequately used
>>526804
Plenty of culture and history has been destroyed in the name of muh religion. Christians and Muslims have destroyed the works of other faiths for centuries.
>>527373
I'm guessing you were posting this for the holocaust thread, because there's one.
PSA: Statistics about atheism and happiness are BS.
I've seen many people post something along the lines of "studies show that atheists are less happy than theists" and stuff like that.
Great. That very may well be true. But shouldn't we pause for a moment and think about WHY that might be true?
From my own experience, I've never been depressed directly because of my belief. I've never had some existential crisis over whether or not I'm right, or whether or not there's a god. I don't feel "purposeless" without religion. I have a great life, I feel fulfilled with my personal and professional relationships, and am generally pretty happy.
But I do get depressed sometimes. I'm depressed because if I ever wanted to run for President of the United States, I'd have to lie about my atheism to get the public to accept me. I'm depressed that certain people would think less of me or stop talking to me because of my beliefs. I'm depressed that I don't have a good relationship with my parents because of religious differences.
Basically, I'm not depressed because of atheism. I'm depressed because of the societal status of being an atheist.
Gay teenagers are more likely to commit suicide than straight teenagers. Is it because gay people are less happy? Yes. They're less happy because our hetero-centric society treats them like shit
>OP says the thread isn't about religion
>most posts are about religion
I'm not saying you guys are from reddit but this is getting quite reddit-y
How about we consider state education, something that has been going on for less than 200 years, or exposure to news media modeling how we percieve the current events around us, or the reduce interaction among little kids compared to 40 or 50 years ago.
Is it even possible to not indoctrinate a child? No matter what you tell a kid, you're indoctrinating them with something.
>>527854
>I'm not saying you guys are from reddit but this is getting quite reddit-y
It was mainly Christians shitposting about atheism, then things got out of hand. First few posts were good though.
>>527843
I'm an atheist burger and unless you live in bumfuck nowhere Alabama or something you hardly get treated like shit for being an atheist.
Anyway, it would be helpful to compare the happiness ratings for other religious minorities in the US like Jews, Catholics, or Muslims if you want to make that claim.
>>527899
Some ideology is better than others. Compare:
>If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods.” ... Show them no pity. Do not spare them or protect them. You must surely put them to death. ... Stone him to death who tries to turn you away from the Lord your God.
-Jehova (Deuteronomy 13:8-10)
>The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God’. These people are corrupt, they have done vile deeds. None of them do good.
-King David (Psalms 14:1)
>If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. ... Whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. ... He who has believed and has been baptized will be saved, but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned ... [And] this is how it will be in the end: the angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
-Jesus Christ the Lord (Luke 14:26, John 3:18, Mark 16:16, Matthew 13:49-50)
>He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction.
-Saint Paul (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9)
To
>Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson (Letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787)
>>527916
I live in Washington state, and I got kicked out of my house when I came out as atheist. Had to go live with my brother to finish up high school (he was also Catholic but we were closer, and he was more tolerant).
it's only indoctrination if you yourself don't believe it to be true
if parents genuinely believe in God, and Jesus, then it would be child abuse to not teach their children of his teachings
>>527854
>How about we consider state education, something that has been going on for less than 200 years
Education has always been controlled by the elites. Seems to have worked out fine, as even scientists like Einstein weren't endoctrinated into Nazism yet heavily involved in their schools.
>exposure to news media modeling how we percieve the current events around us
I don't remember being interested in the news until after I was a child.
>the reduce interaction among little kids compared to 40 or 50 years ago.
This one is actually very interesting, and I don't know if the outcome will be positive, neutral, or negative
>>527945
>it's only indoctrination if you yourself don't believe it to be true
That's false simply by definition
>>526044
It is. It's fundamental statement about what things are harmful, what things should be avoided, which is what religious morality does all the time. You can societies which believe that cutting oneself ie bloodletting with Aztecs is a good thing. A statement about harm is th fundamental basis for value statements which are the basis for all ideologies.
>>525968
I would consider it child neglect if you didn't indoctrinate your children.
>>527947
>Education has always been controlled by the elites. Seems to have worked out fine.
Not really. In many cases, mainly when state education was starting, it was managed by the people who cared about it. Be it in the US with Dewey or Latin America with Simon Rodriguez or Europe with Comenius; there was always an interest in contextualizing information and generating critical thinking. Yeah, soon enough the states wanted to use it to form citizen who believed in nationalism and shared a common language, but even then the teachers had the bigger say on how that was acomplished.
>until after I was a child
good point, it's still indoctrination but the thread isn't about that.
>>528011
the only thing worse would be dedicating too much time to those distractions instead of the actual discussion, don't you think?
>>528011
Can I ask what makes it reddit-y?
I've never actually gone to Reddit.
>>528089
I don't know if the use of the term "reddit-y" in this thread's context is based on a particular subreddit's tendencies or something but on other boards here it's just a blanket statement used to call something... negative, I guess.
I've never actually gone to Reddit but it's usually the first place people point to when they want someone >>>/out/
>>526804
Religion is growing, not dying. In the West religion is dying out, but in Africa the birthrate is much higher, and parents are passing their religion down to their children.
>>527105
>Guyana
>not remembering the Jim Jones incident
>>528618
Some people say that the micronarratives of modern capitalist or post-industrialist society make the absolutism of religious extremism more atractive. Opressed people want something to tell them what to do and America is doing a poor job at that.
I fucking hate people who think growing up in a religion they disagree with is comparable to actual child abuse
>>530471
Good thing this thread is about education and not religion or abuse.
>>525968
>Not just religion, any ideology throughout history.
What, you mean raising a child? Because unless you keep them a coma they're going to learn just by virtue of interacting with their environment.
Organized religion is useless and forcing that shit on kids is disgusting because organized religion was designed to control people
if the kid chooses a religion w/o pressure then good 4 him whatever
>>530513
>if the kid chooses a religion w/o pressure then good 4 him whatever
Seems like whenever this happens they always choose the religion that is dominant in their culture.
>>527843
>muh persecution complex
>>531241
>>531248
I'm surprised muslims isn't in the 30's.
>>531268
The same reason that Christians are so high.
>>526926
Atheists are such children. Grow il you baby. This is really what it boiled down to isn't it?
"I don't like religion stop posting about it"
>>531268
Because there's a lot of people who would be horrible against each other if they weren't afraid of an eternity being punished. So they reason that people who aren't afraid of that are horrible persons.
>>526047
>mootnote: Obama is related to King John so let's all accept genetics plays a role and not get into any race bait or /pol/-tier nonsense.
So is pretty much everyone with English ancestry
>>525968
Yes.
>>525968
>cradle atheist
>spent adult life studying religion
>will never have the certainty of believing
It's not as cool as you think.
>>526047
I'm related to Henry III.
What does that make me?
