Give me the story on crimea
From Greece to Russia, its history seems really interesting, like some fringe territory on the outer rim of an empire.
>Random ancient steppe people like Scythians, Cimmerians and shit
>Greek colonies
>Cimmerian Kingdom
>Roman client
>Byzantine
>Hordes passing through like the Huns, Avars, Cums and shit, even some Goths with a special dialect
>These guys became the Crimean Tatars
>Genoese had some business there (Kaffa)
>Crimean Khanate
>Ottomans
>Russia wins it from Ottomans
>Bolsheviks take over Russia and append Crimea to Ukrainian SSR
>Commies fall and break up
>Degenerate Americans stage a coup in Kiev
>Pro-Russians revolt and call for Russian annexation
>>517653
You forgot to add that it's the last place where Goths as a thing existed [spoiler]Until late 18th century[/spoiler]
>>517653
Found the russian
>>517733
Found the Ukrainian/Redditor
>>517740
At least its better than being a zerg drone
>>517749
No, it's the same thing
>>517671
>You forgot to add that it's the last place where Goths as a thing existed
If you ignore the place called Gothia. Divided into an east and west part.
>>517653
>Degenerate Americans
ebin, you could have at least blamed the Europeans.
>>517552
Rightful Islamic clay
If you're interested in the history of the Crimea, you might want to check out Where the Iron Crosses Grow by Robert Forczyk. It mostly focuses on the region in WW2, but it does briefly discuss the history of the Crimea both pre- and post-WW2.
Its involvement with the West seems to date back to the time when the Greeks were colonizing everywhere. A bunch of cities like Yevpatoria, Feodosiya, Sevastopol, Kerch, and Simferopol got their start anywhere between the 7th and 5th century BC. These seemed to have evolved into trading hubs over time. I'm not too familiar with the political history of the region, but it tended to be a major slaving hub at least during the Middle Ages.
More recently, the Crimea has been a massive clusterfuck. It was a surprisingly diverse region leading up to WW2, with large populations of Tartars, Russians, and apparently even a German minority. Problem was, WW2 fucked all that up. The Germans targeted Jews, communists, and any other undesirable group when they held the peninsula, and the Russians made sure to fuck up anyone who wasn't harmed by the Germans. The "natives" - the Crimean Tartars - got it the worst. Most were shipped off to Siberia, but some unlucky groups (like those on the Arabat Spit) were simply thrown on barges, floated out into the Sea of Azov, and sunk. Ethnic Russians seem to have taken over since, although the region was given to the Ukrainian SSR during the Cold War (likely for administrative and political reasons).
>>517794
The Crimea has been pretty Russ-ified since the end of WW2. The Crimean Tartars may have been the original population, but now they're only 10% of the population, behind Russians (60%) and Ukrainians (24%).
>>517847
>The Crimea has been pretty Russ-ified since the end of WW2.
And this was a crime that should not be forgotten. Russians should GTFO and let the Tatars decide what to do with Crimea.
>>517847
Even if that's the case, the succession of Crimea was illegal by both Ukrainian law and international law
>>517794
>Tatars
>native to Crimea
Kek, Tatars are as native to Crimea as they are to the Americas. Beyond absurd that people state this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_okjn_Vv2M
>>517865
Unfortunately, that's more like a situation with the Natives in America. Sure they may have originally held a claim to the land and it really sucks what happened to them, but trying to undo the crimes is impossible.
>>517866
You're definitely right there. From the administrative side of things, having Ukraine handle the Crimea is better thanks to utilities. Right now, the Crimea's having issues with power shortages due to all powerplants being on the mainland.
Now I wouldn't be surprised if the population really did want to be a part of Russia, but you can hardly call what they had an "open and free" election when it was quite literally invaded and occupied by Russian troops. Secession movements are never "legal" under their home country's laws, but in this case Russia barely even tried to create a facade of legitimacy.
>>517903
Turkic Steppe Nomads are not native to Crimea.
>>517866
Fucking this
No backsies Ivan.
Turkey doesnt have rights to cyprus either.
>>517825
>was given to the Ukrainian SSR during the Cold War (likely for administrative and political reasons)
For economical reasons. Most of Crimea are barren steppes, borderline deserts. Nothing grows there unless you're doing drop-by-drop watering fuckery like Tatars originally did. Only Southern part is relatively self-sufficient but that's about it.
The only decent connection the peninsula has is through Ukraine because while there were attempts to build a bridge to Kuban, successful ones, I might add (by Nazis), it all got completely destroyed the following winter. While Black Sea generally does not freeze at that geographical point, Sea of Azov does and the resulting currents of crushed ice devastate anything. Not only that, the winter winds blowing through Kerch strait are also extremely strong and make ferry connection unreliable. So logistics are only viable through Perekop and sometimes Arabat Spit.
The main problem, however, is the lack of water. Again, Southern mountainous region is relatively self-sufficient but that does not support a whole lot of people either: it's a very thin strip of land. Everything else is a living hell to manage.
Obvious solution would be digging enough wells for ground water which Crimea does have in limited amounts, and Russkies tried that at some point. However, the result was quick substitution of fresh water by sea water; it was evident more digging would lead to total desertification and a complete catastrophe (I think retards in Gaza actually managed to achieve that back in the day).
So yeah, do you see that huge body of water in the North? That's Dnipro river, it really is huge. The only obvious option left was digging a system of irrigation channels straight from it. It had been done successfully, more or less, with a third of river's yearly water flow going to Crimea instead. Mind you, even with that titanic job done Crimean tap water was fucking salty garbage.
cont
>>517914
your point? I am just sharing a song that is about Crimea.
>>517910
>but trying to undo the crimes is impossible.
It is. I am not saying it should be done (not the same guy), but it is possible. Crimea is much smaller and much less important and the "new" inhabitants of Crimea can easily find homes in their "home" countries. Plus, the Crimean Tatars are very much alive, and many, if not most, would like to return their "home".
>>517919
I'm not even going to talk about roadways, railroad or electric network. Everything was and is handled through the mainland Ukraine.
However, we have a problem of the local population. Tatars are as indigenous as they get despite what Ivan says - because Ivan loves to pretend him being a son of a retired KGB officer who settled in Crimea for sucking up well enough makes him a native. Seriously, Crimea used to be a golden ticket for retirement for all kinds of soldiers and paramilitaries during USSR, along with decent enough Baltic coast (i.e. Latvia which also explains a lot).
Then we've got Sevastopol and Black Sea fleet stationed there. Those guys are seriously mental. I'm talking considering themselves more Russian than actual Russians mental.
Other people sent by Party to gloriously develop the infrastructure of a barren steppe are a little bit less hit in the head, thankfully.
However, most of those people are old by now, and the population of Crimea is quite old even by ex-USSR standards.
Of course, Tatars got forcibly deported and only after Ukraine got independence were they allowed to come back. There were also some Ukrainian colonists settling in Crimea ever since Ukrainian cossacks were developing what's now Ukrainian South but again, barren fucking steppe had never been a particularly attractive destination. In contrast, Kherson Region which is right next to Crimea, has always been perhaps the most Ukrainian even when the concept of "pro-Russian Southeastern Ukraine existed".
So, what do we have? We've got a peninsula with vital ties to Ukraine - especially now since Russians are trying to hide the fact that even electricity in Crimea is Ukrainian, and the Dnipro-Crimea channel stopped a year ago (meaning it's an ecological catastrophe in the making because hey, new govt just decided to dig wells all over again but that's another story) - and with the majority of the population clearly denying the very Ukrainian right for existence.
cont
![_41105378_ap_gotovina203[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/JVC3LRu.jpg "_41105378_ap_gotovina203[1].jpg")
>>517970
We do have some ways to "settle" that problem, as pic related in my previous post suggests, but that would require a lot of efforts similar to denazification and I'm not throwing words around here: Communism is same shit is Nazism with a new coat of paint.
Mass deportations or "storms" or not, nothing can actually be done to remove economic ties to Ukraine Crimea has Believe me, people tried. Autonomous republic format as it used to be before would probably work best, although perhaps with less powers to the local government.
However, I also want to talk about modern history of events surrounding Crimea as they're quite interesting, so buckle up, kids.
As some of you may know, Crimea is also a resort which, along with Abkhazia, used to be the most popular in USSR. Mostly, though, it was because beggars can't be choosers: sea is full of jellyfishes, beaches are mostly pebble where the sea is good and sand where the sea is shit and service is - well, Soviet, nuff said. More importantly, of course, is it being a base for Soviet Black Sea fleet, a powerful military structure.
Now, can you name any other regions of USSR with population hostile to majority, with strategically important location AND a ton of arms and soldiers stationed? I can.
Transnistria
Abkhazia
South Ossetia
Nagorno Karabakh
They're also suspiciously close to the borders of USSR and they almost form a belt of sorts. Almost, there is ONE missing link.
cont.
>>517970
Turkic steppe nomads are not indigenous to Crimea. They are no more indigenous to Crimea than Iberians are to Guatemala.
>>518040
Tatars conquered Crimea in the 13th Century. Saying they are native to Crimea is like saying Iberians are native to the Americas.
They are being memed as indigenous only because it is politically expedient for certain parties.
![National_Guard_of_Ukraine[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/iiegG93.png "National_Guard_of_Ukraine[1].png")
>>518014
Now we're going to 1991. USSR is slowly reforming into something supposedly more democratic, called Union of Sovereign States. Baltic states want out but it's okay, they weren't really considered an integral part of USSR by then anyway. Other regional elites are too busy negotiating the preferences for new Union Treaty. Soviet relations with the West are perhaps the best they have ever been. Hell, George H. W. Bush himself flies to Ky- then Kiev and gives his speech which instantly earns him hatred of majority of Ukrainians.
Then old hardliners from KGB decide that Gorbachev went way too far with all that Glasnost and Petestroika thing and decide it's time to Make Soviet Union Great Again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjFySKAAiDU
(pro tip: look at the hands)
Naturally, the coup falls flat but it achieves another unexpected goal: many communist elites instantly bail out of the Union, Ukraine included. Ki- Kyiv starts resubordinating troops from Kiev Military District under direct control of the republic. Supreme Council - I mean Verkhovna Rada - declares full state independence of Ukraine and schedules a referendum on independence with "Yes" getting a landslide victory (54% in Crimea, 57% in Sevastopol, third lowest result in Donetsk with 83%) on the 1st of December, 1991.
Since army structure is just too fucking huge and rigid to effectively control as of the period, newly-formed Ukrainian government decides to create a National Guard based on then-Internal Troops. National Guard was planned to be an elite rapid reaction force, the real deal.
>>518032
Russians are not indigenous to Russia either, gib Finnish clay.
Tatars lived there enough to be considered ones, even though Crimea used to be a mishmash of cultures (and none of them Russian).
>>518050
That's 700 years of constant living there, friend. Empires generally last 300-400 years.
cont
>>517653
you forgot the part where the commies cut off supplies to the half-island killing millions of tartars to resettle russians in the area
you also forgot the russian army invading and forcing the annexation when their proxy rebels lost
>>517865
That's a pre-school mentality you have there.
Russians have been there since 1783, that predates most of the USA westward expansion. Should the Americans also 'GTFO' and let the native Americans decide?
Russians have been the largest population on the Crimea for some 100 years now.
Don't be dense.
>>518014
What does Gotovina have to do with Crimea?
>>518064
I get that they've been there forever but if you consider them indigenous to Crimea then you must consider Iberians indigenous to the Americas.
>>518068
soviets*
Please don't say "Russians" when the Soviet Union was not an ethnic Russian affair. The NKVD agent who planned and executed the deportations was Lavrenti Beria, a Jew, and the designated leader of the USSR at the time was Stalin, a Georgian.
>>518050
Except there were Kıpçaks before that date too. Those Kıpçaks just adopted Tatar identity for themselves.
>>518064
However, all is not well in Crimea. Black Sea Fleet structure is so powerful that Ukrainians willing to swear an oath to Ukraine are suppressed so hard that the first ship from Crimea which dared to actually raise Ukrainian Navy flag was forced to flee to Odesa with the danger of initiating combat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_frigate_Otaman_Bilyi_(U132)
There's no foothold for Ukraine to actually concentrate around in the peninsula. Tatars are allowed to come back but Ukrainians are afraid Turks would use them as proxies so they're met with neither intrusion nor help; perhaps the worst step Ukrainian government took but what can you do.
Moreover, there's a whole bunch of economic questions to solve. Commie elites, in the beginning thinking independence was just a new toy to play with, are quickly acquainted with the real world. Granted, so are nationalists who thought people actually knew Ukraine existed.
There's hyperinflation, there's a matter of trying to figure out which of the Soviet industrial complex is actually profitable and there's a fucking Transnistrian conflict happening right at your doorstep. To the credit of old National Guard, border control at the time they had done well.
That means Crimea is basically free from the eyes of central government for a while. That means Russian proxies quickly start performing plans suspiciously close to Transnistria or Abkhazia.
Crimea was given autonomous republic rights (as opposed to the simple region it had in USSR) but shit escalated quickly.
1994 comes, Crimea wants a president now. Yuriy Meshkov is elected, and instantly starts trying to implement plans for maximum integration with Russia up to joining it: ruble zone, Moscow time, economic integration, Russian citizenship for Crimeans, invitation of Russians for political positions etc etc.
Fortunately he also ends up deep in quarrels with head of Crimean Parliament, Sergey Tsekov
cont
>>518050
huns (ie turkics) have been in the area since late 4th century russkiman. they had been warring romans and persians when the slavs were just a bunch of tribes in the area and a source of slaves for the eastern romans
in the 14th century crimean khaganate was a turkic state with mongolian dynasty, they existed to give the ottomans legitimacy in saying that they had the backing of the official mongolian dynasty
as such crimea is native greek land, turkics and mongolians having some claims in the area. russians can go suck bolshevik dick for all i care
t.turk
>>517865
The Crimean Tatars were, prior to the deportation (1939 census), a gargantuan... 20% of the population...
That's more than 75 years ago, as well.
>>518148
comfy huts > anything else
![marchuk_11bdb[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/JxcF90G.jpg "marchuk_11bdb[1].jpg")
>>518132
Russians have been the largest population on the Crimea for some 100 years now.
>on the Crimea
Fuck off Ivan, ethnically it had been majorly Tatar until you performed a genocide.
>>518138
Nothing but Operation Storm was awesome.
>>518139
I get that they've been there forever but if you consider them indigenous to Crimea then you must consider Iberians indigenous to the Americas.
They have still been there forever more than you, "indigenous" or not.
>Soviet Union was not an ethnic Russian affair
By all means it was. USSR was a continuation of Russian Empire with a new coat of paint. You love Stalin, don't you, Ivan?
>>518144
So anyway, President is fighting with Parliament and Ukraine is finally swift to act. Yevhen Marchuk, head of Security Service of Ukraine, flies to Crimea, seized the SSU building there (later he claimed Russians wanted to do it literal days if not hours after) and started a massive cleanup.
Some 20000 National Guard servicemen enter peninsula, mostly to show the authority. Russians kept waiting for evil Ukrainians coming by trains to gut them in their sleep but that didn't happen, I wonder why.
Turns out Crimea is also chock full of organized crime. Hennadiy Moskal is sent there to deal with them, which he manages spectacularly.
The position of Crimean president is of course abolished and Russia is forced to back off for a while.
In 1995 Black Sea fleet is finally divided, with 18,3% of vessels going to Ukraine and 81,7% to Russia. Many Russians still cry how that drunk retard Yeltsin gave all the fleet away.
In 1997 a Treaty of Friendship is signed between Russia and Ukraine with both states recognizing its borders and strategic partnership and so on and so forth.
However, even after that Ukrainian government did not manage to gain a decent foothold on the peninsula still. Locals were won over by donations, Russian proxies were acting freely and they were still preparing for war. Tatars were still seen as suspicious.
cont
>>518132
>but WHAT ABOUT AMERICA
Literally every fucking time.
![0fa2ab2c3bb722579c3c23af42997310[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/SbiAGir.jpg "0fa2ab2c3bb722579c3c23af42997310[1].jpg")
>>518196
Perhaps the only well-thought step was establishment of a large amount of troops, both police and army, but as Ukrainians did not conduct any propaganda work with them (and honestly, could they rival Russian machine there?), that didn't work out at all. Economic leverage was not used.
So that's how we ended up here. The final belt of "unrecognized states" was gained but for what purpose? Russia got its grapes but they seriously turned out to be fucking sour. Can they hold onto Crimea with sanctions, economy in the shitter and the peninsula itself not being sustainable? I don't think so. Maybe Sevastopol, maybe "UN rule", maybe "independent state with transitional government" but those are all details. 2016 is going to be interesting.
>>518132
>Russians have been the largest population on the Crimea for some 100 years now.
>on the Crimea
Fuck off Ivan, ethnically it had been majorly Tatar until you performed a genocide.
>>518138
Nothing but Operation Storm was awesome.
>>518139
>I get that they've been there forever but if you consider them indigenous to Crimea then you must consider Iberians indigenous to the Americas.
They have still been there forever more than you, "indigenous" or not.
>Soviet Union was not an ethnic Russian affair
By all means it was. USSR was a continuation of Russian Empire with a new coat of paint. You love Stalin, don't you, Ivan?
Forgot to put quotes there.
>>518217
>Fuck off Ivan, ethnically it had been majorly Tatar until you performed a genocide.
You do know that the term genocide has an actual definition, right? It's not just a stamp you put on any and all demographic changes you don't like.
Point being though, whether the Russians commited genocide or ethnic cleansing or not the Crimean Tatars haven't been a plurality (much less a majority) population in the Crimea for over a century.
You might as well claim that Armenians and Greeks should be the ones to ultimately decide the fate of Eastern and Western Turkey respectively. It's a bunch of nonsense.
>>518148
You mean skythes and sarmatae? Those were Iranic not Turkic and they had been there since ancient times. Nice try, T*rk.
t. Polish-American
>mfw seeing Turks ITT crying about the oppression of an ethnicity
I think the Genoan story is interesting. (this is off the top of my head so sorry for any mistakes)
Genoa bought it off the Golden Horde and made an absolute insane amount of money transferring slaves from what is now russia and ukraine through Constantinople and often as far as the Mamluks who were the Golden Hordes sometime ally. (Side note, Golden Horde became reliant on the money because they were effectively selling off their settled tax base as slaves)
After a few successions the Golden Horde wanted to punish Genoa because they were arrogant dicks and made Caffa and those in Caffa subject to Genoan law which was obviously biased against the Mongols/Turks who lived/traded there (IIRC there was a fight and some mongols died and Genoa protected the killers).
So the Mongols sieged Caffa but the Genoans controlled the sea and the Mongols were a shadow of their former self, therefore the siege was going in Genoas favour, they could get a steady supply of food, water, fresh troops etc. There was a battle and the Genoans killed 10000 mongols, but they were obviously a defensive army, not one that could go chasing mongols into the steppe so the mongols shortly after sieged the city again.
Again Caffa was getting the better of the siege and Genoa was also blockading the mongols trade ports, and there was a plague going through the Mongol camp. The mongols not being squeamish launched some of the infected bodies into Caffa infecting those inside, those inside freaked the fuck out, travelled back to europe, spreading the plague that would later be called the black death killing upto 20 million europeans.
The Genoans won the war, rebuilt Caffa and made more money transporting slaves and rhubarb.
>>518217
Delusional hoholism right here.
>>517900
Tatars are Turkic, and are descendant from the Cuman/Kipchaks that lived in the region
>>518300
>whether the Russians commited genocide or ethnic cleansing
If you believe what the Turks did to the Armenians is genocide, than the handling of the Tartars post-WW2 fits the definition. You had forced migrations to inhospitable lands ultimately followed by outright slaughter of the final populations that persisted in the Crimea.
>>519268
>Is it just speculation or is there a research on the plague part?
Its accepted that the launching infected bodies probably happened and the arrival of the plague matches with the refugees from Caffa arriving back in europe but also that the plague was arriving at the same time from other sources due to all trade back and forth.
>>517847
>Russ-ified since the end of WW2
Much longer than that.
>>517552
I had a History professor that maintained Khrushchev transferred Crimea to the Ukraine while drunk,, because he grew up in the Ukraine and loved the region.
Whatever the reason, it wasn't supposed to be a big deal, because it was all one country. Now, however, that isn't the case.
>>517794
If you're going to be a whiny little bitch at least attribute it to a people that didn't rape and raid their way there
>>518217
>USSR was a continuation of Russian Empire with a new coat of paint
Damn, you should read at least wikipedia atricle about formation of USSR before talking such things
