Can we have a thread about post-colonial Africa? It's both fascinating and often looked over apart from the big events like Rwanda '94 and Apartheid (even then, the end of it is often glossed over).
Rhodesia tolerated, but I'd really prefer to hear about other places. We always have a Memedesia thread going.
>>512679
I want to but I don't know jack shit about it
>>512679
http://exiledonline.com/its-d-day-in-zalambessa/
I've been trying to find more on this but haven't had any success. Like it says in the pic, the west is really uninterested in African politics unless it goes into the "starving African children" narrative.
OP here, gonna bump with a documentary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZbPTDZAM4o
Not really post-colonial, but it is about a bit of decolonisation that isn't really covered, even in Rhodesia threads, which is the creation and disbanding of the Central African Federation.
>>512679
>post-colonial Africa
completely fucked head over heels by the cold war.
Is Botswana recovering from the AIDS epidemic yet? I hear one of the reasons the rate is going up is because more people are surviving.
Will Africa ever get its shit together? Will it always remain a continent dominated by post-independence strongmen?
>>512679
You really can't beat Africa for colorful personalities.
Blame it on the attempt at the end of colonialism to impose parliamentary democracy on ethnically fragmented lands with marginal loyalty to the new states, coupled with a culture that prizes strongman leaders and tribalism above all. What it means is that if your tribal chief is completely bananas, you support him no matter what because it's YOUR tribe's chief.
Then you get guys like:
Emperor Bokassa of Central African Rep, accused of cannibalism.
Idi Amin of Uganda, known for genocide and mass expulsion of foreign born citizens
Joshua Blahyi, aka General Butt Naked, called such because he led troops into combat naked, believing that they had divine protection from bullets
Samuel Doe, dictator of Liberia, tortured to death on TV by a rival general
>>513022
I think in a couple decades things will get better. How better is anyone's question though.
>>513022
The only people who get paid are the guys who are willing to play ball with shady multi-nationals and foreign governments. Until that ends, either through everyone deciding to stop fucking with them or being forced out by dirt farmers, Africa will be a continent dominated by crazies shooting up regular people and selling their stuff to the highest bidder.
Some countries are already trying the kick everyone out and start pulling themselves up by their bootstraps method, but they're still surrounded by people who want nothing more than to bleed them dry.
>>513022
>be arab
>live in the 800's
>"Will Europe ever get its shit together? Will it always remain a continent dominated by post-independence strongmen?"
>>513107
[spoiler]Yes.[/spoiler]
>>513107
You are acting like Arabs in the 800's where some kind of democratic paradise.
>>513120
Why would you think spoiler tags would work in a history board? Serious question here.
>>513107
So basically you jinxed an entire subcontinent.
Bravo.
>>513022
>Will Africa ever get its shit together?
It already is, slowly
>Will it always remain a continent dominated by post-independence strongmen?
Not always of course but it will take a long time to get anywhere. Once a country has strong democratic institutions strongmen cease to be an issue, the problem is Africa has none of these and they're hard to establish.
>>513121
Literally didn't read my post. You're asking if Africa can change after no more than 60 years have past since the first countries gained independence. Maybe you haven't noticed but TIME IS PRETTY FUCKING LONG so I think it's safe to say that at some point in the future it will be different - which is to say just as horribly warlike as Europe with intermittent peace.
ETHNICALLY HOMOGENEOUS NATION STATES
Achieve this, and while everything else won't be easy, it'll be a whole lot easier than now.
>>513136
>Liberia
>20% other ethnic groups
You might be onto something
>>513136
>ETHNICALLY HOMOGENEOUS NATION STATES
It's a start but it's no guarantee of success, and Africa is an ethnic clusterfuck.
This would work in West Africa
>>513151
One big positive would be splitting up the Congo.
>>513136
That would create at least literally a hundred nations in Africa. It is nearly impossible. It is not common ethnicity is a prerequisite for a functioning society.
>>512985
Botswana abides. Nothing breaks their stride.
>>513136
Yeah, that worked out great. Just look how happy they are!
>>513154
have you ever seen a map of the Holy Roman Empire?
Let it happen. The West should not interfere, if some group or faction can break away from their current artificially imposed state, more power to 'em.
>>512679
A lot of retarded shit happening in Africa is also due to former colonial powers being not so former.
And by "powers" I mean France. "Presidents" are literally appointed by France, all their foreign policy is dictated by France and if France doesn't like anything the pres is doing, it supports a coup against him. Former British colonies have it way easier, quite surprisingly.
Bokassa? French thought he would be just the guy to support.
Rwandan genocide? French supported the people conducting it and tried to go all hush-hush about it.
French are terrible people is what I'm saying.
>>513172
>have you ever seen a map of the Holy Roman Empire?
almost all one ethnicity
>>513172
The HRE is a completely different beast from what was being proposed anon. Besides, they were all German and would, even with infighting, still work together on quite a lot of stuff, until Luther came around, that fucker.
But I agree on the West just not touching Africa anymore, every time the West does something to help it just fucks it up even more, just let Africa take its course for a while.
>>513187
my point was that extensive fragmentation isn't a barrier to functioning societies, in fact, it may be good
>>513052
I'm actually going to weigh in on the Cannibalism thing, with both Bokassa and Amin (who was accused likewise).
First of all, the charge against Bokassa for that was frankly bizarre. It was a misdemeanor offense, and way passed the statute of limitations. Even if they had any evidence, and could actually get past the statue of limitations thing, it would have had a negligible criminal effect on top of the other charges.
The reasons for it in both cases, I think, is because East and Central Africa has a tradition of hurling cannibalism as a political charge.
It's the same as why every Roman history catalogs bizarre sex. Because sexual depravity was taken to be the sign of the worst kind of ruler in Rome, and so any Emperor you didn't like was clearly a pervert.
It's a similar effect taking place: These guys are shit, so they're clearly cannibals. And Bokassa and Amin were so good at Alienating everyone that nobody was really interested in countering the charge, and western news outlets picked it up credulously.
>During MacÃas Nguema's regime, the country had neither a development plan nor an accounting system for government funds. After killing the governor of the Central Bank, he carried everything that remained in the national treasury to his house in a rural village. During Christmas 1975 he ordered about 150 of his opponents killed. Soldiers dressed up in Santa Claus costumes murdered them by shooting at the football stadium in Malabo, while amplifiers were playing Mary Hopkin's "Those Were the Days".
>>513201
>my point was that extensive fragmentation isn't a barrier to functioning societies, in fact, it may be good
I see. In that case I totally agree. I'm in favour of balkanisation in a lot of cases
>>513245
The problem here is that you're assuming that Africans subscribe to fixed, singular identities.
>>513215
you're right, they almost certainly didn't actually eat people, but its like they were so far off the scale on cruelty that anything was possible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DBGVHZc30k
The last weeks of Apartheid
>>513253
>The problem here is that you're assuming that Africans subscribe to fixed, singular identities.
I meant in general not particularly in Africa, though there are examples where balkanisation could help Africa, though it is a dangerous one.
>>513157
Botswana? More like Basedswana amirite
>>513338
This is interesting seeing as how it shows that it wasn't just the AWB nutjobs opposed to the transition. Both the Zulus and Bop have been swept under the historical rug by the ANC.
>>513777
and? it's a whole continent.
>>513097
Pretty much this entirely. Even when a leader decides to take charge and attempt to sort their nation out (Sankara etc) they're generally assassinated and then a return to the status-quo of being in utter poverty.
>>513786
That is more countries than we have in the entire planet anon.
Just making the borders on the ethnic lines is not a pratical or good solution to Africa's problems.
>>513815
Let's look at Europe then. France was a mishmash of a bunch of different people, but most of them shared vaguely French-like Romance languages, and so could be melded into a larger whole. This could be possible in Africa, but not when you have a situation like with the Sahel countries, where you have Arab and Muslim influenced culture in the north and Christian/pagan black African culture in the south
>>513136
It took two world wars and deaths on a massive scale for Europe to achieve ethnically homogenous states.
>>513825
this could have happened if the Europeans had left later and focused on setting up institutions and trying to help the formation of a national identity that could hold these countries together
>>513912
but MUH SELF-DETERMINATION
>>513918
we had already seriously tampered with their social development to the point leaving before we had them all caught up would be irresponsible
>>513052
Amin is probably my favorite dictator of all time. This crazy motherfucker challenged Nyerere to a boxing match after it became real clear Tanzania was going to wreck his shit.
>>513993
>we
Decolonization couldn't have happened at a worse time. Many of the decolonized nations fell prey to Soviet and Chinese communist horseshit five seconds after the western powers left.
>>516177
Do you think a Malaysia-style partnership could've worked in an African context? The reason, as far as I can tell, for Malaysia avoiding the fate of other former colonies was the Brits making sure the communist insurgency was handled before they left, and kept up military cooperation afterwards, which helped the Malays in their border war against Indonesia.
>>513136
>Still being a whig historian
>>513121
Just to let you know although most of the European colonisers were democratic, they did not actually run the colonies democratically. In fact, the figure of the post-colonial strongman is in some ways inspired by the colonial figure of the District Commissioner.
Omg is anything that dude says in that thread true?
>tank battles in katanga
>paratroopers blitzkrieging Congo
>>516381
The bit with Kabarabe is, yeah. Not sure about Katanga.
>>513072
sorry to break it for you bud, but you're wrong.
at least when it comes to western africa:
http://www.theatlantic.com/ideastour/archive/kaplan-4.html
>>513154
>That would create at least literally a hundred nations in Africa. It is nearly impossible
Why?
Europe has a buttload of nations for the very same reason and its way smaller than motherfucking Africa.
>>516324
it sure as shit would've helped in a lot of places.
Angola and Mozambique are two god-awful examples of different commie guerillas fighting between themselves for decades after the hasty decolonization and the end of the colonial war.
>>518000
>Angola and Mozambique
Those are pretty exceptional cases though since the Portuguese wanted to keep them indefinitely, until the revolution back home.
>>514040
Well, he was the National Champion, so there's pretty much no doubt Amin could have kicked any head of states ass, including Teddy Roosevelt.
>>517966
Yeah, West Africa is fucked. I suspect eastern and southern Africa will pick up in the coming decades.
>>517966
great piece. will be using this for future studies
>>513136
I bet you're the sort of person who thinks Europe and America should be more multi-cultural.
>>513022
Well yea. Nigeria has a building economy. And it better have because the population is going up. It won't out number the super countries in coming years, but it'll get their.
If Nigeria keeps seeing the economic success it is, then it'll become some-what of a semi super power.
>>519624
Europe shouldn't be. The mongrel 'nations' of the New World are a lost cause.
>>521077
>Implying the US isn't the greatest nations to grace this Earth
Into the trash you go
>>521322
The tribes of Africa have better chances at nationhood than present day 'Americans'.
>>521402
Yet the US is still the most powerful nation in the world, the strongest economy in the world, and the dominant culture of the world. And nomatter how jealous you are, it's not going to change reality at all.
>>523238
most powerful country or state, not nation.
>>513178
France also gave the genocidaires a free escape to East Congo. Yeah, Romeo Dallaire raged over that so hard.
>>513356
You know come there is SO MANY conservation or national parks or that they are so big in Africa?
The people that traditionally lived on those lands don't have enough people to exert political force so they lose their land to live and feed on because they have such a small population.The minute you Balkanize, the bigger ethnic homelands will eat the smaller ones. The San in Botswana are being kicked onto shitty reserves since their land contains resources and wildlife. Many colonial era massacres and genocides pretty much doomed the ethnic group subjected to them because they lsot the only power these groups had: people.
>>513458
Mandela was only negotiated with because he was the softest, softest of the bunch so he was willing to compromise on everything.
>>523278
Dividing up their whites, North East coast whites would be one of the more powerful nations.
>>523413
I thought the Zulu-led Freedom Inkhata was the more moderate of the black nationalist parties, compared to the ANC?
>>523425
>we share skin pigmentation
>we're a nation!
Americans
>>523409
As opposed to the shitshow we have now? Are you saying the Congo should remain as huge and unwieldy as it is now?
>>513136
Sure, let's do europe first.
>>527837
Europe at the moment is the best place in the world as far as those nation states go. Sure there's places like Basque country and Sapmi, but good luck with them.
