Can someone please explain to me how the "H" "R" "E" even works?
How autonomous were the states within?
How did they delegate power?
Who owns what and how?
How did war work inside?
Is it just a cluster of nation states that band together when a bigger guy threatens one of them, but otherwise they hate each other or is it more nuanced?
Do Germans have to learn about this mess in school?
Basically it was a big joke and the landed elites had all the power.
>>483077
How did the HRE work? It didn't. Full stop. Did not work.
Depending on the individual power the prince, things could very a great deal. The Elector of Brandenburg/King in Prussia, along with the other secular Electors- Brunswick-Luneburg (also called Hannover or Lower Saxony), Saxony, Palatinate, Bavaria- also had a great deal of independence. These guys could pretty much declare war on each other or foreign nations whenever, especially after Westphalia, but the Emperor usually tried to mediate (unless they declared war on him, which happened often). Two Electorates- Cologne and Mainz weren't secular, but owned by the Catholic Church, along with many other bits of territory. These Sovereign bishoprics had various degrees of autonomy and local government, many functioned like Imperial cities, some served as proxies for the families of the secular Electors, some "civil administrators" in the Northern ones were the Danes and Swedes using Protestantism to get footholds in Germany. The rest of it's seperated into Imperial Cities and Principalities, a few of the Duchies like Pomerania, Mecklenburg, Wurtemburg, Baden-Baden, etc. were more like the secular electorates, but others were little proxies or ruled by minor gentry. Imperial cities were just free cities that usually were governed like mercantile republicans, with a nod to the Emperor.
The Habsburg lands are the awkward squad of areas that would be powerful and independent, but have been conquered (usually by a Habsburg heir and a pretty daughter) and merged into a great monstrosity known as the Crownlands- including several "Austrias"- Inner, Outer, Further, Upper, Lower; as well as Tyrol, Silesia, Bohemia, Moravia and Hungary. Most had local estates that constantly wrestled with the Habsburg Emperors until Ferdinand and Wallenstein generally put a stop to that business.
>>483105
Cont.
So, pretty much the whole mess was theoretically governed by the Imperial Constitution, built upon since Charlemagne and by the 18th century, was literally impossible to compile (I'm not kidding, a guy wrote 150 volumes wasn't near done). What was important about the Imperial Constitution is not the powers it granted the Emperor, but the powers it granted everyone else. Much like Ancien Regime France, everyone had their own little rights and privileges that completely hampered reform in any war, barring war.
As for your question about a bunch of nation states (not a thing yet, but you'll get a pass) banding together when someone else threatens them...well, no. The only exception to that is the Turks, which the Emperor did play up to get war taxes in his military zones in Croatia (yes, also a Habsburg Crownland). Usually, everyone provided men and money against the Turks. There was a big exception at the beginning of the 30 Years War, where Bohemia and Hungary offered themselves as Turkish Protectorates as long as they could keep their Protestant Kings (Frederick, Elector Palatine and Bethlen, Prince of Transylvania).
Every other war was basically like that, with a few states actively working against the Emperor and the majority not really giving a rat's ass about what the Emperor did as long as he left them alone.
>>483097
Honestly people waste too much time talking about HRE. Another Western European country. All rught. Andthere are so many interesting countries nearby that get completely overlooked and nobody knows anything about them.
>>483133
care to give an example?
Or make a thread about them?
That would help spark discussion you know.
>>483077
"The Holy Roman Empire was neither Roman nor Holy."
>>483133
OP wants to know about the HRE. Not about Poland-Lithuania or the Ottoman Empire. Most people don't know jack shit about any of it.
No history is a waste of time, in my opinion.
>>483137
I was thinking of Hungary. Maybe because I really like the region of Transilvania though now it's mostly on Romanian soil. Forests, lakes and castles.
It's just everyone myself included knows basic information about the most important events and characters of Western histtory and then we found out that the Middle and Eastern Europe had its grand battles, famous knights and commanders and events that were no less important that those in the West.
Makes me wonder why everybody still focuses so much on only one part of the entire continent. Remnants of the Cold War?
>>483140
Voltaire also made clear that it wasn't an empire lol
>>483077
>Is it just a cluster of nation states
>HRE Kingdoms/Princedoms/Xdoms/Imperial & Free Cities
>Nation States
>NATION
>STATES
>Nation states
>states
>nations
>>483196
>Is it just a cluster of nation states
No it wasn't. Germany is a nation state.
>>483219
Oh, you were making fun of OP. Sorry I'm a bit slow today.
And I'm supposed to write an essay about nation states
>>483159
>Hungary
>Transylvania
If you want to complain about how Eastern European history is ignored in favor of the HRE don't talk about the places that basically were in the HRE.
Both were massively important in Imperial politics and Hungary, and later both, were Habsburg Crownlands. Yeah, it's not pop history, but very little of the HRE's history is pop history either.
>>483105
>It didn't. Full stop. Did not work.
It worked as a buffer zone between the great powers ensuring that the balance of power prevented all out war. Cardinal Richelieu and Bismark used this clay to lay the foundation for future Empires
>>483242
Fair, but as an Empire? Nah.
>>483251
Sorry badly worded, didn't mean the HRE was a great Empire, more getting at it playing a huge role in other European empires
Cardinal Richelieu played the States against each other during the 30 year war and paved the way for a powerful France which Napoleon eventually capitalized on
Bismark united what was left of the HRE and other central European clay into a powerful united Germany
>>483105
>How did the HRE work? It didn't. Full stop. Did not work.
In which respect? The HRE was always the unmatched economical powerhouse of Europe until the 30-years-war. Culture, trade and even politics flourished. If we persume that the centralized state is the end of history, of course the HRE appears pretty retarded. But in many ways, with the sheer amount of individual freedom, it was a prototype for the modern world.
>>483288
>Cardinal Richelieu played
If by 'played' you mean killing 1/3 of the entire German population, you acknowledge how ingenious 'Hitler' played the world as well.
This is one thing you must ackowledged about the HRE and its nobility. There are no cases of cruelty and utter insanity we can witness in France, Byzantinum and the likes.
>>483613
>If by 'played' you mean killing 1/3 of the entire German population, you acknowledge how ingenious 'Hitler' played the world as well.
His goal was to serve France and he excelled at it.
He did not start the 30 year war, just played the great game to the benefit of France. He managed to maintain the balance of power by ensuring a weakened and divided Holy Roman Empire, putting France in a position to dominate Europe for the next century or so leading up to Napoleon.
Likening Richelieu or even Bismark to Hitler is a pretty naive assessment.
>>483077
>Holy
>Roman
>Empire
Inb4 Voltaire
>>483077
How it worked? All gave their best and created the most beautiful empire in Europe.
>>483861
>hrebooism
there's more to europe than a few gothic and roman churches lad
On the other hand, I will say that the environment within the HRE was very conductive for the whole Luther, Gutenberg into humanism and enlightenment shenanigans
>>483077
The introduction to 30 Year War by Wedgewood tells it perfectly.
It really didn't work and was a massive cluster fuck.
>>483880
Of course. The cityscape, castles, monasteries and universities were equally impressive.
But of course, the pinnacle of European culture, a centralized beraucracy with a supreme leader, this is a miracle France and the UK performed first. So there is that.
>>483133
>Another Western European country.
>HRE
>Western European
>country
Why even post if you're this retarded?
>>483159
>implying the history of the HRE doesn't largely entail conflicts with Hungary and Poland
Those were two of the most relevant states to the HRE outside of its borders, and that's Central European history.
>>483613
>There are no cases of cruelty and utter insanity we can witness in France
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror
>>483607
this. Faggots quoting Voltaire for some reason believe centralized states are better.
>>484032
I'm sorry, my English skills are in decline. What I was actually trying to say is that contrary to the events in France or East-Rome, there are no cases of insane kings or monarchs in the HRE, thus illustrating the pros of decentralized government.
>>483915
Im so happy Switzerland kicked HRE's ass back in 1499 and left that shit heap for good in 1648.
>>483607
>The HRE was always the unmatched economical powerhouse of Europe until the 30-years-war.
le what
Emperor had much more control the first centuries of the empire, but then Frederick II fucked it all up and devolved a lot of powers giving basically every principality the right to mint money and so on. His dynasty's wild goose chase in Italy left Germany in the hands of princes.
> In 1232, he was forced by the German princes to promulgate the Statutum in favorem principum ("statute in favor of princes"). It was a charter of liberties for the leading German princes at the expense of the lesser nobility and commoners. The princes gained whole power of jurisdiction, and the power to strike their own coins. The emperor lost his right to establish new cities, castles and mints over their territories. The Statutum severely weakened central authority in Germany. From 1232 the vassals of the emperor had a veto over imperial legislative decisions. Every new law established by the emperor had to be approved by the princes.
>>483077
that picture is like porn to me
fucking maps
>>484067
Is the fact that a country, stretching from France to Bohemia and the Baltics across the Alps, is economically more powerful than any of its smaller rivals surprising 4 YOU?
>>484123
Except France had twice the population of the HRE
And the Emperor was almost always too weak to tax his subjects
>>484140
Not exactly.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histoire_démographique_de_la_France
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire#Demographics
>>484140
>Except France had twice the population of the HRE
Only in the Medieval period, anon. Early Modern France was neck and neck with the Reich in terms of population.
>>484160
Christ, the Plague, Hundred Years' War, Little Ice Age, etc really did a number on France.
>>483077
>Do Germans have to learn about this mess in school?
Not even German and we do learn about it. It's mostly lives of the peasants and stuff (things that matter to our national history), but yeah.
I do wish there'd be more about how it work as a polity. Because I have only the most basic understanding of it, and I studied pol. sci.
>>484175
It also illustrates perfectly how centralism means stagnation in France. I mean, the population remained almost the same for a couple of centuries, although they were continuesly gaining new territories (hard to believe though).
And in the HRE? The population fucking explodes! Despite continuesly LOSING territories.
If the Holy Roman Empire would have included France, but remained a mainly federal, Europe's world domination probably would have begun much earlier.
>Saint Maurice became a patron saint of the Holy Roman Emperors. In 926, Henry I (919–936), even ceded the present Swiss canton of Aargau to the abbey, in return for Maurice's lance, sword and spurs. The sword and spurs of Saint Maurice were part of the regalia used at coronations of the Austro-Hungarian Emperors until 1916, and among the most important insignia of the imperial throne. In addition, some of the emperors were anointed before the Altar of Saint Maurice at St. Peter's Basilica.[2] In 929 Henry I the Fowler held a royal court gathering (Reichsversammlung) at Magdeburg. At the same time the Mauritius Kloster in honor of Maurice was founded. In 961, Otto I was building and enriching the cathedral at Magdeburg, which he intended for his own tomb.
Thoughts?
>>483607
It didn't work in terms of being an effective governing body, which is what's being discussed
>>484210
Interesting to see a legitimate African figure featuring prominently in Medieval Europe.
>>484223
This, I mean an African saint as the patron of a whole empire in central Europe, that's really cool to think about.
>>484216
It was formed as a feudal State from the demise of the Carolingian empire. France was not a united kingdom until the end of the 100 years war(1453), that would be the time when the HRE became ineffective compared to other kingdoms.
>>483173
He was right at the time, but in its long history the HRE was all of those things at one point. People use this quote as if it was always true.
>>484254
>that would be the time when the HRE became ineffective compared to other kingdoms.
Yep, this is true.
Frederick III was notably castrated from a firm political grasp.
In that same century, Sigismund actually managed to perform the last, albeit unsuccessful, crusade against the Turks.
The thing about the HRE that Enlightenment intellectuals hated is that it was a descentralized empire built upon tradition and custom. People like Voltaire believe that society is a mechanism that worked exactly like physics, so there is a "scientific" approach to the functioning of a society, for someone like him, and most intellectuals ever since, the HRE was abhorrent.
But of course, we know what a "scientifically-inspired" governance and society looks like. It looks like Jacobin France or Bolshevik Russia. It's shit that completely destroy the independence of individuals and civil society and empowers the State (and the castes that guide it, the intelligentsia and bureaucracy) above everyone else.
So, for the same reason Voltaire and modern intellectuals hate or fail to comprehend the HRE, I love it. For example, when >>483097
Says the landed elites had all the power, he conveniently forgets the Free Imperial Cities such as Hamburg and Bremen, models in Republicanism and Liberalism inside a supposedly reactionary Empire (yes, better models in Republicanism than Revolutionary France and the United States).
When this guy >>483119
Says that everyone having their own little rights and privileges and make it seens like that's somehow bad, it shows the worldview of the modern intellectual who claims to speak for freedom and liberty, but only as long as that can be used as excuses to expand the power of the State. Liberties built upon traditional custom that bar attempts at expanding the power of the State, such as the Imperial Knights (literally the sovereign citizens of American libertarianism).
If only the European Union based itself on the HRE instead of France. Then it could be a patchwork of different political systems and localized solutions to local problems, instead of a mammoth bureaucracy that everyone hates. Considering that Robert Schuman, Konrad Adenauer and Alcide de Gasperi were born in parts of the former HRE, I'd say that's what they wanted.
>>484105
There are people who claim to love diversity and multiculturalism, but hate the most diverse and multicultural state that ever existed in Europe.
>>483077
>Do Germans have to learn about this mess in school?
Has it anything to do with Hitler? Then no, of course not.
>>483105
>Two Electorates- Cologne and Mainz weren't secular
You forgot Trier, the largest one.
There were originally three ecclesiastic electors/archbishoprics (trier, cologne and mainz) and four secular ones (brandenburg, saxony, palatinate, bohemia)
Bohemia became/was a kingdom and later incorporated into austria and the palatinate became irrelevant. Brandenburg became a kingdom in prussia.
Because bavaria were evolving into the third most powerfull state after austria and prussia, they became electors as well. Hanover was given the title when they became kings of england, to make their homeland appear more important.
fun fact: napoleon raised the landgraviate of Hesse Kassel (one of two states called Hesse) to elector status shortly before disbanding the HRE and these guys were so proud that they called themselfs Kurhessen (Electoral Hesse) all the time afterwards until they were fused after WW2 into the modern Federal State of Hesse.
People have a pretty wrong view of the Holy Roman Empire. At some times, it was more centralized than the Kingdom of France.
