How often do you think American or British officers had to shoot their men for not following orders during battle? I remember reading Lt Ronald Speirs doing that to one of his sergeants. Obviously it won't you weren't fucking around and your men would listen to you more. Did it happen often? Or was it a handful of isolated incidents. Today's culture has changed, but back then I could easily see an officer putting .45 in a man for not following orders back to even the Vietnam era.
>>482686
Rather rarely, IIRC only late war germans and the soviets had to resort to such drastic measures to keep troops in line.
I know the Russians did it all the time during WW1 and WW2. Wouldn't surprise me if the trauma led to an increase in alcoholism. But those guys didn't fuck around. They had to keep up the macho image as well respect as an officer. Add alcohol and a desperate situation, and you got officers blasting their men.
>>482694
What would junior ranking officer typically do if one of his men weren't listening to him? I imagine this got even more complicated if this during a fire fight.
>>482701
>Why do officers carry pistols?
Asked and answered.
>>482698
>did it all the time
>le commissar image
Somebody's watched Enemy at the Gates again
No no no, even in the most desperate part of the Great Patriotic War did people get shot on the battlefield. Executions for cowardice or desertion happened but discouraged in the Soviet army as in most others. Shits bad for morale. If Butcher Haig could commute the sentences of people who deserted two or three times then Zhukov And Stalin were going to do the same.
Indeed the idea that the Soviet military despised it's own enlisted men comes from a stereotyped late cold war view of the army which was when the hazing culture of conscripts, the dedovschina, was at its absolute worst and the separation of officers and men at an all time high. This however started spiralling out of control in the late 1960s.
Whilst being in the Soviet army was definitely hard on th individual soldier in the Stalin and Kruschev eras, because yes they were treated poorly, allowed to he beaten, and ate rations of at best mediocre quality, this did not mean life was the living hell it became later on for junior conscripts.
Officers and men were.much closer up until tje majority of the WWII generation retired from the middle (not senior) ranks of the army in the 60s
Not as close as some armies are today, certainly not as close as Wehrmacht officers and men were, but in one where they respected each other and treated each other with common decency. Which meant shooting Nikolai for whatever was almost always off the table even if Fritz was being nasty. Or the Americans on the other side of the border were drunk and hollering bullshit.
>>482720
>did NOT occur
Fugg I'm a retard
Once during WWII.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Slovik
Otherwise it was fairly unheard of.
There's a term in the US military called "fragging". US troops are FAR more likely to kill a stupid officer than to be killed by an officer. However American units are still highly disciplined and this wasn't very common either. It's mostly a thing in the Vietnam war era and there's no sign of how often that happened - it was probably pretty rare.
Today? We don't really kill our own. We drum out the losers and blue falcons and focus on killing the enemy instead.
>>482720
It's simple the russian macho mindset + the dominant/submissive dichotomy between ranks of soldiers and you got slav officers blasting guys over all sorts of stuff.
>>482736
This, it's a quality post as this is how Western militaries have operated since the fragging debacle
Here.in Canada it's near impossible to drum people out so we reassign them from shit that could be close to responsibility
Like the air navigator chick I knew who tried to nuke a whale.....
>>482752
Did you even read my post? It lays out why your argument is both false and retarded and not in line with historical fact
Go back to watching shitty Hollywood films
>>482720
With the amount of pride slavs have and vodka the amount of shootings must have been insane during WW2. What better way for a struggling young officer to get the fear of his men than shooting one in the face?
>>482686
Most American officers that died during the Vietnam war were killed by the soldiers under them. More or less justified, though should have been doing that on base and ending the war at its sources, not in the jungle.
>>482736
I think most of these incidents happened off the books. With all the people fighting in the US military at that time, that seems like bullshit only 1 was executed for cowardice. We didn't have the same value for human life back in the 1940s.
This sort of thing was much more common in the Royal navy. Being flogged to death was pretty typical for all sorts of breaches.
Further proof that the English were and remain a barbaric race.
>>482765
Ebin truly ebin :^)
They also wear ushankas all year round and their WWII uniforms were all ADIDAS
>>482780
Like getting beat to death with a wooden cane on a British cruiser? That's one hell of an outdated conditions. Being a burger I tend to forget how intense the upper class/ lower class divide was and is.I bet there was tons of anger directed at those who got comfy positions due to nepotism. Likewise the upper class Brit officer abusing his men for simply being "working class scum". My friend from Manchester HATES people from London.
>>482783
You can't deny the aggressive "alpha" behavior that's encouraged in Russian society. This would be greatly concentrated in the military. A bunch of young drunks trying to maintain their social status could lead to people getting shot for retarded reasons.
>>482809
>modern is the same as at the time
>they was all drunk
>so ppl got shot lmao
Shit b8/10
>>482783
To be frank, there were a disturbing amount of alcoholics in the soviet command structure. It resulted in more indirect than direct casualties though.
>>482815
Russian culture since the early parts of the 19th century and before have embraced hyper masculinity. The idea of being seen as a "man" is a large part of the Russian male image. The Second World War was depressing and plenty of vodka was drunk (it was even in the rations). The stress of the war and human nature led to arguments and disagreements. Add guns and poor military professionalism and you got a recipe for disaster. Insubordination was heavily frowned upon and dealt with in the most direct matter. Capital punishment was a great way to prevent others from thinking of people off the same shit. Soviets loved making an example of someone.
>>482819
Thousands dead due to drunk artillery officers blowing their own men up.
>>482835
Worked both ways though. I could see a group of pissed off enlisted russians soldiers fragging the fuck out of their CO.
>>482774
Nah, Americans were Enthusiastic Amateurs in WWII, remember. We were still pretty damn full of high ideals and even the officers believed them. There's a reason we forgave most desertion offenders. The ones we actually shot (about 100 or so) were rapists and people that killed civilians.
While life was cheap in a way it wasn't cheap in THAT way. Americans were actually high-minded idealists in that war, it's why everyone wanted to surrender to us and the English kept the deal with the Soviets dividing up Europe from us. We flipped our shit when we found out.
America wasn't the cold hearted cynical superpower it is now. It was a remote idealistic nation caught up in its own affairs.
>>482839
Indirect fire is still indirect casualties my friend.
>>482835
[proofs heavily needed]
Evidence would state the contrary, after all dissent and weakness is the duty of the NKVD not just some guy. And on top of that the military was close knit rather than antagonistic at the time given the whole war for survival.
But hey I guess they just lived in an ebin slavthread
>>482839
>>482861
Again, proofs needed and I would also add this doesn't necessarily prove a huge amount. During world war 1 the French killed 50K of their own men by refusing to incorporate meteorological data into their gun firing data calculations.
As for drinking on duty the 1936 RKKA drill manual expressly forbade it. I'm sure it happened but the idea the ebin russkies is all drunk is retarded and again [proofs needed]
>le ebin Soviet Russia dindu nuffin
Stalin literally had an entire army behind his army to shoot them if the took "one step back".
>>482991
>literally
I see you use literally in the sense "figuratively".
You are a cunt.
>>482991
>>482701
Punch him in the back of the head.
Time honored tradition of every leader of men for all of history.
>>483002
Shut up fifel.
>>483002
...but that's the perfect use of the word.
Stalin did have an army. His army wasn't a metaphor or exaggeration.
You're bitching backwards and you fucking baited me. Pretty sneaky sis.
>>483419
Blocking units weren't greater than battalion in strength ffs.
>>482753
>Like the air navigator chick I knew who tried to nuke a whale.....
Okay, I"ll bite. Both you and I know you can't post that shit without at least a greentext.
>>482686
T. E. Lawrence had to execute a man under his command because he murdered a fellow soldier
>>482720
>Butcher Haig
why do you have to discredit your otherwise okay post with such nonsense
>>482794
Tge Royal Navy was dominated by the middle class, the army by the upper.
Beating soldiers purely for being lower class is retarded. There where mutinied for less.
Though London is posher than most places and is hated by the rest of the uk for many reasons there are upper class people in Manchester.
>>482686
Never. In British law and presumably American too, summary execution by an officer is treated as murder. Everyone who was shot for desertion was executed following a trial, not on the spot.
>>483842
Time for you to watch some WWI trench videos
>>483858
There's video footage of officers and military police carrying out summary executions in WW1?
>>483898
MPs? Lieutenants.
>>483948
Post the footage then
>>483992
http://www.bl.uk/world-war-one/articles/military-discipline
Though I have seen footage of Australian officers summarily executing non-compliant troops in the face of the enemy it isn't coming up after 5 minutes of searching so go fuck your anus.
>>484207
pls post the footage
>>482780
>le evil anglos ennemies of da white race
Fuck off back to /pol/, "aryan" memespouter.
>>483002
Perfectly fine usage of the word though
>>482686
It must've been pretty prevalent, if the rumor I read about why they salute the way they do is true.
>>484282
>an entire army
>battalions
You're a lance corporal aren't you?
