is this a controversial subject among academics?
>>479736
of course not, it was a fucking famine. is ethiopia a fucking genocide by us, because we don't give them enough food for all of them to survive?
also picrelated (starved man in Harkiv, Ukraine - 1932), they all look wellfed to me, the guy probably died of alcohol poisoning.
>>479749
is it really that simple?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor_genocide_question
That's controversial because since most academics are leftists who would love to destroy their own independent landowner class (just see how much hate American intellectuals can spew against Southerh Whites) they absolute love the concept of dekulakization, so the end result of this policy being the death of millions of people is very uncomfortable for them to defend. They either ignore it hoping it will go away or they try to invent bullshit reasons to excuse Stalin (that was popular in the 1980s, see the works of Sheila Fitzpatrick, but then the Soviet Union fell, the archives were opened and they were left discredited).
So no, the holodomor is not considered a genocide by the intelligentsia, some countries consider based on political reasons but that's not enough. In 100 years no one will remember the Holodomor because only things that make the left stand in good light are worth remembering by intellectuals and since they will want to kill the kulaks again before the end of the century (see Salon's obsession with anti-racism and anti-white bigotry) they will have to pretend the last time they tried it never happened and it never went wrong.
>>479736
famines happend throught history, not every government was able to do something about it. peasants ofcourse blame those who organise rations, not the nature of the problem. certainly not a genocide.
>>479736
not a genocide but a famine, picrelated is a genocide, and people that starve because of having nothing to eat do not look like wellfed rednecks with their bellies falling over their beltbuckles.
>>479779
Do you think the name is inappropriate then?
yes it was a genocide, anyone who says otherwise is just trying to be controversial. it wasn't just a famine, it was a forced famine. food supplies were cut off by the USSR and people were stopped from going in or out to get/give food
>bread basket of Europe
>occupied by USSR
>ukranians dont like it
>suddenly famine
>accidents happen :^)
ruskies and ruskie sympathizers never change
>>479845
>famine hits russian part of Ukraine
>only russians die
>ukrainans in the west live like wellfed fagots
>2015 Majdannaziboos "RUSKIES KILLED OUR PEOPLE"
>>479823
Not trying to be controversial but Stalin was just extorting the peasants for the maximum amount of money as quickly as possible for the purposes of industrialisation, the food was exported for machinery imports. The kulaks were first because they were an easy target due to peasant jealousy, then the rest.
The peasants just happened to be Ukranian but its not like it was a systematic attempt to kill all Ukranians, they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
>>479854
>central Ukraine
>the russian part
>>479845
>ukranians dont like it
They actually liked it, before WW2 USSR actively promoted national minorities to counter Russian majority. Stalin was a Georgian and half of the party were Jews and Poles. Only during WW2 USSR embraced Russian nationalism as state policy.
>>479857
PROOFS
>>479863
"However, it has also been proposed that the Soviet leadership used the man-made famine to attack Ukrainian nationalism, and thus the man-made famine may fall under the legal definition of genocide.[26][27][28][29][30] For example, special and particularly lethal policies were adopted in and largely limited to Soviet Ukraine at the end of 1932 and 1933. According to Snyder: "[E]ach of them may seem like an anodyne administrative measure, and each of them was certainly presented as such at the time, and yet each had to kill."[56][57] A 2011 documentary, Genocide Revealed, presents evidence for the view that Stalin and the Communist regime deliberately targeted Ukrainians in the mass starvation of 1932–1933.[58]"
I dont know man, thats a lot of quotations
>>479884
you mean citations? theres only 1 (one) quote in your post
>>479854
Maybe that's because Western Ukraine was under Polish rule during the 1930s.
>>479845
>Stalin was a russian nationalist
bitch are you for real?
>>479892
He used russian nationalism because soviet soldiers wouldn't fight for the glory of the USSR
>>479896
>when did i mention stalin?
Stalin responsible for holodomor, mostly russians die, bashing ruskies.
>>479896
oh sorry m8 my bad then, carry on
>>479905
thats not the post you quoted
>>479905
>mostly russian die
That's like factually incorrect
>>479897
This is true. Source: Every book by Barberowski.
>>479915
>>479905
Ethnicities are mad made especially during that time in that part of the world among a mostly analphabetical population. And especially for Stalin who used ethnicity a tool to rule.
I am not going to say say there is/was no Ukrainian people but one has to look very carefully instead of using shitty maps like >>479854
The so called "Holodomor" was the result of food hoarding by counter-revolutionaries and traitors. The main problem was that Uncle Joe was too soft on the kulaks.
>>479772
>muh leftist conspiracy
>the south dindu nuffin
>it was a genocide even though le secret archives disprove this thesis!
Well meme'd
>>479968
>>479977
>>479968
Fugg
I love how this board largely rejects this nonsense. There also seem to be some fellow M-Ls here which is cool.
Even people with liberal views on this board generally have a much higher intellectual level. Is nice
Praise Stalin
![Ethnic-Ukrainians[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/y95whs0.jpg "Ethnic-Ukrainians[1].jpg")
>>479854
>>479971
is there proof that this was not intentional
>>482143
>is there proof that this was not intentional
Politbureau CC CPSU(b) when informed immediately ordered famine aid. This is from minutes which weren't public.
Popular conceptions of "intentional" place intentionality as a direct choice to cause.
By this measure the 1932-1933 famine in Soviet Ukraine was not intentional.
However, as a marxist historian this popular conception of intentionality is bullshit. The Party and State had enacted programmes which removed the social and economic control that Ukrainian peasants had over their own lives without ensuring that a system that would successfully ameliorate famines was in place.
By this same standard urban Ukrainians are responsible for eating the food that the peasants needed.
>>482143
You have to prove that it was intentional, we don't have to prove that it wasn't.
If the Soviet Union and Ukraine were people and this was a court trial, while you could probably book the Soviet Union with a negligence or manslaughter charge given the evidence, a murder charge requires you to prove that the Soviet Union did this intentionally. Innocent until proven guilty.
>>479736
>is the holodomor considered a genocide?
Only by White Nationalists trying to grasp straws.
>is this a controversial subject among academics?
No, like most communist atrocities against the general population they aren't conventional "massacres" like they're usually mislabelled and more the result of gross incompetence and/or callousness by the state.
Holodomor? More like holohoax!
>>482175
>Popular conceptions of "intentional" place intentionality as a direct choice to cause.
>The Party and State had enacted programmes which removed the social and economic control that Ukrainian peasants had over their own lives without ensuring that a system that would successfully ameliorate famines was in place.
Sounds intentional.
So much for central planning...
>>484201
In that case you can blame peasants for urban living standards in the 1920s.
Your construel of intention is perverse.
>>484222
You really don't think the Soviet state is responsible at all? Its land reforms were the reason there wasn't infrastructure in place to deal with a famine.
There was no famine, because most of the deaths were in the spring, when there would be plenty of food everywhere.
Anybody who believes this sort of drivel should look up all the famines that happened 1920-1940 and you'll see this is no different.
>>479823
Agreed. Using same logic the Allies are at fault for the jewish genocide of WWII after bombing German transit, cutting off supplies to work camps.
>>479854
"Majdan"
Putinate regressive cuck
>>484355
Intention and responsibility are different words in English.
>Its land reforms were the reason there wasn't infrastructure in place to deal with a famine.
And the peasants decision to revel in the loss of Tsarist taxes and Aristocratic extraction by lowering production levels is why land reforms were "necessary" if the urban working class weren't going to starve.
And the inability of the Bolshevik nomenklatura to run the light industry at 1913 or expanding levels was the reason that peasants reduced their productivity.
And the Bolshevik failure to run light industry at 1913 levels was caused by the urban proletariat's resistance to imposed labour standards in the NEP.
So really we can blame the workers for the 1932-1933 Soviet famine.
