Are gender roles moral if they help society as a whole function or does the right of the individual to have no expectations morally justify there being no societal norms for gender roles?
the latter
/thread
>>461420
Why does the right of the individual out weigh the greater good of society?
>>461420
/threading yourself
kill your're are self my man
>>461418
amoral, because society consists of way more minorities than majorities. There is no one group or person we can say is "society". Different groups have different opinions and regulations so we can't act like forcing one into a role is helping "society", its only helping your minority.
>>461418
Isn't it good isn't it nice so many parts in the same device.
>>461418
The former
Freedom leads to disunity and the degeneracy we see today
Strong gender and social rules leads to a healthy society
>>461418
>valuing the greater good for short term individualist pleasure
>>461492
Wow, you should just kill your self
>>461418
>does the right of the individual to have no expectations morally justify there being no societal norms for gender roles?
No such right exists
Not all women want to be homemakers, but I'm sure many do take pride / satisfaction in taking care of the home and children. There's still "traditional" nuclear families, but they're gradually getting replaced by two working parent households. Probably has something to do with more people going to college, pursuing careers and learning how horrible it is to be a stay at home mom.
>>461418
If.
The normalization of broken homes is the worst thing to happen to the west.
What are gender roles in modern times anyways? Do we still have them? And how are they supposedly oppressing anyone as the enemies of them claim?
>>461418
It depends if you differentiate between arbitrary expectations and expectations that we all agree on are necessary for a free and prosperous society.
It's pretty clear to me that here is a difference between forcing, or socially pressuring a woman into becoming a house-maker, and socially pressuring people into obeying the law within a geographical area.
The former seems arbitrary, because there is no reason why women shouldn't be able to do what they want with their life(i.e having a career apart from housekeeping), but there is a rational basis for socially pressuring people into not murdering or stealing other people's property.
>>463630
This.
>>461418
It's possible to deduce what adaptions natural selection would make to men and women. Division of labor is an advantage, it makes sense for pregnant females to stay at home, etc. Going against natural trends is, at least figuratively, a sin against god.
>>461480
Are gender roles really good for the society?
If you remove most of ignorants and generally stupid people from the equation this concept could be very different.
I think people shouldnt care about what other do with their own lives while it doesnt affect them directly.
>>463630
Do you think those rights dont actually exist because society and/or the government wont allow them to exist?
"rights" are a social construct
>>461418
Biology created men to manage the environment so that women would no longer have to, and allow them to concentrate on propagating the species through childbirth.
It's funny when females think that being some mid-level manager, or attorney, or model, or whatever, is superior to being a wife and a mother.
Actually, it's kind of sad.
>>461418
Gender roles exist regardless of how they're suppressed, covered up or otherwise de-emphasized because they're innate to gender.
Gender roles are less relevant today then they have ever been, but in the past they made a lot of sense. You don't send your human factories into dangerous situations and dangerous situations encompass most external affairs. It therefore makes sense to put women in control of internal affairs such as being in charge of homes and domestic policy and for men to control external affairs such as dealing with other nations. External affairs make for more flashy history so most recorded history is about men.
>>466679
Certain adaptations obviously favor men and women in different roles - men are clearly better suited for heavy physical labor, while women are better suited for childrearing.
The issue arises with the generalization of these roles into a male/female divide across every aspect of society. It doesn't follow that, because a typical man is a better bison hunter than a typical woman, he will also be a better lawyer or businessperson, and yet this is the assumption that much of our current conception of "gender roles" is founded on.
Of course, it also doesn't follow that men and women are equally good at everything that isn't hunting and breastfeeding - but imo the differences are not understood well enough to justify enforcing gender roles in most areas. With our current, highly incomplete understanding of evolutionary psychology, most attempts to enforce gender roles will be largely arbitrary.
It also doesn't appear as though weakening traditional gender roles corresponds to a decline in societal happiness, or social cohesion - the opposite in fact, as we see in the Scandinavian countries (immigration issues notwithstanding). That's not to say that the Scandinavian model can be copied 1:1 to America or other countries, merely that it does not seem as though arbitrarily enforced gender roles are necessary for a society to be successful.
>>467227
I should add that I'm talking about the modern world here - I'm not disputing the usefullness of more defined gender roles in earlier civilizations, although even there I suspect that such roles were often enforced beyond what was optimal for society.
>>467176
>gender
Doesn't exist.
A much better question is why are there gender roles?
It seems almost impossible they aren't at least partially caused by genetic differences.
>>467616
If it doesn't exist, do gender roles exist? Does sex (Male vs female) exist?
If they don't exist why did we create it?
>>467227
On a counterpoint, I think some mild imposition of gender roles in military situations is helpful. Women soldiers have done well when they're highly motivated and disciplined, and that usually comes from only extremely fanatical and bloodthirsty women wanting to sign up for combat (or from having them subject to crazy training, like the Mino). Now, the biological fact of women being weaker than men does help (assuming they're required to have the same physical standards as male recruits), but even just a cultural expectation of soldiers being men helps filter out women who aren't totally obsessed with soldiering
>>466702
I'm not the anon you responded to, but what you stated about what others lives don't affect us directly, they affect us indirectly which is still an issue. I believe gender roles are necessary, but lesser of them. Humanity needs to relearn that men and women are built for specific tasks.
>>466540
>no reason why women shouldn't be able to do what they want with their life(i.e having a career apart from housekeeping)
yeah, except the well-being of their kids, or enough offspring for society to continue in the first place.
>>461418
Gender roles are normal just because of biology, but let folks do what they want.
I'm tired of the SJW handwringing about not enough women in this or that.
A lot of them are busy raising the next generation of ALL OF US.
>>463045
...Where those unable to fit suffocate and die. Depends on your definition of a "healthy" society. Maybe in a strictly numeric, utilitarian sense, sure.
>>470448
>those unable to fit
so you cant be some sweet special snowflake, woe is me
people have to settle for things they dont want all the time, its just that the majority isnt making a huge deal about it.
>>461418
If they helped society without any drawbacks, then yes, they would be moral. But they effectively cripple productivity and limit personal freedom, with the reward being an increase in population sustainability and maintenance of tradition.
That creates a very complex situation where you have negative effects on both sides.
>>463045
>suddenly lose 40% of the workforce
>wages increase
>productivity decreases
>social security becomes unsustainable
>prices rise
>companies flee the country
>no way to pay enormous debt in the short term
>bankrupcy
Well. At least the degeneracy was stopped.
>>470659
Feminists are the corporation greatest ally and that's why they need it.
Thats what they say about. Illegals. Bu its all machieavillain and not moral. There is no real advantage to turn women into wave slaves so they can pay other women to raise their kids for them. Reducing their role in the workforce is the only way to return a single income households. Why are feminists railroading other women by shilling for corporations and crass materialism? Is this all a conspiracy to create more crazy cat lady spinster consumers?
>>470659
>wages increase
>social security becomes unsustainable
you really dont see how this is illogical, do you?
>>470683
The money that pays for social security and salaries is coming from the total product output of the industries. Which would drastically drop in such a scenario because of the reduced workforce becoming more valuable suddenly.
There is less extra money for more retired people. It is effectively like if population dropped by 40%, like in Japan.
Sure, social security would reestabilize after 30 years. But you won't be able to hold that sort of economy for 30 years.
>>470676
All morality has to be built on some kind of strong materialist base, if it doesn't want to end wiped out. You aren't living alone in the planet. If you lead the country to bankruptcy then it becomes a puppet for stronger economies, which would impose whatever they want on you. Probably including their own morality.
>>470704
>corporations and state will take care of you better than family
The subversion is working. Women surpress wages and squander their eggs. You still haven't offered a valid reason to continue these policies you sellout.
>>470733
They don't take better care of your children, but there is no other alternative in a competitive world.
The reason to continue these policies is simply that you will get a financial meltdown if you don't, which will then cause the re-institution of the policies after a while, unless you convince the whole world to follow you. And that won't happen because nobody will miss out the chance to take advantage of your population
>>470747
that's exactly what they say about illegals and the only people vulnerable are those in on the racket, and well fuck them. If you want sub-replacement birthrates and cheap labor go ahead. Why should women LARP as men as if it's something to be aspired to? It's no longer a "choice" anymore because pressures mandated dumping them into the workforce.You're making women suffer with the policies and then scapegoating it on the patriarchy, own this.
Just because a thing is a social construct doesn't mean it is bad.
>>461418
Society exists to serve the individual, not the other way around. Gender roles are immoral impositions on the free will of individuals within a society.
>>470281
Yes, but it doesn't make sense to force women do do those things.
Nobody is forcing you, as a man, to make as much money as possible in order to feed a family of 20 kids, so there should not be any of these arbitrary expectations on women either.
>>461418
Gender roles are natural and moral but forcing everyone to stay within them isn't. There will always be norms associated with gender because men and women are different on average but deviancy should be tolerated.
>>470761
>implying low brithrates are a bad thing
Obviously sub-replacement rate is bad (unless your country is suffering from extreme overpopulation) , but that can be solved with things like tax breaks for having children and the like. Having 4 kids per household is not a good thing.
>>472490
The entire western world has been trying to fix the below fertility crisis and it has failed utterly and all have resorted to importing foreigners to have children for them.
>>472523
What is Israel doing to make their birthrate so high, then? There must be something there the west can copy.
>>472533
It's filled with religious loons isn't it? Israel is definitely an outlier compared to other developed countries due to it's unique circumstances.
>>472533
>>472545
>>461418
Gender roles are natural though. Take government and feminism out of the equation and everything recoils back to normal. Man have food and shelter and want sex (offspring). Qt 3, 14 got sex and cute feet (means of producing offspring) and want food and shelter.
Womyn have got insatiable desires as shown by modern and past feminism therefore we must find a stage in the role of womyn which we deem most beneficial for society and halt it still. I believe that role is of the mother. Prove me wrong.
>pro tip: You can't except with le stale le reddit meme
>>472571
>/pol/
>>472545
It is propped up by ultra orthodox just as non-whites birth overstate western fertility. Also having nationalist and natalist propaganda helps
>>470281
Society did just well for itself before the cult of domesticity came to prominence in the 19th century.
>>473746
>arbeit macht frei
>>473724
What will happen when the ultra orthodox overtake the ordinary Jews?
>>473771
They win the game of Jews and just wait for mosciach to show up. You need to get as zealous as islamists to resist them, look at Sikhism.
