>>458979
No. Takes a strong negative tone.
>>458979
Yes. Takes a strong negative tone.
>>458979
Possibly. Takes a strong negative tone.
>>458979
I don't know. I've heard he takes a strong negative tone.
>>458979
Positively. Takes a strong negative tone.
>>458986
its the only book I have at my house. which book should i buy then?
>>459017
One with a more positive tone.
>>458979
Could you repeat the question in a nicer tone?
>>459017
Just get a subscription to Past & Present. It's tone is more negative.
>>458979
A meme is born
>>458979
Anyway, on a less retarded note, I think it seems legit and you should go ahead and read it.
>>458979
Zinn is a text book. It is meant as a progressive, labourite, social democratic or communist text book to be read along side bourgeois text books.
After Zinn I recommend Hammond & Hammond Labourers trilogy (free online), and Braverman Labor and Monopoly Capital
>>458979
Paul Johnson's History of the American People makes a good book to read alongside this one. Zinn's leans left, Johnson's leans right. Both are pretty narrative / great-man-ish in some ways.
I wonder sometimes whether hearing about a story set in a time and place is really the best way to understand that time and place. Or whether you'll really understand the story without some prior understanding of what normal life was like for the people you're studying.
>>458979
Learn history of the world first.
>>459270
Good idea, I should warn you though that the history of the world has a strong negative tone.
So really, what tone does it take? Honestly. No memes.
Sorry for hijacking this thread, by why is Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire looked down on in contemporary times? What would you recommend on late anitquity Rome?
>>459262
>read a book on the same subject, twice!
bad
>>459262
I agree with you that actual social history is far more valuable than synthetic narratives from secondary sources, but Zinn, and as you recommend Johnson, are useful ways to teach people how to read history.
>>459418
Gibbon worked before Ranke. Methodology has moved on. It is like Gibbon was working on chemistry using a phlogiston theory. Can't advise on antiquity though.
>>459388
Zinn likes the American project as the liberalisation of state and capital after enlightenment, but likes to point to the costs. Zinn's tone is one of the history of ordinary people as they politically mobilised, and Zinn's "popular" is inherently left-wing because Zinn paints workers, black Americans, sharecroppers, etc. as victims. The victim narrative is deeply problematic: it goes towards denying the vast increases in material production created by capitalism, and removes agency from the proletariat.
>>459388
Leans more left than right. Not that it matters. If you're like me it takes months to finish a book because I have to fucking research any information that the book doesn't cover and I want to know.
That's not autism right guys? I mean, I just want to learn more....you guys?
>>459453
>Zinn likes the American project as the liberalisation of state and capital after enlightenment, but likes to point to the costs. Zinn's tone is one of the history of ordinary people as they politically mobilised, and Zinn's "popular" is inherently left-wing because Zinn paints workers, black Americans, sharecroppers, etc. as victims. The victim narrative is deeply problematic: it goes towards denying the vast increases in material production created by capitalism, and removes agency from the proletariat.
I honestly don't understand this.
Those people were victims, despite the increase in material production. It's capitalists who say that victims like these are a necessary part of their system, or sometimes that they weren't victims at all because they got more stuff out of the raw deal than their parents did (what does this say about the last forty years of wages in the west?).
>>459449
You're right. Two books is probably three shy of a good intro to a topic
>>459449
>>read a book on the same subject, twice!
>bad
This is EXACTLY what the discipline of history is about, reading sources on similar topics and subjects over and over to produce an independent understanding.
If you only every read one source you're a cunt, you're just a cunt.
>>458979
As a history book, no.
It's a polemic railing against the way US history was told up to that point i.e. it's a way to tell people that capitalism and all other things leftists hate are evil while socialists are practically saints. It's supposed to be anti-Great Man as well but instead it just trades focus on typical American historical figures in place of people like Big Bill Haywood and other socialist heroes.
>>459475
>Those people were victims, despite the increase in material production.
They also fought back on their own terms (Lukacs / Gramsci: Class-in-itself / Class-for-itself). Viewing corporate subjects as at least partly autonomous from "victimisation" recognises their fights for their own society or politics.
>>459475
>sometimes that they weren't victims at all because they got more stuff out of the raw deal than their parents did (what does this say about the last forty years of wages in the west?).
It is useful to contrast "volume of stuff" versus "return of share of the social wealth" here. I have more cheap clothing than my grandfather. I work more hours at a faster rate. I earn far less per head of the social wealth than my grandfather. Whether this is good or bad is a >>>/pol/itical issue.
Victim narratives encourage victimisation. While victimisation and continued victimisation might occur, people also stand up.
>>459497
>They also fought back on their own terms (Lukacs / Gramsci: Class-in-itself / Class-for-itself). Viewing corporate subjects as at least partly autonomous from "victimisation" recognises their fights for their own society or politics.
So they were victims who fought back.
>It is useful to contrast "volume of stuff" versus "return of share of the social wealth" here. I have more cheap clothing than my grandfather. I work more hours at a faster rate. I earn far less per head of the social wealth than my grandfather. Whether this is good or bad is a >>>/pol/itical issue.
Then you earn less than your grandfather, despite certain material things being cheaper now than then.
>Victim narratives encourage victimisation. While victimisation and continued victimisation might occur, people also stand up.
This is the part I don't understand. It's denying that there are victims or there were victims that encourages victimization, it can only go on so long as nobody recognizes it, or it's politically incorrect to bring it up.
>>459508
>Then you earn less than your grandfather, despite certain material things being cheaper now than then.
I agree with this position, but the majority of the discipline of economics and much of the discipline of political economy disagree.
>it can only go on so long as nobody recognizes it, or it's politically incorrect to bring it up.
I see the transformation from victim to subject as being more about continuous actions rather than ideas. Everyone today has at least heard of communism, "It'd be a nice idea if people weren't greedy." Being exposed to ideas doesn't make people suddenly refuse to labour. Hard core union organising does (see: US Coal and Rail strikes 1946).
>>459539
>It'd be a nice idea if people weren't greedy.
That's what I say about capitalism.
>>459017
Watch Yale Open Course videos on youtube. Thats what i did and now i can communicate with the spirit of Thomas Payne
>>459482
ey buddeh if u want an overview of the world u betta read five books on ever subject and then one new every year as t. revisionism comes out
what the cloistered academic mentally footbound grad student thinks
>>459577
Even for undergraduates mate, even for undergraduates. Read a bunch of books and some journal articles plus primary sources if you want to have an opinion worth sharing.
>>459577
>wah reading is hard
>>458979
If you're a hardcore leftist who seeks to reinforce his worldview - yes, it's a wonderful place to start.
>>459683
Its a pretty shitty book for that. Zinn's ideology is pretty liberal, rather than revolutionary.
If you really want to work on your ideology do Engels 1844 and Engels Peasants War in Germany.
>>459715
>work on your ideology
>>459740
Your world view is my ideology.
>>459577
this is what plebism looks like
