>Satan replied, “Would Job worship you if he got nothing out of it? You have always protected him and his family and everything he owns. You bless everything he does, and you have given him enough cattle to fill the whole country. But now suppose you take away everything he has—he will curse you to your face!”
Is this the basis of Prosperity Gospel? Why does God give some people somethings but not to others?
>>455411
Maybe god isn't all powerful?
>>455485
OP pretty obviously begged the question that we're dealing with (I assume) a protestant theological position, which means we're not talking about the world as it is, but rather, the world from within the conception of protestant theology.
Do you get how we're playing this game now?
>>455485
Then hes no god.
>>455498
>based on my personal definition of God
>>455516
pretty sure the theological definition of god is 'an all powerful being'
>>455411
We are separated from God by the world. The world is riddled with temptation and hedonistic desires, those which are often unfulfilling and harmful. It is through separating ourselves from the world, and thus separating ourselves from these temptations and desires, that we begin the path to salvation.
Now back to my main point: we have freewill in this world of original sin, and thus God interfering in this world directly would go against the concept of free will.
You know how at the end of the Book the Demiurge clearly states how Job has no right to be a self-entitled cunt simply reasoning that he's an all-powerful being that does not give a shit?
He pretty much stated how he's an insecure jerk and suffering does not mean anything.
>>455516
>>Hume
>"Is he [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?"
>>455411
Wow, the fedora is strong with this one. They would have more if they gave up their voodoo and accepted Christ as their savior.
>>455411
notice that job accepts what happens to him stoicaly, he bows down to absurdity taking the position of someone who is caught in the middle of a cosmic event he canot even begin to comperhend
job literay refuses all logical explanations, all atempts to justify god, all forms of rationalisation, seeing them as childish blasphemy
in job god IS absurdity on a cosmic scale, all of creation, man integrated, is mind bogling, beyond human sense or logic, where notions of good or evil melt like sowballs in hell
the book of job is a strange thing to read, read it carefully
>>455570
So if god is nature manifested, does that mean Camus was right? Or maybe it's the other way about.
>>455570
it's weird how his friends urge him to curse god so that he might die, as though suicide by other means is impossible
>>455622
well in job god is literaly the fundamental inhuman dimension of reality, total, sublime and incomperhensible
to me the problem is that, reality being within and without, humans are by extension fundamentaly inhuman
think about it, its not just that the mountains and the stars are incomperhensible and other, we are even more so, we are tissue, organism, drive, system, protocol, information, process, we are phenomena, we occur
i mean... i take these things as basic truth of life
ID-ots and newatehists are basicaly just silly blasphemers and circlejerkers, reality is far, far worse then they can imagine...
>>455570
Yup, the story is nonsense. Just like the rest of the bible
>>455794
its one of the most concise and accurate descriptions of the problem of human life in religious literature
>>455794
> I have declared that which I did not understand
>>455516
>personal definition
Read the bible you nigger. It says that he is all powerful, omniscient, etc..
>>455411
>>455498
>>455537
>Epicurean paradox
I don't subscribe to the biblical idea of an infinite deity, but that said...
The being can exist and be amoral, or an extreme contrast between good and evil happening in one consciousness. I prefer the former, because morality as a concept is only one that we appear to need.
Plus, if you exist in a finite reality, which is supposed to be a division or abstraction of what the infinite is, then you can't exist within it without the following:
1) Choice to incarnate in that reality (all risks and downsides are acceptable or permissible).
2) Self-reliance, AKA not having an entity be at your becking call for all your problems (why even be here then? Just stay in the infinite).
3) Knowing that just because you use any given system here, doesn't mean it applies the same way, or even at all, at the level of the being giving the message or idea.
>>455526
Was Hephaestus not a real God because he didn't create the world or couldn't create the world?
I always thought that the overarching point of Job is that humans can't presume to know God. Or rather, God has revealed a lot of things about himself, but there's still so much about him that we don't understand, and if we try to imagine him as a human, with a totally human perspective on things, we'll fail, because God is beyond us.
Job is the argument against anyone who says that God is just humans projecting themselves onto the natural order. In Job, God is something totally different than humanity, and we can't do anything but accept it, and take solace that he loves us--or at least, that he SAYS he loves us.
>>456122
>City of god
The book which brings us the general notion that raping priestesses and trashing pagan temples is ok because "if your gods were real they would have stopped it"
I'm not sure anyone has ever tipped their maitre harder faster or lower than Augustine
>>455799
As a muslim, I personally refer to the book of Job when talking about the problem of God vs Man all the time.
>>456165
Good point, in fact, this is relevant:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism
The Abrahamic faiths built themselves off the idea that God isn't necessarily human in appearance or behavior, and its a plausible basis for why many of them opposed idolatry as well.
In essence, they are responding to the deity of their upbringing and refuting those ideas, which are more recent additions of Protestantism and the renaissance period.
IMO, if there is a cause behind the creation of reality as we know it, and it allows us to dick around on its playground that it made, it can make whatever rules it wants.
If we have souls, which stem from it or some infinite basin, then we knew everything that was going to happen in this reality before incarnating, and decided to still join anyway. Says it all.
>>456186
Is he really wrong from a totally open-minded perspective?
I mean, go full /x/ with me for a moment. Why SHOULDN'T you expect the gods to stop the destruction of their temples? Christians believe their God has worked miracles and wonders in the physical world, and continues to do so. Why can't the other gods do it, if they're worthy of worship?
>>456207
Because God gave us free will.
>>456165
"Where were you when I laid the foundations of earth? When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
>>456318
>Many older religions didn't define deities this way.
the fact that we debate and argue over thes kinds of things is in itself a very strong argument against there being any kind of deity
>>456188
>As a Muslim
What sect?
>>455533
> thus God interfering in this world directly would go against the concept of free will.
So what do you make of Sodom, Babel, and the whole humanity except Noe's family ?
>>456482
>created by an all-powerful all-knowing entity
>free will
I actually can't believe people will still support this ridiculous notion through theology.
>>456924
This desu, Bible is deterministic as fuck.
>>456924
>all decision making is done via chemical reactions in the brain
>free will
I'm curious what conditions need to be met for free will to be a valid concept in your eyes
>>457019
Newcomb paradox.
>>457019
Because if God is all knowing and all powerful, it's not just determinism. Atheism can have determinism in this sense, but (monotheistic) religion can't. God has made everything exactly the way it was, is and will be. Everything is exactly going to happen as God has willed it since time immemorial, because has has made everything in that specific way, knowing since before the dawn of time exactly how it would end. He could've created it an infinite amount of ways, but he chose this particular one, in which everything will happen according to His first movement. We can have the illusion of free will (let's face it, practically the real thing anyways), but nobody in their right mind can defend the notion that God was somehow ignorant of this, or that He didn't specifically will it this way.
>>456829
Undecided. I take guidance from the Sunnah, but Ali had a pretty good point. On the matter of spiritual authority i take only the divine revelation of Allah, which I believe he has made comprehensible to all who put effort in. No need for a caliph or pope.
>>457044
Yeah, God knew, and willed it so... But the decisions are still made autonomously through the wills he gave us. We still act the same, with the same means and in the same conditions as if God was playing dice.
His omniscience does not impede our will. If he is to blame for our limits, it's for not making us omniscient and all powerful too.
>>455495
>protestatism
Something something Pen Jillette
God gives everyone their due in the end. There's an extent to which you receive your parents' blessings and curses, i.e. if your parents have money, you will have money. Thing is though, that starving African kid will be treated with a lot more mercy on Judgement Day than rich kids who spent their money satisfying their greedy appetites. I'm certain that there are a lot of people in hell who regret being born in wealth and wished they had starved to death before adulthood.
I blame God that he created nignogs
God's answer to Job is already satisfactory. It's ridiculous for us to complain about God taking away our loved ones, our wealth, our health, our happiness, etc., when God gave us all these things in the first place. What we call evil is just a privation of the good; when you cry about evil you are really saying, "God, why is your goodness not as manifest in this place and in this time as it is in another place and another time?"
However, even though Job itself is satisfactory, there can be no more complaining after Jesus Christ. God came down in the flesh and lived like us, suffered more than any of us, was condemned when he was more innocent than any of us, and died even though he his infinite dignity naturally places him infinitely above death. To complain that God doesn't care about us now isn't just stupid, it's malicious.
>For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.
>>457356
In fact, there is a part of the Gospel that covers just this: Lazarus & the rich man. Lazarus spends his life starving outside of the house of a rich man and the rich man pays him no attention. When they are both dead the rich man is appalled to see that Lazarus sits together with Abraham (the just who are to be liberated and lead to paradise by Christ when he descends into hell after his crucifixion), whereas he is in the lower hell. The rich man begs Christ to warn his family and give them a sign to change their lives before they end up in the same hell, and Christ says, "if they won't listen to Moses, they won't accept a sign". This is an important saying. Many people foolishly say that, "if God gave me a sign / spoke to me, then I would believe". Wrong. If you won't accept the testimony of the Church then you won't accept a sign either. Fact is that people won't change their hearts even if they heard a loud voice coming from the sky or a dead person raised to life. People are obstinate in sin.
>>457389
Thank you God for making children starve to death!
>>457389
You basically said God gave your children and he can take it away and you shouldn't complain.
You don't believe this. If your children died you would be in tears.
If you have cancer you won't think 'well it's Gods body he can do what he wants with it'
You're arguement essentially turns God into an evil king. The king has a right to seize your land, to have sex with your wife, and to tax you to the hilt. After all you and all your stuff are his property!....oh and don't worry about God this king's power was approved by the Pope who interprete's your God's will =D
>>457356
Is it justice if a few decades of misery buys you an eternity of bliss, and conversely ?
>>457389
It's not a gift if the giver can and will take it back as he sees fit.
And what would you say about parents that give life to a child, offer it love and comfort, then one day lock it up in the basement and let it starve to death ?
What if they kill themselves after that, would it make it a perfectly good couple of persons ?
No one says that god doesn't care, just that he's a twisted and cruel father if he's as you guys describe him.
>>457403
That's bullshit though. A lot of people would change their ways if miracles were real.
Also, what about hell being a conscious choice to reject god ?
>>455411
God is beyond the material, beyond good and evil, and beyond petty human notions of what is correct or not as God can see all possible outcomes through all possible choices.
alternatively there is the idea of free will and humans basically left to their own devices, whereby suffering is a byproduct of innumerable seemingly innocent actions culminating in a great "storm" as a sort of butterfly effect of evil.
or there's always the Demiurge
>>455411
You're forgetting that at the end God gives Job everything back, and even more.
The Bible says
>God is Love
>good people die too early because they are so precious that God prefers bringing them to Him before they can be corrupted
>bad people prosper only so that they can fall even harder when the time comes
>other people harming you is not the work of God, otherwise he would be evil, however uncontrolled things that bring about death (disease, natural disasters, etc) are God's doing
>God and Satan aren't in some "good vs evil" fight - rather, the Satan is simply God's creation, who serves to test people to sin
>God's a really cool guy but too much is too much, hence why certain civilisations end up suffering a lot after being prosperous - because they became sinful and debauched and did not want to change their ways
>>456887
That was the Old Testament.
After the coming of the Messiah, we on our own in a way.
>>456887
Also, those are parables for the ultimate future of societies in which plunge themselves into hedonism.
>>457389
>God came down in the flesh and lived like us, suffered more than any of us
Yeah theres alot more people in the history of humanity that have suffered a thousand times more then jesus
but riddle me this why does god decied to give some people only good in their life and others only bad
a child wich parents dies before it reaches the age of 3, who has never known the feeling of a full belly, a kid wich has never been able to run or play because malnutrition has crippled its body and then the kid dies of starvation before it reaches the age of 5
mean while on the other side of the world there was this kid who was born to a wealthy family
who has known no struggle a single day of its life, gotten everything it pointed at, always hade a full belly, been happy a minimum of 95% of its life and reaches the rip old age of 90 where it dies in peace with its loving family by its side
why would a loving and caring god create such drastic and unjust difference of the happiness in its creations?
dont give me the free will bull shit and humans choose to create the world like that
god could just as easily have created humans with free will but with no predispostion for greed
also rember that god is omniscent so he knew that all those children would starve to death with out ever knowing happiness
also rember that these kids dont get to go to heaven since they most likely dont belive in god and i can assure you that accepting christ as their lord and saviour never even crossed their minds
>>458499
>why would a loving and caring god create such drastic and unjust difference of the happiness in its creations?
Are you saying it's not us who created these differences in the first place?
>also rember that these kids dont get to go to heaven since they most likely dont belive in god and i can assure you that accepting christ as their lord and saviour never even crossed their minds
Did you really not understand the Bible when you were reading it?
>>458506
>Did you really not understand the Bible when you were reading it?
pretty hard to understand it with all the fucking contradictions
>Are you saying it's not us who created these differences in the first place?
no im saying god created us so these diffrences would happen
hes omniscent rember he knew exactly what was going to happen when he made us
he knew every innocent killed and every man woman and child raped and tortured
he knew every single person that would die of starvation
he knew all of this yet he still created us in a way that made it possible for these things to happen
dont blame humans for doing bad shit blame god for making humans so that they want to do bad shit
we could still have free will yet not have a predisposition to doing evil deeds or being greedy and selfish
>>455485
God is everything the bible says, people just don't understand that our definition of good isn't the same as his.
>>458457
So God changed his mind about free will ?
>>458460
Parables ? What makes you say that ? And by ultimate fate, you mean destruction, or destruction at the hand of god ? Because if it's the first then it's a really shitty and misleading parable that describes a punishment by god when it means self-inflicted ruin. And if it's the second, then there will be an intervention.
And trying to scare us with made up tales about how he killed brutally masses of people who displeased him is still intervening against the exercise of our free will, even if the drowning of almost all humans did not happen.
>>458820
>muh god is good i promise!
>you guise just cant understand how good he is!
the abrahamic god is literally satan
first learn what the word satan means then think back of all those stories when god did nothing but fuck over humans by pretending the be teaching them lessons
then think over all the wonderfull things these lessons brought us, all the pointless wars, genocides all the oppression and greed from the church
THE MOTHERFUCKING INQUISITION
THE MURDER OF MORE THEN 95% OF NOT ONE BUT TWO FUCKING CONTINENTS
the abrahamic god has done more to divide us then it ever has to unify us
dont forget hes omniscent so he knew all this shit would happen yet he still "forced" us his religion and then he split it in three so we could never unify against his oppression
but then again its all just a bunch of balony created by humans who worship (you guessed it satan oh sorry i mean god) wrapped in some metaphors, good morals and values so it can and hide its hideous reality behind it
do you know how abraham actually worshipped his god? by sacrificing sheep to (why do you think he was so ready to sacrifice isaac becuase he was already sacrifcing shit to his god every full moon wich was his actual god)
you know who els are commonly held to sacrifice sheep? SATANISTS
"oh the lord is thy shepherd and you are his flock"
"i have been washed in the blood of the lamb"
thats why the lord wanted the blood of lambs on the doors off those he wouldent kill
if you are part of gods flock and he is the sheepherd then this is the metaphoric version of washing in human blood or sacrificing humans
listen im not saying there isent a universal power that is behind all existance
i am saying its porpouses and reasons for what it does is beyond us
and this is the exact reason for why the bible is mostly bullshit because we cant know god we can not understand god, and if we cant know god or understand him then how could the bible be true since it claims to do exactly this
