Why are people so obsessed with France and the UK?
Regarding contributions in art, science and culture in general, diversity and achievements, the
>HOLY
>ROMAN
>EMPIRE
was unrivaled
Romanesque, Gothic and Renaissance architecture
The birth of Dutch capitalism, Hansa and Imperial cities in Germany, city states in Italy
800 years of splendour, of victory and defeat, glory and cruelty
An empire second to none
>HOLY
>ROMAN
>EMPIRE
>>454921
>EUROPEAN
It's political structure and history is a lot more complex to understand. It makes sense that Britain and France would be more popular.
P.S I love it just as much as you anon
I think its quite interesting how kingdoms weren't continuous land masses like you'd think a normal kingdom would function, but some kings owned vast swathes of land all over the damn place, cut off by other kingdoms, etc.
Makes for a really interesting study, especially how the hell they were able to maintain these lands from far away, in wars, etc.
>>454921
I think Voltaire nicely summed it up well and briefly
>Romanesque, Gothic and Renaissance architecture
Those appeared in France, France, and Italy respectively.
>Dutch capitalism
Netherlands had nothing to do with HRE by then.
German Empire > HRE > Modern Germany > Nazishit
>>455042
Especially when you consider the original holdings of families like the Habsburgs and the Hohenzollerns would become obscure tiny castles compared to what would become their power bases.
Historians are intellectuals and intellectuals as a rule tend to prefer centralized, bureaucratic governments that give more jobs for intellectuals to act as rulers.
The Holy Roman Empire was a very descentralized, organic, traditional state. That's why Voltaire, for example, a thinker that actually thought that human society was similar to physics and could be molded by philosophers hated it.
And that's why I love it.
>Romanesque, Gothic and Renaissance architecture
>The birth of Dutch capitalism
[-]
>>455073
>Those appeared in France, France, and Italy respectively.
Not exclusively, in the slightest.
>>454921
>Why are people so obsessed with France and the UK?
The UK? Colonial empire and the anglosphere.
France? Because they've contributed a lot to history and been incredibly powerful and relevant for much of it.
In saying that, the obsession with France overstates its importance on this board.
>Regarding contributions in art, science and culture in general, diversity and achievements, the HRE was unrivaled
Now this is only going to ask for shitl-flinging.
This is as bad as the people obsessed with France asserting that it was unrivaled in those things, when it's simply not true.
To ignore the collective contribution and inter-relations of and between European countries is what is principally dumb.
Especially when the HRE was composed mostly of states powerful enough to fight for their sovereignty, who all made their own contributions to art, science, and culture.
>Romanesque, Gothic and Renaissance architecture
Did not originate in the HRE, although what's important to consider here is that Romanesque, Gothic, and Renaissance architecture is never the same in two regions.
That is to say that Gothic and Renaissance architecture in the HRE has marked differences from Gothic and Renaissance architecture in France and Italy.
The HRE certainly developed its own styles, like every region, but did not create those styles.
>The birth of Dutch capitalism
>city states in Italy
These things aren't really worth listing.
The Dutch absolutely resented being a part of the empire when they were.
Much more than they resented being in the Duchy of Burgundy, I might add.
The Italian city states were, well, Italian. The HRE may have entailed much of Northern, and Southern Italy at its various peaks, but ultimately like Switzerland, Czechslovakia, Austria, and the Netherlands; it retained its own regional identity.
>>455084
>German empire better than HRE
>a country that exists for the grand total of 50 years and then clubbed down and partitioned in a brutal war is superior to anything
>>454921
Now, if you want some real reasons to appreciate the HRE, you have plenty
>masonry
The spread of German names throughout non-German regions was not because of the presence of German ethnicity, although language certainly played a part in Switzerland and Austria. One primary factor in German names was nobility taking their names from their castles, who were given German names by the master masons that built them. The Germans were a master of this craft, and that is why Germany has the spectacular, idyllic, castles that it does. Although the most beautiful castles today are of course modern inventions and not medieval in the slightest, Germany primarily produced tower-castles in the medieval period.
>art
Printing, painting, and music from the Renaissance onwards.
The Emperor Maximilian I is of major importance to the artistic history of Central Europe, and was the first true patron-king to see the spread of the Renaissance into and throughout that region. The schools of painting and printmaking in Germany stood alongside the Netherlands and Italy in the Renaissance. Austria's embrace of baroque and rococo style churches was immense, and Central Europe's otherwise embrace of the architectural style, that originated in Italy and developed in France and Central Europe, in its fortresses and churches, is visible in dozens of examples.
This doesn't even scratch the surface of the skilled artisans of this region. The various crafts and examples of amazing applied arts are throughout museums. Their musicians are already renowned, and its contributions to Romanticism and Impressionism are well known.
>politically/ideologically
The political influences are not necessarily as complex as they are variable and woven throughout many regions.
Remember that the most important ideological/theological/political movement in the Renaissance came from the region the HRE entailed (the Protestant Reformation), but was in direct conflict with the HRE itself.
>scale and historical relevance
The German Peasants' War was the largest uprising of its time.
Relating less to the Protestant Reformation and more to the power of Free Imperial Cities, the merchant class, their ability to influences peasants to revolt, and the waning relevance and negligence of the low-nobility; the HRE contained the largest uprising and then the largest European war in history in the 30 Years War. To the political and military history of Europe, the HRE is of great historical value. The Marxist proto-historians/sociologists and their succeeding Communists contorted the narrative of the Peasants' War to depict a sort of proto-Communism, and for that reason, the subject of the German Peasants' War is now displayed on the world's largest oil painting.
And again, this doesn't even scratch the surface of the popular subjects of Swiss Pikemen and Landsknecht, everyone's favorite Renaissance infantry, whose importance is only rivaled by French standardization of calibers, but the production of cannons in the HRE was still considerable.
And one last, neat little detail, is that not only did Imperial Knights feud amongst themselves (the best known narrative of this being against the Ulrich von Wurttemberg), but they were quite literally the social justice warriors of their time. Far more tolerable and compelling than that name would imply though.
The Holy Roman Empire was home to the Habsburg, Wittelsbach, Wettin, Hannover, and Hohenzollern families, who have been some of the most powerful royal families in Europe.
>>454921
>Romanesque, Gothic and Rennaissence.
Birthplace, France and Italy.
>The birth of Dutch Capitalism.
That was Flanders, therefore not Holland. Antwerp to be more precise. Until it got wrecked and some people and moneys managed to escape to Amsterdam and as a result that irrelevant shithole started to flourish.
>Hansa
Irrelevant
>Imperial cities
Yes, and mongols had glorious yurts; no fucks given.
>City-States in Italy
That started to blossom when they united in the Lombard League and BTFO first and then left the HRE.
>800 years of splendour
More like ~200. After Barbarossa, it became an inoperant clusterfuck.
>Of victory and defeat
99% of defeat desu.
>>455583
>Hansa
>Irrelevant
No.
>Imperial cities
>Yes, and mongols had glorious yurts; no fucks given.
Free Imperial Cities were a developing power in the Early Modern Empire. Not sure what your problem is there.
>800 years of splendour
>More like ~200. After Barbarossa, it became an inoperant clusterfuck.
More like ~500 years of relatively comfortable living for its citizens, and ~800 years of splendor for all of its princes.
>Of victory and defeat
>99% of defeat desu.
Are you like upset, or something?
99% infighting/splintering, 1% winning the Italian Wars, then at the beginning of the 17th century, 2 centuries of living a lie.
>>455084
Modern Germany> Second Reich> Third Reich> First Reich.
>>455692
>Modern Germany>
>Modern Germany
> > anything
Stop.
>>454938
>Holy
Emperor crowned by the Pope.
>Roman
Kaiser is in reference to Caesar. Seen as the greatest Empire of Europe after Rome, truly successor to the Romans.
>Empire
Just said to be a cheeky cunt. Clearly an Empire.
>>455701
Not a fan of the Merkelreich?
>>455716
Merkelreich is worst reich.
>>455724
Most powerful state in the history of mankind, unites Europe under one banner, 3rd most populous entity in the world, highest standard of living in the world, contains many of the richest states in the world, many of the most progressive states. Merkelreich is clearly the greatest empire the world has ever seen.
>>455713
>Seen as the greatest Empire of Europe after Rome
Charlemagne's empire was certainly the greatest conquered empire in Europe after Rome. Otto consolidated what became the HRE from then on and was relatively great. But between then and Charles V, the kings in France, England, and sometimes even Hungary and Poland, consistently had more power.
And Charles V's empire was only partially won through conquest. The Netherlands was won by his grandfather through marriage, Spain was inherited through a series of lucky deaths, and Bohemia was given to him for lack of a better heir. Still, his empire was the greatest in Europe until Napoleon, but the medieval HRE swung between powerful and internally divided. Many of the 'emperors' were just the most powerful princes among powerful princes, and their relations with the papacy swung like a pendulum too.
>>455736
>Most powerful state in the history of mankind,
Call me when they get more Nukes than the USA and Russia and a better Army than the USA and Russia.
>>456246
>nukes
By that logic, Pakistan is greater than Canada
>>455645
>No
Yes
>Free Imperial Cities were a developing power in...
Lol
>~500 years of relatively confortable living for its citizens
Same as San Marino. Actually, for less time than San Marino. What a great accomplishment!!
>~800 years of splendor for all of its princes
~200 of cucks to the Emperor
~300 of cucking the Emperor and clusterfucking the Empire
~300 of cucked/slurping semen of foreign powers
>1% winning the Italian Wars
"The HRE winning the Italian Wars"
Toppest of the keks. Not even that.
>>456347
So tell me, what is it about the HRE that makes you so butthurt?
>>456347
>Toppest of the keks. Not even that.
>>456350
If I were butthurt I would make up shit about le HRE and come up with some deluded fantasy bullshit history of the HRE...
But I'm not, ladm8. :)
>>456367
What is it about the HRE that upsets you and brings you mental anguish?
Romanesque architecture developed throughout Europe, although its greatest exampble were built within in the boarders of the HRE (Cluny, Speyer, Hildesheim, Rhinelands)
Gothic architecture developed partly in East-Rome and the Bourgogne, yet first peaking in France.
At the dawn of Renaissance in Italy, the major contributing forces to its development were part of the HRE.
>>454921
>United
>Kingdom
>>456833
Cluny is absolutely not in the HRE, Gothic architecture developed in Paris, and the Renaissance started in Florence which by then had been a republic independent from the HRE for 300 years.
>>454921
>city states in Italy
Are you actually boasting of something that happened due to the weakness and incompetence of the empire? The italian city states propered in opposition to the empire, and by the 13th century they had basically thrown off everything but a nominal allegiance to the empire.
>>456852
At the time Cluny peaked an their the cathedral was built (showing Gothic features), Cluny was part of the HRE.
And Florence was no more autonomous than other Imperial cities within the empire's boarders.
>>456858
It's formal weakness is what makes the HRE so special and succesful. It actually allowed its region to develop autonomous character, culture and wealth. You have dozens of magnicient cities within its boarders. You can't say that about France or the UK.
>>456872
The Cluny Abbey was founded in 910 by William I, duke of Aquitaine and count of Auvergne, who was a vassal of the king of France and absolutely not of the HRE. After founding Cluny he released it of all obligations to his family, effectively making the abbey independent.
And Florence was not "autonomous", it was outright independent since it rebelled against the Marquisate of Tuscany in 1115. But then the same applies to all of Northern Italy which by the Renaissance was completely free of HRE influence.
>>456876
Yes you can.
>>456876
>the HRE was good because it was so weak it couldn't curtail the independent and unhelped development of its regions as autonomous political and cultural entities
Well by this standard, the greatest law ever passed in the empire was the disbandment ordered by Napoleon.
>>456888
Which would make it part of a centralized empire missing the crucial federal system that allowed the different regions to develop a distinct culture and prosperity in first place/argument invalid
>>456882
>But then the same applies to all of Northern Italy which by the Renaissance was completely free of HRE influence.
To be precise, many of the independent italian lords applied to be named imperial vicars by emperor, a completely nominal title for legitimacy purposes not unlike balkan and north african rulers applying for irades to confirm their right to rule from the Sublime Porte, that nonetheless meant that northern Italy stayed imperial until Venice and the french gobbled it up.
>>456888
>the greatest law ever passed in the empire was the disbandment ordered by Napoleon
kek
It's simple. Imagine you're a citizen of an empire, not happen to live it its nominal capital. Would you rather live the UK or France, sucked dry by the king and its capital, or flourish in an indipendet city, cheering your newly elected emperor once in a while? The cultural landscape in the HRE was far more prosperous and diverse than in France or the UK.
>>456919
I'd rather live in a powerful and stable country that doesn't get invaded or consumed by wars between shitty feudal lords every five minutes with no central authority to do shit about it.
And no, culturally as well Gothic France is where it's at. Thinkers and artists from all over had to go to France for relevance.
>>456925
>I'd rather live in a powerful and stable country that doesn't get invaded or consumed by wars between shitty feudal lords every five minutes with no central authority to do shit about it.
So you would rather live in Asia, gotcha.
>>456925
>And no, culturally as well Gothic France is where it's at.
meh renaissance germany, its fashion, crafts, characters, artists and developments in printmaking all seem like a more compelling regional period to me. france had a complete lull in the renaissance, and I sure as fuck wouldn't want to live there in the late medieval period to go through the black death and hundred years war.
>>456925
There were no feudal wars. And while I'm not questoning the significance of the French Gothic golden era, there wasn't anything else of significance in the kingdom. In the HRE, on the other side, you have incredible splendour reaching from the north (Hansa) to the south (Bavaria, Italy, the Alemmanic culture sphere), and west (the Dutch cultural sphere, Rhinelands,) to the east (Magdeburg, Dresden, Prague, Vienna)
>>455042
>Makes for a really interesting study, especially how the hell they were able to maintain these lands from far away, in wars, etc.
Always wondered this myself.
How the fuck did they? For example, Dutch Royal house is called Orange-Nassau, Orange is in Southern France while Nassau is in Hesse.
Yet someone had inherited that, so how would he rule govern properly?
Not really that defendable either if you're at war.
>>457007
In dynastic claims over territory, especially with the Dutch, the pattern I've noticed is:
>territory is inherited
>is the populous happy or not dissenting?
>yes
>relatively peaceful
>no
>split in the nobility (some with allegiance to the claimant, some with allegiance to the claimant's enemy, some with allegiance to the region)
>is the noble-led populous able to overthrow the claimant?
>yes
>usually with foreign aid gains its sovereignty
>no
>consistent revolt until the claimant is overthrown or the dissenting populous is culled
A similar pattern is identifiable with the Swiss.
The Czechoslovakians and Austrians were apparently quite satisfied to be a part of the Empire for most of its lifespan because both regions were the seats of powerful dynasties, whereas the Dutch and Swiss were a people that valued their sovereignty greatly. The Habsburgs failings in both regions were quite awful, both for themselves, especially in Switzerland, and those who lived in the Netherlands.
Something else to remember is that many regions saw no compelling reason to be sovereign because they were smallfry and there were greater evils than an overarching, relatively obsolete, imperial claim over their land.
WE
WUZ
KAISERS
I find this map really helpful in clarifying the numerous, small states that the HRE is otherwise comprised of.
It's really quite easy to get a simple timeline of Southern Germany, Northern Italy, and the Netherlands in the HRE from the late Medieval to late Renaissance. And while Northern Germany essentially just comprises of leftover Saxon states, and the Wettin's have a fairly coherent history, I've found it a littler harder to get a clear timeline of the region in my head.
I can't think of particularly relevant events in the region in this period outside of the Schmalkaldic war and the 95 Theses, because apart from that, it seems like South Germany was just entirely more relevant to politics (the seat/s of the Imperial Diet, therefore key events pertaining to the Protestant Reformation, the entire Peasant War), military (Swabian League, known for the formation of Landsknecht, Habsburg home to the east), art (mostly the Ausburg and Danube schools, with various workshops in this region, almost all relevant artists of the period otherwise came from South Germany), and ideology/intellectualism with the most humanists being in South Germany.
I'd be really interested if anyone could give a vague timeline of important events in North Germany through the first half of the last millennium.
