Where did the Song Dynasty fuck up? Was it inevitable that the northern Steppe peoples would come and fuck their shit up at some point?
>>445655
Think of it this way.
There are civilized countries, and there are nomadic countries. Civilized countries are obviously focused on building prosperous cities and having an actual economy and shit. Nomadic countries, or peoples rather, who live in tents and don't know how to farm or write, have absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain by nigging out and invading their much more prosperous but much more peace-loving neighbors who are just minding their own business. Steppe nomads are like intercity youths who do nothing but play basketball all day err day, to make it big in the NBA someday, because that's the only way out of the hood for them. The same deal with the nomads. Invading countries is like basketball for them, and China is like the mansions, and lobster dinners, and the blonde-haired white women that comes with the fame and money of being an NBA superstar. So as long as nomadic fucks exist, they're going to constantly be invading China because they have absolutely nothing else going on for them.
>>445655
The music stopped
>>445714
They always have western silk trade cities and then good ol' Persia. China has suffered the nomads, but it's experiences fades before the suffering of poor Persia.
>>445739
Fucking this. Every time Persia got back up from being raped, someone came along and fucked them again. I'd hate to be Persian living in the Middle Ages.
>>445714
This is one of the best analogies I've heard.
Nomads basically have nothing to lose. Waging war for nomads is easy as fuck, all they need is some bows and horses. Meanwhile logistics and environment is incredibly time and money consuming for civilized societies.
>>445739
Wasn't most of Persia's time spent being le nomadic empire?
>>445655
Honestly steppe nomads curb stomped everyone until the modern age. They screwed the romans, chinese, indians, everyone. The thing is they can attack you but it's very hard to attack back. What are you supposed to do when they burn down one of your extravagant cities? Kick over some dingy yurt in retaliation?
>>445655
>Where did the Song Dynasty fuck up?
Military expansion and reforms in the northern Song dynasty stopped once they signed the peace treaty with the Khitans.
As for the Southern Song, losing was inevitable. They also lost northern Chinese plains vital for horse husbandry.
>>445764
>They also lost northern Chinese plains vital for horse husbandry.
*They already lost northern Chinese plains vital for horse husbandry.
>>445762
>What are you supposed to do when they burn down one of your extravagant cities? Kick over some dingy yurt in retaliation?
Exactly. These nomads are basically opportunistic squatters. Even if you kick them out they're just going to go camp somewhere else, and then come back when they smell some weakness due to internal problems. If you chase after them, they'll just keep running away, all the way to frozen tundras where you'll shiver your balls off while other nomadic groups attack your cities while you're gone. It's a completely lose-lose situation.
>>445762
Build a wall to keep those nomad fucking shits out
>>445916
The Ming dynasty wall was the most sophisticated version and that's the current Great Wall. It was effective but that's the only version of the wall that was completely impenetrable by nomads physically.
>>445904
When Mongolia is sending its people, they're not bring their best. Their rapists. Their bringing Opium. And some I assume are good people.
-chinese donald trump
>>445925
>all those random bits of wall scattered across northern china during the warring states
>>445925
>the fucking audacity of the Khitans and Jurchens
Building walls when they're the fucking horse niggers
>>445984
Gotta stop them dangerous Siberian hunter-gatherers
>>445984
They got kucked by other horse niggers
Ironic, I know
>>445925
I don't want to derail this into a religion thread, but I only just now realized that biblical Gog and Magog refer to the constantly raiding steppe tribes. The quran even mentions an impenetrable wall that keeps them enclosed that will be destroyed, unleashing them during Armageddon.
>>446444
godlikeproductions is that way
>>445655
So what was the Western Xia? What did they do? All I know is that the Mongols wiped them out.
>>445747
>Nomads basically have nothing to lose. Waging war for nomads is easy as fuck, all they need is some bows and horses.
Actually is not. They have EVERYTHING to lose when they lost a war.
Just ask Dzungars. Oops: their war camps/civilian population is exactly the same thing, and the Qing basically genocided them to non-existence when they defeated them.
>>445762
See >>447456
You can kill their families and watch their alliances fall to infighting as you just wiped out their head clan.
>>445746
>I'd hate to be Persian living in the Middle Ages.
>turks
>mongols
>turko-mongols
>turks
>turks again
>>445714
the history of the Turks
>>445655
Building gardens instead of making gunpowder rockets seems like a bit of a flaw
>>447534
>disney villain nation
The country will succumb to a major civil war against the Kurds in the next 5-10 years. We'll see many more Turks and Kurds and Arabs coming to Europe, in the course of 30-50 years, they'll demand more rights and autonomies for the regions they'll form a majority in. The Europeans will rebel, since some of them would have to live by their "laws and traditions" even if they are not written in the constitution by being a minority in parts of their own country where the migrants settled. There will be blood, pogroms and probably genocide against the migrants and we will lose, since the migrants will be under the patronage of an outside coalition of countries that has interest in Europe failing. Eventually their rights will be granted, they will become autonomus, some even forming their own muslim states in Europe. With time their predominant traits will override our own, and Europe will be their continent as much as it was ours.
>>447456
>They have EVERYTHING to lose when they lost a war.
The point being that their everything is really fucking close to nothing, especially compared to their sedentary neighbours.
>>445748
Which is awful considering the persians were not nomadic. Imagine Yuan/Qing dynasty all day every day (with some small intermezzos of local rule) from the 600s to the 1900s.
>>447456
The "nothing to lose" sentence means your situation is so shit you may as well gamble everything you have to improve it.
>>447456
That's what I was going to ask. Why didn't those civilizations just genocide the nomad warriors, since they were always invading, raping and destroying their cities?
>>447571
Wasn't the Parthians also nomadic? meaning that it started even earlier?
>>445762
Civilizations with constant harassment from nomads like china and persia built massive fortification systems ("build a wall") and when it was possible they complemented it with punishment expeditions to prevent potential wannabe nomadic empires to rise. China did it with more success as they didn't really had a civilized rival for most of their history when they were not in a civil war.
>>447444
It was the kingdom of the Tanguts, a tibeto-burmese speaking people. They (or at least it's high culture and it's forms of government) were sinified.
>>447585
Yes. And the median empire suffered a
disastrous scythian invasion too. In fact, persians, medes and co. (or their immediate ancestors) were nomadic people too, though I can't say how settled or non-settled they were when they established the median empire.
But it's not the same when the nomad occuppier basically shares most of your culture, specially if your current ruler is a greek motherfucker ruling from Syria.
>>447444
I'm always more curious about Dali, but apparently nobody knows shit about them. Just that small kingdom that isn't china.
>>447636
All I know is that it was a bunch of chinamen in Yunnan doing their own thing.
>>447456
Fucking ruthless piece of shit Manchus. If I were Mao I would've exterminated each and every single one of them by stringing them up by the scrotum.
>>447636
>Ten of the 22 kings of Dali gave up the throne and became monks.
>>447636
shit, there's so little known about Dali that everything I knew came from Legend of the Condor Heroes.
>>447581
>That's what I was going to ask. Why didn't those civilizations just genocide the nomad warriors, since they were always invading, raping and destroying their cities?
They did. The Chinese solution to the Xiongnu problem was outright war against the Xiongnu and the genocide of the Xiongnu Confederation. Wei Qing and Huo Qubing kicked the Xiongnu's asses so hard they were forced to flee half-way across Eurasia just to get away from the Han Dynasty, which is why Turks started migrating westwards.
The nomads could only beat the settled peoples after the settled peoples were weakened by disaster, internal strife, or conflict with other settled peoples.
Yes.
>>447567
Why are you saying this? Because the sedentary populations are bigger then nomad ones?
>>451301
Sounds like this dude needs to read some Nicola Di Cosmo.
Don't just brush over everything that went down between the reign of Wu-di and the westward migration in the Eastern Han.
Not to mention the heqin..
There was no single "Chinese solution." It certainly was not outright war and genocide.
>>445655
Yes they were waiting for that shit to happen
>>451656
What do you mean?
>>445748
The Parthians became semi-nomadic after they established themselves in Iran, but the majority of their subjects (and by extension their military) were sedentary.
>>447456
>and the Qing basically genocided them to non-existence when they defeated them.
Notice how the Qing was Machu which were also semi-nomads?
>>447560
>Europeans being afraid of losing a continent and being ethnically expunged.
Interesting because Europeans are the only peoples that have actually done this to a mass group of peoples.
>>454279
They fear getting a taste of their own medicine basically.
That's why white Americans get really triggered about immigrants from Mexico.
It's like the native Americans being colonized by the Anglos all over again.
