Are Babylon, Assyria, Carthage part of "western civilization"?
Are Russia and Poland? Were the Ottomans and Persia?
Where do we draw the "western" line, when did we start drawing it, what reasons do we have to draw it, and has the "western culture" won and taken over all of the world by now, leaving "eastern" values in the past?
I'd like to hear a historical or philosophical approach, and would like to avoid a /pol/ approach. Thank you.
No.
Western basically means Europe and North America
>>441996
So Brazil isnt western? South Africa and Australia arent western?
Doesnt seem sensible to me.
>>442000
[citation needed]
>>442000
STOP
SCREAMING
Heirs of Grrece and Rome. So Europe + New world countries colonized by euros.
>>442010
You're retarded.
>>442017
Then whats the difference between these western states and the eastern ones?
What does western stand for?
>>442026
Places that WRE once ruled
>>442018
no u
>>442033
WRE didnt rule Australia or Canada.
>>442041
Colonies and dominions of Britain which was part of WRE
How old are you? You seem very simple
>>442048
If your definition of western culture, architecture, values, political systems and heritage is "where wre was", you are the simple one.
>>442057
But its a bit better than your definition isnt it?
>>442066
I havent stated my definition. Besides, yours is clearly wrong, so comparing it to anything is a waste.
>>442057
Canada and Australia fit better into Western civilization than Islamic, Indian, Sinic, etc.
>>442071
Yet many modern islamic countries were once part of the WRE, thus this definition is bad.
>>442070
>I havent stated my definition
Obviously, your the simpleton asking stupid questions, so you dont have an opinion of your own
;^)
>>442080
You are the imbecile proposing a retarded statement, and refusing to argue in favor of it.
Shitting out a bad opinion and expecting others to take it for fact is not how you contribute.
>>442084
Well have fun with your non-existent contributions, I cant be bothered anymore
Germanic country = western
>>441988
>Babylon, Assyria, Carthage, Persia
no
>Poland
yes
>Russia and Ottomans
partially
>has the "western culture" won
no, "eastern" values are still alive and well and application of "western" values on Islamic countries had rather unfortunate results
division started in antiquity between Greeks x Persians, in Medieval period difference was Christianity x Islam, in Early Modern Civilized x Uncivilized. Western civilization are now basically rich democratic countries with European heritage.
>>441988
>thinking there are definite lines between anything
Dude, this is not math... We had this thing called globalization, literally all of the world now has a bit of west in it.
>>442095
What does "germanic country" mean according to you? Were the Roman Empire and the Greek states eastern?
>>442096
What was the difference between the Roman Empire and Carthage, and between Byzantium and Persia, that made one western and one eastern?
What is the difference between Poland and Russia that makes one western and one Eastern?
What are the eastern values that are still alive and well, and how do they compare to the western values of individualism, representation, democracy, free market, etc that are common around the globe and are implemented in one form or another?
What is the difference between Christianity and Islam that makes the first strictly western and the second strictly eastern, other than the arbitrary geographical division?
Note I am not trying to be a faggot here, just want to hear more details.
>>441988
For the most part Western Countries seem to have the following:
-Democracy
-Christianity
-Separation of church and state
-Capitalism
-Citizens who are majority European or descendant of Europeans
It would be good to establish when to consider Western Civilization begins, a usual candidate is Ancient Greece. It could be argued that before that Western Civilization did not exist and spread to Rome, and through their conquests they brought that to most of Europe.
As for the Ottomans, they seemed to attempt to reform to more Western ways in the 19th century and were more accepting of it than other Islamic countries.
I would not include Persia in Western Civilization in Ancient or Medieval context, but the Shah did kiss the West's ass.
>>442110
>What does "germanic country" mean according to you? Were the Roman Empire and the Greek states eastern?
I mean today
>>442110
>Carthage
being opponent of typical western states like Rome or Greek states, located in Africa, semitic and destroyed
>Persia
not Christian, few direct contacts with Europe
>Poland
western Christianity, royal crown from Roman Emperor, not conquered by Tatars, later divided between Prussia and Austria
>what makes Christianity strictly western
because Christianity was religion of Western countries. It has huge influence on development in Western countries (literacy and new technologies often arrived to pagan countries with missionaries and monks), and Western countries had huge influence on Christianity. Islam never experienced renaissance, reformation or enlightenment (and therefore is a bit incompatible with Western culture).
>>441988
>I'd like to hear a historical or philosophical approach
Well the historical approach is the idea that a continuity of "civilisation" is eisegetic bullshit, and to do detailed archival work.
Yes.
>>441988
>Carthage
yes
>>442119
What does "germanic country" mean today then? Its a shitty stormfront circlejerk term. Half of Europe cant possibly qualify as "germanic", including the places where western civilization started.
>>441988
>western civilization
No such thing. There's only CIVILIZATION. It started in the fertile crescent and shit and flourished in Greece and Persia and shit and spread elsewhere blablablabal.
So yeah, Babylon and Assyria and Carthage were part of Civilization. Now China and India are a part of civilization, just another kind. So if you want to call our brand civilization "western" go ahead, but it can become misleading.
>>442273
Love for individualism and freedom, and desire for representation and influence in the government of state, and the quest for equality among people, are typically western things.
Certain architecture and city layout can also be called western, as can food, traditions, etc.
There is such a thing as western civilization, and there are places int he world where it hasnt been fully accepted.
>>442057
The Roman Empire ruled all of the Mediterranean and the Levant, yet none of Germany or Scandinavia.
So Germany and Scandinavia aren't Western, but Syria, Turkey and Libya are?
>>441988
Western Civilisation historically is all of Europe west of St Petersburg and North of North Africa
>>441988
>Where do we draw the "western" line
If the country was once Catholic or Latin Rite Chalcedonian, it's Western.
>>442292
Plenty of countries that we wouldn't deem Western have some or all of that, while plenty of countries deemed Western have none of that.
For instance, I find it hard to believe that there is anywhere in the world where the people don't desire influence on their government.
>>442341
> Nigeria, Philippines, Mexico are Western
> Australia, New Zealand, USA, Canada aren't
>>442344
>latin america
>not western
It's the last bastion, really.
[WHY DID YOU DELETE MY POST, "JANITOR"? WHY WAS I "WARNED" FOR THIS POST?]
>>441988
THE NOTION OF "WESTERN CIVILIZATION"; ID EST: THE "WESTERN/EASTERN CIVILIZATION" DIVIDE, STOPPED BEING VALID DURING THE EARLY SIXTEENTH CENTURY DUE TO THE DISCOVERY OF AMERICA, WORLD EXPLORATION, AND GENERAL CULTURAL, AND ECONOMIC, INTERACTION.
THOSE WHO NOW REGARD "WESTERN CIVILIZATION" TO BE A VALID NOTION ARE IDIOTS, AND THOSE WHO NOW NOT ONLY REGARD "WESTERN CIVILIZATION" TO BE A VALID NOTION, BUT AN ACTUAL THING ALSO, ARE MORONIC IDIOTS.
>>442375
Why are you reposting this garbage, and again in all caps?
>>442375
Hi there!
You seem to have made a bit of a mistake in your post. Luckily, the users of 4chan are always willing to help you clear this problem right up! You appear to have used a tripcode when posting, but your identity has nothing at all to do with the conversation! Whoops! You should always remember to stop using your tripcode when the thread it was used for is gone, unless another one is started! Posting with a tripcode when it isn't necessary is poor form. You should always try to post anonymously, unless your identity is absolutely vital to the post that you're making!
Now, there's no need to thank me - I'm just doing my bit to help you get used to the anonymous image-board culture!
>>442472
There's no need to have a line. Love for individualism and freedom is just as western as love for the Pope, love for empereror and shit. Desire for representation is modern. Quest for equality if modern. I agree with city layout and foods.
Don't be deceived by modern history, unless you want to define a "contemporary western civilization" also don't overestimate the influence the US had on the development of the current iteration of the "west"
>>442348
Eastern Europe is the last bastion. Latin America is a haven of feminism and similar horseshit.
>>442033
>Scotland isn't
>Romania is
k
>>441988
Any culture that is primarily based on the culture of the Germanic tribes that migrated through the WRE. Franks, Goths, Lombards, AngleJuteSaxon hybrids, Romano Celts etc.
Its essentially Germanic tribalism if you get down to it.
I'd argue that Western European civilization isn't the same as Western civilization. The latter are really the heirs of Greece and Rome in religion, customs, laws etc, so for example Russia could be classified as a part of Western civilization even though they're not Western European.
>>442205
Persia though has a patron saint though, America doesn't.
>>441988
"Western Civilization" is a meme.
>>441988
>Western Civilization
Doesn't exist. England was different from France was different from Spain was different from Italy. They were all united under the Catholic Church, at one point in history, but Greece wasn't a part of that. Would anyone say with a straight face that Greece is not a part of "Western Civilization"? Because then if you say all forms of Christianity, Russia is a part of that, as well as Ethiopia, Armenia, and the minority Christian populations in Central Asia, Persia and India.
Western Civilization is the second worst meme after "white people." There is no "white" nationality. You seem like a fucking retard acting as if it's an absolute.
>>441988
"Western Civilization" and its members are defined by the source of their religious and intellectual beliefs. The "Western Civilization" that we know today isn't defined geographically, but defined by those cultures that have their roots in the philosophical concepts of Ancient Greece, legal concepts of Ancient Rome, and intellectual/religious concepts of Christendom.
An examples of this would be secularism, a value that took hold during the Enlightenment, but was first formed during the 13th/14th centuries. It's the conception that the state and religion are two separate things - not necessarily that they should be two separate things, but that they constitute two separate institutions. Western states subscribed to this view. Those coming from the Middle Eastern or Oriental intellectual traditions did not.
tl;dr Western civilization is defined by where the intellectual traditions of a society originate from, ie europe as opposed to arabia or china
>>442205
Christianity started in the Middle East, why is everyone saying Christianity is western tradition? You may have asked most of for culture from Greece but Greeks adopted most of their culture from the Middle East.
>>445632
>Christianity started in the Middle East
And it very quickly moved West, as it spread throughout the Roman Empire, and settled in Rome and Constantinople after that. Christianity has existed for the vast majority of its lifetime in Europe.
>Greeks adopted most of their culture from the Middle East
Not their political or philosophical beliefs, those were original.
>>445648
Yeah, I agree with this. Christianity may have been birthed in the Middle East, but it was only able to take off because of Rome/Constatinople.
>>441988
>western civilization
Proper, starts with Clovis' unification of Gaul, the actions of Charles Martel and the foundation of Christendom, and the conglomeration of Western Europe known as the HRE under Charlemagne.
>>445627
>Arabia
But Arabian intellectual traditions came from hellenised Persians.
>>441988
Are Native Americans considered Western or Eastern?
Was Great Zimbabwe western or eastern?
This is what it actually means
>>442205
>Islam never experienced renaissance, reformation or enlightenment
But that's wrong
>>446128
Is shitposting western or eastern?
>Tfw you realize Rome and Greece (Western culture) are offshoots of Middle Eastern civilizations(Mesopotamian, Phoenician, etc)
>>446151
Tbh
>>442080
He is actually right. You're just butthurt and a fking retard
>>445572
>There is no "white" nationality
I agree, but you can blame America for that one
>>441998
Yes, they are, because they were created by Western European states... and includes sizable populations from those areas.
Stop conflating 'where they once were' with 'where said states heavily established themselves.'
Poland and Russia are also Western, by grace of being European in origin.
All of the world is Western m8.
>>441988
Western is a term developed when "Europe" and "european" became obsolete to define the civilized world from the european perspective.
An American, a Canadian or an Australian would not consider themselves european for purely geographical reasons, yet they have more in common with western Europe than Russia or even Poland.
Countries in regions like eastern europe, south africa or latin America can be considered western or not depending on how we judge that they're culturally europeans living in non-european soil. This means there can't be a monolithic definition of "western civilization", but I'm sure you'll agree that the western one isn't the only with influenced countries who may or may not be part of it.
>>447192
Correcting myself: in the case of eastern europeans, it's the opposite case. Nations that live in europe but some may argue they do not share an ethos with western europeans (who make up all those terms). Though the definition of eastern europe is, by itself, tricky and non-monolithic.
is the west influenced by eastern cultures? sure. does it identify with those? no. that's the distinction you have to make and accordingly, what is or is not "part" of the west is a matter of definition.
a good approach are studies in "cultural memory" as developed by jan and aleida assmann. they argue (and this has become a major theory) that all of culture is essentially a feat of memory. a group is what it chooses to remember about its origins.
western cultural memory is above all founded on a) greco-roman culture (from where we get our philosophy, architecture, law, philology) and b) israel which is of course the foundation of our religious heritage.
and that's pretty much where it stops. the east has informed those "mother-cultures" of course, but we don't identify with them. they serve as an "other", the "orient", something that is used to identify *against* more than anything.
>>442041
Britain inherited the WRE so your wrong there
>>441988
>Where do we draw the "western" line
It's entirely subjective
You could go by the Cold War line where West = Capitalism and East = Communism.
You could say that Western cultures are cultures that were influenced by the ancient Greek ând latter Roman ideals
But it's not something you can neatly define. Mainly I think it comes down largely to Self-identity.
Western civilization is an umbrella term which means different things in different contexts - Christianity, Hellenistic heritage, pro-US rich democracies in the cold war.
Be specific.
Western civilization came as a result of the Greek polis (city-state) culture, Roman imperial culture and Christian community culture.
Greeks started it all and inspired (Greco-) Roman culture which inspired Christian (Greco-Roman) culture.
The polis culture was "democratic", so people had to be able to argue and convince others, from this we get sophistry, philosophy and logic, and from that we get everything else. This is completely different than the bureaucratic Chinese culture, or any other culture where truth is derived from authority and gravitas of warlords and high priests.
Phoenician city-state culture was very similar to Greek polis culture, and they might have inspired each other as they both were developed by their colonies on foreign shores (Asia Minor for Greeks and Carthage for Phoenicians), which then inspired the homeland to create city-state. Ala how the democratic institutions of European colonies (USA) inspired Europeans to adopt more democratic rule (France).
However, even though Phoenicians also had colonies and city-states, our inspiration draws from the Greek ones, and the works, thinkers and city-states of the Phoenicians are for us obscure.
Assyrians predate Greeks and are not western.
Ottoman and Persians are Muslim or Zoroastrian and not Christian and therefore not Western.
Russia and Poland are definitely Western, but not Russia in the modern political sense.
>Are Babylon, Assyria, Carthage part of "western civilization"?
Sure, why not. Also India, China, and the Mayans.
Now if you want a definition of Western civilisation that is useful and actually makes sense, it appeared during the Middle Ages in Western Europe, so no it doesn't include any of that.
>>448780
Nice post
>>448780
>(USA) inspired Europeans to adopt more democratic rule (France)
what
>>441998
>So Brazil isnt western?
No, it isn't. They've diluted their culture and race with Indian and negro blood.
>South Africa and Australia arent western?
Australia is. South Africa is borderline.
>>441998
>So Brazil isnt western?
No, it isn't. They've diluted their culture and race with savage Indian and loathsome negro blood.
>South Africa and Australia arent western?
Australia is. South Africa is borderline.
>>447299
Japan and South Korea aren't western.
>>441988
Mordern Western Civilization is about 300 years old starting from the Enlightment
Western Civilization as a whole was started by ancient Greece
Are Babylon, Assyria, Carthage part of "western civilization"?
No but they inspired Roman and Greece Culture, Capitalism while is regarded as Western had its origin in the Phoenician system
Are Russia and Poland? Were the Ottomans and Persia?
Persia no, Russia and Ottomans partly and Poland yeah
Where do we draw the "western" line, when did we start drawing it, what reasons do we have to draw it, and has the "western culture" won and taken over all of the world by now, leaving "eastern" values in the past?
Eastern Values are collectivist and Western Values are Individualist, due to British/American dominance Western Values spread
But even then Eastern Culture didn't die out, many cultures are still collectivist and there are a lot of Eastern Influence in Western Countries(Christianity is an eastern religion and it still has influence in the US which is the most powerful mordern western culture)
>>451606
>diluted their culture and race with Indian and negro blood
Get the fuck off /his/ and go back to /pol/.
>>441988
In the modern connotation of the world no they weren't really
>>448780
I think a key thing that people forget is the interaction between Western states.
Persia, North Africa, and the Middle East were and had the possibility of being Western. However, Islam is not Western and thus cut those places off from joining into Western heritage fully. Was Roman North Africa not Western? Of course it was but to due to more recent history it stopped being Western and became Islamic.
Non-Western countries could also become truly Western if given enough time.
>>441988
Ancient Near Eastern Cultures are Western. Especially as reflected in legal and moral sentiments as translated through Judaism and Christianity. Even in late Antiquity, the Eastern Mefiterranean was the center of wealth and Learning.
It's only when Islam destroys the last vestiges of Hellenism does that part of the world split from the West to become Muslim.
>>451606
Brazil is whiter than South Africa, by far though.
Brazil is like 48% white, South Africa is only 7%.
>>451606
> No, it isn't. They've diluted their culture and race with Indian and negro blood.
t. Jamal Taco who is 18% pure Norwegian viking.
>>448780
>Ala how the democratic institutions of European colonies (USA) inspired Europeans to adopt more democratic rule (France).
This is as good bait as when Americans call their revolt for the "British civil war".
>>453214
Have you read Thompson?
>>441988
Trying to define what is and isn't Western civilization is like trying to define the exact point day turns into night. There isn't one. It's a gradual drop-off and whatever cutoff point you pick will be entirely arbitrary.
