How did Somalia manage to fall so hard?
It has:
>oil
>a great geographical location
>ores
>one religion
>one language
>a single native population
It had the potential to turn into a fairly rich trading nation. Where did it fuck up?
It's inhabited by Somalis.
>>438625
This. Tribalism killed Somalia.
>>438632
Colonialism with no exit strategy is what ruined it. Not saying it was a utopian before england took somali land and italy the rest but that divison didnt help
>>438639
How so? During Siad Barre's rule, Somalia was mostly stable. After the failed war on Ogaden he lost influence and his government collapsed.
Somalis are extremely tribal. They were more loyal to the tribe than the country.
>>438645
>How so?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatekeeper_state
>>438601
the biggest problem by far is corruption
ive actually been there and ive seen kids not be able to go to public schools because the teacher told them he wanted $20 to teach them
essentially the government is completely disfunctional and this is what leads to rebel groups establishing their own governments that can better be in tact with the people
have you ever met one?
they are literally retard tier
>>438745
Because at those times, they had no "Somalia" to call their own. Different sultanates of different tribes appeared all over Somalia, some more influential over others. When you force a country on them, they're not going to easily comply.
Somalia's economy is fine since it relies on pastoralism. Also, Somaliland exists.
It's pretty odd that no one in the thread has mentioned the collapse of the Soviet sphere.
I'm not going to say Russia was the only thing propping up Barre's regime, but it's no coincidence that things really started going to shit in 1991. It's like blaming Slavs for Eastern Europe being backward, and Eastern Europe was way more industrialized and developed than Somalia
>>438601
Because it has:
>oil
>a strategically important geographical location of international interest.
>ores
>two religions
>one language
>a single native population
>Several tribes and warlords
>>438601
It was an Italian colony
>>438773
>Because at those times, they had no "Somalia" to call their own. Different sultanates of different tribes appeared all over Somalia, some more influential over others.
Again, why didn't this situation turn into something like the Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Southeast Asia etc?
>Somalia's economy is fine since it relies on pastoralism.
This is a rather recent development. While livestock has always been a fairly important, it used to be more like the Gulf states before the discovery of oil than Sudan, and the current economy of Somalia is seriously backward compared to the one they had under socialism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_history_of_Somalia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Somalia
>>438798
Or in other words, Somalia's economy relies on pastoralism because all other sectors collapsed. It's anything but fine.
>>438789
german detected
>>438798
I actually don't know. Is it Somalis themselves compared to Arabs? Someone else mentioned the Soviet sphere of influence popping but I don't know the gulf state's relation with communism that time.
>>438885
I really can't see any other explanation other than their colonial experiences and the sides they took during the cold war, which makes sense since these had the most sociocultural and economic impacts on their societies.
>>438777
>two religions
Please elaborate, The dominant religion is Islam in Somalia, nothing else has or had as much influence in the country like say India before pakistan existed where there was a heavy amount of muslims in a hindu country.
>can get a AK47 for 10$ in central Mogadishu market.
>>439030
Truly Libertarian paradise.
>>439030
fuck
the cheapest one here i can get is a Chinese sdm copy for 500 Euros
>>438776
>I'm not going to say Russia was the only thing propping up Barre's regime, but it's no coincidence that things really started going to shit in 1991.
The Soviet Union dropped support for Barre's Somalia well before then on account of his invasion of Ethiopia (another Soviet-backed country), though.
>>438601
Same reason Germany did not unite for so long.
It has so many claims on its neighbors
>>438601
How did their neighbours do so well tho
>>438645
>During Siad Barre's rule, Somalia was mostly stable.
I wonder why...
>>439136
That's true. Maybe it had more to do with the collapse of Communism and the end of the Cold War in general rather than Russian support specifically?
>>439011
>Somalis do something good
>called Caucasian
>Somalis do something bad
>called black/non-whites
Can we stop this?
Mainly Muslim and it was an Italian colony. Combine that with extreme tribalism and you have the perfect cocktail for a failed state.
>>439011
Kindly fuck off /pol/.
deficient human capital
Ethiophian here we actively make sure that Somalia stays shit and it has worked out pretty well do far.
>>439836
Don't kid yourself, you have much less influence on African politics than intercontinental actors.
>>439856
You are right, but wouldn't have been able to do it if it wasn't for the war on terror
>>438601
Foreign Aid.
>>439110
Don't you wish you lived in Somalia?
>>439856
>Ethiopia has less influence in Africa than the Amerifats
What?
>>438601
Stop watching mtv dumbfucks... The US had been desetavilizing the region scince ever. After the fall of Barre... there were sevral war lord, but th islamic tribunal start gaing force. And the us, destrou the IT, and that open the door to al Shabab to grow up. No to talk aboyut that the US finance most of the vary war lords.
>>439836
>Making it stay shit.
A failed state that is a breeding ground for terrorists and you border it? If anything I would just sector off the ogaden so no Somali would get in the rest of Ethiopia.
>>440174
The Ogaden is the wealthiest part of Ethiopia besides Oromia. Fully half of the States revenues come from those two states.
>>440076
Somalia is like Ukraine or Burma. It has a strong neighbor who has an interest in seeing it broken up.
>>440191
Not him but in what way? Somalia doesn't have anything of interest like Ukraine or Bruma. The difference is that Somalia has terrorists who could get in Ethiopia and do damage like they have been doing in Kenya.
>>440250
>Coastline not being valuable in itself
Also There have never been Somali terrorist attacks in any country beside Kenya or Uganda. That's not how they roll
>>440266
>Coastline
If they wantee coastline, they would go for Eritrea since it's unlikely any western power would allow them to push Somalia off the map.
>That's not how they roll
You seem to know about this, why only Kenya or Uganda when it is easier to get in Ethiopia via Ogaden?
>>440276
Eritrea is easily defendable and they were victorious at Badme
>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eritrean–Ethiopian_War
They took 300k casualties for a single village.
>Why not Ethiopia
Kenya and Uganda are perceived as dishonorable foreign interlopers. Ethiopia is their traditional enemy and knows how to play the game.
>>440302
Holy shit that war is insane.
>Surveying the extensive trenches the Eritreans had constructed, Ethiopian General Samora Yunis observed, "The Eritreans are good at digging trenches and we are good at converting trenches into graves. They, too, know this. We know each other very well".[46]
Judging by the Somalis I have met personally it's because they're incredibly stupid and violent.
Somalians right now are conquering Sweden. I'd say they are doing fine.
>>438601
>Oil only has had relevance in the past 100 years
>Somalia has next to no real vegetation, particularly in the north its literally almost all desert
>Somalia has primarily, since antiquity, consisted of city-states with little actual cohesive unity, leading to the modern day tribalistic situation. Tribalism in Somalia is honestly a bit different than tribalism in many other African states.
>Somaliland is a fully functional democracy and currently receives no international aid or recognition, and yet has largely rebuilt itself and is on a very stable path. They are the largest anti-piracy force in the region, with piracy pretty much limited to Puntland controlled coast that is legally operated by southern Somali transitional govt
>The southern country is the result of a perfect storm; the largest mechanized army on the continent collapsed and fought itself with enough weaponry to fight non-stop for 20 years with a full weapons embargo in place.
Western + Ethiopian interventionist memes aside, ancient Somalia was about as unified as Sengoku era Japan, with the main difference being they shared a landmass with other empires and never needed to unify in the face of a greater danger until far into the the modern age. Even then the Dervishes were quite successful against the British
>>438798
Because the different sultantes had enough lower to rule over each other but none had enough to take over the rest. This is also ignoring that Arabia only even exists independently because of Ottoman collapse senpai, western interests supplied the backbone of the current Saudi existence
>>441510
I will also clarify that I am northern Somali so obviously I'm going to have some bias, but feel free to ask non-meme questions and I'll give non-meme answers. I came from a relatively wealthy background and have pretty close family in the current Somaliland government and the former Barre government, so I can probably get answers if I don't know the answer myself
>>441565
why is somaliland different from the rest of somalia? why did it secede? is there any prospect that the somali govt will ever try to conquer you in the future?
>>441510
I didn't know there was such a thing as Somaliland. Strange that I've never heard about them in the news or anywhere else. Going by what I've read, they seem to have things worked out for themselves.
The people spend too much time tanning instead of getting things done.
>>438639
>100 or so years of Arabs and Europeans being there is what caused all the bad stuff to happen
Ok I don't think there was an exit strategy after the fall of Rome or the British empire yet plenty of their former subjects did fine afterwords despite being ruled for much longer and exploited much harder.
We wuz opprezzed just seems like an excuse. Colonialism in all of Africa was just too brief to have such a major impact, and it seems every society that was "affected" by it went the same way...
>>441565
I see that the meme about Somalians in Minnesota holds true, eh?
>>441613
Well problem is twofold as first of all the clans are totally different, and second of all the north was colonized by the British. Now individually this isn't an issue, as after all we lived initially quite peacefully under Barre and the previous presidents. However after the Ogaden war when Barre started to alienate people who were of his clan and started to persecute other clans in the far north and parts of the south, the country rebelled and the Somaliland formed. Their borders are essentially the British borders, and our official claim is that after Independence from Britain but before assimilation with Greater Somalia we were technically independent and so we legally reverted back to that quasi state situation. I don't foresee a war anywhere near the future, as Somalia literally cannot even control its own capital and stop its own cabinet from being subject to suicide bombs. By the time the African Union fully fixes the shitholes that is southern Somalia, we will probably be at least as powerful as any other AU member state, and we'll probably be able to force the issue with regard to statehood. As it stands, SL forces have an easy time with most pirates and there haven't been any terror attacks in the country since it was founded. Our prisons are literally overflowing with pirates captured from the south off of our shores. In fact, SL is so stable, many escaping the Yemeni war have immigrated to Somaliland due to its distance and relative stability
>>441687
*every African society that was affected by it
All of Europe was technically colonized by Europeans, its not doing so shitty. Hong Kong was colonized, its pretty nice now. South America, their situation is not as extreme as Africa's and they've got plenty of muh oppreshun stories. Even India isn't doing so bad. Why did every African nation fail and why do they continue to fail? Who do Africans living in the west still fail? Can the clutches of oppression really be that difficult to escape?
>>441660
It's quite sad that the current US administration is willing to send poor little Kerry into Mogadishu but they won't even spare us the dignity of acknowledging our existence. Probably the only real evidence that supports the theory that nobody wants to see a strong independent Somali people, as it would cause some inconvenience
>>441695
Ayy, my father actually came to the US on scholarship, to the University Of Wisconsin Milwaukee in the late 70s. So no, I'm not one of million dindus in Minnesota that got accepted for refugee status, I legit support the Packers. (If you're wondering how old I have to be for him to have immigrated in the 70s, he pretty much married my mom when he was 50ish)
Pretty tired atm and typing on my phone is giving me too many typos, I'll answer some more questions if anybody is curious in the morning, assuming the thread isn't pruned
>>441565
A. Where are you currently living? Still in Somaliland?
B. What sort of resources does Somaliland have, in addition to being at a really important trading junction?
C. What's the beef between Somaliland and Puntland?
C.I. What is Puntland?
D. Would you say that the Somaliland democracy is well functioning? As in, mostly transparent elections, no massive corruption, legitimacy from the governed people, etc.
E. Where do you see Somaliland heading in the future?
All of this of course is
>implying you're actually North Somalian
>>439763
>>441696
cool, appreciate the response
>>439011
Explane Japan then.
>>441732
>'Merica backs shitty militia groups in Mogadishu that blow shit up and don't help improve the situation there
>Won't acknowledge a functioning democracy that's trying to elevate Somalia from being a hellhole
I'm continually disappointed by American foreign policy. Every time I examine it a new cynical hypocrisy stands out to me.
>>441565
Do you think greater Somalia should still happen?
>>441735
>fedora to not be a /pol/tard
Jesus christ man, take a breather, you are in way too deep.
Seek help.
>>441565
Are you living in Somaliland? How habitable is it compared to Somalia?
>>441510
This is the best thing about /his/. Misinformation circlejerks torn down by people who know what they're talking about.
>>438601
Excuse my lack of knowledge, but isnt Somalia just the muslim part of Ethiopia?
I'm guessing it "failed" when it declared independence, whenever that was.
A country consisting of Ethiopia, Eritrea and Somalia would be pretty legit.
>>441945
Somalia has never been a part of Ethiopia. They've been separate since 600 bc.
>>441752
The punch line is that the american intervention in Somalia is seen as a heroic act of honor and humanism. Look up the movie Black Hawk Down to see our brave lads fight against all odds, on the other side of the world, to save a foreign nation. Such is the american way.
Anyway, here is an article I'm reading right now, written by a genuine Jamal.
>Identifying Causes of State failure: The Case of Somalia
http://www.atlantic-community.org/documents/10180/280d1fa4-ccd0-43fa-af90-834e3b2bb9b3
He lists arbitrary borders, poverty, tribalism as the main reasons. Bit of ebil white man colonizing stuff, but overall its well cited.
>>441974
AMERICA
FUCK YEAH!
>>442905
>>>/pol/
Somalia is a libertarian utopia.
>>438768
>literally retard tier
>literally
>retard
>tier
Embarassing.
>>439431
not on 4chan we can't
>>440336
hello /pol/
>>441732
I'm also Somali but my family came from the odagan. I currently live in Ohio
>>441510
this, people forget that Africa is very tribal like and is just like the old ancient city states, many Africans don't see themselves as Somali, Kenyan, Rwandan, etc. they see themselves as their tribes, just like how Greeks saw themselves as Spartans and Athenians.
>>443278
Is your forehead gigantic?
>>441698
>All of Europe was technically colonized by Europeans
lol
>>439110
>500 Euros
Damn son, where do you live? Can't get one below 800€ here.
>>443278
CAGDER
C
A
G
D
E
R
>>441696
This is amazing actually
>>441696
>deluded Isaq detected
Said Barre executed anyone that opposed his claim to the throne, you Northerners were no different. Abdullahi Yusuf and many other MJ men were even held in Ethiopian prisons.
And your post is filled with claims that Somaliland is the 'good guy' of this civil chaos, which is baffling, something you know. The so called Somaliland regime even enforces military presence against the will of the locals in cities such as Laasaano, why are you so opposed to Khaatumo and Awdal making their own states?
Funny enough that Dahabshiil is known to be a sponsor of Al Shabaab, it's no coincidence that those terrorists never target Somaliland officials. Even the son of the late Saado Ali has opened a case against your clan bank for putting a bounty on her head.
Piracy is a Puntland issue, something they also dealt with on their own with the help of NATO-EU. There are literally no pirate prisoners in Somaliland, there are all locked in Bosaso, so I'm not sure where you got that from either.
for some reason there are a lot of somalis on the internet and immigrating to sweden
does this anything to do with the no government and it being a libertarian utopia?
I heard they were able to set up cellular networks far more cheaply than in statist countries, is it the same for the internet? Are there literally Somalis who can't afford daily bread and live in mud huts with internet connections in this thread right now?
Somalia is the real life game of thrones, there will never be peace. Although we've made some political progress in the last few years after a central federal government has been established and that the country is likely to hold the first public elections in the upcoming year. Erodgan's Turkey and China are also both heavily investing in the country.
There has been a 4.5 power sharing system in place for Somalia for a long time and that has obviously proven not to work since one clan will always want to rule over the other, that being what led to the civil war of 1991 till recent 2012. Now we're taking the federal route, a clan based one obviously, where states are being allowed to form their own ruling administrations. It has so far showed promise but they're still post-civil war mistrust between clan administrations.
We are just getting on our feet and I as a Somali born in the west can say that I remain hopeful, just that if we Somalis put our differences aside and work towards a unified course. Somalia hanolaato
>>444931
Somalis care more about shit-talking enemy tribes than food, water and stability. Need internet and phone service for that
>>444931
Somalis in Sweden are merely a product of the Swedes being known as people who promote peace and diplomacy. I'm sure they expect some favours from the new Somali government.
Somalis do have cheap access to Internet, something that sort of became a trend in late 2011. I think it is a top up service where you just put money in your phone and have access to the providers Internet from there. Not sure how much but I'd assume the data charges are extremely cheap since the people have limited income. I wouldn't mind seeing Somalis on here but they mostly dwell on Normiebook, they need to be introduced to the interesting parts of the Internet
>>445027
Hahahah you could be right
>>439856
Keep telling yourself that Thebet.
Once we rebuild and gain military strength, we'll finish the job the Soviets stopped us from in '77
>>438789
Check out fucking Sudan Nigger, that was a British protectorate, or filthy Burkina faso, that was French, Congo was Belgian and fucking Togo was German. Looks like Italy has had the worst colonial politic when all these shitholes have resources and shit but still are the shitholes they are called for....
>>441698
Africa failed while the rest didn't because all the natives in the Americas were either assimilated, displaced, or killed.
>>438625
First reply best reply
>>440174
If Somalia us unstable Ethiopia has no competition and gets free money from other people to police it.
>>441687
You speak of the fall of rome and the british as if the british had been colonizing the world just some decades after the fall of rome.
Britain was a deeper shithole than contemporary Somalia until 1500 ac.
![pic2523[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Wxq9II1.jpg "pic2523[1].jpg")
>>439030
>>439110
>>444665
We are an ex Soviet ally and even made our own AKs, yet it still costs over 500 euro to get a new one legally.
>>438768
This. They're the Africa's Africa, biggest idiots on the continent.
>>438601
Somali here, loyalty to your clan or tribe comes first. Thank fully i come from a respected and feared tribe , no other tribe has fought with us since 17th cent. Love it when people from other tribes have bed time stories saying if you don't sleep the X tribe will come and kill you. My tribe pushed Jihad against Ethiopia
>>446858
>We are an ex Soviet ally
this is why somalia is so fucked
you could have been rich like qatar or singapore but you decided "muh culture" "muh religion" "muh ego" was more important than not having to watch your children grow up in poverty or hear the news that your son was tortured to death by militants
>>438601
There's no boogeyman like the gommies or muslims to scare the general public.
>>441945
Ethiopia was bilad Habesha, somalia was bilad Berbera
>>442905
>>>/pol/
>>445027
im somali, and this is so fcking true
>>445131
this. fck the habeshis , we taking ogaden back
Well, I mean... just look at where it's located. An intensely tribal people caught between Islam and Christianity (and later Colonialism) who later just so happen to live at the crossroads of the energy trade wasn't going to end well.
From little I know of Somali history, things were actually pretty good until the British left. Doing what Brits do best, they played the population against itself to the point that there was no organized way to reconcile the vast difference in wealth disparity and power between the ruling tribes and the outcasts.
>>447515
I'm sure it has nothing to do with Western capitalism fucking seizing their waters and generally fucking them over. Of course its' the soviets and their time traveling machines.
>>438601
Because the N race
>>448342
Somalis are more arab than anything.
>>448384
No we aren't, we are the least mixed population in the horn.
If anything Somali and other horners are the basis of Arabia Felix, Semites are later coastal immigrants whose remnants married into the Cushitic majority forming the Modern Southern Arabian language family.
The tribal people like Mehri show that quite clearly.
>>438601
>a single native population
Isn't Somalia like one of those negroid countries which was invaded by Arabs? Thus giving you blacks, Arabs, and maybe mixes? I understand it's probably majority black but it's not exactly Congo.
>>449421
All your uneducated assumptions are incorrect
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1004393
Though Somali isn't linguistically one language and mutual intelligibility isn't a given.
>>449421
Somalia are unmixed.
>>449429
I'm not talking about linguistics, I'm talking about Race.
And TL;DR for something about Somalis. The first few sentences pretty much confirm my broad statement anyway, regardless of how significant non fully black populations are in Somalia.
>Genetic studies have identified substantial non-African admixture in the Horn of Africa (HOA). In the most recent genomic studies, this non-African ancestry has been attributed to admixture with Middle Eastern populations during the last few thousand years.
>>449471
You didn't read the study, they are stating it's quite contrary with this new data
Way to make yourself look more foolish
>>447515
wtf are you going on about?
>>441698
>India isn't doing so bad
More like after decades of complete irrelevance and economical misery they are FINALLY developping their economy
>>438645
Pro tip: if your regime can't transition between governments without collapsing into civil war, it's not stable
>>449557
>You didn't read the study
>TL;DR
Really?
