Let's discuss martial arts. What's the oldest known form? Which one is probably the most dangerous?
>>435972
Some include poisons. I'd say those are the most dangerous, by merit of being so devious.
>>435972
>Which one is probably the most dangerous?
The one practiced by the better person.
>>435991
Well played.
>>435972
>Let's discuss martial arts. What's the oldest known form?
Skill of fight with a cudgel
>>435991
Oh snap, you win.
>>435983
Are there any that prime themselves on the use of poisons?
Most dangerous? Gun. Gun is superior martial art.
Though >>435991 makes a good point in that skill is almost always the overwhelming factor, but a person with a gun would need to be very inept and up against an extremely practiced unarmed individual.
>>435972
Pipebomb
>>436034
>Gun is superior martial art.
Indeed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mAH_6V5h4c
>>435972
>Which one is probably the most dangerous?
It looks like it would be a match between combined arms warfare, air supremacy bombardment, CAG warfare, and thermonuclear war.
These arts have been widely considered to be the most dangerous martial arts since 1945.
Historically, martial arts are a scam that warriors out of a job sold to civilians to make a living.
Outside of peace-time, it was called "training".
See Japan, all those idle samurais didn't know what to do during the pax nobunaga, so that's when all those unarmed martial arts for civies popped up.
MMA
>>437752
Given that German martial arts masters were part of guilds sanctioned to give qualifications to soldiers for increased pay, and English martial arts students did a kumite style prize fight to graduate, I doubt they were mcdojos despite what George Silver said about rapier trainers.
>>437767
I don't know man. On one hand you make a valid point, on the other I've seen mc instructors giving seminars to the police (even fucking aikidokas), so I imagine the same sort of complacent wankery could have happened in those guilds too.
>>437736
kek
>>437776
Except the Marxbruder, wanting to avoid losing their monopoly and fearing the Federfechters would bring down standards ("Federfechterei" became a synonym for flashy bullshit in many Marxbruder manuals) lobbied for strict regulations on starting a fencing school including the requirement to defeat any challengers in a public match.
If every martial arts instructor had to prove their ability in a series of MMA matches, there probably wouldn't be many mc instructors.
I brought up George Silver, and his story kind of supports your point. He repeatedly defeated rapier trainers who came to England from Spain, France, or Italy, only to find the standard much higher on the continent when he went abroad. It's thought that the masters he fought in England were fairly incompetent and went to England where the Company of Masters didn't have any legal right to enforce a monopoly or standards for instructors.
>>437870
Interesting, thanks.
>>435972
Greco-style wrestling is really useful and certainly dangerous.
>>435972
If the martial art makes assumptions about what people are forbidden to do, for example no kicking, then there is no guarantee that using those techniques outside where those rules don't exist work.
>>437881
>This Senior Rocco came into England about some thirty years past. He taught the noblemen & gentlemen of the court. He caused some of them to wear leaden soles in their shoes, the better to bring to nimbleness of the feet in their fight. He disbursed a great sum of money for the lease of a fair house in Warwick lane, which he called his college, for he thought it great disgrace for him to keep a fence school, he being then thought to be the only famous master of the art of arms in the whole world. He caused to be fairly drawn and set round about his school all the noblemen's and gentlemen's arms that were his scholars, and hanging right under their arms their rapiers, daggers, gloves of mail and gauntlets. Also, he has benches and stools, the room being very large, for gentlemen to sit round about his school to behold his teaching. He taught none commonly under twenty, forty, fifty, or a hundred pounds. And because all things should be very necessary for the noblemen & gentlemen, he had in his school a large square table, with a green carpet, done round with a very broad rich fringe of gold, always standing upon it a very fair Standish covered with crimson velvet, with ink, pens, pen-dust, and sealing wax, and quivers of very excellent fine paper gilded, ready for the noblemen & gentlemen (upon occasion) to write their letters, being then desirous to follow their fight, to send their men to dispatch their business. And to know how the time passed, he had in one corner of his school a clock, with very fair large dial. He had within his school, a room the which was called the privy school, with many weapons therein, where he did teach his scholars his secret fight, after he had perfectly taught them their rules. He was very much beloved in the court.
>>437911
There was one Austin Bagger, a very tall gentleman of his hands, not standing much upon his skill, but carrying the valiant heart of an Englishman, upon a time being merry among his friends, said he would go fight with Signior Rocco, presently went to Signior Rocco his house in the Blackfriers, and called to him in this manner: Signior Rocco, you are thought to be the only cunning man in the world with your weapon, you that takes upon yourself to hit any Englishman with a thrust upon any button, you that takes upon yourself to come over the sea, to teach the valiant noblemen and gentlemen of England to fight, you cowardly fellow, come out of your house if you dare for your life, I am come to fight with thee. Signior Rocco, looking out at a window, perceiving him in the street to stand ready with his sword and buckler, with his two hand sword drawn, with all speed ran into the street, and manfully let fly at Austin Bagger, who most bravely defended himself, and presently closed with him, and struck up his heels, and cut him over the breech, and trod upon him, and most grievously hurt him under his feet. Yet in the end Austin of his good nature gave him his life, and there left him. This was the first and last fight that ever Signior Rocco made, save once at Queen Hith he drew his rapier upon a waterman, where he was thoroughly beaten with oars and stretchers, but the odds of their weapons were as great against his rapier, as was his two hand sword against Austin Bagger's sword and buckler, therefore for that fray he was to be excused.
>>437917
>What is the cause that wisemen in learning or practicing their weapons, are deceived with Italian Fencers.
>There are four causes. The first, their schoolmaster are imperfect. The second is, that whatsoever they teach, is both true & false; true in their demonstrations, according with their force & time in gentle play, & in their actions according with the force & time in rough play or fight, false. For example, there is much difference between these two kinds of fight, as there is between the picture of Sir Beuis of Southhampton and Sir Beuis himself, if he were living. The third, none can judge of the craft but the craftsman, the unskilled, be he never so wise, can not truly judge of his teacher, or skill, the which he learns, being unskilled himself. Lastly, & to confirm for truth all that shall be amiss, not only in this excellent science of defence, but in all other excellent secrets, most commonly the lie bears as good a show of truth, as truth itself.
>>437752
Actually unarmed martial arts were not that common until the late edo period. even most jujutsu schools assumed people would be armed. Unarmed jujutsu rose in popularity with the rise of challenge matches between dojo, in many ways these matches were the forrunners of judo and bjj today.
>>435972
in japan there are a few candidates for the oldest style, depending on how much stock you put in their claims. two with the most solid claims are the katori shinto ryu and kashima shinto ryu, the maniwa nen ryu is also notable
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRfQjj8ltEg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Had9oTYGiTs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oS7Slq_9dw
In general, the oldest schools were kata bujutsu, that is they focused on two man static and dynamic drills, sparing with safety equipment caught on when the wars were over, and strict laws had been put on dueling with live blades. some styles felt that without that real combat experience many schools had decayed.
Still even these schools remained kata based, and it was not the mid 19th century and especially after the abolishment of the shogunate that martial sports such as kendo and judo began to supplant traditional styles. This actually had a lot to do with the drive for nationalization, and a desire for martial arts suitable for mass education
>>437903
what, you mean like boxing?
Cause striking with the hands is useful in a lot of areas, and shouldn't be neglected for the sake of the feet like in Tae Quan Do.
>>437903
It depends. If you have kata for receiving kicks and blows, and practice these in randori, then you're going to have less of a problem.
>>437948
>kata for receiving kicks and blows
you know the only thing I ever came across for that was Sanchin, and that whole thing is basically just breath/muscle control and footwork.
Well I can tell you it's effective, I saw it again in my local SCA fight lead, he always kept his feet in stance, and I know for a fact that it can get your wind back after it gets knocked out of you.
>>437752
Source? For one thing, Nobunaga did not achieve a "Pax" of some sort since he had a breathtaking number of rivals and he was actually fighting in multiple fronts before he was betrayed and killed. Second, if you're talking about the Tokugawa peace, only Samurai were practicing martial arts with each other: not civilians to whom they looked down upon.
Historically: martial arts emerged out of multiple historical & regional reasons. See neighboring Imperial China, where martial arts emerged from:
1) The military
2) The civilian sector, due to:
>Fuckawful proliferation of duelling among scholarly/merchantile gentlemen classes
>Civilians -especially rural ones- were expected by Imperial law to do their own policing. China is quite vast and you can't expect soldiers to police such wide areas outside their garrisons. Hence a weapons and martial arts industry emerged among civilians. Even forming village posses to take down hundred strong bandit rings.
>Criminals themselves had their own martial arts thing going on.
3) Monks of both Taoist and Buddhist inclinations. Being isolated in the wildernesses holed up in temples stocked with food & money, they had to defend themselves from bandits and thieves, thereby practicing martial arts and stocking up on weapons. The extra discipline and cohesion made them quasi-paramilitary.
4) Speaking of paramilitaries: you had also the private military organizations. Of multiple backgrounds
>Ex-Military Officers runs his private ring of warriors and hires themselves out to civilians or local government against bandits/for policing.
>A posse of armed civilians turned permanent, whose leaders- failing to enter government via exams- seek entrance into government service via being noticed for paramilitary deeds such as going to war with or quelling bandits with privately funded armies.
>Bandits and Pirates wanting to go straight (i.e. Zheng Zilong.)
>>437752
>>437963
contd.
5) Finally, there was the Qing Dynasty ban on weapons ownership and practice of martial arts. Which led to all sorts of weird weapons and underground martial arts learning to skirt said ban.
See. Shitloads of multiple factors.
>>435972
>What's the oldest known form?
Boxing and wrestling as developed independently by the various cultures.
They are about as old as running is as a sport.
>>437903
>Besides, there are now in these days no grips, closes, wrestlings, striking with the hilts, daggers, or bucklers, used in fencing schools. Our plowmen will by nature will do these things with great strength & agility. But the schoolmen is altogether unacquainted with these things. He being fast tied to such school-play as he has learned, has lost thereby the benefit of nature, and the plowman is now by nature without art a far better man than he. Therefore in my opinion as long as we bar any manner of play in school, we shall hardly make a good scholar. There is no manner of teaching comparable to the old ancient teaching, that is, first their quarters, then their wards, blows, thrusts, and breaking of thrusts, then their closes and grips, striking with the hilts, daggers, bucklers, wrestlings, striking with the foot or knee in the cods, and all these are safely defended in learning perfectly of the grips. In the wars there is no observation of Stocatas, Imbrocatas, times, nor answers.
>>437958
The judo kata are significantly about blow attacks. Same with akido. They'd be a good start before mixed randori. But obviously outside of Japanese police judo, these are body themed sports.
>What's the oldest known form?
Folk wrestling and some obscure styles of kung fu.
>Which one is probably the most dangerous?
This is /asp/ material, not /his/.
In addition, you're asking the wrong question. No MA is inherently "dangerous". What you ought to be asking is "effective" or "practical".
Pic related: "dangerous" tactical hardcore street defence LARPing.
>Which one is probably the most dangerous?
