Anybody got good videos on hoplite warfare re-enactments? I've heard people argue whether they held the spears overhead (risking hitting the guy in the back in the eye) or underhand (hitting the guy in the back in the dick)
>>434739
It would be impossible for a closed hoplite rank to use their spear underhand. It just is not practical at all.
The argument derives from some people refusing to believe ancient sources on the way hoplites fought: pushing into each other. This is only because historical martial recreationists think it is stupid, and either nobody would die or everybody would die.
Illustrations of hoplite phalanx, including arguably the first, depict overhand use of the spear. Not only that, they even show how the spear was held. Some recreationists dispute this and insist it was held reverse (which is retarded as the video I will link to will demonstrate).
Pic related, Chiggi vase, one of the first red figure pottery examples.
Also, people who've experimented with the idea have discovered you do not hit the guy in back in the eye with overhand.
At this point the only dispute is how exactly they would have used the spear to thrust for the most power.
Issues also include the balance and weight of the spear. So for overarm technique being practical in Phalanx:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZVs97QKH-8
For spear balance demonstration that apparently no reconstructionists have seen or agree with? Never seen it mentioned or seen balance like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgHOHbW9fCA
And for a possible technique they used for actually thrusting overhand:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LaSKE57rZA&list=PLBp7ebiDRbagRbX0Hi6xJ2BwvXb3nhffy&index=9
>>434739
Lindybeige bait thread. Lindybait?
Traditional Greek hoplites used overhead spears.
Alexander (or his father) reformed the Macedonian army to use much longer sarissa spears to form the famous impenetrable phalanx wall.
>>434854
1st,
the spears on those vases could very well symbolize javelins which hoplites carried. on that very same vase they have another spear behind their shield, thought to be their close combat spear
2nd,
Overhand use is unlikely since it's simply not effective from a strength point of view. Pick up a heavy object and hold it overhand for as long as you can. Now do the same for overhand. the triceps muscle isn't nearly as strong as the combined muscles of your biceps, triceps, deltoids and latissimus dorsi.
HOWEVER, Overhand use does not mean Under shield. Take your right arm, stretch it out in a 90 degree angle and then curl up your forearm tight. From this angle you would be able to strike above your shield but still have full use of your entire arm's plethora of muscles, as well as your back.
That video of the greek reenactors they're only at it for a few minutes - which is just about as long as anyone could keep at it like that without a break. But to curl your arm in an overhand use you could keep at it for much longer and with much better precision.
I googled hoplite overhand underhand and this image displays what I'm talking about.
>>434882
Who?
>>434739
It was underhand.
Look up storm of bronze, it's well written, down to precisely how many centimeters long a spear would be, and goes into GREAT detail.
The answer is both, for different purposes and in different contexts. The traditional hoplite formation would likely use overhand, as did most spear formations in history.
>>434854
I realized overhand was more likely the default use when the Iliad made mention of someone holding their spear "ready both to cast or strike", meaning overhand. So it was certainly in use at least some of the time.
Then again, I'm pretty sure the Iliad predates organized hoplite tactics.
>>435882
*phalanx tactics
>>435321
Ah, a better picture of the vase does show other spears.
But you are still ignoring the utter impracticality of underhanded spear use in a phalanx.
Hoplite warfare consisted of pushing your opponent. That isn't in dispute by anybody but arm chair weapons experts like Lindy Beige. Ephialtes defeat of the Spartans is, if nothing else is good enough for sceptics, the ultimate proof of this tactic being used even into the 4th century.
This type of tactic makes underhand use impossible because you have no motion with which to move your arm without knocking into the guy behind you, whether his shield or his face.
Underarm is thus less straining on the user, but also in this context offers virtually no force in the thrust because of the lack of motion or space for 'winding up'.
Overhand, while perhaps weaker in the thrust, is not impractical/impossible in a phalanx. Additionally, the link I posted to ThegnThrand demonstrates one effective technique in achieving high powered thrusts.
>>435882
The Iliad is not representative of any period of Greek history, really. It's an amalgamation of the early Archaic and much earlier Mycenaean culture and society. It mentions hoplite tactics, because they existed when Homer was living.
So the Iliad does not predate hoplite tactics, although the events it chronicles do.
>>436457
No amount of short term practicality makes up for the isolation of the triceps. A hoplite would not be able to wield his spear like that for more than a few minutes. Battles could last an hour or sometimes much longer.
It works for a 4 minute youtube video but try it yourself right now.
The greeks were excellent gymnastics and trained their muscles and knew their strength and weaknesses. They wouldnt ignore this immense handicap.
>>437942
It is not much worse than the pose in your image. Nor do you address the fact that there is no space for underhanded spear use in a hoplite phalanx, or the fact that the 90 degree angle pretty much ensures you only hit shield when you do manage to strike from that position.
The angle afforded from overhand seems crucial to me, as does the increase range of motion.
>>436457
Do you mean Epaminodas at Leuctra?
Because deep formations don't rely on physical pushing to be effective on the attack. It's more the ability to cover ground more quickly while maintaining cohesion, being able to feed more men in to maintain pressure against the enemy line, and the moral effect of seeing a deep and fast moving body coming towards you.
Revolutionary France and the Chinese People's Army used attack columns, and they weren't reliant on pushing
I generally agree with the literalist interpretation on the grounds that how Greeks talked about battle and the kinds of casualties seen does seem like their battles usually came to "bad war"
>>437954
For short term fights, lasting a minute or so you might be right. But any benefits of overhand use are negated by the sheer physical impracticality of it. You cannot muster enough strength in one blow to pierce pretty much anything.
Overhand use like I described has several benefits. But most of all is perhaps that its physically impossible to perform phalanx overhand for more than a few minutes.
All of the shortcomings of overhand use you mentioned can be overcome with drill.
The isolation of the triceps cannot. As i said, its impossible.
>>439119
Fuuck i wrote overhand for everything, but you get the point.
>>440480
I get the point, but disagree based on primary source evidence, and the fact that I don't know of any large scale practical experiments that pit over vs. under in terms of usability.
I don't have an hour to hold a broom stick and flail it around atm but maybe one day I will at least give that a shot, and see if I have to stop after only a few minutes.
Worth noting also that Greek hoplites would have been in very good physical condition for the most part, so perhaps this tricep train, with proper technique, would not have been a game breaker.
>>440500
As someone who lifts almost daily, let me just point out that the overhead tricep extension that these hoplites would practice is something most weightlifters could relate to. The problem is that this movement isolated triceps taking very little support from any other muscle. The result is very quick fatigue.
I trained my triceps this morning, some 14 hours ago, and i'm still not recovered. Just a few minutes of intense stabbing and poking with a spear would be killer and you'd need to rest your arm constantly. I very much doubt hoplite warfare allowed for this type of time out.
I have no doubt that overarm was used when practical but it could not possibly be the default fighting stance of hoplites unless they were just plain out stupid.
It is possible that hoplites fought underarm when their spear was their intended main weapon and then switched to overarm when othismos was ordered, during which very little focus would be on the spears anyway.
>>434854
Very informative videos. Thank you.
>>440597
>It is possible that hoplites fought underarm when their spear was their intended main weapon and then switched to overarm when othismos was ordered, during which very little focus would be on the spears anyway.
I can live with this statement.
>>440615
Youre welcome, but Anon's (>>440597) comments in this thread are worth reading as well even if I don't necessarily agree with them entirely.
>>434739
I've actually heard the front ranks would use underhand and the back ranks would use overhand just for reach purposes.
>>440665
>figures not named
c'mon, ancient potter.... now I have to find the vase to satisfy my curiosity over whose body that is.
