>>433302
Cultural relativism.
They think you white people look ugly and cold.
Honestly I'd prefer it were destroyed.
>>433308
>you
>white
>people
But I'm not white
>>433285
Another aggressively expansionist Abrahamic cult. Has some particularly violent fringe elements.
>>433315
I'd prefer if protestantism never existed but we're going to be disappointed forever
I find it really interesting how it managed to become so prevalent in Central and even Southeast Asia while Nestorianism was left in the dust.
The Quran is the Truth, the hadith is full of fabrications. After the fall of the Caliphate in 1924, Muslims have been preyed upon by heretical sects everywhere and anywhere. This will all change with the rise of the Mahdi, however.
The fact that brown people practice it is a test as to others' racism.
i.e. if you disregard it based solely on the racial origin of the majority of its followers, then you're mentally incapable.
Bad.
>>433285
It's central philosophy is actually quite admirable.
There are a few tenets I disagree with, such as veils, no alcohol, etc. but otherwise it's actually for the most part a religion about self-sufficiency and self-discipline.
Shame it's a religion for brown cunts and white cunts though. Inb4 some faggots who've never seen a Levantine Arab tells me Arabs aren't white
>>433285
Very primal and stringent religion. Sharia Law countries have a modicum of liberty.
>>433341
>Le Dynasty
Hello Reddit
>>433341
The Burqa is cultural bidah (innovation) by Bedouin Arabs. Only modest clothing in public is mandatory, with face veils actually being an affront to the Quran.
Alcohol is cancerous to society, and provides an unhealthy escape from reality.
>>433363
No religion that treats "innovation" as a dirty word could have anything worth listening to.
>>433363
>The Burqa is cultural bidah (innovation) by Bedouin Arabs.
Yes and they culturally impose this on other Muslims. Even fucking Indonesians and Malaysians wear that dumb hijab shit.
>Alcohol is cancerous to society, and provides an unhealthy escape from reality.
That's just your personal unsourced unsupported opinion m8.
>>433368
Linguistically the term means "innovation, novelty, heretical doctrine, heresy".
It refers to trying to add things to the religion. You can do them as long as they're not prohibited, and you don't claim they're mandatory like many uneducated Arabs do.
You'll find that everything that gives Islam a bad name is one of these "innovations", and that they are even sometimes frowned upon in the Quran.
>>433377
>Even fucking Indonesians and Malaysians wear that dumb hijab shit.
Many westerners are out of touch with historical reality. Our ancestors used to wear very similar clothing, with our "new style" only being invented not even 100 years ago.
>That's just your personal unsourced unsupported opinion m8.
It's a valid one.
>>433377
Not him but there a difference between the identity concealing, face-covering all-black Burqa compared to the hair-covering hijab.
Generally speaking most interpretations of Islam require the covering certain parts of the body for both genders and hair specifically for women, but the burqa tends to be more (in)famous for its distinctness.
>>433363
Someday you fuckers are going to try to impose Shariah in America and you're going to get what you all deserve. There isn't a group of people who are capable of taking a higher and less justified moral ground than Muslims.
>Ha! You can't produce a document as perfect as the Quran, so I'm going to Paradise!
No, you'll be cucked eternally in Hell for rejecting the divinity of Christ.
>>433391
>Not him but there a difference between the identity concealing, face-covering all-black Burqa compared to the hair-covering hijab.
Read
>There are a few tenets I disagree with, such as veils
All those you posted are veils.
I don't agree with ANY veils
>>433387
>Linguistically the term means "innovation, novelty, heretical doctrine, heresy".
And God chose to make his final, perfect revelation in a language that has "innovation" and "heresy" as synonyms. Besides, even if you disregard the had it and just look at stuff within the Quran itself, you still get things like Houri thst look super suspect.
>>433387
>You'll find that everything that gives Islam a bad name is one of these "innovations"
Muhammad was a pedophile and a warlord (inb4 you get mad because I didn't call him a statesman or a general), I object to idolizing a man with those qualities more than I object to veiling women.
>>433397
That was literally my only post in this thread m8, calm your tits.
>>433399
>Pedo
Both Mary's were 12 you fucking faggot. Aisha was 16 at the time of her marriage.
>inb4 that Shia Hadith
They're still bootyblasted about an election that happened 2 thousand years ago.
>>433406
It blows my fucking mind that all these Muslim sectarian conflicts are literally the result of a waifu-war between lolicons and Christmas Cakefags.
Another typical Abrahamic religion. Tries to manage and control its adherents' lives to death, and naturally fails miserably at it.
It's no surprise why the Middle East is a chaos filled shithole. If you try to endlessly control every aspect of someone's life, you usually end up with the opposite
>>433394
>My fairy tale is better than yours!
>>433394
The English-speaking internet is not America. I'm European, and don't care about what you think on the matter.
Jesus will most-likely return to break the cross, and once people see this they will convert in droves. There is no compulsion in religion.
>>433397
Men are required to dress modestly too, you know.
>>433398
You contradict yourself with this statement. How could a man of that caliber unite the Arabian peninsula in harmony, and (in your opinion) concoct an ideology that was unassailable by even his contemporaries (who had they greatest motivation to stop Islam). They resorted to baseless ad hominem like you do, in order to maintain the illusion that you're right.
Haven't we grown past
"My imaginary friend is better than yours"
by now?
>>433417
Because it wasn't unassailable. It was quite assailible, but Muhammad's solution was to kill anyone who said so or who satirized him. The mark of someone with a weak argument is that their response to scrutiny is violence. Of course, having a weak argument doesn't mean being unintelligent, and Muhammad was a brilliant propagandist/merchant. He sold his image extremely well.
>>433413
It's far more complicated than that. A group of pagans, Egyptians, and Quraishis that became the Khawarij exacerbated the situation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAfUGTk55ME
>>433429
So a single man coerced thousands of people (many who secretly wanted him dead) into believing him by killing all dissenters?
Meanwhile even doing such a thing went against a major commandment in "his" religion?
If this was true, don't you think he would have gotten killed immediately?
>>433448
No. A single charismatic figure was able to sell a larger-than-life image of himself to a desperate populace, and perpetuated the image through violent acts and intimidation to anyone who might picture it. It happened many times before him, it happened many times afterward, and it will happen in the future.
It's not a sin to kill those "spreading mischief in the land, " and when you change the definition of "mischief" to "proposes an idea separate from mine" it is suddenly not a sin to kill a lot of people.
>>433452
>to a desperate populace
The Arabs were extremely well-set in their ways and if anything were desperate to smother Islam in the cradle. They failed miserably despite vastly outnumbering the Muslims.
It had to be proven to them that Muhammad was elected by God, and it was.
God is not an anthropomorphic man in the sky like you probably picture, but an "immaterial force" that has for some unknown reason lended a piece of "Himself" for our experience and spiritual development. Both you and the Wahhabis share this misconception, but Muhammad most certainly did not.
>>433465
But they were certainly not as well off as surrounding Persian or Roman empires, for example. To the extent that they happy conquered whatever of those two empires the moment they showed a moment of weakness.
Yes yes, Allah is personally moving every atom and electron of whatever you're seeing fall at every microinstant, and it only appears to look like gravity. We've heard the spiel before. Thst doesn't change the whole "mischief" thing allowing for violence against anyone who would puncture Muhammad's carefully crafted image. There is only one kind of person who makes a death penalty for satire.
>>433465
If Allah is real why did he let Israel take the holy lands?
>>433475
>To the extent that they happy conquered whatever of those two empires the moment they showed a moment of weakness.
This is far too simplistic. You must read more on the subject.
>Allah is personally moving every atom and electron of whatever you're seeing fall at every microinstant, and it only appears to look like gravity.
That's not what I said. Allah is the source that maintains our universe, gravity is just one of "His" Creations. This is a Wahhabi interpretation.
>There is only one kind of person who makes a death penalty for satire.
When his uncle Abu Lahab and others kept throwing garbage, dead animals and faeces at his porch in Mecca, and on him while he was walking through town or praying. He didn't react violently, according to historical narration.
>>433478
He has given everyone free-reign to do as they please in order to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Israel will become dominant for a short period of time before getting completely destroyed, and they will have no one to blame but themselves.
>>433492
>He didn't react violently, according to historical narration.
How peaceful. Luckily, all the peaceful actions are abrogated by his later violent actions both in terms of how the Muslim religion deals with satire and criticism and how we are to view Muhammad's action as a whole. In this case, it seems that his "peace" wasn't out of any actual ideological adherence to it, but simply as a way to survive as he consolidated power. And the men he did, he used that power to enact his will with as much violence as it pleased him to.
>>433498
He was protected by his other uncles at that time, and could have easily reacted violently had he desired. Abrogation is a myth propagated by evangelists, as the verses of the Quran are in complete harmony with themselves.
The commandment in terms of satire is to just ignore it, as Muhammad did. That is historical fact.
No matter what evidences are provided, you still won't believe. I hope one day you will stop projecting your own desires onto others, and look at the Quran as objectively as you can.
>>433509
>as the verses of the Quran are in complete harmony with themselves.
>The commandment in terms of satire is to just ignore it, as Muhammad did. That is historical fact.
Looks like somebody has to "read more on the subject."
The word "objective" does not mean "with biases that agree with mine." It means you read what the thing says. Verses like "don't kill, unless they happen to be spreading mischief or doing any of these other things thst make it totally okay to kill them" are very clear.
>>433492
So does this mean you believe that Islamic nations will get a hold of nuclear weapons? Because this is the only way Israel would ever go down is with being nuked.
Which means I suppose that you are ok with Islamic nations nuking other nations.
Speaking of which... How do you feel about apostasy?
So is it death or is Quaran not clear on that?
>>433516
>Islamic nations will get a hold of nuclear weapons
They already have nukes you moron
>>433516
Well, death for apostasy comes from the Hadith, not he Quran
>>433520
Pakistan is quasi Islam IMO.
But either way in your belief will Israel be defeated with nuclear weapons?
>>433522
>They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them;
4:89-4:90
>>433516
There is the opinion that Muslims, Orthodox Christians, and Orthodox Jews will ally with each other after a devastating war and will take the fight to the Zionists and their allies under the leadership of the Mahdi.
You put a lot of words in my mouth there. I personally think nuclear weapons are a travesty.
Read below:
>>433530
i.e. if an apostate takes up arms against Muslims then you can kill them
Otherwise you can't touch them. I don't see how this isn't fair.
>>433525
Pakistan is as Islamic as they come.
Also I honestly don't give a shit what happens to Israel or Palestinians.
>>433530
>Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.
Actual 4:90
Only applies if they are at war with you, which seems logical.
>>433532
Where does it mention the apostate taking up arms? All it says is that if they turn renegade from the way of Allah they ought to be killed.
>>433534
Well if you read the very next verse...
The one after that also reinforces that.
>You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people. Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it. So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization
>So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace
4:91
>>433308
>white people look ugly
If you go there and aren't too ugly everyone will say you look like a movie star.
You just having wishful thinking now.
There might be a lot of anti-western sentiment amongst the radicals, but plenty of moderates out there still like the west.
>>433536
>find others
So not the apostates from the previous verse. Okay, nice to know.
>if they do not withdraw
Oh, so you don't have to kill apostates, just if you can't force exile on them. Cool, I guess I was a little too harsh.
>>433542
The Quran has a ton of weird shit in it, but the stuff on apostasy isn't as bad as people make it out to be.
There are Quranic verses that Muhammad used to justify literally cucking his own adopted son, because he saw his wife naked. IMO that is much more fucked up for someone preaching morality.
>>433548
>There are Quranic verses that Muhammad used to justify literally cucking his own adopted son, because he saw his wife naked.
No there isn't. Where did you find this?
[Quran 4:23] Prohibited for you (in marriage) are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, the sisters of your fathers, the sisters of your mothers, the daughters of your brother, the daughters of your sister, your nursing mothers, the girls who nursed from the same woman as you, the mothers of your wives, the daughters of your wives with whom you have consummated the marriage - if the marriage has not been consummated, you may marry the daughter. Also prohibited for you are the women who were married to your genetic sons. Also, you shall not be married to two sisters at the same time - but do not break up existing marriages. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
>semitic monotheistic religion
>good
>>433548
I guess the reason why the apostasy and satire stuff become such a lightning rod in western cultures is because freedom of religion and freedom of expression are big deala, even if most countries aren't as overt about it as some Americans. Without those cultural biases there are probably things that are actually way stranger, but they don't stick in people's craw so much as honour killings for apostate daughters or riots/murders over Rushdie writing a dumb book.
>>433516
>Muh Nukes
Nukes are strategic weapons, not tactical. If Hitler had nukes he'd not have used them. He had bio missles that could strike New York and he didn't use them because the costs outweighed any potential gains.
>>433551
>And [remember, O Muhammad], when you said to the one on whom Allah bestowed favor and you bestowed favor, "Keep your wife and fear Allah," while you concealed within yourself that which Allah is to disclose. And you feared the people, while Allah has more right that you fear Him. So when Zayd had no longer any need for her, We married her to you in order that there not be upon the believers any discomfort concerning the wives of their adopted sons when they no longer have need of them. And ever is the command of Allah accomplished.
Anon, you need to brush up on Zayd bin Haritha and Zainab. It's REALLY obvious he just wanted that pussy badly.
>>433554
It's a lightning rod simply because the media spins it constantly. Practically no one cared until 9/11.
Islam promises freedom of religion and freedom of expression, except intentional hate-speech.
Honour killings have nothing to do with Islam, they're haram vestiges of pre-Islamic culture.
Writing a book calling Islam satanic is pretty serious.
>>433561
>33:37
Forgot to include
>>433363
>burqa is innovation of the bedouin
>liberals in my country say it was appropriated from byzantine
Why the fuck people saying contradictory things about hijab?
>>433561
Why is it always about Sex with you retards? He wanted to establish a legal precedent banning adoption and son theft as inherently wrong. That's the easiest possible way to show that it isn't legitimately binding
>>433285
I believe that it's all real, although not in the way you might think. I believe that Muhammad was visited by an angel, but that angel was named Lucifer and not Gabriel. Muhammad praised Hermes Trismegistus, which was the very same Thoth demon that started the Egyptian religion by imparting unto them the practices of ceremonial black magic. It was these same practices that was carried with the Hebrews out of Egypt alongside (but opposed to) Yahwehism. These practices were always what they would fall back on in times of apostasy from the religion of Yahweh. The philosophies and practices of Thoth surfaced in Talmudic Judaism (also given through angelic revelation) as well as more illuminated philosophy systems like Kabbalism and Hermeticism.
So Muhammad praised Thoth by his Greek name and incorporated alchemy and other Thothist philosophical constructs into Islam. It is nothing more than the Arian heresy rebooted with an Arabic flavor.
>>433574
Wtf?
>Evangelicals so bootyblasted they went insane
It had to happen eventually
>>433566
>Practically no one cared until 9/11.
And yet the Satanic Verses came out in 1988. I'm sure the Japanese translator would disagree with your assessment that nobody cared, but unfortunately he was killed as a result of his involvement with the book. Though it's probably his fault, he was spreading mischief, after all.
>Writing a book calling Islam satanic is pretty serious.
It actually isn't serious in the slightest, given how much Christianity is insulted in the same countries. I don't think anyone was murdered over Life of Brian for example. And the book doesn't call Islam Satanic. It relates the story of the three "blessed birds of heaven" and the retraction of those verses, and is explicitly the nightmare of a man in the process of going crazy.
>>433568
Because they're cringing dhimmi cowards who are trying to reconcile their hard left feminism with way women are actually treated in Islam?
>>433574
>Muhammad praised Hermes Trismegistus
>>433578
Christians actually viewed Muslims as heretics for some time, not as another religion entirely. Idea of Muhammad being influenced by devil is an old one, and some mainstream churches still support this view.
>>433554
Islam (and early Christianity for that matter) grew so fast because it appeals to those in the lowest rungs of society. These people tend to be the least educated and most zealous, and as such very easy to control by people. Dumb people do crazy shit.
>>433571
Muhammad accidentally saw Zayd's wife naked. When Zainab told Zayd, he went to him and said he would divorce her so that she would be free to marry him.
Only, it was a pretty huge taboo to marry your son's ex-wife. So then he got the revelation of this verse (33:5):
>Call them by [the names of] their fathers; it is more just in the sight of Allah . But if you do not know their fathers - then they are [still] your brothers in religion and those entrusted to you. And there is no blame upon you for that in which you have erred but [only for] what your hearts intended. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.
Zayd then divorced Zainab (because he knew what was coming), and lo and behold the revelation of 33:37 happened the day after the divorce. Read into that what you will.
>>433602
That whole timeline is wrong mate
>>433597
>implying he didn't
http://www.balaams-ass.com/alhaj/append-9.htm
>>433614
>http://www.balaams-ass.com/alhaj/append-9.htm
I've read this before.
The fact that it claims that Prophet Idris was Osiris of Egypt is hilariously inaccurate, not to mention that every verse is mistranslated.
Keep telling yourself that you aren't the pagan, Cross worshipper.
>>433591
>dhimmi cowards
They're still nominally muslim (I forgot to mention I'm muslim in muslim majority non-arab country).
In the conservative turn of 2000s the liberals started their campaign against hijab by saying it was never mandatory until umayyad era. The Umayyad take it from byzantine they said.
>>433626
At least Christians worship a man they think is God. Muslims worship a man who they acknowledge was a man.
Oh, I'm sorry, definitely don't worship. Treating the name with reverence and trying to kill a teacher for naming a stuffed cartoon pig after one of her students is clearly not the signs of worship.
>>433285
>praying in FRONT of a mosque
what heresy is this?
>>433627
The heasscarf is like the jinn, in thst they were aspects of pre-Islamic pagan Arab culture that Muhammad reused in Islam to help facillitate conversion. He made it an official religious thing, rather than a general cultural practice.
That's part of the reason the description itself is a bit vague in the scripture, because it was assumed his audience would know exactly what he was talking about.
Churchill summed it up pretty well.
>>433630
An abstract concept such as God (Allah) seems to be beyond your scope.
Why are you so materialistic?
Some sects of "Sunnis" do that. It borders on worship, yes, but you have to realise that Muhammad explicitly did not want himself to be worshipped; so much so that he forbade depicting him as the Christians depicted Prophet Jesus.
>>433644
>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11314580/Sir-Winston-Churchill-s-family-feared-he-might-convert-to-Islam.html
>: “His views of Islamic people and culture were an often paradoxical and complex combination of imperialist perceptions composed of typical orientalist ideals fused with the respect, understanding and magnanimity he had gained from his experiences in his early military career, creating a perspective that was uniquely Churchillian.”
>>433643
Jews moved into the area because the final prophet was promised to be born in Arabia, in the "valley of Bakka", which was the colloquial name for the area surrounding Mecca.
The rabbi of Medina converted to Islam after having a private debate with Muhammad.
>>433661
What about China. They do no put up with Islam's crap. They will be the dominant world power in 20 years.
>>433662
>Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities - but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world.
That sounds like a man jumping at the chance to Submit.
>>433338
But the mahdi is only mentioned in hadith
>>433492
>This is a Wahhabi interpretation.
>doesn't know al Ghazali
>>433665
Islam was welcomed into China with open arms, and Muslims were highly respected until Mao came to power. Prior to Mao, many Chinese Muslims occupied high positions in society.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTrU-2Xiaio
I'm not sure if monotheistic religions are actually boring, or if they only seem that way because they're the norm. But, seriously? All the pagan deities to choose between, and we collectively plumped for the "absolute obedience to one God" option?
>>433681
Yes but Muslims are being ethnically cleansed now in China. The past does not matter. What matters it Chinese hegemony. Your Caliphate will not stand up to the Chinese super power of 2050.
There will be no second coming.
The future will be led by atheists.
>>433663
>The rabbi of Medina converted to Islam after having a private debate with Muhammad.
Good thing it was private, or else we might know exactly how convincing the argument was. I imagine it went smelting like "there is no compulsion in religion, but as a side note have you ever wondered how sharp a sword is? Want to find out?"
>>433681
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungan_Revolt_(1862%E2%80%9377)
Let's forget that one time that Muslims went full durka durka and tried to establish an Islamic caliphate in China huh
>>433685
The esoteric versions of these religions are far more interesting than any paganism. Look up Kabbalah, Rosicrucianism, Sufism.
>>433681
>never talked to a Chinese person.jpeg
inb4 THE HUI THE HUI
The Hui are most Han Chinese who either converted to Islam or they are Muslims who have partial Han Chinese ancestry.
So they are Chinese FIRST AND FOREMOST
>>433689
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungan_Revolt_(1862%E2%80%9377)
I like how the Chinese handled the revolt:
>Aftermath
>Punishment
>Yaqub Beg and his son Ishana's corpses >were "burned to cinders" in full public view. >This angered the population in Kashgar, but >Qing troops quashed a rebellious plot by >Hakim Khan.[70] Surviving members of >Yaqub Beg's family included his four sons, >four grandchildren (two grandsons and two >granddaughters), and four wives. They either >died in prison in Lanzhou, Gansu or were >killed by the Qing government. His sons Yima >Kuli, K'ati Kuli, Maiti Kuli, and grandson Aisan >Ahung were the only survivors alive in 1879. >They were all underage children at that time. >They were put on trial and sentenced to an >agonizing death if they were found to be >complicit in their father's rebellious "sedition". >If they were innocent, they were to be >sentenced to castration and servitude as >eunuch slaves to the Qing troops. >Afterwards, when they reached the age of 11 >years old, they would be handed over to the >Imperial Household to be executed or >castrated.[71][72][73] In 1879, it was >confirmed that the sentence of castration was >carried out, Yaqub Beg's son and grandsons >were castrated by the Chinese court in 1879 >and turned into eunuchs to work in the >Imperial Palace.[74]
>>433686
"My" Caliphate?
Daesh is going to get wrecked just as hard as militant atheists will.
>>433688
And then half of the Jews converted, presumably because they had actually studied the prophecies and weren't racist.
>>433689
If you read the article, you'll find that the Han in the area started the war over an unpaid debt.
But Muslims are always to blame for everything, right?
>>433692
That's how Islam works. You're not supposed to become an Arab like CNN told you.
>>433690
>far more interesting than any paganism
Paganism is inherently more interesting because there are millions of gods, each with their own myths which allows all kinds of different stories to be told.
Monotheism requires all the stories fit into one singular narrative which severely limits monotheist mythologies.
>>433705
>That's how Islam works. You're not supposed to become an Arab like CNN told you.
No you retard. Most Hui are not even Muslim these days.
>>433705
>And then half of the Jews converted, presumably because they had actually studied the prophecies and weren't racist.
Presumably because if they did not, they would be killed (or exiled, as pointed out in >>433536.)
And it's Muhammed personally I dislike, not any race in general. Besides, for someone who seems to have such a problem with "Arabs" I don't think you have any space to call other people racist.
>>433705
>If you read the article, you'll find that the Han in the area started the war over an unpaid debt.
You didn't read the article at all did you?
> In the 18th century several prominent Muslim clerics from Gansu studied in Mecca and Yemen under Naqshbandi Sufi teachers. Two different forms of Sufism were brought back to northwest China by two charismatic Hui sheikhs: Khafiya (also spelled Khafiyya or Khufiyah; 虎夫耶; Hǔfūyē), associated with Ma Laichi (1681–1766), and the more radical Jahriyya (also spelled Jahriya, Jahariyya, Jahariyah, etc.; 哲赫林耶; Zhéhèlínyē or 哲合忍耶; Zhéhérěnyē), founded by Ma Mingxin (1719?-1781). These coexisted with the more traditional, non-Sufi Sunni practices, centered around local mosques and known as gedimu (qadim, 格底目 or 格迪目). The Khafiya school and non-Sufi gedimu tradition—both tolerated by Qing authorities—were referred to as "Old Teaching" (老教; lǎo jiào), while Jahriya, viewed by authorities as suspect, became known as the "New Teaching" (新教; xīn jiào).
>Disagreements between adherents of Khafiya and Jahriya, as well as perceived mismanagement, corruption and the anti-Sufi attitudes of Qing officials, resulted in uprisings by Hui and Salar followers of the New Teaching in 1781 and 1783, but these were promptly suppressed. Hostilities between different groups of Sufis contributed to the violent atmosphere before the Dungan revolt between 1862 and 1877.[13]
>>433492
>Allah is the source that maintains our universe, gravity is just one of "His" Creations.
>This is a Wahhabi interpretation.
You fucker, that's Ghazali's thought. Wahhaite frown on it as much as any other kalam.
>>433717
problem is, if it werent for some religion to become a catalist for problems, in those situation people would have rallied around stuff like linguistics or ethnic origin or some philosophic dissagrement or fucking sports club memberships
it does not matter, islam might be somewhat more problematic in certain respects than most other major religions, thats clear and self-evident and talking about problems in muslim logic makes sense, but to ever blame a religion as such for a event is kinda silly, its like saying that the meaning of a sentence changes depending on the alphabet used
take for example burning people in christian cultures
people take these as proof of some fault in christianity, but these are almost without exeption customs inherited from pre-christian periods, simply a superstitious way of dealing with imaginary threats and inter-population friction, or in other words, its the human population itself (and/or the political system) that needs to burn people, the religion just invents a reason corresponding to currently established worldview
>>433627
>muslim majority non-arab country
>speaks English fluently
I was going somewhere with this, but that could be a lot of countries these days, sadly enough.
For those guys bringing up the marriage of the Prophet (pbuh) to Zainab (ra):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbaorsGGFio
Yes, I know it's longer than an hour but it's worth it hearing it from a scholar's mouth.
>>433341
White is more than just a skin color, Ahmed. I know your tiny little Turkish brain has a hard time comprehending this.
>>433394
Penal codes are only 1% of sharia. It refers to the entirety of Quranic law.
>>433636
Taj Mahal, a tomb and not a mosque.
Cult made of enemies of mankind. Muslims ain't human.
They need another Umayyad period.
Currently they don't have a unifying force which is why so many dangerous fringe groups can influence so many people. Islam needs another period of people in power who don't care about the religion half as much as they care about getting drunk, getting pussy, and getting money.
If you look at the main Christian figures in America right now none of them lead lives that even closely resemble Christ. They just care about influencing people and making bank on book sales and seven figure paychecks from their megachurches. Christianity (and Islam) are only dangerous if they allow their people to follow the religion as individuals. That allows people to get too extreme and fight against those they think aren't pious enough.
Question is, who will be the new Mu'awiya or Yazid?
>>433918
>Wanting people like the slaughterer of Ahlul Bayt in power over the Ummah once again
No way jose, better have another Rashidun period.
>>433843
>bloviating for over an hour about self-serving family legends from a bunch of superstitious nitwits.
Imagine if Muslims actually put their mental energies and scholarship into things that mattered.
>>433923
The ummah is a disgrace to the human race, to be honest, non-family
>>433940
A union that transcends ethnicity, borders and language, ensuring security of the family, personal wealth and life and encourages righteousness, awareness of the Greatest Power and advancement of social justice.
>disgrace
think again akhi in humanity
>>433923
NO!
The last thing the modern day people need is to see a group of leaders actually following their religion the way they should. We're far too cynical for that. There's a reason we've gone so long without a pope like Francis or a president like Lincoln. We are distrustful of people who truly believe in what they preach. We need someone who can actually lead and unify but has some shadiness to what they do. People would be too paranoid with a new Rashidun. You could maybe throw in an Umar II in with the bunch, but you couldn't have a succession of neo-Rashidun caliphs. They would meet the same fate as Jesus, Gandhi, MLK, Lincoln, or the original Rashidun caliphs.
I think a happy medium would be a neo-Umayyad dynasty. More preferable than the splinter groups we have now, more realistic than a neo-Rashidun dynasty.
>>433948
>A union that transcends ethnicity, borders and language
lel, as if.
>must learn Koranic Arabic to be a good muzzie. Not supposed to translate Koranic verses or prayers into local vernaculars.
>Arabs clearly chauvinist and racist
>borders are a modern invention anyway and had zero place in Muslim theology until modern times.
that thing with muhammed and 6 year old aisha puts me off, otherwise it would seem ok
>>433285
It's a fine old religion. But like many other religions, it doesn't play well with others.
>>433948
It doesn't transcend those things, it prevents modern forms of community consciousness that don't pretend Muslims in Morocco and Xinjiang are part of a singular polity.
>>433968
People themselves have grown to be shady. That being said, it would be best for nearly a quarter of humanity to gain competent leadership that will help direct them in a better direction - so long as the fools don't indict them.
>>433285
A tool Arabs use to enforce their will on other peoples.
>>433995
>That being said, it would be best for nearly a quarter of humanity to gain competent leadership that will help direct them in a better direction
So you're waiting on an Islamic Napoleon?
>>433285
Cancer in the modern era. Will be removed over time, like other woo woo.
This recent shit, which is nothing new in the first place is the death throws before it completely loses the heavy power it once held.
>>434008
I actually kek'd
wouldn't mind that to be honest. It'd be interesting to say the least.
>>434016
As soon as a Muslim Napoleon emerged, the civilized nations of the world would glass the Islamic world. It would be a good outcome.
>>433398
I can't say for sure because I don't speak Arabic, but I doubt you do either so that puts us on even footing.
There is always something lost in translation. It's very rare that things have a 1 to 1 translation and it doesn't inherently mean what we refer to as innovation is a dirty word (though it probably is to fundamentalists). The word, no doubt, has all sorts of implications and suggestions based on its context, just like the word 'innovative' does in our language.
Say, for example, you say 'progressive' instead. That word has a lot of baggage at the moment. It suggests something entirely different than innovative even though they generally mean the same thing. Language isn't as simple as creating 1 for 1 parallels between words even when they have similar definitions / translations.
>>434041
But if 'innovation' and 'heresy' are synonyms in the Quran then what you're saying can't apply to Islam
>>434029
Depends on the nature of him. If a more secular movement rose in response to the excesses of radicals, the west would hopefully support it unless some bullshit economic / geopolitical pissing match messed something up.
There have historically been plenty of more secular muslim movements. We're just used to hearing about the fundie nutjobs. I feel like with all the bullshit ISIS is pulling there will ideally be a drag for the average person towards "we don't want a theocratic state if this is what it means."
>>434051
I don't think you read what I said. You will find neither the words "innovation" or "heresy" in the Quaran because they're not Arabic fucking words. They have their own words with their own meanings and their own implications. Translations to English are never perfect and that's a pretty good reason why Muslims consider any non-Arabic Quran to be illegitimate. Every time someone does a translation, they need to choose what they think is the 'most correct' linguistic parallel. Sometimes they don't exist at all.
What I'm saying is - and I don't know for sure but neither do you unless you speak arabic - their word for 'innovation' and 'heresy' being synonymous could mean a very nuanced idea of innovation, compared to our broad idea of innovation. As the other anon suggested, it likely means getting creative with religion. You could easily define heresy as 'Religious innovation' after all.
A very dangerous political movement.
>>434059
>You will find neither the words "innovation" or "heresy" in the Quaran because they're not Arabic fucking words. They have their own words with their own meanings and their own implications.
This is the most braindead comment I've seen on 4chan all morning.
>their word for 'innovation' and 'heresy' being synonymous could mean a very nuanced idea of innovation, compared to our broad idea of innovation
You do know how Islam treats heretics and apostates, right?
>>434064
>This is the most braindead comment I've seen on 4chan all morning.
How fucking so? Do you not understand how language works? Do you know any language except English?
>>434067
Do you not understand that two words that are unrelated in one language can have a connection in another? In English, 'junta' and 'regime' have negative connotations that are absent in Spanish and French.
>>434090
That's exactly what I'm trying to tell you. Words have different suggestions, and the arabic word that makes "innovation" and "heresy." If you realize that literally the same word can have different meanings and implications in different cultures, what do you think can happen with different words that have been translated by some guy?
"Innovation" has a really fucking nuanced and in-built idea to us based on the history of our language and culture (consider that it comes from a latin root for "renew" and that it arose in the renaissance, IE 'rebirth', and that gives a pretty big suggestion that innovation once meant 'bring in 'new' things from our glorious past').
Their words will have implications in Arabic as well. Translating ideas is not as simple as saying "this word = this word." or "this concept = this concept". This only works when you do things like "what's your word for dog?" and you point at a dog. You can't do that with "what's your word for freedom?" "what's your word for justice?" "what's your word for innovation?" They're ideas, there is no universal definition for any of those things. You can sometimes find parallels, but they'll have different baggage associated with them and won't be identical by any means.
>>434111
You're not worth discussing this with. You realize that Muslims treat the Quran as the revealed Word of the Absolute Being, right? They don't see Allah's Justice as a mere concept, they see it as a metaphysical reality, rigidly designated by the terminology used in the Quran. There's a reason so many Islamic scholars rejected all concepts of reason.
>>434123
Oh for crying out fucking loud are you intentionally trying to miss argument point now?
Let's both agree to stop this conversation because this is getting retarded. I have a feeling you're not even reading my posts and just shitting out the answer you planned the second after you posted your last one.
>>433285
the most logical movement of it is qutbism
unfortunately this is a bad thing
Needs to be brought back to reality like the Christians were during the enlightenment.
That part of the world needs to stop being so shit (overall) and start pulling the weight those places are capable of carrying, as far as human advancment is concerned.
Its a shame a lot of islamic nations are not secular, alot of the problems of that region are caused by social and economic factors but people who point that out seem to do so in order to not focus on the harm caused by Islam in its modern state.
Middle Eastern states need to push edcuation.
>>433285
shit religion
unsubscribed and never looked back, considering officially converting to something else for literally no other reason than a big FUCK YOU
>>433285
Furthermore, I believe Islam must be destroyed.
>>433387
>mantilla
Freaking beautiful.
>>433406
>Mary was 12
14 actually, and EVER VIRGIN, NEVER TOUCHED BY MAN.
Aisha was raped at 9 by a conquering shithead.
>People defending a group of people who like sharia law
And I thought the extremely defensive christians were bad.
>>433665
>They do no put up with Islam's crap
They don't put up with aything that threatens Han hegemony.
>They will be the dominant world power in 20 years.
>implying this will be a good thing
Chinese poster detected.
>>433308
>They think you white people look ugly and cold.
Which doesnt prevent them from immigrating to our superior countries
>>434222
>considering officially converting to something else for literally no other reason than a big FUCK YOU
>converting to a religion just to spite others
Future_Deus_Vult_poster.jpg
Embrace Atheism brother.
>>434247
You don't even know what Sharia law is.
>>434222
Your family are probably not doing it right.
I'd refer you to the Quran, but you probably already promised yourself that you'd never read it.
>>433712
Don't act so butthurt faggot islam is an religion like any other and every muslim people has altered it a little bit suit their lifestyles so not everyone becomes arab when they convert.
>>433853
/pol/ fuck off this board is for historic discussion not about your made up delusions
>>433568
Because thousands of ancient and not so ancient cultures related or not with islam covered and cover their women's heads. This makes it easier to pass the hot potato of veil to others. Something that is desirable for some because the covering of women has been adopted as a flag for the demonization of islam.
>>433285
As a person born atheist/agnostic, but strongly believes in a God now, it doesn't look worst or better than christianity for me. It's just more alien because it doesn't belong to our tradition.
>>434055
>will ideally be a drag for the average person towards "we don't want a theocratic state if this is what it means."
This is dangerous. It's exactly what Daesh is designed to do. Hassan Nasrallah explains it perfectly in this short lecture.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waQGmNzG9q0
>>433285
Authoritarian expansionist religion. Nothing wrong with people willingly adhering to it in their homes and places of worship, but trying to let its morals influence culture, political policy and law? Fucking disgusting.
>>434305
Needs:
>Sharia is compatible with human rights
>You don't speak Arabic
>The Ayat you quoted was abrogated
>You didn't read the Hadith
>Jihad is exclusively spiritual
>>433285
It's interesting. The core of Islam - submission to god, regular prayer, etc. - is good stuff. All the extra stuff tacked on 150 years later I don't really care for.
Muhammad himself I think is a very, very interesting person. People who hate Islam want to see him as a bloodthirsty warlord, and that's not right - you can't unite the Arabic tribes without political genius. And Islam apologists want to portray him as a guy who just wanted to help the poor and oppressed of his time, and that's not right either - ask the Banu Qurayza.
I think he was a political and military genius born into a violent tribal society who preached a message of radical monotheism that was probably much more apocalyptic than most Muslims want to admit and formed a new tribe based not on blood ties, but on religion, and was willing to engage in tribal warfare of the normal kind for that time and age. I think Islam still keeps some of those tribal elements. In the era of Muhammad the tribe was politics, but it doesn't have to be today.
Years after he died it was decided to have a focus on the personhood of Muhammad that I honestly find to be very, very strange - Muslims treat their prophet with more respect than Christians treat Jesus, who they believe is literally God. Clearly one of the two is doing it wrong. Islamic jurisprudence, as it developed, is a self-perpetuating system that serves to keep certain groups (men, particularly) in power. Quite frankly I think that even the so-called "strong" hadith are much, much weaker than they want to believe. I'm not suggesting that full Qur'anism is the way to go (and I'm not Muslim anyway so they don't give a fuck what I have to say).
>>433981
she was most likely between 14 and 18, mate.
Islam is the edgy retcon of Christianism.
It's good that it also insists on charity, forgiveness, the spiritual and mental battle to be morally good and faithful, etc. but it's full of bullshit like
>you can beat your wife
>alcohol is absolutely evil (not open to interpretation)
>homosexuality is absolutely evil (not open to interpretation)
>anyone who's not a believer WILL go to hell, as not believing in Allah and His prophet automatically make them morally wicked
>push to spread Islam, which also means making more people follow God's laws, meaning all the rules in the Quran are supposed to apply universally, so you don't have the "it's just for that particular group of people" like for the Torah
>Muhammad not following the very fucking things he gets from God
>accepts Jesus but retcons many things he said and did
>>434441
If the Quran is the direct word of God, shouldn't it be enough? The only reason for Hadiths to be taken seriously is to try to follow in Muhammad's footsteps, what's with him being a near-perfect person.
I'm not a Muslim but the idolization of Muhammad pisses me off.
>>434477
Theoretically, the hadith and sharia law are there to promote the "right" interpretation of the Quran, rather than allowing believers to do it themselves. It's a bit like Catholics and their Sacred Tradition "illuminating" scripture in intent, though the execution is another story,
>>434477
>>434441
Friends, I am a muslim and I agree with much of this. The very fact that hadith are literally hear-say weakens a lot of it for me.
My biggest argument against following them blindly lies in the intention of Allah.
Had he wanted to make certain laws or habits perpetual, it would have been in the Eternal Qur'an.
The fact that he had a temporal, mortal servant meant that his habits and his attitudes were supposed to be seen in his temporal context, which can then be extrapolated from.
I.e.: Muhammad(SAW) gives women more rights in his time, we should continue this according to our time. Muhammad(SAW) buys and frees slaves in his time, we need to continue working on human rights in all aspects of the world, not just slavery.
I personally think Muhammad(SAW) was a great prophet and man, and the Hadith shed a lot of light on his attitudes and ideas which, in context, are often admirable, but I fear a lot of brothers and sisters have fallen to idolatry.
I also don't like the Islam=Arabism attitude.
>>433285
A blatantly false cult started by an illiterate sex crazed bandit king warlord with a deep seated hatred of those who don't listen to him (especially women) from being heavily abused in childhood.
>>434505
created one of the largest empire, by uniting people under God's own word.
>>434534
>created one of the largest empire
>one of
Is one of the epithets for Allah "the Underachiever"? The "Almost-#1?" If you're going to use the extensiveness of an ideology as evidence for its validity, pick the one that is actually the most extensive.
>>434492
There is also the fact that many verses in the Quran are clearly influenced by historical context (such as those referring to warfare done by Muslim soldiers and talking specifically to those who survived). I'm not done reading the book but I have a feeling it's not supposed to be able to fit all and any context regardless of the era.
By that, I am referring to things like "don't even have any non-muslim as friends because they are wicked and/or twist their original religion to stray it away from god" and "there are some good people among them but whatever". That is obviously linked to the historical and religious context (although things like "association is worse than murder" do count regardless of era).
I'd say one thing that really killed Islam is the absurd idolization of Muhammad and the Quran itself, to the point Muhammad is basically Jesus 2.0 and the Quran, because it is the direct word of God, is to be followed to the word verse by verse regardless of context or meaning of said verse.
I'm not a Muslim but violent verses are the least of Islam's problem - what is causing its downfall is the politicization and absurd idolization of the prophet and the book itself. I say absurd because reasonable idolization is good.
I'm also not saying all Muslims live Islam this way, but it definitely is a plague for it.
>>434555
>Is one of the epithets for Allah "the Underachiever"? The "Almost-#1?"
Holy shit, has anyone ever thought of making a story in which God is really just a socially awkward, kind of clumsy but nice guy who didn't really know how to express himself so he tried a bunch of different ways, accidentally spawning every religion and cult out there?
>>433686
They're not, you fucking retard.
Go read up on Hui Muslims. They're ethnically the same as Hans, but are still recognized as a complete different ethnic group by the Chinese government and allowed to practise their religion.
>>433540
>If you go there and aren't too ugly everyone will say you look like a movie star.
Just because you all look the same, not necessarily a compliment " oh hey you look more like the guy in the tv than the people i usually see "
You are having the wishful thinking
>>433285
can't say that i'm a fan
>>433525
No one likes Pakistan or Pakistanis in the world, (except Saudis, and who gives a flying fuck what they think) but they are most definitely Muslim.
Saying they aren't is just as bad as Wahhabis who use takfir against anyone they disagree with even in the slightest.
>>434454
proof?
http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/062-sbt.php#007.062.064
>that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
>>433604
Go on then, correct him
>>434441
>>434477
>>434492
I'm also a Muslim and this is viewpoint also.
Hadith were mainly concocted by whoever could pay the most. They're literally conjecture made hundreds of years after the events supposedly took place.
Some are correct, most are wrong.
>>434565
>I'd say one thing that really killed Islam is the absurd idolization of Muhammad and the Quran itself, to the point Muhammad is basically Jesus 2.0 and the Quran, because it is the direct word of God, is to be followed to the word verse by verse regardless of context or meaning of said verse.
This only came about in the Wahhabi sect in the early 19th century and then found its way into Sunni culture. It's truly a shame really, but it's prophesised that this will be rectified.
The fact that many Sunnis take hadith above the Quran is also very disheartening, as the hadith were easily toyed with by the rich and influential (such as the Umayyads), while the Quran by its very nature could not be altered.
>Holy shit, has anyone ever thought of making a story in which God is really just a socially awkward, kind of clumsy but nice guy who didn't really know how to express himself so he tried a bunch of different ways, accidentally spawning every religion and cult out there?
Anthropomorphising God is terrible, and is one of the worst things anyone can do when trying to understand Islam.
>>434671
Bukhari was born 178 years after Muhammad died.
It's almost like a millenial "tracking down" someone who knew someone who knew someone who knew someone who knew someone who knew someone who knew someone who knew someone who knew who said that they heard someone who said that they heard Napoleon say "Such and such a thing" if there were no vivid historical records for Napoleon at the time, then taking it as 100% truth due to "the character of the people that transmitted it" regardless as to whether you even knew they existed.
It's gossip and it holds no water. Only idiots believe it.
>>433689
>A chaotic affair, it often involved diverse warring bands and military leaders with no common cause or a single specific goal. A common misconception is that the revolt was directed against the Qing dynasty, but no evidence shows that the rebels intended to attack the capital, Beijing, or to overthrow the entire Qing government.
>>434652
Turks love them, it's about being similar situations in similar eras: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan%E2%80%93Turkey_relations
>>434776
Anti-Muslims will twist anything in order to perpetuate their fallacious reasoning that Islam is intended to kill all non-Muslims.
Just like Daesh.
>>433387
A sip of alcohol (i.e. beer) with dinner does not provide an unhealthy escape from reality.
Mind-altering substances are not typically about about escaping reality, but augmenting it.
>>434343
>was prophesised by Muhammad.
Every Semitic witch-doctor/sage/shaman was also a 'prophet', Mohammad is no different.
>>434756
>TAQQIYA TAQQIYA TAQQIYA!
>wanting a religion from countries that are somehow more backwards than China in terms of human rights
>>434756
what other sources are there besides bukhari
>>434932
? Are you retarded?
>>433630
>a man
>>435252
No, are you?
>>435171
I think it's less the fault of Islam and more the fault of imperialism and interference from the West. If the United States and Russia stopped arming opposing forces then maybe peace would emerge eventually.
Also, all the Western countries have been bombing the shit out of them. That's probably not helping.
>>433285
NUKE EM.
>>435293
lel. You're on history bud, don't try that ultra-lib bullshit here. The middle east was doing great at butchering neighbours before the US or Russia ever got involved. US-Russia regional interference is small potatoes compared to KSA-Iran regional interference.
A dangerous political ideology. Coming from a region which was ruled by them for centuries, I find it hard to see it in sympathetic light.
Also, marrying a 9 year old was legal in Balkans, for Muslims, even in 1930's. So "no one believes Bukhari" is a shit argument.
>>434306
>muh gr. 3
Outdated.
>>433391
>tfw you think hijabs are actually kind of cute
They just look like scarves :)
Why did something as creative and imaginative as the 1001 Nights come out of a culture that seems so obsessed with glorifying religion exclusively and disregarding all else? Was it just the Persian influence, who could balance fantasy and practical reality? The effect of 1001 Nights on Western literature is probably just behind Homer, Shakespeare and Cervantes in terms of importance. You can see its direct influence on The Canturbury Tales, for example. So why did the culture that created it regard it as so worthless?
>>437935
>1001 Nights
Original story came from India, then absorbed by Persian culture. Original story adaptation is still popular in Bali.
>>434305
>you didn't read the Quran
A legit complain, i forgot to count all those /pol/lacks who obviously didn't read the thing and keep reposting the same bullshit they heard from other people
Churchill had a good quote, not gonna post it though. I agree very much with what he said, though.
