What was al-Andalus like?
The Umayyads wanted to be seen as intellectual rivals to the Abbasids, and Cordoba had libraries and educational institutions to rival Baghdad.
Many contributions were made in the fields of medicine (the field of surgery in particular), architecture, art, philosophy (Averroes, Abu al Wahid ibn Ruchd )
Christians who were executed deliberately courted martyrdom by publicly declaiming against Islam inside mosques and insulting Muhammad.
>>415523
doesn't get rid of the fact that they had to go though
>>415531
Why?
>>415523
>Christians who were executed deliberately courted martyrdom by publicly declaiming against Islam inside mosques and insulting Muhammad.
Nice propaganda line Ahmed
>>415491
Reminder that the Jews conspired to allow the Muslims to conquer
>>415573
Nah, this actually happened.
Anyways, the other anon as usual puts his look into the Umayyads of Cordoba, and not the barbaric almohades and almoravids who were african zealots represive even against their fellow andalusi muslims, always more relaxed in their following of Islam.
The Ummayyad's enbodied the high point of Arab culture and society so Cordoba was kind of their Swan song.
>>415491
Pretty based because they were old Muslims, not modern nutjobs.
They brought irrigation to Granada, which went into permadrought once they were kicked out and irrigation lines weren't maintained. They were also pretty religiously tolerant, Granada had Christian, Jewish and Muslim quarters
>>415491
Based.
>>415573
>implying ass-devastated Christians and their martyrdom complex wouldn't do this
>>415491
Great, until the Almohads turned up.
>>415573
He evidently subscribes to Baxter's claims about the Martyr Movement, that St Eulogius essentially goaded the martyrs on and that Alvaro perpetuated the cult. It's not a particularly accurate portrayal of things and the people who usually propagate such claims typically hold Castro's view of Muslim Iberia in general.
In other words, it's not so much propaganda as it is a deeply simplistic view of the Cordoban martyr phenomenon often asserted for modern political reasons.
>>415753
according to what i've learn in history, this.
they were somehow better overlords than the actual christians at the time... they beaten up the rest of european nations in pretty much anything, they were more developed in social, economic and thinking: they had better physicians, didn't opress the conquered nations, delivered several technological and social advances and they fought better since they had cohesion - something that lacked the rulers of the conquered nations.
so from what i know, in portugal at least, after the reconquista some people started to miss the "good old times" when they were "slaves" to the desert people since the christian rulers usually ruled with a much tighter iron fist
(i don't know if all i've ever read was just a romanticized version of what happened and how people felt at that point.. but it really looks like they weren't the "bad guys" at the time)
The girls were caliente. That's all I can say.
>>416270
I'm Muslim and even I think that may be a bit romanticized. While Spain was certainly a better place to be than the rest of Europe, I doubt it was as cohesive and advanced as that narrative projects.
>>415491
great if you where a muslim
decent if you where not, that is if you don't mind heavy taxes the muslims don't have to pay
and absolute shit if you where one of the many many infedel slaves
>>415491
somebody been playing age of charlemagne?
>>416270
mostly because they conquered the most wealthy parts of the former roman empire and used their wealth to build institutions and attract people
It also helps that they did a lot of damage to the christian kingdoms when you want to be better then them
Cordoba Caliphate was way more developed than christian kingdoms of Asturias, and basically the rest of Yurop.
They were great at Mathematics, Astronomy, Agricultury, and they were proficient at arts and literature.
Also, they tolerated and lived together with christan people of the Caliphate, usually named "mozárabes".
>>416528
No, why the Hell Suebi are Germanic while Visigothic are not?
Fucking Paradox, they love to make shitty things to make people rage in their Forums and ignore them while protected by their fanboys.
>>416539
/his/ is just /pol/ with dates.
>>416583
>implying /pol/ can get a date.
>>415491
Religious minorities were given much more freedom than the ones back in the middle east. Also, the jizya was almost flat and tolerable unlike the Copts in Egypt which had to pay an oppressive jizya to the Abbasid.
This is why there was a Jewish golden age in Spain but not back east.
>>416597
>Religious minorities were given much more freedom than the ones back in the middle east. Also, the jizya was almost flat and tolerable unlike the Copts in Egypt which had to pay an oppressive jizya to the Abbasid.
This is bullshit. Religious tolerance lasted about 50 years before it became a brutal ISIS-tier caliphate
>>416607
>Religious tolerance lasted about 50
This is true, and should obviously be so given that the Moors could not afford to mistreat a population by which they were greatly outnumbered.
>brutal ISIS-tier caliphate
This is hyperbole, IMO. Life for a Christian under the Moors was less than ideal, certainly, and no where near the convivencia that Castro and others have claimed over the years, but neither they ISIS-tier. They did shitty things like impose dress codes for Christians, forbid them from carrying weapons, forced them to ride asses rather than horses, etc., but they weren't exactly running around painting ن on people's doors or beheading Christians en masse.
And, yes, I know about the Cordoban martyrs but that was a phenomenon rather specific in location and time.
>>416804
>hey did shitty things like impose dress codes for Christians, forbid them from carrying weapons, forced them to ride asses rather than horses, etc
vs what Christians did - covert or die
Why couldn't the Moors hang on to the peninsula?
>>417505
al-Andalus was almost constantly beset my internal strife after the fall of the Caliphate of Córdoba
>>417505
Sociopolitical turmoil left them vulnerable to Christian invaders/re-claimers. Berber revolts were the worst thing to happen to Moorish Iberia. Berbers were the ones that really started the crack down.
>>417446
The difference is that the supposed atrocities historically committed by Christians are widely known and studied, and quite often greatly exaggerated, while the atrocities or misdeeds of Muslims in Iberia and elsewhere are downplayed. The lie of convivencia is - to this day - taught in universities across the Western World, and I can only imagine what is taught about al-Andalus in the Muslim world.
t. Alberto Barbosa
>>416539
It literally happened, though. And with good reason from the perspective of the jews, as the last visigoths were notably anti-semitic. It's highschool knowledge if you're spanish.
>>416270
t. Alberto Barbosa
>>417446
This is what you actually believe.
>>416270
>so from what i know, in portugal at least, after the reconquista some people started to miss the "good old times" when they were "slaves" to the desert people since the christian rulers usually ruled with a much tighter iron fist
This sounds like grade A bullshit. Everyone in Portugal celebrates the unholy asskicking delivered to the moors.
>>416567
Age of Charlemagne is the Total War one. The CK2 one is just called Charlemagne.
>>415491
WE
Oh wait, it's not that kind of thread.
To be perfectly honest I would have rather lived in Al-Andalus than the christian bumfuck kingdoms up north. At least the Moors had baths.
>POOR LITTLE MUSLIM BABBYS THEY DIDN DO NUTHIN THEY WERE GETTING THEIR LIVES BACK ON TRACK
>MUH MOSQUE NEEDS MORE MONEY FOH THEM PROGRAMS
>>417656
Same.
>>417446
The Toledo of Alfonso X was a cultural meltpot of muslim, christian and jewish traditions. He is the most well known castillian king.
Both examples have examples of tolerance and intolerance.
>>417656
>actually believes this
>>417591
What does t. mean and why do I keep seeing it absolutely everywhere recently?
While it's true the Andaluzians were lax in their dealings with the jews and the christians (mozarabs) so were the christian kingdoms. The christian kingdoms generally allowed the muslims to continue their cult as long as they paid a tax, as was the custom.
>>417505
The almoravids and almohads couldn't stop the christian kingdoms, they were too focused on securing morrocco and conquering algeria. Meanwhile there was a large current of Andaluzian culture and technology flowing to North Africa while nothing was going the other way.
>>417674
Why should I not believe this? Roman infrastructure was much more developed in southern spain, and the moors were better at maintaining and creating more stuff. This includes baths, which is something muslims have to take according to their desert trilogy book.
>>417673
To be honest, it's because Toledo was fucking massive when it was annexed by Alfonso VI. Alfonso couldn't put an iron fist on it because the threat of rebellion was always there, especially considering it was bordering (and many times threatened by) Islamic Iberia.
>>417705
Do you think the majority of muslim rulers of the peninsula didn't have similar reasons for their tolerance?
>>415567
If they stayed spain most probably would be similar to most other islamic dominated states today
>>417689
>desert trilogy book
Dune? Sounds like a waste of water.
>>417715
Well, the christians and jews were people of the book, the Koran instructs you to let them be as long as they pay the jizya, so at least they have that for an incentive.
Does the Bible say anything about how to treat Jews or other conquered non-Christian peoples?
>>417676
Do you have no context understanding?
Example:
>"I'm a fag" t. OP.
>>417734
Fuck Dune the first book it's so fucking good and then it just becomes worse and worse until you have to fucking drop the series and slit your throat.
>>417779
the original trio (?) written by Herbert himself is damn awesome
those written by his son makes me throw up
>>417806
I think Herbert wrote more than 3 books for Dune, maybe 5?
>>417823
No. There were no books after the third. Shhh. Don't say it. Herbert did no wrong.
>>417848
Fuck you, God Emperor was cool.
>>417575
>what is taught about al-Andalus in the Muslim world.
From my understanding modern muslamists hate the Ummayads because they killed Mohammed's brother and weren't zealots.
>>415491
It depends on who you like to believe, the Priests or Imams.
>>417619
>country oppresses Jews
>Jews are not loyal to their oppressors when liberators come
>"this PROVES that we must oppress Jews!!"
Literally /pol/ logic
>>416539
Reminder that is a historical fact, because the Visigoths were not letting Mordechai run his business and pray Yahve in peace.
If you don't like it how it was, then you goto /pol.
>>418759
>ISIS ostensibly wants to return to the Golden age
>Golden age Muslim rulers were (generally) interested in technology, academia and keeping things coposetic with non-Sunni subjects
>ISIS are angry mobs of luddites that bury everyone that isn't a salafist in a shallow grave
ISIS/Salafists have a remarkably poor understanding of the history of Islam I feel.
>>418832
I believe the Rabbis, and they were pretty fucking sad when christfags took over
>>418988
Catholics weren't, anyway. The Jews loved the Arians.
But, yes, the Jewish involvement is not a conspiracy. The money that Julian, count of Septem, received to hire Tariq ibn Ziyad came largely from Jewish sources.
>>417646
when i mentioned people after reconquista i was talking about the people living in that era that lived during both reigns
and the masses will celebrate pretty much anything as long as it involves getting drunk, speaking of heroic feats or by simply having a day off
also, a few years ago the portuguese voted from oliveira salazar in a poll to find the "best portuguese ever" and he won the first place.
it would be like spain doing the same with franco, germany with hitler, italy with mussolini, etc so what the portuguese think is more or less irrelevant at this point... (ironically the 2nd place was given to aristides de sousa mendes - an embassador under salazar rule who decided to go against his direct orders and decided to open the doors to all fleeing refugees being persecuted by hitler, he did that in 2 days or so and went to the point of passing clearances in napkins, old journals, etc.
he was pretty much ostricized by salazar who made sure he died hungry and in rags
>>419007
They don't want to return to the golden age (an Abbasid thing), they want to return to the Rashidun. Which they consider to be exactly like the state they're creating, be it true or not.
>>419011
>I believe the Rabbis
>>415523
But islam deserves to be publicly declaimed and insulted. I am not a muslim and I don't want to be,
>>416270
>they were more developed in social, economic and thinking
True. They were mostly an urban civilization, while the asturian christians and medieval europe in general was always a rural civilization.
>they had better physicians
A lot of the intellectuals and physicians from the Ummayad Caliphate were actually jews.
>didn't opress the conquered nations, delivered several technological and social advances
Jyzia tax can be considered a form of opression, but they did allowed the worship of other religions besides Islam
>so from what i know, in portugal at least, after the reconquista some people started to miss the "good old times" when they were "slaves" to the desert people since the christian rulers usually ruled with a much tighter iron fist
I'm Portuguese, and I never heard such a thing. And I've read a lot of Mattoso.
>>420902
Salazar wasn't all that bad. He was something of a cultural supremacist, with christianity at the core of his ideology, but he wasn't racist in the sense that the Italians were and certainly not like the Germans. More of a white burden, noblesse oblige kind of guy.
He even spoke for Portuguese Jews living in Germany, about how the Portuguese constitution didn't recognize race. Possibly because there was little to no risk involved; there haven't been a lot of Portuguese Jews since way back.
He is an underrated statesman today, internationally. People know of Franco but a lot of things hint that Salazar's backing made the man.
The "best portuguese ever" thing was actually easy to rig. The same person could vote for the same guy several times from different numbers. Still, it's true that the Portuguese seem inclined to what you'd call "slave morality". We even have a messianic tradition: Sebastianism. One day our rightful despot will return from the fog and solve everything.
