>Christianity caused the Dark Age
It was caused the Dark Age because that is when black people became kings of everywhere in Europe. We lost a lot of information on it because whites didn't want us to know.
>>412871
>close down greek philosophical schools
>burn libraries
>overwrite ancient science manuscripts with prayers[1]
d-din do nuffin....
1. https://www.sciencenews.org/article/prayer-archimedes
>>412892
>we had calculus back than
Fuck Christianity.
I'm looking into early Greek philosophy and it's tragic how fucked up Christianity got us. Did you know Heliocentrialism was already a thing? Like it was a really early concept. The reason we got stuck with Geo-centralism is because the Christians couldn't stop sucking Aristotle's dick.
>>413196
Was Aristarchus that said that, right?
And apparently they had a rudimentary steam engine back then
crazy stuff
>>413196
Less Christians; more renaissance thinkers. The whole idea of the Renaissance was BE AS OLD AS POSSIBLE! Which meant if it was new or different from the "Greats" of the bygone days, it had to be wrong.
The catholic church did. Nothing to do with christianity.
>line infantry warfare was dumb
>>413864
Aristotle was hugely worshiped by Western Christians ever since scholasticism, that's why they even use his terminology when explaining transubstantiation.
>Dark Age
Are you stdying history from a book from 1800?
>Christianity comes to power
>Entire west falls into stagnation
>Age of Enlightenment happens
>Catholic church loses its power hold
>Now we're a space faring civilization
Coincidence!
>dark age
People in this thread just fucking suck.
>>414139
succinct summary of a 10 year olds view of history
>LIBRARY OF ALEXANDRIA
>>413196
Aristotle, with the information available to him, disproved the theory of Heliocentrism to the satisfaction of the greatest minds for a thousand years, and without technology and/or a better understanding of motion it was impossible prove. Without the fortunate combination of Copernicus reviving the idea, Kepler fixing the work of Copernicus, and Galileo actually observing that they were right, then getting the data for a better understanding of motion, the concept of heliocentrism, grounded in ancient religious beliefs of all kinds and the general human feeling that the earth isn't moving, would be very difficult to prove. The ancients didn't have the concept of motion to understand why falling objects on a rotating earth didn't have to swerve off to one side. They didn't have a fully developed concept of gravity; it was just believed that it was in the nature of terrestrial objects to move towards the center of the universe just as it was the nature of celestial objects to move in the heavens. That the sun is at the center only seems obvious to you now because you have been taught it all your life.
Of course we had the basis of calculus then; Zeno's paradox was already a thing; you'll note that he didn't figure out calculus, just hinted at the possibility and correctly surmised through incorrect reasoning an infinite volume.
>Christianity caused the fall of Rome
Can't make this shit up
Lots of things contributed to the fall of the Roman Empire and the coming of the Dark Ages. Furthermore, the concept of blame needs to be examined. Was the mindset of Christianity involved in the suppression of scientific advancement during the Dark Ages? It would be hard to argue otherwise.
But if humans invented a religion in the image of current society, can't we say that the society itself was responsible for both the formation of Christianity and the coming of the Dark Ages?
>>414139
>Germanics come to power
>Entire west falls into stagnation
>Momentary neoclassicism and rebirth of culture in Southern Europe after Germanic influence wears off
>Protestants ravage Europe in the bloodiest war after WW1 and WW2 in an attempt to kill off the remnants of Roman civilization after misinterpreting holy Latin and Greek texts
>Momentary neoclassicism and rebirth of culture in France
>Germanics form coalition upon coalition to stop it
>Eventually find out about this "centralization" and "nationalism" thing and ascend from their tribal instincts
>Find out about the steam engine invented first by Hero of Alexandria
>Steam Jews in a global chimpout
>Also use it to massproduce weapons of extermination and so-called food
>Now we're approaching literal extinction
Coincidence!
>>414920
not at all, the eastern roman empire stayed together for almost a thousand years more and they were also christian
>>413892
>The Catholic Church has nothing to do with Christianity
Okay.
>>414954
No, we must blame one institution. If we don't where do we spew our vitriol and dank memes?
>>415007
>dark age in Western Europe
Was there a dark age in Germany? No, if anything, urbanization started at the time and Christianization brought literacy.
Was there a dark age in Spain? No, Visigotic monarchy kept most roman traditions intact and cities flourished.
Was there a dark age in Britain? There was no bright age in Brittani to begin with, but Irish surely did spread literacy and culture at the time.
Was there a dark age in France? In the northen part, yes, because of Franks. Provance/Occitania kept urban life and roman cultural traditions for a long time. Then again, northen France wasn't very civilized to begin with.
Was there a dark age in Italy? Eventually, after Gothic Wars and Lombards depopulated the region and lack of food shipments from around the empire caused deurbanization.
Do, in the end, "dark age" is mostly an Italian meme made by Italians to describe Italy after its "liberation" by fellow romans.
>>415039
Dark Ages is an Italian meme to describe the entire Middle Ages, ie 1000 years of Italian irrelevance.
>>415039
The lack of modern science facilitated the belief in gods facilitated the suppression of science, ad nauseum.
Rome invented christianity specifically to deal with it's vast problems of dealing with it's massive population of chattel slaves. At the time christianity was invented, around 313AD, chattel slavery was converted to serfdom with christianity in charge of keeping the serfs serving as slaves to the aristocracy, somethng it did with great success for the next 1500 years, until the French revolution. The greatest success of the church was in keeping the serfs from knowing that they were slaves, something it still succeeds in doing today.
Theres your Dark Age
>>415065
>The greatest success of the church was in keeping the serfs from knowing that they were slaves, something it still succeeds in doing today.
lol so you're saying we still live in the Christian Dark Ages right now.
Man I can't wait for the Renaissance to finally start.
>>412871
The fall of the Roman Empire is what caused the dark ages.
Also, the advent of feudalism and serfdom.
>>412892
>>413196
Rome literally destroyed civilization, they burned down the library of Alexandria, they sacked the largest trading Empire Carthage, they sacked and depopulated the Greeks, and then systematically destroyed the Greek world.
Before Rome, trade could occur between Britain and the Levant. After Rome all the old trade networks were laid waste.
>>412871
Didn't the huns and Visigoths cause the Dark age or am i missing out on something?
>>415039
>Was there a dark age in Germany? No, if anything, urbanization started at the time and Christianization brought literacy.
The Romans ruled a large part of Germany, and civilization didn't spread to the areas outside of Roman rule until the Carolingian Empire.
>Was there a dark age in Spain? No, Visigotic monarchy kept most roman traditions intact and cities flourished.
The Visigoths were never anything comparable to the Romans they replaced. Show me any impressive Visigothic art, architecture, infrastructure, or feats of engineering comparable with what was achieved under Rome?
>Was there a dark age in Britain? There was no bright age in Brittani to begin with, but Irish surely did spread literacy and culture at the time.
Britain was a part of the Roman empire. There were flourishing cities, roads connecting all parts of the country, and functioning infrastructure. This was replaced after 400 AD by a bunch of tribal Germanic petty-kingdoms with no civilization. The fact that the only civilized people left were limited Insular monasteries only further drives home how much things had declined.
>Was there a dark age in France? In the northen part, yes, because of Franks. Provance/Occitania kept urban life and roman cultural traditions for a long time. Then again, northen France wasn't very civilized to begin with.
I'll ask the same question I did with the Visigoths; were there any feats of art, architecture, infrastructure, or engineering comparable with what was achieved under Rome? Just because some people were still living in crumbling Roman cities doesn't mean things hadn't declined.
>mostly an Italian meme
The Renaissance notion of the Dark Ages included everything from the fall of Rome to the 14th century. It has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
>>415065
> Rome invented christianity
>>415090
>civilization didn't spread to the areas outside of Roman rule until the Carolingian Empire
sure thing buddy.
>>415148
Why don't you try actually refuting me. Show me some German cities flourishing between 400-800 AD outside the area where the Roman ruled.
>>415090
>civilization didn't spread to the areas outside of Roman rule
So there was no "dark ages" in Germany. This is a pretty big part of Western Europe, you know.
>The Visigoths were never anything comparable to the Romans they replaced.
Yet the cities flourished and roman-style government kept working until arabs.
>Show me any impressive Visigothic art, architecture, infrastructure, or feats of engineering comparable with what was achieved under Rome?
Show me any impressive Roman art, architecture, infrastructure, or feats of engineering of the last 300 years of Roman empire? Urban development stopped in 3rd century, arts stagnated, climate changes and taxed reduced food production and lead to deurbanization from 3rd century onward. For the fuck sake, Constantine had to strip other monuments in Roma to decorate his arch. Visigoths didn't make it worse for sure.
>Britain was a part of the Roman empire.
This didn't make it civilized though, somehow the only literate people by 600s in the GB were Irish, who never was a part of the empire. The easy with which "civilization" died out in Brittan shows it was never civilized in the first place.
>Just because some people were still living in crumbling Roman cities doesn't mean things hadn't declined.
Marseille and other Provence cities flourished long after 5th century and mostly kept roman lifestyle. And again, your image of late empire is overly optimistic.
My point is, "dark ages" is too board term to apply to all of the Western Europe. Some of it, like Germany, Brittan, and Northern France weren't bright to begin with, even being a part of Roman empire. Some of it continued with its cultural and economical life almost unchanged, like Spain and Occitania. And only Italy had a huge setback, mostly because of it's being a warzone for centuries.
>>415171
>So there was no "dark ages" in Germany.
Yes there was. Under Roman rule there were cities, roads, and civilization. After that, nothing until the Carolingians.
>the cities flourished and roman-style government kept working until arabs.
So Roman cities were still inhabited, but nothing new was actually built except some tint chapels. At least the Arabs could build shit.
>Show me any impressive Roman art, architecture, infrastructure, or feats of engineering of the last 300 years of Roman empire
Are you serious? How about the Basilica of Maxentius? The Aurelian Walls? The Aula Palatina in Germany? Rome didn't just die in the 3rd century.
>The easy with which "civilization" died out in Brittan shows it was never civilized in the first place.
That's fucking retarded. If civilization declined, that means it was never civilized in the first place? How the hell does that work? Do you think all those Roman cities in Britain just never existed?
>Marseille and other Provence cities flourished long after 5th century and mostly kept roman lifestyle.
Source? And you didn't address what I said; just because the cities were still inhabited, doesn't mean they hadn't declined.
>"dark ages" is too board term to apply to all of the Western Europe.
The vast majority of western Europe saw a huge decline in urbanism, literacy, technology, political institutions, and culture. Before the fall of Western Rome, western Europe saw great feats of architecture and engineering, had large cities, saw the rise of literacy, and was generally an integrated part of Roman civilization. After 400 AD, the vast majority of this civilization collapsed. A few weak petty kingdoms replaced the greatest empire on Earth, most cities were abandoned, and literacy was restricted to monasteries. Just there were a few specks of civilization left doesn't mean you can pretend a decline didn't happen.
>>415170
There can be civilization outside of cites, y'know. Your notion of civilization just repeats what was said 500 years ago.
>>415207
I never denied that monasteries were civilized. But monasteries are not the same as a functioning state or an urban civilization. They were tiny enclaves of civilization within a society that was overwhelmingly uncivilized.
>>414139
>>Christianity comes to power
>>Entire west falls into stagnation
it was already like this though
>>415214
What is civilization?
What is a state?
You are using modern categories for pre-modern times. Shit won't work. For example you can't really call Rome a state for a very long time and only in very small sectors.
>>415226
The hell are you on about? Are you just flat out denying the existence of states and civilization? Do you think that's what modern archaeologists, anthropologists, and historians believe?
A civilization is a socially and culturally complex society with at least cities or writing. A state is a centrally organized society with a complex bureaucracy and a monopoly on military control within its borders.
You're not even trying to make an argument anymore. Rather than refuting my points your just trying to start some meaningless debate on what constitutes civilization.
>>415258
>A civilization is a socially and culturally complex society with at least cities or writing
Arbitrary definition but okay. Are runes writing? I guess if not there was no Germanic civilization although they of course uses some Latin even East the limes. I don't get why cities should be part of a definition though and you also lack the definition of a city so you are just pushing the problem away. Not that cities are easy to define but saying cities are a necessary condition for a civilization is eurocentric and out-dates as fuck
>A state is a centrally organized society with a complex bureaucracy and a monopoly on military control within its borders.
Sorry mate but by this definition the Roman Empire was only partly a state. Bureaucracy pretty much didn't exist in the Republic and only some slaves working for August and the first few emperors could be called bureaucrats.
>borders
No such thing in pre-modern times
>monopoly
No such thing in Imperial times as proven be the countless rebellion. The exception again: Augustus.
>organized society
This means nothing.
>military control
There wasn't even a police force in Rome for most of the time.
>You're not even trying to make an argument anymore. Rather than refuting my points your just trying to start some meaningless debate on what constitutes civilization.
If you arguing whether A is B or not you should be able to define B. You reaction to my post pretty much proves that you lack higher education (no offense). And my point was not what CONSTITUTES a civilization but how we can DEFINE it for the sake of our argument. Go read some Weber or Elias or some other basic theoretical stuff. If not you are stuck on (American) high school level and wikipedia.
>>412871
>Christianity saved people from the dark ages.
The fall of Rome was the begging of the dark ages. Their fall had nothing to do with christianity illiterate faggot.
>>412892
>>413196
>mfw the only reason you could write that post is because of the Church
>>415477
Christians went to a lot of effort to wipe out history that might have interfered with their 'Biblical facts'. Hence libraries, science and philosophy and history were destroyed.
This along with the Inquisition forced everyone to believe one set of beliefs. It set science back hundreds of years, and it was science that finally revived human sensibilities and introduced the current era of freedom.
>>419230
>>413892
The Catholic Church was also the only church that mattered in Christianity until after Charlie.
>>415258
>cities
Define a city. Is it just a relatively large settlement?
>writing
So native muricans weren't a civilization?
>complex bureaucracy
Bureacracy wasn't a thing in a lot of places. You'd only need it when shit grew large enough and when you tried to tighten control, which wasn't the case in many early 'states'.
>borders
Back then borders amounted to a vague block of territory where your influence started to fade considerably. It wasn't a set thing, because set borders sort of need everyone else to agree to them. That just wasn't possible so long ago and nobody actually gave a shit about pinning down the 'borders' accurately. At most it went 'aight so this is my side of the river not yours' and even then little transgressions were whatever tier.
>socially and culturally complex society
How complex is complex, because honestly the family of five next door probably has their own customs and rules and shit that would qualify.
>centrally organized society
How central do you want it to be? I'm sure every single little village had something amounting to a village chief, there's your center. Organized means nothing at all, a complete lack of organization is a type of organization in and of itself.
>military control
This just wasn't a consistent thing unless you mean they could hammer you with an army, which is given if you circled around within unfamiliar lands.
Actually, by this definition any small state that bordered a (stable) empire can't be a state because the big empire could march an army through their borders and they could do nothing to stop the empire's armies.
>>412879
It's true. Charlemagne was black. We wuz kings n sheet
Exactly what the biggest cause of Rome's fall is up for debate. But Christianity was definitly a factor.
Christians were literally an anti-Roman organization and they were very vocal about this. They made every attempt to say that Roman culture was 'evil' which undermined the nation's confidence in itself. The directly denied the legitimacy of it's ruler and the one patriotic idea that united all of them by refusing to acknolwedge the divine nature of the emperor. That would be the equivlent of saying that all the Congress-men and the President were not elected democratically or to say that constitution should not rule the land. This is why Christians were constantly being killed, they were not being 'oppressed' they were literally anti-government forces that insisted that they do not have to answer to anyone except their cult leader.
The idea that Christians did not in some way destroy the moral, patriotic, and cultural order of Rome is downright revisionist.
>>420026
You fail to understand the simple fact that Christianity is changing constantly since 33 AD, and conversion of Constantine changed is dramatically.
>Christians were literally an anti-Roman organization and they were very vocal about this.
Only early Christianity did this. After 2nd century Christian apologists worked hard to change popular image of Christians to present them as a loyal citizens they were.
>The directly denied the legitimacy of it's ruler and the one patriotic idea that united all of them by refusing to acknolwedge the divine nature of the emperor.
This is funny because by the late 4th century Christians considered Emperor to be appointed by God and court rituals and propaganda used Christian themes extensively.
>This is why Christians were constantly being killed
No they weren't.
>insisted that they do not have to answer to anyone except their cult leader.
Yeah, and after ~325 Roman emperor was the cult leader.
>The idea that Christians did not in some way destroy the moral, patriotic, and cultural order of Rome is downright revisionist.
How are you doing, Edward?
Christianity is the end-point and culmination of classical philosophy.
No, unrestrained immigration and the decline or morals, governmental corruption caused it.
Much like what is happening now in Europe.
Rome fell because of reasons that align with my political ideology.
This thread is filled with filthy revisionists
>>420077
Here's the full list: https://www.utexas.edu/courses/rome/210reasons.html
>>420071
Hello /pol/.
>>413196
>Did you know Heliocentrialism was already a thing? Like it was a really early concept. The reason we got stuck with Geo-centralism is because the Christians couldn't stop sucking Aristotle's dick.
Holy shit you're fucking retarded.
Every pre-modern conception of heliocentrism was wrong. Before the Stellar Parallax could be properly observed, it was actually more scientifically accurate to support geocentrism.
Heliocentrism wasn't opposed because of the Church, it was opposed because with the primitive instruments of the time it didn't make any scientific sense.
>>415090
>This was replaced after 400 AD by a bunch of tribal Germanic petty-kingdoms with no civilization. The fact that the only civilized people left were limited Insular monasteries only further drives home how much things had declined.
utter shite
>>415171
>somehow the only literate people by 600s in the GB were Irish
also utter shite.
>>412871
this is OP and the entire thread
Rome fell because people started having sex with each other nonstop.
>>413852
hehehehahAHAHAHAHAHEhehe...heh...
*sniff*
I hate it so much
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolipile
>>412892
>Archimedes figured out infinitesimal calculus
WHAT
WHAT THE FUCK
IS THIS A DREAM
Daily reminder Archimedes was killed by science-loving truth-seeking open-minded Romans.
>>424539
Every Roman had strict orders not to kill Archimedes but the autist was to busy doing his equations to tell the Romans storming his room who he was.
how autistic must you be about maths for that to happen
worst of all was the guy who destroyed the Great Library at Alexandria, with god knows how many tens of thousands of ancient scrolls, was later made a SAINT by the Pope.
This shows where the churches priorities lay
>>424554
>Hey, we finally killed that smartass nerd who was causing so much trouble.
>Good, but now let us came up with some silly tale so we wont look like a bad guys here. Because we totally aren't.
>>413919
this
That's why it's ironic when Christians talk shit about philosophy.
The Catholic church would be nowhere without Aristotle.
Was the cult of Augustus and Rome replaced with something of similar strength?
If a life of basically SJW activism gets me a place in the afterlife, I might disregard the state and all that comes with it, if you know what I mean.
>>419230
This notion always confuses me. Why was it incumbent on the west to develop science? We know that Europe declined and that it was inferior to much of the rest of the world. Why didn't anyone else start a scientific revolution? ie china,india, Muslim world, Japan, etc.
>>425152
>china,india
Too feudal
>Muslim
Mongols
Europe developed capitalist monetary system which encourage innovation.
>>412871
I fucking hate people who believe this.
The "dark ages" were caused by the fall of the roman empire and the germanic migrations.
And christianity has nothing to do with these.
>>425345
Maybe Christianity could have contributed to the fall of the west though, not necessarily being the n°1 factor but still. It was a change in mentality no? I don't see Christianity as a proper mindset in such harsh times, for the individual and his hopes of afterlife maybe, but not for Rome as a whole.
>>412871
>>Christianity caused the Dark Age
I wish this meme would die
name me one medieval scientist executed for being a scientest?
>inb4 Galileo
>15 February 1564 – 8 January 1642
>medieval
and why was it scientists like Albertus Magnus, Robert Grosseteste, Roger Bacon, John Peckham, Duns Scotus, Thomas Bradwardine, Walter Burley, William Heytesbury, Richard Swineshead, John Dumbleton, Richard of Wallingford, Nicholas Oresme, Jean Buridan and Nicholas of Cusa were freely allowed to study science and weren't prosecuted by the catholic church?
>>425439
or persecuted*
>>425369
The eastern roman empire seemed to do pretty well compared to the west...
>>425450
Well, pretty well...it became relatively irrelevant relatively quickly after Justinian didn't it?
I just don't see how the christian mindset is a blessing in those years, I see it more as threatening.
>>425439
Shhhh, font use facts, it will hurt the fedora tipper/shitposters feels!
They are just loathe to admit that the Church not only preserved most of the knowledge we have from the ancient world, but was the only force promoting education throughout the entirety of the middle ages, invented the university system, tamed great portions of the land through monastic labor, and just generally built Western civilization in a way second only to mother Rome herself.
The only arguments are cherry picked "well they didn't copy this book!" or "they didn't endorse this scientific principle that was unproven at the time!"
I will make sure to reflect on them this weekend as I bask in the glory of Western Civilization by attending Roman mass.
>>425492
It was the wealthiest and most powerful country in Europe during the middle ages for centuries after Justinian
>>425492
>irrelevant relatively quickly after Justinian didn't it?
>invented and introduced the fork to europe
>basil the bulgar slayer
>arguably the best army in the world until the introduction of the tagmata system and the byzantine army effectively becoming state bound mercenaries
>>425439
>name me one medieval scientist executed for being a scientest?
Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces by a hysterical Christian mob
>>425614
Nice meme
>>425614
>415
>medieval
kek
>>425614
>415
>medieval
>in East Rome
>>413892
This desu. Catholics pray and worship idols of human martyrs, which goes directly against at least two of the Ten Commandments. There is papistry, and then there is Christianity.
>>425644
Please go back to /r/atheism with your shitty """""""""""history"""""""""""
>>425644
Pfft! HAHAHHAHAHAHA
The Dark Ages lasted maybe 200 years or so and were caused by the Plague of Justinian decimating the population. They had nothing to do with technology, which was already stagnant. Technology just didn't evolve as quickly then as it does today. As the Middle Ages went on, Rome's acheivements were overtaken in several areas in terms of technology. Economics and demographics is what made Rome great, not technology.
>>425644
>one case
>B-but christian dark ages meme
>>425614
WE WUZ EQUATIONS N SHIT SISTA
>>425614
No she wasn't, that's yet another made up story.
>>424522
>the only surviving copies in whole are in those prayer books
We wouldn't have them without it faggot. They would have been used as Firestarter by some fucking unwashed Germanic shit.
>>414920
>swastika on the shield
Were they nazis?
Christianity is more prevalent in the modern era than at the decline of Rome, but no one is calling the modern era Dark Ages. Pic not related.
>>420496
>>>415090
>>This was replaced after 400 AD by a bunch of tribal Germanic petty-kingdoms with no civilization. The fact that the only civilized people left were limited Insular monasteries only further drives home how much things had declined.
>utter shite
>>>415171
>>somehow the only literate people by 600s in the GB were Irish
>also utter shite.
Literacy rates amongst Anglo Saxons was pretty poor. From 600AD the people lived in shitty wattle and daub huts with livestock literally wandering around the village. Everyone's houses had one room that was filled with smoke. Are you seriously going to claim that this wasn't a serious step down from Roman towns and villas, decent roads, central heating, grammarians teaching Latin all the way in the north west and significant traiding with the continent?
>>426608
It's gotten dark. Morally and culturally
>>414224
>thinking you know something because you saw some fragments of it posted in 4chan
>not knowing how to greentext
underage b&
>>414955
I just want to say, consider me your friend and here's to people like us making this board glorious
>>412871
Why the fuck is this board plagued with religious asshats?
6/10 threads are about religion.
>No such thing in Imperial times as proven be the countless rebellion. The exception again: Augustus.
State is defined as the top level of a hierarchical society. All decisions affecting that society are made on that top level. Historically, states maintained or acquired that power through force and have only exited in class societies. Any other use of force to achieve benefits within that society has to be authorised by the state or is deemed illegitimate, effectively making the state the sole distributor and owner of force.
Any enclaves of a different societal structure (like medieval cities where capitalism was born for example, which by the way nobody has mentioned) though they may have existed, can only be examined in their relation to history: therefore, we can not credit the monasteries as a justification for abandoning the term "Dark Ages", since their influence in changing the course of history which brought today's age of information was non-existent; it was the consolidation of power as the other anon said and the industrial revolution that allowed capitalist powers and their form of government that best suited them (one to deter regal power) to rise. The fact that we learned of the literary treasures of the church does nothing to change the fact that it was kept hidden from the masses during the Middle Ages.
>>425652
>Being this much of a heretic
Catholics don't worship saints. Saints are honored, God is worshiped.
>>415047
venice , genoa, and the papal state were far from "irrelevant"
>>427155
god and christ are the same, filthy arian
>>427456
>god and christ are the same
Nonsense. God is imaginary and Jesus Christ is a Jewish historical figure.
>>425614
irc it wasn't really a religious issue, more of a political issue. Hypatia was for a governor who the mob opposed and they killed her because of politics not "muh science." Also there were some pretty good scholars that came after her like ierocles, Asclepius of Tralles, Olympiodorus the Younger, Ammonius Hermiae and etc.
>Hypatia was murdered during an episode of city-wide anger stemming from a feud between Orestes, the prefect (or Governor) of Alexandria and Cyril, the Bishop of Alexandria.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia#Death
>>427484
and there he is, your typical smartass atheist, ruining the fun for everyone.
>>414955
>Steam Jews in a global chimpout
I lost it.
>>415083
Do you ever feel shame when you lie like that?
>>415096
Well they did
No one follows the Christianity that existed before the Roman one
>>425614
Because she was a woman, not scientist you freak
>>425614
>Hypatia
>Scientist
your mom caused the dark age because she's so fat that it bloced the sun
>>428790
u tried
>>412892
overwriting manuscripts was common practice in all of the ancient world
>>424595
I think it's fair to assume Marcellus really wanted Archimedes unharmed for himself, to make use of him like some ancient Wernher von Braun. Too bad it didn't work out that way. Hopefully they at least executed the fucker who slayed him.
Christianity wasn't at fault. Christian monks from Ireland went to Europe during what is known as the Hiberno-Scot Mission. They spread knowledge of Greek and Latin, they made Latin the language of kings and learned men for centuries to come. They kept a lot of Greek philosophy.
So, to summarize, the Catholic Church was at fault, but the Irish were in limbo, they were *technically* Catholic but they didn't pay taxes or take orders from Rome. That's why the Papacy supported the Norman invasion of 1166.
The name for the early Irish church doctrine was Celtic Christianity.
>>420143
>noticing a general trend of declining morals, corruption and massive population movements is /pol/
wtf happened to this board.
>>412892
http://www.strangenotions.com/gods-philosophers/
>>420071
Euros kinda deserve it though, look at all the shit they have gotten away with.
>>435261
>wtf happened to this board.
It became lefty-pol. You are supposed to be in favor of what pol calls a decline in morals.
>>424630
>when Christians talk shit about philosophy.
This is a thing?
I thought all Christians know that Greek philosophers are a heavy influence on Christianity.
>>425644
>after the Christians killed all the people like her.
So when did this genocide of women scientists by Christians happen?
>>412871
Triggered atheistfags ITT lmao.
>>425614
>>425630
>>425632
>>425636
>>425644
>>425662
>>425666
>>425668
>>425818
You are too illiterate about the case of Hypathia. Read up. To those of you who are christians you shouldn't play semantics of "but thats not medieval" "but thats ERE / Egypt" as definitions and timelines change. You may accuse me of relativism but it is the same relativism you do to avoid the argument. Some scholars also poetically equate the death of Hypathia to the end date of the science in antiquity, but bear with me and read below
Those who are atheist or want to show Hypathia's example should really really study that time period. Hypathias death has nothing to do with Christian view on science. Christians did enforced cencorship particularly to writings which are non nicean and non chalcedonian (later on), but most (not all but most) persecutions of pagan scientists happened because they were pagan not because they were scientists, for the case of Hypathia she was caught in a power struggle between jews-pagans and christians funnly enough the biggest asshole in this scene was Cyril and the most sensinble guy (imho) was the Christian governor who tried to keep the peace.
again and again we see monks going nuts but christian governors, population etc knew they had to get along with pagan and jews if they wanted a stable society. Christians even judged Shenoute of Atripe for disturbing the temples of pagans.
In other words Christians of 5th century were far more sensible and less fanatical than some of the crusade larpers you see ITT. Hypathia is a really really shit example, hell its not even an example at all.
>>435311
>>424630
Had a guy who said "What has writings of Plato has to do with Christianity, the guy was pagan lel" few months ago, so there's that.
>>413196
>implying Christianity was ever incompatible with heliocentrism
>implying Copernicus wasn't Christian
>>425152
>We know that Europe declined and that it was inferior to much of the rest of the world. Why didn't anyone else start a scientific revolution? ie china,india, Muslim world, Japan, etc.
They did, but they eventually ran into the same problems that undid the Roman Empire.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_dynasty#End_of_the_dynasty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_Empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasanian_Empire#Decline_and_fall_.28622.E2.80.93651.29
>>435427
>end date of science
what the fuck
science isn't a period in history you silly cunt it can't just stop all of a sudden
>people unironically believe in the "Dark Ages"
>people unironically think Christianity wasn't a boon to humanity
>people blatantly ignore the massive cultural, juridical, political and economical progress in those so called "Dark Ages"
>falling in for a 700 year old meme made by a butthurt wog who just hated mosaics
>>427484
Oy vey God doesnt exist but, Heaven does!
Dont forget le 6 bajillion Goyim.
>>420071
Germans have been trying to destroy Europe since the 4th century.
They can't help it. It is in their blood. It's like American niggers and accepting responsibility.
>>415096
technically paul the apostle created the Christianity that we know today, but he isn't wrong though.
>>435613
>dark ages
>named because it was a time of strife which caused significant gaps in written history that we are still learning about today hence the name dark (unknown).
sure is ironic.
>>415083
>there was no way to trade between Britain and the Levant
>in an empire that covered both Britain and the Levant
>>435930
>germans
>ancestors of nearly every major people in europe
>destroying europe
stop this shitty meme, germanophob
>>436711
>ancestors of nearly every major people in europe
le what
>>428773
The governor, Orestes, was known to seek her counsel, and a rumor spread among the Christian community of Alexandria blaming her for Orestes's unwillingness to reconcile with Cyril (the Bishop). A mob of Christians gathered, led by a reader (i.e., a minor cleric) named Peter, whom Scholasticus (contemporary Christian scholar) calls a fanatic. They kidnapped Hypatia on her way home and took her to the "Church called Caesareum. They then completely stripped her, and then murdered her with tiles."
>>435613
>>people unironically think Christianity wasn't a boon to humanity
>People don't think Mitraism of one of the other many cults could have filled the role of a unifying religion. After all, China and Japan weren't Christian, and their religious beliefs toe them apart...oh wait...
>>436757
english, spaniards, portugese, frenchmen, (north) italians, scandinavians (except finns) are all descendants of germanic people
>>428773
> a mob of Christian zealots led by Peter the Lector accosted a woman’s carriage and dragged her from it and into a church, where they stripped her and beat her to death with roofing tiles. They then tore her body apart and burned it. Who was this woman and what was her crime? Hypatia was one of the last great thinkers of ancient Alexandria and one of the first women to study and teach mathematics, astronomy and philosophy.
>>436286
>>427853
Before Rome Europe had a MANY to MANY relationship between all the disparate peoples.
After Rome conquered everyone, they destroyed everyone's culture, starting with the Etruscans. While Rome became the power, all the peoples in Europe had a ONE TO MANY relationship.
After the ONE was destroyed, all that was left was the MANY without any relationships.
> Before Rome
MANY TO MANY
> Roman Period
ONE TO MANY
> After Rome
MANY
>>437079
Actually it was because she was on the wrong side of a political struggle between two officials. It had nothing to do with her being a woman or a scientist.
>>425152
>he actually thinks this
I'm curious, guys, if Christianity did not cause the dark ages, did it contribute at all?
>>437093
forgot image
>>437107
I understand there was a conflict, it represents how the Dark Ages occurred, a struggle between christianity and the other faiths, which required violent destruction for christianity to succeed.
>>437112
Filthy unwashed Germanic shits, luxury, and leasiure caused the dark ages.
Christianity because the institution for preserving knowledge.
>>437112
Christianity the religion was basically just a primary motivator for literacy among certain members of the population.
Christianity as represented by the Catholic Church caused wars between Christians to be more convoluted affairs, and smaller-scale, allowing for more stability in the tumultuous years between Rome and the growth of states.
The other Christian churches were mostly getting pillaged by Steppe men or Muslims.
The infrastructure of public education completely fell apart in the Middle Ages. Monasteries were little pockets of knowledge that survived this and were therefore kept under tight control by their overseers in Rome.
>>437480
But the University system was founded during the brilliant ages...
They also developed the western notation of music
>>415007
it wasnt a dark age m8. Life expectancy was actually longer than during Roman times
Anyone who thinks Christianity caused the "dark ages" is an idiot with a 12 year old's perspective on history
Nope.
Yeah fuck all those stupid fucking religious priests and monks who kept and maintained classical texts. It's their fault.
>>437617
The average monastery had about 2-3 books, all of which were religious texts, often written over the actually useful ancient Greek works.
>>437838
Better than them being used as fire starter.
Writing over them preserved them in the best way they could.
>>437617
Mayne, why do we have to be so polarized about it. Yes, some monasteries did a great job of preserving knowledges, and yes the Church had its very obscurantists moments. Let's not pretend the condemnation of Paris wasn't an obscurantist move.
And indeed the Galileo affair is misrepresented and was more the result of scientific dogma than religious one, but the Church had a direct hand in supporting this dogma.
>>436801
of course it could, that doesnt contradict that Christianity wasn't a boon. And not just in the sense of unifying.
>>436757
>spaniards
>portuguese
>french
>north italians
Oh, OK. We wuz ancestors n shit
>>437112
If anything, it was what brought them out of it
Charlemagne pushing Roman Catholicism was a huge fucking deal as it pretty much set the precedent for Europe onward. I really wish we knew more about the Carolingians, they're based as fuck
>>437112
It really did. As I explained below knowledge is power. The church didn't want some secular scientist or pagan philosopher to be explaining things in ways that went against church teaching.
That's what the Giordano Bruno case was about. Early Christians beleived that the universe was made specially for humans, Bruno proposed that there were infact countless suns with countless earth like planets that all had life. This idea threatened dogma and opened up a ton of difficult questions (did Jesus die for the aliens?). Bruno was also in position of a lot of banned philosophy and science books that promoted this. So naturally he had to die
>>437445
No dude. Christianity was one of the worst things to happen to knowledge. Philosophy and science were kept on short leashes. They threatened the entire theocracy by providing a new way to obtain understanding that was not derived from the church.
There were serious attempts to limit or ban the types of things that could be studied. Works were only permitted if they advanced the agenda of the church. This was a huge problem. Philosophy had 'gotten out of hand' and was now telling people how to live their lifes instead of the priests and science was starting to embarrass the religion by proving them wrong on a number of beliefs.
Catholicism took the rationalist trend as opposed to Orthodoxy's mysticism. That said, the monastic life that is the main draw between Buddhism and Christianity was largely shut down by the Reformation in Europe. The Reformation was not only anti-clerical but anti-monastic so Europe's contemplative tradition is more older material and thus harder to get into for the Catholic parts of Europe that retained the monastic tradition despite. There was exceptions though. The Imitation of Christ is the standard go-to book for Catholic ascetic, akin to Orthodoxy's Ladder of Divine Ascent. More recently there is Thomas Merton who is a mid-20th century contemplative and fantastic author on both the western tradition and it in comparison to Eastern religions.
>>424595
>go into a room during the siege of Syracuse
>some weird faggot is drawing shit on the floor
>you tell him to turn around and state his name
>he tells you to fuck off because he's doing science n shit
>you are literally riding on apex bloodlust
>fuck him.fresco
He may have been senile. After 78 years of life in Magna Graecia I think learning not to fuck with the angry assholes with swords is a must.
>>438030
>Giordano Bruno
>the fucking 16th century
>dark ages
Are you fucking retarded or just blinded by ignorance?
>>438022
ever heard of the migration period?
>>412879
>>438030
Christianity was the best thing to happen to Knowledge during the dark ages, I never said they were the perfect institution for developing it.
Would you rather have Islam or Paganism?
Fuck off
>>439511
>Would you rather have Islam or Paganism?
Plenty of learning and knowledge happened under the pagan Greeks and Romans, and there were other competing religions than Christianity and the various European polytheisms.
I will never understand why Christianity has to be considered above criticism. It's not as though the church did nothing wrong. Is it just a reaction to the fedora tippers that see no good in the church?
>>441379
Germanic paganism... not really on part with Greco-Roman paganism.
>dark ages was an actual thing
>>412892
>>413196
Obligatory.
>>420071
But that's wrong you dumbass. The Germanic tribes arrived on the tail end of a multitude of internal problems that had been affecting Rome for a long time. They just happened to be in the right place at the right time to be able to get at the heart of the empire. Rome was an open target; if it wasn't the Germans, than it would have been some other group that Rome had fended off and marginalized previously.
>>423419
worth it
