>"I'm not even an atheist so much as I am an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful." - Christopher Hitchens
how do you respond?
Y-Yeah...well.....at least I'm not dead
>>412476
With optimism
Thats a naive and cynical view of religious belief
>>412515
He meant organized religions, OP fucked up the quote and left out the part about churches.
>>412515
The man knew the bible back and forth better than 80% of most Christians, I would hardly say he was naive.
However yes he was very Cynical.
>>412476
"You are figuratively Satan, prince of lies. And you can't be angry at God longer than God can forgive you."
This is now a Based Hitchens thread
>required viewing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nIRJVmZ4K8
>>412476
>the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful
lmao
>>412559
>That smug, bored drawl
>That verbal theist genocide
>>412588
>Source for the percentage please
Science
>Still enjoying the inferior Hitchens sibling
Grow up faggots!
"If we didn't have the church, we'd have the mosque. You're welcome"
>>412610
>Instead of arguing, the Christfag just makes shit up and plays with hypotheticals
Shocking
>>412606
Based morality man
>>412588
Most people don't know their scriptures. Asking for empirical proof on common observations isn't going to slow his superior argument down.
>>412618
And Atheists don't?
>>412638
>Atheists do it so I can too
You think like a child. It's shit when either atheists or religious people do it.
I agree on the whole no god thing but why do you have to be such a dick about it?
>>412606
>We didn't lose our empire, America forced us to give it up!
How is that different from losing?
>>412635
From the Christian perspective, they aren't really Christian then. Only nonbelievers choose to lump nominal Christians in with the genuine ones. Some of you can't even decide whether Agnostics count as Atheists or not.
>>412643
Exactly. but I wasn't even the first guy you responded to, so relax son.
>>412657
>No True Scotsman, right off the bat.
>>412618
>Implying I'm wrong
>Implying all other things being equal, Islam wouldn't have steamrolled Europe
>Implying Europe isn't being overrun by Islam right now thanks to the weakness of the church
>>412476
Is it more harmful than cancer? :^)
Seriously though it's such a shame Hitchens wasted so much of his time and talent on such a non-issue, instead of something more constructive like focusing is efforts on criticizing the regressive left and rejuvenation of the right. Imagine him writing columns for Breitbart instead of circlejerking with Sham Harris. Still is one of my favorite orators though.
>>412647
Becuase christians and Muslims are not just dicks they're give an inch take a mile assholes.
>>412663
>Implying Islam would have existed if Christianity never had
>>412663
Europe is being overrun by Islam becuase you have secularists, not ardent Atheists running things.
>>412657
Anyone who's baptized and accepts all of the Apostles' Creed is Christian by definition.
Also no one, on either side, claims agnostics are anything more than agnostics.
>>412647
Because selling Atheism as "believe this and it will make you smarter and a better person than the masses instantly!" is more marketable than simply expressing it as a differing worldview. Its become a cult following in itself.
>>412647
People are being slaughtered in the name of god as you type.
>>412675
No it isn't. Christianity is not a set of rules to follow, its an actual change in your mindset.
>Also no one, on either side, claims agnostics are anything more than agnostics.
I've seen plenty of atheists badgering agnostics to just admit they're atheists. Especially favoring the "you're an atheist to Zeus!" line.
>>412606
[morality intensifies]
>>412476
I used to be an atheist. Than I started looking to Jung and Campbell and I realized myself and most of the world has completely misunderstood the concept of Gods, Angels, Spirits, and Demons.
Once you strip away the superstition from religion you are left with powerful symbols. Symbols that are deep within our subconscious and fulfill some vital roll. The symbols do not need to be a part of a religion, they seep into all aspects of culture. Once I understand that God is not a man in the sky but a powerful psychic phenomnia I stopped being an 'athiest'. Of course there is a God, it's silly to think there isn't. He's as real as sky or the earth.
God is very powerful. I met him in a dream. As in I literally went to sleep an atheist and woke up knowing God. The Christians are for the most part too superstitious and dogmatic to understand God and the atheists refuse to see something that is plainly evident.
>>412696
>Once I understand that God is not a man in the sky
You're a naive fellow with naive grasp of theology who fell for naive pseudo psychology nonsense.
>>412476
by acknowledging that he is an idiot and that religion since time memorandum comes from astrotheology and explains the truth in universal ethics and morality from stories that cleary represent the sun/stars/zodiac/etc. taking it literally on both sides is stupid.
>>412647
>why do you have to be such a dick about it?
>>412696
im on the same page. are you familiar with manly p hall?
>>412682
He saw how united and prosperous the monotheistic empires that surrounded him were. He also saw how shit Arabia was, with its endless petty deities, decentralized society, and constant clan warfare.
He probably invented a new monotheism so his people could finally get their shit together, instead of playing with figurines.
>>412696
>DUDE WEED LMAO : the post
>>412725
was is the picture?
>>412684
To be a Christian you have to accept the Apostles' Creed, you can't be a "good person" and qualify for the faith without accepting its basic tenants.
The whole "all you need to do is follow the greatest of all commandments" line is a shitty cop-out. You're just trying to avoid the embarrassment.
I doubt you even accept all of it.
>>412705
I've actually researched Christian theology. Theology is good to understand God but you need to look into all of it. For instance I learned a lot from Avicenna.
The trouble with theology is that it's too narrow. A proper understanding of God should be able to account for all religions. The Christians feel content to just dismiss other religions as false or misguided, when infact no religion can be false. If people have a genuine, deep connection to an idea of some sort of God...than that deep feeling doesn't just come from nowhere, it comes from God. A lot of religions aware of God but they cannot describe it. In fact I don't think anyone had a real clue about what God is until the 20th centuary. We have so much more data on how the mind perceives things, about world religions, compared to the past. We are the first generation to realize that God is a psychological force rather than some sort of spirit that performs miracles.
Another problem with theology is that it tries to centralize dogma. For instance, how could you prove my conversation with God is any less legitimate than the one that Paul had?
>>412683
>islam is all religion
nice meme
>>412749
According to that other guy nothing that warrants being mean to theists.
>>412705
>god can only be a big man in the sky or he doesn't exist
>he calls other people naive
Read a book you fucking mong
>>412756
>Christianity and Buddism are not the cause of many slaughters in the past years
Nice meme,just because Islam commits 90% of all killing sprees it doesnt mean the other religions are not causing violence,it just means Islam is more effective at doing so (because muslims still believe in God unlike most Christians)
>>412770
>Christianity
>Buddhism
>cause of many slaughters
>a couple of pro-life nutjobs and a few (admittedly vicious) retaliations against muslim provocations
>as bad as hundreds and hundreds of suicide bombings, shootings, terrorist attacks, wholesale slaughter and rape of defenseless ethnic groups such as the yazidi, calls for the death of the west, etc.
Fuck off back to tumblr faggot
>>412785
>Buddhism
>not the cause of many slaughters
Myanmar? Sri Lanka? Thailand?
>>412756
back to /lit/ pls
I don't see what theism has to do with religion.
>>412754
>The whole "all you need to do is follow the greatest of all commandments" line is a shitty cop-out.
>i-it's just a cop out
>>412785
>>as bad as
When did I say it was as bad as muslim violence? but Christians and Buddist have not been saints lately,the fact that you can only list events that happened in America means you must be a fat yank retard who cannot be arsed to keep up with international news.
Religion causes violence,ignorance,superstition,etc all of that under a false premise.
It deserves all the shit it gets and more.
>>412791
Slaughtering the Muhammedan is the gateway to heaven.
>>412817
It's true. I heard Richard Dawkins say that if you kill a Muhammedan, all your sins will be forgiven!
I'm not an anti-atheist, but an anti-communist. I maintain that atheism is merely a vessel for the propagation of communism amongst the learned classes.
Case in point, Christopher Hitchens was an unapologetic Trotskyist who supported the massacres of Leninism and the Cheka until he died.
>>412682
And if the Jews don't exist, we're throwing babies to Maloch.
I'd even take ISIS over that.
>>412823
Dawkins wills it!
>>412696
God isn't something you can "converse" with and I highly doubt a sleeping mind is in any condition to use that ability. A dream is as disjointed as the wandering thoughts that occupy the mind during idle work.
>>412823
I know you are being sarcastic but Richard is more likely to call forth a crusade than the Pope.
What a time to be alive.
>>412813
... You mean the anti-muslim violence in Myanmar? That took place in America? Dumbass. By the way, nice argument. I guess technology is a net bad for humanity because of all the people who have died in modern wars, right?
>>412861
Oh, I know he is. I take what these people say seriously, and it's incredibly dangerous. They think everyone who doesn't think like them is stupid, and so not only is it justified, but easy to murder their way to victory.
>>412872
Do people get gun down by packs of feral fedoralords who proclaim they are acting on behalf of technology? don't answer that.
>>412887
They tend to be lone shooters, but yeah.
Denying God is just masturbation, considering all existence is just a neuron in His mind. We are all figments of God's imagination and trying to supplant that is the ultimate delusion.
>>412898
That delusion.
Why do people always blame religion for war and bloodshed? As long as humans exist, even with no religion, we'll find something to fight and kill each other over. Take away religion and I can guarantee you something will replace it.
I thought Hitchens was a great debater, but he had a lot of political stances I disagreed with. He was a little TOO into Orwell, what with wanting the US to topple every dictatorship out there.
>>412902
Azathoth pls, you're supposed to be asleep.
>>412922
http://nypost.com/2015/10/01/oregon-gunman-singled-out-christians-during-rampage/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/oregon-shooter-asked-about-religion_56103b22e4b0dd85030c4feb
What's it like living under a rock?
How much do you pay for rent?
>>412936
Because war and bloodshed are happening right now LITERALLY in the name of religion.
And when I say literally I mean it by the definition of the word,people are praising God while blowing up shit and shooting civilians,its documented its right there in front of your eyes and you chose to ignore it.
>Take away religion and I can guarantee you something will replace it.
I'm not saying religion causes all war but its a big reason,atheist majority countries are in general more peaceful,its an undeniable statistical fact.
>>412827
>atheist
>communist
socialist maybe, but using atheist with communist is an oxymoron. The Soviets had a God, it was called the state.
and blue jeans.
>>412943
The oregon gunman was not an atheist you damn fucking retard,did you not read his social media account? he actually killed people who confessed to be christians because he believed they would go straight to heaven.
I'm done discussing with you,you cannot be arsed to provide a SINGLE valid argument then I cannot be arsed to debate with you.
>>412949
>religion
>not Islam
typical mealy-mouthed lefty bullshit. say what you mean pussy
>I'm not saying religion causes all war but its a big reason,atheist majority countries are in general more peaceful,its an undeniable statistical fact.
>what is correlation does not equal causation
>>412977
Not him, but when was Islam not a religion?
Just because Middle Eastern Islamic terrorists are backwards, only half-sane 7th century imbeciles with 20th century technology, doesn't change that their book enables their behavior.
>>412977
Christians are commiting war crimes in Africa and Buddists are doing the same in Asia.
When people take religion seriously bloodshed ensues.
Why is Islam so violent? because Muslims are the most fervid believers in the world,when people took Christianity as seriously as Muslims take Islam today it was not different,religious wars tore Europe apart.
>>412606
Peter is a typical, joyless husk of a pompous Englishman.
>>413005
When you win a war, that's all that matters
Vae victis, same reason I think we should have followed Sherman's example and torched half the south as punishment.
>>413008
That also goes for his brother.
>>413005
People need oil,countries need clay,america needs to wave its dick around,nobody needs religion.
By dumping religion you are removing a major cause of conflict without sacrificing anything in return.
Tip my fedora to my fellow intelligent atheist
>>412969
You sir, are mad.
Perhaps we could discuss this further after you apply some preperation H.
>>413011
>he doesn't think reconstruction wasn't punishment enough.
>>413022
>nobody needs religion
>without sacrificing anything in return
hahah you're fucking dreaming if you think you can wave a magic wand and make people's natural curiousity and urge to understand the mysteries of existence suddenly disappear no questions asked. maybe the doctrinal baggage of religions today could use a little downsizing and reform but lmao @ just eliminating religion/spirituality wholesale. jesus christ so many fucking beep boop autists on this board, no understanding about human nature or anything
>>413022
>People need oil
lmao
>countries need clay
lmao
lmao
>>413053
He's no proposing it actually can be done he's just simply making the observation that if religion simply ceased to exist there really would not be any significant consequence.
Science could easily fill the void.
>>413056
Without oil you would starve to death,do you think tractors,trucks and boats run on friendship?
>Humanities board
ayy
>but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful.
how do atheists even argue this?
>>413021
Well pompous would be as far as I go with Christopher, though he did make some effort of humility. Overall though, the two were night and day. It would have been a treasure to share Scotch with the man and get him ranting on Clinton or Kissinger.
>>413060
beep boop we can replace the solace and community supported afforded by a local church and spiritual mentor with a scientist who can just look at your brain scans to tell you what's wrong and then prescribe you medication beep boop beep boop
Since I don't want to make a fresh thread for this, are there any modern day equivalents to Hitchens? I always appreciated his input on current events, and wish I could see his reaction to the mess in Europe these days
>>413076
Where have you been raised that you've never experienced actual humility or joy?
>>413073
Religion promotes willful ignorance at best.
Murder and genocide at worst.
Thats the jest of the argument.
>>413105
>jest
>>413090
Douglas Murray seems to have been inspired by Hitchens, but he's no replacement.
>>413105
>jest
Absolutely sad and banal
>>413107
Gist then motherfucker, I'm half drucnk I get that liberty at least.
>>412476
"I agree but they're so cool though, orthodox patriarchs are fucking pimps yo."
That's how I respond.
>>412495
Didn't he say that Christianity was relatively benign compared to Islam which would fall under "non christian" faiths?
I think he'd despair at that pic tbqh lad
>>413090
David Starkey is pretty based. But no where near as enlightened.
>>413122
>David Starkey is pretty based. But no where near as eloquent.
ftfy, Hitchens never seemed particularly intelligent to me, just very eloquent. He had an ease with words that I found very impressive.
>>413103
Not me personally, but I have several friends that had to escape Religious Fundamentalist families. Like Westboro Baptist Church tier, without the public protests but in some ways worse. Some of them didn't remember laughing until they were 15, and all of them were groomed to spew the fire and brimstone of the bible the moment anyone attempted conversation with them. It was a life of pure arrogance and misery as I've ever heard.
>>412761
he is a 33rd degree mason that goes into exactly what you were saying and beyond. this lecture is a personal favorite of mine, and you wont be disappointed if you sit through it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHSumNdWACc
>>413324
OK. That's quite an experience.
But still, you can really shoot higher for "authentic joy" and "humility" then Christopher Hitchens. Like...fucking anyone. Maybe start small and check out the republican primaries?
>>412949
>atheist majority countries are more peaceful
Wouldn't that be because they're modernized?
>>412606
There's a reason Peter is less popular. He's an insipid commentator on most matters and utterly typical on others. Only really looked up to on places like /christian/ and /pol/.
>>412476
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PbYoQw8M48
I would call his natural predator, David Berlinski.
>>412476
>bisexual atheist alcoholic marxist jew
>died of cancer
It's like poetry.
>>413981
>athiesm is caused by the devil
Ahahahahahahahahahaha
>>414187
And if good, honest, upright christian folks die of cancer, what would you call that?
>>414269
>what would you call that?
Well, the Bible says that diseases are caused by demons. So he was probably such a good person that demons attacked him
>>414290
And god didn't protect him? Against fucking demons? Shouldn't faith be like the superweapon against demons anyway?
>>414319
I'm not really an expert on these matters. I'll quote you part of St. Thomas Aquinas's Summa Theologica though:
>Some spells are so perpetual that they can have no human remedy, although God might afford a remedy by coercing the demon, or the demon by desisting. For, as wizards themselves admit, it does not always follow that what was done by one kind of witchcraft can be destroyed by another kind, and even though it were possible to use witchcraft as a remedy, it would nevertheless be reckoned to be perpetual, since nowise ought one to invoke the demon's help by witchcraft. Again, if the devil has been given power over a person on account of sin, it does not follow that his power ceases with the sin, because the punishment sometimes continues after the fault has been removed. And again, the exorcisms of the Church do not always avail to repress the demons in all their molestations of the body, if God will it so, but they always avail against those assaults of the demons against which they are chiefly instituted.
>>414352
>because the punishment sometimes continues after the fault has been removed
Christian morality, everyone.
- manuscript culture
- cathedral schools
- universities
- almost all art and architecture until the 17th century
- scholasticism
- the scientific method
- the fact we don't keep slaves or watch children get eaten by lions for entertainment
Meanwhile, things brought to you by atheism that aren't pseudo-scientific cults or genocidal ideologies:
...
>>414377
>manuscript culture
greeks
>universities
greek academy
>almost all art and architecture until the 17th century
all contract work with stolen money
>scholasticism
an intellectual black hole
>the scientific method
greeks
>the fact we don't keep slaves
nigga are you serious?
>>414403
You obviously don't even know enough history for effective trolling.
>>412476
I'd agree with him that all religions (and he obviously means the modern religions, not paganism) come from the same core.
I'd agree that they are all "false", as in a God doesnt exist.
I would disagree that they are useless. They have most definitely been useful throughout the years, and can still be useful if they and the churches that they administer are guided towards spirituality, ethics, mental health and charity work, and stay away from the sciences and politics.
Stop trying to explain how the universe works, who created who, and trying to dictate laws, and instead start collecting money to build shelters for the homeless, to bring water and education to poverty stricken countries, and try to nurture morals in the more and more decadent youth.
>>412559
The bombastic titles of these videos really put me off.
The Hitchslap, or Hitch vs God and other such, so cringy.
Still good viewing though.
>>412606
They had a debate at some point, although it was pretty dull. I expected more fire.
Although it did lead me to notice that Chris has abandoned his english background and became entirely american.
>>412696
Basically you are into history, philosophy and ethics, except you are too dumb to understand them without the religious coat of paint on top.
Drop the god part and start looking at why humans shaped religion this or that way at this or that point in time. There is your treasure.
>>412756
All religions want the same thing, islam is just the alpha stud of the group, so he goes and takes it.
Christianity is the beta who gets closer and closer to shooting up a school. It has happened in the past.
>>414377
Things discovered in times of religion doesnt equal things discovered because of religion.
You might as well say all these things are brought to us by wine, since people did drink wine while discovering them.
>>412559
Absolutely amazing
>>414469
Those are all things that were literally created by the Catholic Church.
>>414510
Really nigga
I don't completely agree with the anon your responding to, but really
>>414510
>literally created by the Catholic Church.
>cathocuks actually believe this
>>414510
Created under the Catholic church.
The same way rockets were created under fascism and space flight was created under communism.
Yet we dont thank the communists for allowing us to explore space, and we dont thank the nazis for allowing us to get there.
Religion is the only case in which otherwise intelligent people become idiots for the sake of claiming its useful.
>>414510
>yfw Hitchens was drunk most of the time
>yfw drunk Hitchens could still BTFO sober christfags and mudslimes
>>414510
>>412476
>but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful
hahaha what an idiot
the only reason we aren't tribal savages still killing each other for barely any reason is because Christianity turned people into such moralfags. fedora atheists so fucking clueless they're reaping rewards because people followed Jesus' way of life.
>>414512
>>414514
>>414515
>>414517
>all this fedora rage
Yes Kevin. The monks copying ancient manuscripts belonged to the Catholic Church. The cathedral schools and the universities were founded and run by the Catholic Church. The churches and cathedrals were built by the Catholic Church, and the Renaissance and Baroque religious art of Rome was commissioned by the Catholic Church. Scholasticism and the scientific method were developed within the cathedral schools and universities of the Catholic Church, by people who themselves often belonged to the clergy of the Catholic Church, on some occasions only thanks to direct intervention by the Catholic Church.
>>414524
>the only reason we aren't tribal savages still killing each other for barely any reason is because Christianity turned people into such moralfags
>civilization didn't exist before Christianity.
lel
>>414527
>>414527
>only thanks to direct intervention by the Catholic Church.
Citation needed in context of scientific method
>>414534
Yeah I really can't dumb this down any further.
Those things weren't just created UNDER the Catholic Church. They were created BY the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church, as an institution, LITERALLY CREATED THOSE THINGS ITSELF.
There, maybe caps will make reading less difficult for you.
>>414539
You can't seriously be this stupid
0/10 bait
>>414539
USSR, as an institution, literally sent people into space.
This doesnt mean that if nor for communism we wouldnt get men in space eventually. It wasnt done BECAUSE of communism, it was done under communism.
Same applies for the Catholic church and all of your examples.
>>414537
1277 Paris Condemnations. Often considered the birth of modern science.
The bishop of Paris banned the works of Aristotle from being taught as indisputable fact at the University. They had to instead be taught only as theory, in particular where his works on Physics limited the power of God and excluded certain things as impossible.
This broke the academic conservatism where ever since ancient times Aristotle had been considered a reference of absolute truth. Which was a good thing because as it happens, Aristotle was wrong on every count listed by the Condemnations (that the Universe and Man existed since forever, that heavenly bodies can never move in a straight line, that nothing can move without something continuously pushing it....). Questioning those things led to the works of Buridan and Oresme in the 1300s which laid the foundation of modern Physics and Maths.
But more importantly, it established the principle that any scientific model can only ever be theory, and must never become dogma, but always remain possible to question. This is probably the most important principle of the scientific method.
>>414557
>1277 Paris Condemnations. Often considered the birth of modern science.
No, that is not the birth place of the scientific method. That was literally just the Church censoring some of the teachings of Aristotle.
Aristotle I would consider the father of science.
>>414539
>>414527
You must be an idiot.
Galileo didn't work at a University started by the Catholic Church, he did end up being imprisoned by the Catholic Church and having his books banned.
Newton wasn't even Catholic.
I could go on listing relevant people who have contributed to the scientific method but you get the gist, the idea they were all Catholics and all worked at places of education run by the Catholic church is pure fantasy.
Most of the Renaissance artwork and research was commissioned by rich aristocrats not the Catholic Church BTW.
>>414557
>This broke the academic conservatism where ever since ancient times Aristotle had been considered a reference of absolute truth.
But wasn't Galileo arrested by the Catholic Church for going against Aristotle's theory about the earth at the center of the universe?
FUCK IM SO SICK WITH RELIGIOUS FAGS
THERE IS NO PROOF TO THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
NOBODY SPOKE TO HIM
NOBODY SAW HIM
HE DOESN'T FUCKING EXIST SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT GOD AND GROW UP ALREADY LIFE HAS NO FUCKING OBJECTIVE MEANING WHOOPSI FUCKING DOO WHY DON'T YOU BELIEVE IN DARTH VADER AND GANDALF WHILE YOURE AT IT
>>414566
Calm down, these people were indoctrinated from birth. Shouting won't help them
>>414547
The USSR wasn't the only country doing space exploration, that's a bad parallel.
I don't think you understand how much Catholicism and the Church permeated medieval Western culture. Can you explain how exactly all those exact same things would have appeared if the Catholic Church hadn't created them? You think illiterate peasants would have copied ancient manuscripts? Or maybe blacksmiths and cobblers would have founded the universities, or built Gothic temples to the glory of atheism?
>>414566
What would the presence of meaning change anyway?
>>414569
>Can you explain how exactly all those exact same things would have appeared if the Catholic Church hadn't created them?
He actually thinks that no other humans could have done what the humans in the church did
>>414569
Are you saying the Catholic church was the only institution world wide doing schools? Are you retarded?
>>414569
>Or maybe blacksmiths and cobblers would have founded the universities
You realize that Academy has been a thing since the Greeks, right?
>>414566
>2015
>not believing in Darth Vader and Gandalf
>>414569
First, the whole idea of a monastery isnt related to religion. The first monasteries werent religions institutions at all. Christianity only later took over them.
Secondly, schools were donated to communities by the wealthy people living in them, or build by the community effort, it has happened throughout human history. Religion isnt required for a school to appear where there wasnt one, let alone that particular sect of that particular religion.
>>414573
dunno apparently some people feel that without God life is meaningless and not worth living or something
>>414566
>subject is christianitys contribution to science
>starts complaining about religious people
OK. I'm not christian but i'm also not an idiot and admit that yes, christianity has been a fairly positive on science despite the cool me-meys
>>414587
You just restated what you said before. You haven't told me what meaning does.
>>414560
You don't even understand what the scientific method is.
>>414562
>Galileo and Newton
Yeah you're only off by about 300-400 years.
>>414563
He was actually originally arrested because he refused to teach his theories as anything but indisputable fact. And because he got into a personal quarrel with the Pope. Galileo's intellectual opponents were Humanists, who believed (like in the early Middle Ages) that the Greeks and in particular Aristotle were right about everything. The Catholic Church was originally perfectly fine with the Copernican model.
But anyway this is much later, by then Humanism and the Renaissance had happened, the Catholic Church was largely corrupt and no longer functioned as the foundation for intellectual and scientific advancement.
>>414591
If your dog dies, you are sad. You feel bad, food doesnt taste as good, your mind goes to dark places.
However, if everything had a meaning, then its not bad at all. Your dog had to die, it was suffering. It dying means you will adopt another, which otherwise would have been homeless and suffered terribly.
Thus your dog's suffering is ended, and another dog's suffering is ended as well, because you have room to adopt and take care of it. Its all for the best, this cake is delicious and moist, and I am getting a hardon.
>>414594
The point is that if not for the Catholic church there would be other monasteries, and other schools and universities, you dumb sack of shit.
These things didnt happen because of the Catholic church, they happened while the Catholic church also happened. They coexisted. Each could have existed without the other. They arent required for each other's occurrence.
How fucking basic do you have to be to not get this simple point after several people have been parroting it for half an hour?
>>414592
>Yeah you're only off by about 300-400 years.
Don't be stupid. There is no one person or one point in history where the scientific method was created.
I don't even know in which direction you are claiming I am 300-400 years off. You could go right back to Aristotle or right forward to Popper.
If you think Galileo and Newton were not important people in the development of the scientific method then you are even more retarded than I thought.
>>414600
>there would be other monasteries, and other schools and universities, you dumb sack of shit.
Really. Explain to me exactly how this would have come about.
>they happened while the Catholic church also happened. They coexisted. Each could have existed without the other. They arent required for each other's occurrence.
Except how in the real world, all those things were founded and run by the Catholic Church, not by fucking leprechauns.
>several people have been parroting it for half an hour
Very well put.
>>414592
>He was actually originally arrested because he refused to teach his theories as anything but indisputable fact.
Wrong. During his sentencing, the Qualifiers (theologians chosen to investigate his claims) delivered their unanimous report: the idea that the Sun is stationary is "foolish and absurd in philosophy, and formally heretical since it explicitly contradicts in many places the sense of Holy Scripture..."
He was then put under house arrest for thinking that it is true and publishing another book on it.
Literally censorship in the name of dogma. The Church is the antithesis of the scientific method.
>>414604
>There is no one person or one point in history where the scientific method was created.
>but it was created by Galileo and Newton
lol, wow...
>>414592
>by then Humanism and the Renaissance had happened, the Catholic Church was largely corrupt and no longer functioned as the foundation for intellectual and scientific advancement
Nice No true Scotsman, Catholicism only counts if it's my version
>>414609
>Really. Explain to me exactly how this would have come about.
Well a quick check of the history of the University of Bologna and University of Oxford, the two oldest universities in Europe doesn't mention any involvement of the Catholic Church creating them so I don't know what you are asking to be explained.
>>414609
>Really. Explain to me exactly how this would have come about.
Man, I really hate the big city life, with all its noise, distractions, smells and taxes. I think I will poll together money with a few like minded people and buy a plot of land just outside the city. There we will be free to make small business and grow a garden, while having time to think about what interests us - ethics, morals, reading and translating old texts.
You know, the exact same fucking way that christian monasteries appeared, except minus the christian part.
>i agree with your critique, except i still think i am right in the real world lol
Cut open your legs and hang yourself on the tendons.
>>414613
Are you fucking retarded?
That is not what I said at all.
>>414612
Yeah that's the sentencing. That's what happens at the very end. So, after the arrest. And it wasn't even the actual reason for the sentencing.
All of this is irrelevant, it's in the 17th century, at which point the Church was no longer intellectually relevant and the principles of the scientific method were already long established. Nobody was ever bothered by the Church just for doing science, provided they presented their work as theory instead of fact, and didn't meddle with theology. This still applied even in the times of Galileo, despite the Church having gone to shit by then.
>>414631
>And it wasn't even the actual reason for the sentencing.
But is EXACTLY the reason for the sentencing.
Why does the church arrest people? Heresy. The Qualifiers declared that such a belief was heresy, and heresy deserves punishment under Catholic rule.
What is heresy? It's when you don't believe what the Catholics believe. This is pure dogma. Even the Qualifiers said their reasoning for declaring it heresy was Sacred Scripture
>>414613
>If you think Galileo and Newton were not important people in the development of the scientific method then you are even more retarded
Actually statement by anon
reply
>but it was created by Galileo and Newton
lol, wow...
>pic related
>>414631
>the Church was no longer intellectually relevant
>Nobody was ever bothered by the Church just for doing science, provided they presented their work as theory instead of fact, and didn't meddle with theology
What in the fucking fuck. This just shows a clear misunderstanding of the word "theory" in science. Galileo had overwhelming evidence for heliocentrism. He was persecuted for heresy, not for "claiming something as fact instead of theory"
God damn, you're either a troll or completely historically illiter
>>414614
>history begins in the 17th century, nothing before that ever happened
>>414619
The universities grew out of the cathedral schools, and were all run by clergy. Oxford was founded when English students were no longer admitted at the University of Paris.
>>414621
>describes 1960s American hippie communes
No, that is not at all how monasteries appeared. They were all founded by clergy.
>>414627
Oh ok, so I guess everything in your post after "You must be an idiot." was just a completely unrelated rant. I'll just ignore it with the dozens of other reddit tier meme posts ITT then.
>>414639
Monasteries literally appeared because educated people wanted to be able to perform academic work without being distracted by city life.
The fact that these educated people had a job in the church is irrelevant here.
>>414639
>>>414614 (You)
>history begins in the 17th century, nothing before that ever happened
How the fuck did you pull that from from what I posted, are you suggesting that other countries and ideas did not exist at the time, or that greek ideas (pre Catholicism, also pre (name most religions)) were not a major facilitator of the developments which occurred during a later period when the majority of people happened to be catholic
>>414639
>history begins with the catholic church, nothing before that ever happened, catholics invented writing and the wheel
>>414639
>Oh ok, so I guess everything in your post after "You must be an idiot." was just a completely unrelated rant. I'll just ignore it with the dozens of other reddit tier meme posts ITT then.
Jesus Christ on a bicycle. Saying Newtin and Galileo were important people in the development of the scientific method is in no way, shape or form a statement that they and they alone were the inventors of the scientific method.
Apparently you can't read.
>The universities grew out of the cathedral schools, and were all run by clergy. Oxford was founded when English students were no longer admitted at the University of Paris.
I see no evidence Bologna or Oxford Universities started off as cathedral schools and the University of Paris didn't even exist when Oxford was formed.
>>414634
Heresy is a theological matter, not a matter of natural philosophy. As long as you studied natural philosophy (ie science), didn't claim your theories to be beyond question, and didn't deviate into metaphysics, the Church didn't bother you.
And btw, not claiming theories to be beyond question and not deviating into metaphysics is exactly the sort of principle modern science adheres to.
>>414635
Try reading more than one post.
His statement was that the Catholic Church had nothing to do with the scientific method because Galileo and Newton didn't belong to the Catholic Church.
>>414638
>Galileo had overwhelming evidence for heliocentrism.
He didn't, actually. His science was not convincing, and relied on observed evidence that only he was apparently able to see. And as I explained above, all he had to do to not be at danger of heresy was not claim his theory to be indisputable dogma. And again, this is 300 years after the time that's relevant to this discussion.
>historically illiter
Another amazing point.
>>414653
>Heresy is a theological matter, not a matter of natural philosophy.
CAN YOU FUCKING READ?
THE HERESY THEY ARRESTED HIM FOR IS BELIEVING THE SUN WAS AT THE CENTER RATHER THAN THE EARTH.
Fuck, I'm out of here. You're more stubborn than young earth creationists
>>414653
>Galileo and Newton
Don't quote me, but Galileo was called a heretic, and the other was a heretic in later life
>>414653
>He didn't, actually. His science was not convincing, and relied on observed evidence that only he was apparently able to see.
This is a blatant lie. And the Qualifiers didn't even consider the evidence when declaring it absurd, they simply said it was philosophically absurd in light of Aristotle
>all he had to do to not be at danger of heresy was not claim his theory to be indisputable dogma.
No, all he had to do was believe it, because that's what the definition of heresy is. Now you have to cite why you think he claimed his ideas were indisputable dogma.
Also, the fact that the Church could put you under house arrest for heresy is terrifying, and definitely the antithesis of free thinking.
>>414640
>educated people
Yes I sure wonder how they came to be so educated. Clearly them all being clergy had nothing to do with it, they could just as easily have received their education on some fedora subreddit right.
>>414649
You seemed to think there was some kind of contradiction between the Church being corrupt in the 17th century, and the Church being the foundation of all intellectual advancement in the West for the 1000 years prior. Do you understand how time works? Not everything happens simultaneously.
OK this is great but I do have other things to do, and I'm sure you'll be happier if I stop disrupting your euphoric circlejerk with historical realities.
>>412749
It's the theatre where some of the paris terrorist attacks took place. The picture is dumb af, most of the shooters were french citizens
>>414664
>the Church being the foundation of all intellectual advancement in the West for the 1000 years prior. Do you understand how time works? Not everything happens simultaneously
I have a problem with claiming the church is the foundation, when it perpetuated earlier idea in this particular aspect
>could just as easily have received their education on some fedora subreddit right
Cmon man i though we were having a decent discussion, please stay away from strawman
>debating fedoras
When you've done it once, you've done it a billion times.
To the poor anon who is doing this, just stop. Let them circlejerk. They can't even be bothered to bring half a citation on a history board
Nicole Oresme
Albert of Saxony
(hint, these two were crucial to Copernicus)
Jean Buridan
Gregor Mendel
Albertus Magnus
Roger Bacon (first recipe for gunpowder)
All of these fine men were Catholic/Christian and usually Priests, Albert of Saxony was a fucking Bishop. The fact that anyone can even deny Catholic contributions to science and outright ignore the University of Paris is beyond me, but apparently my simplistic mind isn't enlightened enough
>>414669
You seem smart enough
>claiming the church is the foundation
Not him obv, but foundation isn't the best word, major contributor and factor would be a bit better. Those bored monks in monasteries did quite a bit, they were the literate ones who produced books in the early period, thus they saw and studied Greek texts. Not to mention the Church was rich and more importantly universal, monks and scholars didn't have nationalism to separate them like the US and Soviets in the Cold War, monks traveled across Europe to debate and read and the like.
What ever way you spin it, the Church still had a hand in scientific and nearly all developments I would say.
>>414666
Just playing devil's advocate: just because most of the shooters were French citizens does not mean they weren't joined by, aided by, or bolstered/encouraged by refugees. The pic is dumb, but the fact that the shooters were French doesn't disprove that refugees are precluded from factors of causality.
>>412489
>>414669
OK real quick. There were several stages in Western thought:
- Scholasticism (11th-13th century)
Championed by people like Peter Abelard at the cathedral school of Notre Dame ("I must first understand so that I may believe"), scholastic thinking emphasised reason and logic as the best way to arrive at the truth. The idea of the Universe as a great clock made by God, who also gave us reason so that we may understand his work. The Church was fine with it because it also believed in reason and that it could prove the truth of Christianity (Abelard famously used Aristotle to explain transubstantiation). Logic became the highest science, and Aristotle became the supreme authority because of his work as a logician.
- The early Scientific Revolution (13th-15th century)
Read this post for what happened in 1277: >>414557
After that Aristotle was in many cases disproved and became disregarded at the University of Paris, where the fundamental elements of modern science were developed (early calculus, the concepts of force and momentum, even the Earth's rotation).
- Humanism (15th-17th century)
Now the centre of this budding revolution was in France, which was devastated by the Hundred Years War, along with other disasters like the Plague and little ice age that fell over Europe starting in the later 14th century. In the wake of this, Humanism became the new dominant ideology. By the 16th century it permeated all intellectual circles everywhere. Humanists studied the humanities, that is the ancient Greek and Roman texts. Like they founder Petrarch, they usually dismissed everything that had been achieved since the fall of Rome as "Dark Ages", and wanted to return to classical civilisation. In science that meant Aristotle. The work of the late Middle Ages was forgotten (burned in some cases), and academics went back to blindly worshiping Aristotle. This affected everyone of course, including Church academics.
>>414684
>the Church still had a hand in scientific and nearly all developments
Doesn't actually mean they wouldn't have happened anyway.
>>414696
>Western thought on study of the natural world
>Starts in 11th century
Do you even know who Aristotle is?
>>414696
- Enlightenment (17th century)
Largely based on a waning of Humanism and a rediscovery of pre-Renaissance works. For instance there is nothing that Galileo says about Physics (and that was traditionally credited to him) that wasn't already discovered by Buridan and Oresme three centuries earlier, and there is reason to believe he had read their work. But this time did have the merit of formulating the scientific method explicitly (most decisively by Descartes), which led to the Scientific Revolution.
>>414704
I'm talking about Western civilisation, not ancient Greeks.
>Do you even know who Aristotle is?
Why don't you read my post.
>>414713
>I'm talking about Western civilisation, not ancient Greeks.
Kill yourself.
>>414696
>Scholasticism
SCHOLASTICISM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD.
IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE STUDY OF THE NATURAL WORLD
>>414698
Oh, I thought we were talking about the quote in the OP
- manuscript culture
->cathedral schools
True
>universities
True
>almost all art and architecture until the 17th century
I would put the cut off at the 15th since you saw the rise of the banker families but for the most part the Church commissioned art and statues and the like.
>scholasticism
Should be obvious enough
>the scientific method
Awkward to define really
>the fact we don't keep slaves or watch children get eaten by lions for entertainment
Not really sure about this exactly but the church certainly was central in humanitarian rights, especially with Spanish settlement in the Americas
>>414701
>Doesn't actually mean they wouldn't have happened anyway
Bullshit cop out tbqh, the church contributed, it's irrelevant what could have happened in an alternate history
>>414716
The stupidity of that statement made me physically ill
>>414725
Its an advice, not a statement, and its a very sound one.
>>414719
Scholasticism is a method of reasoning, and it's what preceded the scientific method and what the scientific method was build on, partly by assimilation (the preeminence of reason), partly by rejection (of Aristotlean conservatism).
>>414731
I'm not going to bother with alternate history, I leave my point how it is
>>414721
>it's irrelevant what could have happened in an alternate history
Not if the church actually hindered the sciences by overseeing it. Then, it would be quite relevant.
>>414731
Regardless of that debate, the fact is the Church did do it, so the OP quote about how the influence of the Church has been harmful is crap.
>>414738
>>414736
>the church actually hindered the sciences by overseeing it
How exactly do you intend to support this position? You're arguing with imagination. The Pope could have secretly been an alien with advanced foresight, that would certainly change the situation. Is this the time where we start writing fanfiction about alternate history timelines which support our world views?
>>414733
>it's what preceded the scientific method and what the scientific method was build on
Nope, it's based on the Aristotelian method (which scholastics to some extent ripped off and claimed as their own)
>>414743
Galileo.
>>414745
Is this where I'm supposed to say that the Greeks got all their ideas from ancient Egyptians or some shit and we're all Africans?
I wrote an outline of Western intellectual history, where I mentioned that Aristotle was the principal reference during the scholastic era. I don't really understand what it is you're complaining about now.
>>414747
>>414750
What about Galileo? His theories and contributions were not nearly revolutionary enough to have made a difference when Copernicus and many others had already touched on the subject. He didn't invent the telescope either. Need I remind you Galileo still believed in circular orbits? Jesuit scholars went and used his ideas anyway, they started to observe orbits through the telescope, Kepler and Brahe come to mind.
Oh and give me a citation for >>414612 he used a quote so he must have something
>inb4 stephe fry
>>414762
http://arxiv.org/abs/1402.6168
>>414762
>What about Galileo? His theories and contributions were not nearly revolutionary
Galileo has been called the "father of observational astronomy",[4] the "father of modern physics",[5][6] and the "father of science".[7]
i clear my throat so i dont get cancer
>>413121
atheism followed by the religion of neoliberalism followed by islam is the popular idea. people thought that was ridiculous but then 2015 happened
>>414790
Your mom has been called a "filthy whore",[3][4] a "cumguzzling fuckpig",[5][6][7] and a "disgusting fat pathetically desperate gutterslut".[8][9][10][11][12][13]
>>414790
>"father of observational astronomy",[4] the "father of modern physics",[5][6] and the "father of science"
>judging actual contributions based on popular depiction and opinion
C'mon, you can do better than that. Tell me which particular idea/concept/practice of his was so influential the Church has suppressed the potential of science.
>>414778
It's late, I'll dig through this tomorrow after work if the thread is still up
>>414719
Roger Grosseteste and Roger Bacon were scholastics and they had everything to do with it,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Grosseteste
>It has been argued that Grosseteste played a key role in the development of the scientific method. Grosseteste did introduce to the Latin West the notion of controlled experiment and related it to demonstrative science, as one among many ways of arriving at such knowledge.[14] Although Grosseteste did not always follow his own advice during his investigations, his work is seen as instrumental in the history of the development of the Western scientific tradition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Bacon
>He is sometimes credited (mainly since the 19th century) as one of the earliest European advocates of the modern scientific method inspired by Aristotle and by later scholars such as the Arab scientist Alhazen.[3]
Then you have Oresme
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicole_Oresme
>In his Livre du ciel et du monde Oresme discussed a range of evidence for and against the daily rotation of the Earth on its axis.[6]
Oresme work was a precursor to Galielo and Copernicus. In fact, there is pretty good evidence to suggest that Galileo was reading Oresme in his early university studies.
Albert of Saxony
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_of_Saxony_(philosopher)
>The Theory of impetus[1] introduced a third stage to the two stage theory of Avicenna.
>Initial stage. Motion is in a straight line in direction of impetus which is dominant while gravity is insignificant
Intermediate stage. Path begins to deviate downwards from straight line as part of a great circle as air resistance slows projectile and gravity recovers.
Last stage. Gravity alone draws projectile downwards vertically as all impetus is spent.
This theory was a precursor to the modern theory of inertia.
There are countless others. I would suggest reading up on Medieval Science, there are some good books on it. Edward Grant's work is especially good.
>>414809
Nice
> a high level of discourse is expected. History can be examined from many different conflicting viewpoints; please treat other posters with respect and address the content of their post instead of attacking their character.
>>414813
>changing goal posts
If you want to know his contributions to science, whether or not they got him arrested, go look it up yourself
>>414818
Give him a break, he's only a Christian
ITT:
>THE CHURCH TOTALLY DIDN'T CONDEMN GALILEO FOR HERESY
>actually yes, here are the documents
>NO THEY DID NOT
>but...these are the documents
>OH MY GOD SHITLORD STOP TRIGGERING ME
>>412476
>>414824
They've now switched tactics to "Galileo was a worthless hack anyway!"
>>414827
Yeah, it's amazing. And if you were to show them that no, he wasn't, they would go back to "but he wasn't condmened for heresy".
They can't understand that "heresy" for the church, like "crime" for the state is pretty much whatever the church decides.
Sure, this must be within reasonable limits or else the whole pantomime falls apart but it's not like they're noobs at conceiving intricate reasons for why A is actually B.
>>414762
Your response to the Church hindering Galileo's work and ideas is "he's not that important, anyway"?
>>414820
What are you talking about? Read the thread and my posts, I don't give a single fuck about popular opinion when judging influence on a field of study.
>>414824
>strawman
Only highest level of discourse with fedoras. I skimmed the doc, it basically says:
>my latin translation is better than yours
Its 3am, if you want to hear my part you have to wait.
>>414827
His biggest contribution was the observation of Venus, Brahe did more and better.
Oh and cool it on the circlejerking hotshot
>>414848
>Only highest level of discourse with fedoras. I skimmed the doc
>GUYS I BARELY READ ONE SOURCE, HERE'S MY CRITICISM (also ad hominem please don't notice it)
top kek
>>414815
Impetus was Jean Buridan. Albert of Saxony is rather overrated as a scientist (while keeping in mind that he and everyone else from that period are actually massively underrated of course).
>>414865
>copypasting memes from Wikipedia
Fucks sake, thats actually the sticky for /his
>pic related
>>414848
>my latin translation is better than yours
Also, somehow I didn't notice this. The sentence was read to him in italian, not latin.
Also, this too in italian, we have his abjuration where he talks about heresy yet again.
>>414870
Oh my God, do you seriously have the IQ of a goldfish? Try reading two posts up.
>>414848
Here's what I was talking about here >>414873
> per haver io, dopo d'essermi stato con precetto dall'istesso giuridicamente intimato che omninamente dovessi lasciar la falsa opinione che il sole sia centro del mondo e che non si muova e che la terra non sia centro del mondo e che si muova, e che non potessi tenere, difendere nè insegnare in qualsivoglia modo, nè in voce nè in scritto, la detta falsa dottrina, e dopo d'essermi notificato che detta dottrina è contraria alla Sacra Scrittura, scritto e dato alle stampe un libro nel quale tratto l'istessa dottrina già dannata et apporto ragioni con molta efficacia a favor di essa, senza apportar alcuna solutione, sono stato giudicato vehementemente sospetto d'heresia, cioè d'haver tenuto e creduto che il sole sia centro del mondo et imobile e che la terra non sia centro e che si muova;
>>414876
I replied from 'Nice' down, which was two post up, what's your point?
>>414529
bedrock of virtually all current first world nations is Christian laws and teachings.
but feel free to argue that atheist marxists in eastern europe, russia and asia don't commit genocide like they were drinking coffee
>>414886
>bedrock of virtually all current first world nations is Christian laws and teachings.
Bedrock of virtually all current first world nations are roman laws and enlightenment values.
>>414892
Two different anon's mate, He's exaggerating and your mad, and I can type you cunt
>>414867
That's what I learnt from Grant's books originally. It is interesting that the wiki page is crediting him with it now, it is from German book I have no access to. I just took it at face value.
The main innovation I heard of Albert's was his understanding of Rainbow's, apparently he was the first in the west to get a decent understanding of how they work. Though I can't find a good source on it at the moment.
Buridan is a giant of course. Really the 14th century was an incredible time intellectually. I really hope that the common history people are taught gets updated one day to gives these guys their due.
>>414890
lol keep doing your mental gymnastics
the top country in the world was created because they wanted to express a Christian lifestyle
butthurt atheists in prosperous Christian countries should just fuck off to North Korea or some other atheist shithole instead of mucking up a good thing
>>414906
>the top country in the world was created because they wanted to express a Christian lifestyle
Even though this is false, it still doesn't matter. It could be the truest statement ever. Doesn't change one bit what I said and what you previously said since we were talking about "virtually all current first world nations" not "the top country in the world".
Keep moving the goalpost
>>412476
"fag"
>>414890
Enlightenment values are Christian.
And civil law was only tangentially inspired from Justinian's codex, actual ancient Roman laws didn't work like that at all.
>>414918
>And civil law was only tangentially inspired from Justinian's codex
Are you saying edgy incorrect stuff on purpose? Or does this come natural to you?
>>414918
>Enlightenment values are Christian.
>>414927
>Civil law as it exists in most countries is derived from Napoleon's codex
Yes, and I wonder what was behind napoleon's codex.
>>414918
>Satanism is Christian
>>412725
where are these pics? on liveleak?
>>412725
Right I forgot Catholics did that.
>>414959
Except Enlightenment values aren't just a reaction against Christianity, they're literally Christian and Catholic values: reason, equality, humanity, and the scientific method.
