Is ebonics a legitimate language or just an excuse for bad english?
>>410629
It's a dialect, so an excuse for bad English. Doesn't really matter since American English is shitty English to begin with.
>>410629
You can't even fucking capitalize and you want to talk about "bad english"? Read Guy Deutscher's the Unfolding of Language and never ask this question again. Seriously it's a good book and it answers your question.
>>410634
>min ansíen hwonne
It's a dialect. And niggers didn't invent it, shit like I is / you is, ax instead of ask, y'all, I ain't seen nobody, etc was learned from their white slave masters.
Ax for example can be traced to old English "āxian".
>>410635
it's a malaysian stone crafts board where threads are going to be gone by the end of the day. you don't have to be a tryhard with the words to get the point across sempai
>>410634
Actually, if you subscribe to linguistic prescriptivism, British English is shitty English.
American English is much closer to the language of Shakespeare than what's spoken in the British Isles now.
>>410672
I'd like sources for this.
Midwestern American English is GOAT and news anchors typically learn to speak like that but I've heard some British accents that just sound so much better. Not the chav shit either.
>>410649
Doesnt matter where Ebonics came from, it is ignorant and shitty slang
>/his/ -History & Humanities
Ebonics is the Italian to British English's Latin
>>410689
It's not slang, it's an actual dialect.
>>410689
>I'd like sources for this.
Sorry, can't give you one, as I no longer have a JSTOR account. But general speaking, settler communities tend towards linguistic conservatism.
Americans avoid the passive voice, which has become more common in Britain over the last 500 years, while a lot of Americanisms are simply archaic English.
For example "Fall" in America comes ye olde "Fall of the Leaf", while 'Autumn' preferred in Britain is a novel invention.
AAVE is considered by linguists to be a legitimate language/dialect
>>410715
Autumn comes from their French overlords.
>>410715
Interesting, wish I could find more on this
>>410649
Nice try nigger apologist, but I know blacks in Canada that have been here for generations that still say axe instead of ask.
>>410780
>not giving niggers credit for inventing their own language makes me a nigger apologist
Take some benzos and calm down, memester. And many nigs in Canada are in fact former US slaves.
>>410780
it's a cultural thing, dummy.
people change their speech to fit in with their perceived group. Haven't you ever had friends with thicker dialects and found yourself slipping into their accent and mannerisms?
My family comes from the deep south, but I've lived around northerners for long enough that it sounds strange for me to talk any other way. You don't inherit your dialect from your family, even if they generally have the greatest influence due to teaching you language in the first place
Well first you have to set a standard for what is a good or bad language.
Can it be used to effectively communicate?
yes..
Does it offend retarded whites who think the dictionary prescribes how words ought be used?
yes...
then imo it's good
here we don't have nigga speak like that we say
>aye cuz spot me a tin i'll pay u back au
>haha just flipped a ceffy came with biks saked it on some 19's I blocked and re-appropriated woop woop nex minit get rolled huehuehuehuehuehue
>>410649
>ax
Caxton's story about the eggs is a perfect example.
And one of theym named Sheffelde, a mercer, cam in to an hows and axed for mete and specyally he axyd aftereggys, and the goode wyf answerde that she could speke no Frenshe. And the marchaunt was angry, for he also coude speke no Frenshe, but wolde have haddeegges; and she understode hym not. And thenne at laste a-nother sayd that he wolde haveeyren. Then the good wyf sayd that she understod hym wel. Loo, what sholde a man in thyse dayes now wryte,egges, oreyren? Certaynly it is hard to playse every man, by-cause of dyversite and chaunge of langage.
Brought the printing press to England, couldn't spell asked the same was twice in one sentence...
>>411370
>Does it offend retarded whites who think the dictionary prescribes how words ought be used?
Why is this a requirement for a good language? What kind of shitskin country do you live in?
>>410692
Linguistics is within the realm of humanities
>>411447
not him but it's pretty funny though, stop being so triggered.
>>410798
How did canadian blacks inherit the speech patterns of southern US blacks?
>>411471
They're a hard science actually.
what does ''ain't'' mean anyway?
what is it a contraction of exactly?
as a non-native English speaker I've always wondered this
>>411482
How do you do experiments in linguistics? Is there an objectively correct answer to OP's question that you can get to using empirical evidence?
>>411478
>canadians escape to u.s.
>kids learn southern dialect from parents
>????
>Some present day black canadians still say axe etc
It's not rocket science
>>411488
am not/are not/is not
>>411488
"Am not," originally.
Because it doesn't follow linguistic rules, you'll still find English speakers who will tell you it's not a 'real' word.
>>411495
Excuse the alcohol influenced errors in that post
>blacks escape to canada
>kids learn southern dialect from parents
>>410629
It's a dialect, as valid as any other. I hinestly have a harder time understanding Brits
>>411492
You can without question trace their speech patterns and syntax to specific earlier English dialects so yes, there certainly is evidence.
>>411495
>>canadians escape to u.s.
Literally wat? I think you mean americans escape to canada
Anyways, most blacks today don't descend from slave escapees, so your argument falls apart.
>>411478
Because many (not all) blacks in Canada descend from US slaves? I thought someone mentioned that already ITT.
>>410629
It's a really English shitty dialect, like Jamaican.
>>410629
It's legitimate, unless you consider your English to be bad Middle English, which was just bad Old English, which was bad Proto-Germanic, which was bad Proto-Indo-European, etc.
If you can communicate effectively to members of your own group, it's language. You may not understand it well, but you'd get more sense out of ebonics than a German would out of Dutch. Does that mean Dutch isn't a language?
As for criticism of the whole "I be, you be, he be", we do the exact same thing for the preterite in standard English: "I had, you had, he had", etc.
>>411541
Can I speak in a bastardized english and claim that it's my dialect?
>>411518
That's not experimentation. If linguistics is a hard science, or a science at all for that matter, so is history.
>>411545
Literally yes that's how languages change
>>411520
Post source pls. This is interesting.
>>411528
Actually, about 90% of Canadian blacks are pretty recent arrivals from the Caribbean (70% of the total from Jamaica alone). Take out African immigrants and you've got a fraction of 10% of Canada's blacks (about 3% Canada's population) who are "Afro-Canadian", most if not all of whom came through the underground railroad.
>>411545
First of all, what does "bastardized" mean? If you read my example, the best English of today would be incomprehensible to people of the past. Today's RP is yesterday's slang.
>>411553
Remember, if someone is speaking like a mongrel or writing messily, they're just trying to invent a new language.
>>411562
So would it be wise to assume that canadian blacks who do say things like "axe" are the slave descendants?
>>411569
Why are you so salty about this lol
>>411569
Are you just trolling him? He seems to be explaining himself while you just come off as some smug asshole.
>>411545
Where else do you think the language you're speaking came from?
>>411568
Making grammatical mistakes.
>>410793
> Giving black people credit for learning something
> Not a nigger appoligist
Trollin' aside, I had no idea they learned it from their slave masters. Make sense since ebonic sounds like something you'd hear in the southern states.
>>411577
>that's stupid
Lol
Hate to break it to ya son
>>410780
>ax
>Pronounciation enPR: ăks, IPA(key): /æks/
>From Old English acsian, showing metathesis from ascian. The regular literary form until circa 1600.
>You can trace "ax" back to the eighth century. The pronunciation derives from the Old English verb "acsian." Chaucer used "ax." It's in the first complete English translation of the Bible (the Coverdale Bible): " 'Axe and it shall be given.'
>Indians in South Africa, black Caribbeans, and African-Americans use "ax."
In other words: it's was a regular variant of "ask" English-speaking people used, then abandoned it. Now only niggers retained it and retards think this means it's a nigger word.
>>411578
But there's a difference between the middle ages and today. True, languages changed a lot in the preindustrial world, because most people were illiterate hicks. English hasn't changed much in the past 100 years, for instance, save for the addition of new words.
What I'm getting at is just because languages used to evolve in the past doesn't excuse uneducated people bastardizing the english language.
>>411577
>But that's stupid.
No, you're stupid. That's not a petty turn around, I'm diagnosing your problem. Your premise was wrong to begin with, it's been explained why, you're still pursuing your premise regardless. This is being stupid.
>You do agree that each language has a fixed set of rules called grammar.
Where the fuck do you think these "rules" came from?
>>411591
What is that even supposed to mean?
>>411588
Yeah but like notice when you're speaking to a white southerners from I don't know, Tennesee, he will use the same kind of drawl and use shit like "y'all" instead of "you guys." It's just that, a southern dialect. Blacks were speaking a hardcore southern dialect and retained it even after invading the north for work.
>>411599
Why is it so important to you to 'protect' English
>>411607
>No, you're stupid.
Very mature
If iza starts typpin liek a ree-tard, this doesn't constitute a dialect. Just like if I bang my forehead on a piano, this doesn't constitute music.
Go be a relativist somewhere else.
>>411615
Because ebonics is objectively inferior to modern english.
IIRC isn't English one of the few languages that are not even standardized? Like there's no lingustic regulating body setting the rules like it's the case with French or Spanish.
In that case it's free game and some negro dialect is as legitimate as BBC English.
>>411579
That's just it, though. What's a mistake in what language isn't in another. Is it a mistake that nouns don't have gender in English? They used to 1,000 years ago. Grammatical "rules" are just conventions, always changing, gradually. Is a French speaker speaking bad Italian? Is a Spaniard speaking faulty Portuguese? Languages don't diverge overnight, it's a gradual process. Natural variation carries on to become dialectal variance, and after an arbitrary amount of mutual unintelligibility, bam, you've got a language.
>>411638
Meanwhile, it seems curious to us the notion that you can have a government 'regulate' language.
What happens when the government collapses. Does the French Language stop?
>>411639
>That's just it, though. What's a mistake in what language isn't in another
So what? You're shifting the goalposts. I'm not talking about comparing different languages. I'm talking about the bastardization of a language.
>>411627
>Very mature
As opposed you being a belligerent cunt because you can't accept that your premise is ridiculous, even though it has been adequately explained as ridiculous many times now?
>>411588
Before 1900 only 1% or so of the Northern, Midwestern and Western U.S. was black. The northeast was less than 2% black. Even New York was almost all white. Then came the "Great Migration", where millions of southern blacks moved north for better economic and social prospects.
The reason blacks use expressions like "y'all" is because they ARE southern expressions. Follow the family history of almost any black family in the northern U.S. 100 years or so and they're back in the south.
>>411634
If that's true it will die out on it's own. Why do poor people with poor grammar make you so angry?
>>411653
>As opposed you being a belligerent cunt
Disagreeing with your retarded viewpoint is not belligerence, it's rationality.
> you can't accept that your premise is ridiculous
You still haven't explained why it's ridiculous other than "ur dum".
Is :
>If iza starts typpin liek a ree-tard
a valid dialect of english? Yes or no?
>even though it has been adequately explained as ridiculous many times now?
Once again, saying "ur dum" is not an "adequate explanation".
Amerinig here, it depends on where you are.
Northerners are just retarded but southern ebonics actually has a consistent structure.
>>410629
All languages have to start somewhere.
>>411660
>If that's true it will die out on it's own.
Unlikely given current reproduction patterns...
>Why do poor people with poor grammar make you so angry?
I'm not angry at all, I'm just pointing out that bastardized english is not a dialect.
>>411652
I'm not shifting anything. Why do you claim that it's a bastardized form of English? It's its own variety. It's different, but no worse. It's as much a language as Latin or Ancient Greek.
>>411652
Listen, you dumb cracker, LANGUAGE DOESN'T WORK THE WAY YOU WANT IT TO. This version of English is nothing but a "bastardization" of every English before it. Linguistic purism and nationalism are dead on arrival and you're getting angry in the waiting room when you could be doing something else.
>>411669
All languages are bastardized versions of older languages
>>411650
>Does the French Language stop?
It becomes non-regulated, like English.
There's the Oxford dictionary which isn't regulatory though, it's basically just listing the words that exist in English, even shit like "lol" and "omg". I'm pretty sure that saying "Eyy bby u wan sum fuk" is a perfectly fine sentence in English.
![635833577220418138-Screen-Shot-2015-11-17-at-11.35.39-AM[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/uTkdbBb.jpg "635833577220418138-Screen-Shot-2015-11-17-at-11.35.39-AM[1].jpg")
>>411652
>bastardization of a language
we're doing that just fine even without ebonics
http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/nation-now/2015/11/17/oxford-dictionaries-names-tears-joy-emoji-word-year/75926360/
Tears of Joy emoji named Oxford Dictionary word of the year
>While emojis have been used since the 1990s, they have recently taken over as a mode of communication and in some cases rendered words unnecessary in certain conversations. The ‘Face with Tears of Joy” made up 20% of all emojis used in the U.K., and 17% of those in the U.S., according to SwiftKey.
>“Emojis are no longer the preserve of texting teens – instead, they have been embraced as a nuanced form of expression, and one which can cross language barriers,” Oxford Dictionaries said in a statement.
>>411662
You don't even know what a fucking dialect is, but you feel like you're ready to talk about the /objective/ qualities of languages?
>>411674
English cannot even claim linguistic purism, there is absolutely no regulation.
>>411669
It's not bastardized, that nigga dialect contains some really archaic features. Technically the more usual English is more bastardized as it underwent more changes.
>>411682
There is literally (nyuck nyuck) nothing wrong with that. In fact it's really interesting and defensible. Where's your counter-argument, other than it makes your jimmies rustled?
>>411669
>Unlikely given current reproduction patterns...
What are you saying here? That dialect is genetic or something? Ebonics is a poor person thing. Outside of rappers I guess I've never heard middle class people or upper class people use it. It's for ghetto trash. Poor people don't talk so good. Deal with it.
>>411690
Yes. OP, just learn from your mistake and don't bother asking a question when you're not ready for the answer.
>>411673
>I'm not shifting anything. Why do you claim that it's a bastardized form of English?
Because that's what it is? It's basically english with grammatical mistakes and a limited vocabulary.
Let's not pretend that ebonics is this shakespearan language which enables its speakers to convey complex ideas and emotions which cannot be conveyed by regular english.
I fucking hate this relativism.
>>411674
>Listen, you dumb cracker
I'm not white, I'm asian. You seem to be a rather irate nigger. I believe the current /pol/ terminology to describe the state of mind in which you currently find yourself is "chimp out".
> This version of English is nothing but a "bastardization" of every English before it
This is false, in fact English improved a lot starting from the rise of literacy in the 15th century. English in the 19th century was a lot more rich and complex than english in the 15th century.
>Linguistic purism and nationalism are dead on arrival and you're getting angry in the waiting room when you could be doing something else.
I don't even understand what this is supposed to mean. Is this ebonics?
>>411676
There's a difference between painting over an existing painting to make it better, and taking a piece of dogshit and smearing it all over an existing painting.
>>411709
You hate the word simply because you hate the people it's usually associated with. I mean I get it, your feefees are hurt, but why should we give a shit?
>>411714
>I don't even understand what this is supposed to mean.
Helpful tip: try learning English before you start talking about it.
>>411718
What word do I hate?
>>411714
>English in the 19th century was a lot more rich and complex than english in the 15th century.
I'm waiting for your proof.
>>411714
I don't think anyone is saying ebonics is a higher level of discourse or that you should be writing that way on an essay. Just that it meets the requirements of a dialect.
>>411714
>Let's not pretend that ebonics is this shakespearan language which enables its speakers to convey complex ideas and emotions which cannot be conveyed by regular english.
Let's not pretend that what you're speaking is this 'shakespearan' language which enables its speakers to convey complex ideas and emotions which cannot be conveyed by regular English.
>I'm not white, I'm asian.
OK, I'll bit. What kind of Asian are you?
>>411725
I'm sorry, but "you're getting angry in the waiting room" has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand. Maybe it's a nigger phrase? Anyways, I never heard it before, and I'm not sure what is its meaning.
>English
>Germanic language
>30% of vocabulary is from French and Latin
>pronounciation is absolutely nothing like other Germanic languages
>plural all fucked up due to variety of retarded suffixes (ox -> oxen; box -> boxes, etc)
>absolutely no pronounciation standard (two words written exactly the same can be pronounced differently)
The only way you could make English any more bastardized is if you started writing it in cuneiform.
It has consistent rules of syntax and phonology, how is it not a dialect/variety of English?
>>411737
It's pretty common knowledge. Anyways, a good example is the great number of words and phrases invented by Shakespeare which made their way into modern english.
http://www.shakespeare-online.com/biography/wordsinvented.html
>>411740
>Just that it meets the requirements of a dialect.
But it doesn't though, that's my point. Bastardized english is not a dialect.
>>411745
>Let's not pretend that what you're speaking is this 'shakespearan' language which enables its speakers to convey complex ideas and emotions which cannot be conveyed by regular English.
Actually it is, see above.
>OK, I'll bit. What kind of Asian are you?
Poo2loo
>>411748
Just curious if you're on the spectrum. Because not being able to grasp figurative language can be a symptom of that.
>>411778
You're the only nigger in this thread, Deepak.
>Do not try to treat this board as /pol/ with dates. Blatant racism and trolling will not be tolerated, and a high level of discourse is expected. History can be examined from many different conflicting viewpoints; please treat other posters with respect and address the content of their post instead of attacking their character.
First, I'd like to thank the few posters who know what they're talking about.
Second, so much of this shit is googleable. You're online, you can google "is AAVE a real language" and get a bunch of concise and informed answers.
Third, AAVE is in some respects superior to American English. It has the habitual be, which is a verb tense not present in American English. I'm linking the wikipedia page, because I want you people to learn.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitual_be
Fourth, in regards to whether the following is a dialect of English:
>If iza starts typpin liek a ree-tard
I think you're imitating Jar Jar Binks, who spoke in a broad approximation of a caribbean dialect. So, inasmuch as you've accurately represented a caribbean dialect, yes. Of course, you've fucked it up (how is "liek" pronounced?), probably because you have no respect for the dialect or any interest in learning about its speakers or internal logic. The reason we can tell you're speaking bad caribbean, and can tell that Jar Jar Binks was written to speak in bad carribbean, is because the dialect has its own internal rules, and when someone speaks it poorly, it hits our ear wrong.
>>411768
> Bastardized english is not a dialect.
So what in your mind constitutes a dialect?
>>411778
Not even the guy that wrote the original post but the meaning is obvious if you've got at least a room temperature IQ or don't suffer from the 'tism. I'm not black either my yellow friend.
>>411768
>invented by Shakespeare
>champion
>loanword from French
>'invented'
lel
>>411447
it's a joke m9
god damn whites are so uptight
>>411783
So it's not a dialect just because you don't like it?
>>411768
>Actually it is, see above.
OK, Shakespear. Write something that can't be conveyed in ebonics?
>Poo2loo
Yeah, I'm not even going to get into that cluster-fuck of "speaking languages poorly."
>>410715
It shits me when a Brit corrects me from couch when couch is Norman and sofa is an import from Turkey.
Or soccer, which is an English nickname for an English sport, it seems is only taboo because Americans use it, top lel.
>>411714
It's capable of conveying anything any other language can. All languages have this capacity. An individual's vocabulary says nothing about the grammatical complexity of a language.
>relativism
Because it is relative, you fucking mongoloid, there's no objective hierarchy of good and bad languages.
>>411783
>Can't speak ebonics
>Feels qualified to talk about it
This is getting sad.
>>411812
I think my favourite is when Brits take umbrage with the American/Canadian spelling/pronunciation of "aluminum", which was not only the original, coined by a Brit, but was based on a logical back formation. The "-ium" ending was popularized in Britain, and later exported to Europe, because the masses felt that element names should end with "-ium".
>>411768
>torture
>From Old French torture, from Late Latin tortura
>champion
>From Middle English, from Old French, from Vulgar Latin *campio, *campionem (“champion, combatant”), from Medieval Latin campio (“combatant in a duel, champion”), from Frankish *kampijō (“fighter”), from Proto-Germanic *kampijô (“fighter, warrior”)
>cater
>From Middle English catour (“buyer”), from Middle English acatour, from Old French achater (“to buy, to purchase”)
>label
>From Middle English label (“narrow band, strip of cloth”), from Old French label, lambel (Modern French: lambeau)
>bet
>From 16th century criminal slang, likely from abet or Old English bætan (“to make better”)
>compromise
>From Middle French compromis, from Medieval Latin, Late Latin compromissum (“a compromise, originally a mutual promise to refer to arbitration”), prop. neuter of Latin compromissus, past participle of compromittere (“to make a mutual promise to abide by the decision of an arbiter”)
>assassinate
>From assassin + -ate, after Middle French assassiner
>mimic
>From Latin mimicus, from Ancient Greek μιμιkός (mimikós, “belonging to mimes”)
>critic
>From Middle French critique, from Latin criticus, from Ancient Greek kριτιkός (kritikós, “of or for judging, able to discern”)
Seriously nigger?
>>411835
Because it 'sounded more Greek.'
Why haven't the Brits gotten around to pronouncing it "Platinium?"
If ebonics isn't a legitimate language, then neither is Quebecois French.
>>411802
shieeeeeet
>>411871
>empress
Empress of what, the cotton plantation? Are blacks the only people who do this shit?
>>411702
>word of the year
>it's actually a symbol
>>411901
Are you fucking autistic or something? You've never seen people with usernames/nicknames like "king" or "emperor"?
>>410629
It's a dialect of English, not a language of its own.
>>411945
>>411945
>pretends to never heard of people calling themselves empress
>names a group of people who call themselves empress
It's like books wouldn't even make a dent
If Cockney is a dialect instead of just uneducated people being stupid, why not ebonics?
(the answer is, neither should be validated)
>>411969
My man
>>411961
TOP KEK he deleted his post, the absolute autist!
>>412015
I got a warning and the autistic hotpocket deleted it.
>>411969
>talks shit about those who didn't waste huge amounts of money getting a masters in english
>still can't use a fucken comma
>language prescriptivists
