Any history of political/economical contacts between the Incas and the Mayas?
How connected were the premcolumbian people of America?
>>409144
They raided each other for human sacrifices.
>>409144
The Maya were no longer really relevant at all by the time the Incas were a thing. Plus, they were a collection of city-states too busy feuding with each other to go that far south.
The Aztec Empire had some distant contact and trade with the Incas, but basically the relations between the Aztecs and the Incas were like those between Rome and India: they were vaguely aware of the others' existence, but as far as they were concerned that was basically the edge of the world.
>>409158
The greeks were kinda like that it didn't prevent individuals from trading with India and other far reaches of the world much later on.
I assumed the Aztecs weren't big on trade but how was the trade network of pre columbian America? Did they maintain sea lanes running for thousands of kilometers along the coast or was it limited to caravans and intermediaries, and which other states were involved?
It's hard to find literature on the subject.
>>409150
No they didn't. Panama is such a shit place that there still aren't roads in the Darién Gap. That would involve going from the Yucatan to the Andes on foot or hoping your shitty canoe doesn't get fucked. There are easier way to get slaves.
>>409183
>The greeks were kinda like that it didn't prevent individuals from trading with India and other far reaches of the world much later on.
The Maya did have extensive sea trade, mostly along the coast of the Yucatan but as far off as the Caribbean and South America. They also had some trade with peoples of what would now be the American Southwest, but they didn't have any with the Incas or any other Andeans AFAIK. At least, not that I've ever read about.
Actually the Aztecs were really big on trade. A pretty significant part of the Aztec middle-class was a class of traveling merchants who acted as spies and diplomats for the government. They also had a pretty big interconnected network of well-maintained, regularly-patrolled roads with rest stops to facilitate trade.
>I assumed the Aztecs weren't big on trade
Actually, the Aztecs were really big on trade. Like, honestly, that was part of the basis of the Aztec Empire; a trade network/extortion racket that benefited, and revolved around, the Triple Alliance. They didn't really interfere much with the day-to-day runnings of states and peoples that they conquered. Instead, they demanded tribute, and trade agreements that benefited the Aztec Triple Alliance.
Speaking of which, and sorry to go on a tangent, but generally the way an Aztec conquest worked was like this: they would send an ambassador, usually a middle-class merchant, to meet with the leader of a given city-state and offer them "protection", in exchange for a tribute of gold and precious stones, and favorable trade agreements. The leader would be given 20 days to decide. If they refused, more ambassadors would be sent, and instead of benefits, they would talk about the destruction the Aztecs would unleash upon their city if they refused, then they would give them another 20 days. If they still refused, the Aztec army would be sent in, the city-state destroyed, and the people taken as slaves. And that's basically how the Aztec Empire worked.
>>409219
Fuck, that second paragraph was supposed to have been removed or merged with the third one. In my defense, the quick-reply window is tiny.
>>409219
20? I heard they worked with a base 20 numbering system.
Outside of all the well known Mezo American city states, what were the other entities these Mayans and Aztecs traders would interract with? Were there organized states and mercantile institutions outside on the coasts of south America, the Caribbean and in North America?
The Incas were still fairly close toward the end when you think about it. More so than the Romans and Indians. How come envoys were never sent and they never looked into each other's geopolitics a whole lot more? The only way I see for this disinterests would be in there were other more important states in between.
Were do you get your info from btw.
>>409224
You can drag and expand it if you are in a desktop
>>409219
>they would send an ambassador, usually a middle-class merchant, to meet with the leader of a given city-state and offer them "protection", in exchange for a tribute of gold and precious stones, and favorable trade agreements. The leader would be given 20 days to decide. If they refused, more ambassadors would be sent, and instead of benefits, they would talk about the destruction the Aztecs would unleash upon their city if they refused, then they would give them another 20 days. If they still refused, the Aztec army would be sent in, the city-state destroyed, and the people taken as slaves. And that's basically how the Aztec Empire worked.
how were these people so fucking metal
>>409242
>Outside of all the well known Mezo American city states, what were the other entities these Mayans and Aztecs traders would interract with? Were there organized states and mercantile institutions outside on the coasts of south America, the Caribbean and in North America?
Well I know they traded with Puebloans and, to a lesser extent, other peoples of the American Southwest (though, for the most part, the Aztecs saw the peoples of the northern deserts (or rather, the non-Puebloan nomadic ones) as dirty naked savages and literally called them Dog People, despite acknowledging that their own ancestors were the very same dirty naked desert-dwelling savages).
Regarding mercantile institutions and states in the Caribbean and the northern coast of South America, I don't really know much. I don't imagine the Arawakan peoples or the Diquis culture (who I'll admit I know next to nothing about) were organized enough to have what you'd really call a mercantile institution.
>The Incas were still fairly close toward the end when you think about it. More so than the Romans and Indians. How come envoys were never sent and they never looked into each other's geopolitics a whole lot more? The only way I see for this disinterests would be in there were other more important states in between.
Well, that is true, but one big thing to remember is that there were no horses.
>Were do you get your info from btw.
I can't recall where exactly I read the 20 days thing specifically, but good sources on the Aztecs are "Aztec Warfare: Imperial Expansion and Political Control", "Handbook to Life in the Aztec World", and of course the Codices.
About the Maya, the best book that I know of is "Maya: Divine Kings of the Rain Forest", "Yucatan Before and After the Conquest", and, about trade specifically, "The Ancient Maya Marketplace".
>>409309
I guess, I just never think about it.
>>409315
You should see the Moche lol.
>>409335
Thanks. I wish more new something about it but it's like the entire world never seem to have given a damn about the connections between pre columbian civilizations.
It almost looks taboo.
Actually these tribes were similar to the greeks. And they had agile warriors that would run all the way up to Central America to relay messages of commerce. In the highlands the most precious commodity was salt. So this forced incas to trade to maintain the health of their society. Also legends speak of several native american tribes that had seafaring experience. They would trade with other nations, agricultural products and trinkets. The oldest mummies are not found in Africa but in Latin America. Some say they traded Coca plants all the way to Africa, Egypt. Which is why some mummies have traces of cocaine on them. Others speculate Archaeologists were consuming cocaine to keep them up long hours with little food. Another speculation is that Archaeologists would hire natives americans to perform embalming, desecration of the dead rituals on Egyptian mummies so as to protect them from torments of the afterlife. Since egyptian mummies were said to often have spiritual protection to protect against the desecration of their tomb and eternal slumber.
>>409335
>You should see the Moche lol.
Why, what were they up to? Really uneducated about American history.
>>410226
Even back in the day, they had peaceful slumber laws.
>>409183
>I assumed the Aztecs weren't big on trade but how was the trade network of pre columbian America? Did they maintain sea lanes running for thousands of kilometers along the coast or was it limited to caravans and intermediaries, and which other states were involved?
>>409219
The Inca and their predecessors (Moche, Sican, etc.) also maintained pretty impressive sea routes. Their foundation myth is based on a mythical sailor and you get some really fuckin' cool killer whale pottery.
Inca and their predecessors had extensive road systems that weren't as big but otherwise not-quite-as-good-as Rome but almost.
The linking factor between the Inca and the rest of NA seems to have been Ecuadorian emerald and jade. The Kogi peoples, while having a very unique belief system in their own rights have shadows and echoes of both Inca and greater Meso/NA concepts.
To add to >>409335's reading list on the Maya:
>Mayan Political Science
https://mega.nz/#!0UBimRTT!1vFFGOCJzlSq65dfmRBMlbAehuWhvSDZWgfOFiW6lo4
More about ideology overall, though I think it touches on trade in spots.
>>410406
hey hey respect the citi zen.
>>410249
Essentially their life depended on seasonal rains given they were in the desert of Peru out by the coast. If it didn't rain, society started to collapse and they went through various cycles of this.
El Purgaotrio and the Sican complex burnt to the ground, a few times, probably due to internal riots on things not going their way; loss of crops and increase of sacrifice leads to instability.
A lot of those problems were resolved once you had the well established Inca empire to help get food provisions in and out of the areas. The road infrastructure helped.
Moche killer whale art pic related, forgot it last post.
>>410445
Tumi, ritual beheading axe for the Moche and Sican. The gold finish is the produce of an alloy called 'tumbaga' which is mostly silver and bronze with a bit of gold added in and acid plated to piece.
The major Sican complex, iirc, is set up in the image of a Tumi, that's how important constant human sacrifices were. Not only did the build huge temples in which to do it, but the topography of the temple layout was in the image of the sacrificial instrument.
Another complex was set up in the image of some sort of bird. Think like Nazca but with a town that's now been obliterated and eaten up by the sands.
It's a thousand miles between the northernmost Incan land and the southernmost Aztec or Mayan.
Are they going to travel a thousand miles by canoe? For what?
>>410490
Big time.
>There are several theories as to what caused the demise of the Moche political structure. Some scholars have emphasised the role of environmental change. Studies of ice cores drilled from glaciers in the Andes reveal climatic events between 536 to 594 AD, possibly a super El Niño, that resulted in 30 years of intense rain and flooding followed by 30 years of drought, part of the aftermath of the climate changes of 535–536. These weather events could have disrupted the Moche way of life and shattered their faith in their religion, which had promised stable weather through sacrifices.
>>410505
>super El Niño, that resulted in 30 years of intense rain and flooding followed by 30 years of drought
Fuck man, as a geographer who has a background in climatology the thought of this happening now and the wider consequences blow my mind. What we've had this year is one of the strongest El Nino's recorded but another three decades of this would cause massive problems across the world currently let alone at a period without such advanced technology or in a non-globalised world. Makes me wonder what other effects it had on indigineous populations across the wider Pacific.
Thanks for the replies man, this is one of the best threads i've seen on /his/.
Also, anyone having issues with 4chan? This must have been my 30+ attempt at posting this reply.
>>410523
The board vanished for a moment but that's about it.
The effects on the strata when doing archaeology (my background, though I've not dug there) are visible and profound.
I'm not sure what effects that climatic period had on the rest of the world.
Incidentally that time would have been around when Bon and Buddhism started to meld into Vajrayana.
>>410485
>its 6 thousand miles between the easternmost European land and the Westernmost Chinese or Indians
>Are they going to travel a thousand miles by camel? For what?
>>410445
>A lot of those problems were resolved once you had the well established Inca empire to help get food provisions in and out of the areas. The road infrastructure helped.
Was there really nothing of the the sort for thousand of years before? Its like you had all these tribes in a vaccum then suddenly a random tribes chimps out and makes an Empire in 100 years.
Or did they had prior Empires and large states prior to that who crumbled like the Roman Empire and led to centuries of backwardness?
I'm asking for the Andeans specifically.
>>410523
The climatic events of 535-536(?) are thought to be the main cause of the demographic collapse of the native Uralic populations and consequently the quite unopposed migration of Slavs into modern European Russia.
Great thread by the way guys, it's a joy to lurk it.
>>410545
>Incidentally that time would have been around when Bon and Buddhism started to meld into Vajrayana.
>>410574
>The climatic events of 535-536(?) are thought to be the main cause of the demographic collapse of the native Uralic populations and consequently the quite unopposed migration of Slavs into modern European Russia.
The potential links and wider consequences from this El Nino event are incredibly interesting.
>>410569
More of an ongoing development. You get these foot and llama paths through the desert that wear down into half decent roads. Groups expand them through the hills mountains and countrysides. Eventually you get a polity with both the need and the political will to connect them and bolster the ones that don't have decent infrastructure.
Out in the Andes proper it seems the limit factor was altitude for a long while until the surrounding areas developed enough infrastructure to support actual settlements on the mountain tops.
>>410574
Very interesting; I host the occult thread of folks ever wanna pop in.
>>410581
Sadly I know only about the part linked with the pre-Slavic history of East Europe/West Siberia.
It does seem to be one of the global changers of history in the last two millenniums tho. Check out gumilevica . org/com where a famous Russian scientist tried to reconstruct the climatic patterns of Central Asian steppes and link it with the eras of outward expansion by the local nomads.
>>410586
Should do that, sadly my normie life doesn't let me lurk as much as I would want. Despite everything this is quite surely the best board.
>>410608
>my normie life doesn't let me lurk as much as I would want. Despite everything this is quite surely the best board.
This, by a fucking mile.
>>410586
Was there much going on in the general region the Inca were in back during the 11th century, or was it just tribes herding llamas?
>>409335
>Moche
This is gold
>>410632
>11th century
Cusco? Would have been a handful of villages at the time but they were getting their shit together real fuckin' fast at that point.
We don't have an actual date on this guy but it's thought he arose between the 12th and 13 c. so you'd better believe some interesting shit was happening in the decades leading up to his rise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manco_C%C3%A1pac
>>410651
>rare Proto-Incan Pepe from the Lambeyque Valley ca. 475.
>>410654
Wikipedia is telling me the tribe got together in the 12th.
>>410665
Wikipedia will also tell you the possibility of early 13th:
> Prescott, W.H., 2011, The History of the Conquest of Peru
>>410651
They sure were some kinky bastards
Moche pottery is great desu
>>410445
>A lot of those problems were resolved once you had the well established Inca empire to help get food provisions in and out of the areas. The road infrastructure helped.
Not really, if you asked a Tucume or Sican they'd hate Incas and may think they were better under Chimu Control.
The Moche were really similar to the Greeks as they never formed a country until the very end of their civilization. From there is that Yampalleq or Sican kingdom arise. On the south, after Wari (Aymara culture on the south) colapse Chimor gained independence and the conquer Sican.
Also Moche had commerce with Nazca on the South and Manta on the north.
>>410632
If by "general region" you mean "Central Andes", then sure thing, anon. Earliest civilisations (Norte Chico) began in 3000 BC and developed later. Some of them survived quite late, for example the Chimor Kingdom was conquered as late as 1493. Incas weren't the first empire either. Picrel is Wari-Tiwanaku Empire, which collapsed in 12th century.
If you were talking abot Cusco Valley specifically, then yes, too. Killke culture, which built Saksaywaman, inhabited the valley before Incas came there.
>>411914
>Tiahuanaco Wari Confederation
I wonder how it was that time.
>>410434
>The linking factor between the Inca and the rest of NA seems to have been Ecuadorian emerald and jade.
I remember from the pre-hispanic american class that the andeans also loved the Spondylus shell. Peoples from modern Ecuador sailed ended up to the Sea of Cortés to get it as they over exhausted nearer sources.
Also iirc this andean use of the spondylus isn't found in Mesoamerica, despite what I said earlier.
>>410569
Huari and Tiwanaku were two big empires before the Incans, but collapsed centuries before the Incans even started to be a thing. The already mentioned moches and others were not empires, but very developed.
It was more like golden age-collapse-golden age-collapse. But no andean state had the hability of the Incan in redistributing food, probably because no state before them achieved the same degree of direct interventionism.
>>412386
>Spondylus shell
They were apeshit about it, I've got a few Spondylus beads. I think it played a role as some kind of reincarnation symbol.
I don't think its use really climbed North.
The whole Ecuadorian jade and emerald thing isn't really an academic feelpinion; the trace element analysis conforms with what we know about those particular stones from Ecuador.
>>411798
Sure they resented things and if asked a Sican they'd be pissy about Inca, IJS that whole areas was way less vulnerable to the collapse cycle mentioned here >>412433 after the Inca centralization of infrastructure (though it was getting p. impressive toward the end anyhow).
Pardon completely glossing over Chimu and Wari, Chimu I'd forgotten about and Wari I constantly confuse with Warao in my head.
>>412433
It's probably a poor mental picture to paint but I always liken it to Greek polities before they started to confederate, at least in my head.
These cats knew what they were on about but just didn't get fuckhuge.
>>412477
>Spondylus shell
>When thorny oysters, Spondylus, show up, Peruvians know an El Niño is coming.
http://forces.si.edu/elnino/01_01_04.html
>>409144
So any new info on the pyramids from the Caral Supe valley?
>>409144
no iroquois on that map?
Apparently there was some sort of economic contact with Incas and Polynesians
Probably bullshit though
>>409219
>a trade network/extortion racket that benefited, and revolved around, the Triple Alliance
is the triple alliance tenochtitlan, texcoco, and tlacopan?
>>412477
talking about jade and emeralds...if my greatgrandpapa would've never lost those 800 sq miles or so of land in a poker game. I would definitely be a miner, today.
>>409144
>Mapuches in Bueno Aires
Bullshit
This thread is awesome! I been reading the Aztec creation story repeatedly the last month trying to get a real grasp and meaning from it. It's so fascinating! Anyone else read then Five Suns creation story or the Hero Twins story?? Do you think the Northern Natives from US territories are closely related to Aztec, Maya, Toltec, Inca or Olmec? And hands down are the greatest civilizations of the Americas mainly Mesoamerican?
>>409144
bump
The Aztecs knew about the Incas and it was actually a Mesoamerican faglord who guided the Spaniards by sea to Incan territory.
The problem for the Mesoamerican cultures is that between them and South America were the Chibchas (CR + Panamá + Colombia) who hated them and would even trade with them. The Chibchas had sea contact with the Caribbean island and the tribe of the Pacific coast of today's CR and Panamá had more contact by see with the Chibchas tribes of the North of Ecuador than with the Chibcha tribes near them by land. The trade with the Andinoamerican and the Interamerican tribes was constant, thats why you can find Llama bones and sculptures even in Costa Rica, something that led the Spaniards to believe there were those and other kinds of animals there.
Also
Chibcha art >>>>>>>>> everything else
Post reconstructions
Pic related is a reconstruction of Sacsayhuaman near Cuzco.
>>416261
its so fucking weird that civilizations like this suddenly popped up around the world.
>>413389
Why would it be bullshit?
Look up sweet potato dating on the Cook Islands.
Anyway, why aren't there games on the Aztecs, Moche and Inca? They'd be like an Egyptian version of Red Dead Redemption crossed with Dark Souls.
My question is when is South America and Latin America getting into video game development?
>>416287
>suddenly
Nigga what the fuck
Inca culture didn't pop out of nowhere.
Picrel is Caral-Supe civilisation, contemporaneous with Egypt and Sumer
>>416628
thats my point, they popped up on different continents with no contact, very similar to eachother
>>409144
The evidence suggests, as regards the exchanges of domesticated crops between South America and Central America, suggest that there was in the past, some kind of contact between the people of these regions, probably intermitent.
But absolutely nothing indicates a contact between Incas and Mayans. Consider also that when Cuzco reached its zenith, the Mayans were a decadent civilization, dispersed, and under the influence of its neighbors.
>>416881
Because the ice age was coming to an end (technically still is) and for the first time the climate was stable enough to let agricultural societies to grow.
>>416315
Probably never. At best you might get some shitty visual novel eventually.
>>416628
That's what I don't understand where the Incas Empire comes from. You have had civilization just as old as egypt but its only in the 15th century that someone unifies the place and starts doing real politik and all that stuff.
>>418479
We have thriving video game industry growing in Chile. The best known would be ACE Team, developers of Zeno Clash. Mexicans developed Kerbal Space Program, too, but i don't know if they are really mexicans or just blokes living in the USA with mexican heritage.
>>416315
Age of Empires 2 have Aztecs, Mayans and Incas. The Aztecs have their own campaign, too.
>>409219
This sounds vaguely like the Persians.
>>420235
it does
