Was reading about the Yugoslav war. How should the Serbs had countered the islamists in Bosnia and Kosovo without being bombed by the west because of genociding them?
>>403266
By not genociding them and merely dismantling their capacity to organise.
>>403269
>dismantling their capacity to organise
how? the islamist self-proclaimed governments had an extreme support in the muslim population of Kosovo and Bosnia going against them was going against the muslim population itself.
>>403266
25 year rule
>>403288
what's that?
>>403266
KLA wasn't Islamist. In fact they had Marxist-leninist roots. Allegedly they had some Islamist connections, but mostly because of funding.
Also, Bosniaks were absolutely secularized before the war. They had very little interest in Islam, let alone radicalism. They only got radicalized, after being genocided and ethnically cleansed during the war. Mostly because the Saudis were sending their wahabists to Bosnia and some funding. Still though, Bosniaks remain pretty much secular today.
>>403290
>Still though, Bosniaks remain pretty much secular today.
I doubt it, I was reading a lot and the islamist radicalism was not potent in communism but their political leaders were hard-core islamists, even Osama Bin Laden writes about meeting them and supporting their cause. After communism died they started with their islamistic campaigns.
How do you explaine that Bosnia and Kosovo after the war, that means after they got their islamic states, are still not 'secular' enough to prohibit ISIS recruitment, and that the most ISIS recruits come from those regions.
Also why couldn't the islamist leaders of Kosovo and Bosnia live an european state like Yugoslavia, but wanted their own islamic states, attacking the police and the army thus starting the repercussion measures and the war agaisnt them.
>>403305
With Bosnia being a special case, since only half of it is islamic, the other half is european.
>>403290
>after being genocided
>and ethnically cleansed
Pro tip: Srebrenica =/= Bosnian war
All of the sides were doing really shady shit before the events at Srebrenica unfolded. Srebrenica was a piss poor response to Naser Oric's attacks. The Bosniaks were already radicalized locally in different areas before any major shit went down.
>>403281
...yes, because without that organization and resistance they all would have been massacred. They literally had their backs to the wall, nowhere to go, and extremism was a way to survive.
>>403307
>religion founded by a kike who never set foot outside of Palestine
>european
>>403305
I'm literally in Bosnia now, we're probably as religious as most Serbs. I've met plenty of people and have many family members who say ISIS should all be killed. Hell, my uncle says that anybody who goes to mosque regularly should be shot. Then again there is a guy who says that going to dzummah on Friday is more important than anything else.
>>403266
>How should the Serbs had countered the islamists in Bosnia and Kosovo.
The same way we will counter islamists in the EU.
protip: we can't, if you go against islamists, the muslim population will marginalise because islamists are their leaders (secular muslims exist, but they are a minority, in Bosnia as much as in the EU). When the muslim population marginalises you'll have a deep schism as you had in Bosnia and Kosovo, this schism will encourage the muslim population to fight for their own governance since they do not trust the european ones, this fight will go through terror acts agaisnt the police and the army (also seen in Kosovo and Bosnia) aswell as against the christian minorities where the muslims are the majority. The majority christians will ofcourse answer to this threat, paramilitary bands will form (PEGIDA going militant), since the goverment is paralysed (Merkel, Oland, all idiots not understanding the situation and not knowing how to act). You have a civil war.
>>403305
I'm from Croatia. I have met a lot of them. The vast majority drink alcohol and eat pork. If it weren't for their silly names you couldn't tell us a part.
>>403332
Yes but Croats and Muslims are traditional allies, you supported their islamistic ideologies in the world war 2 aswell as in the last war. This is a different case between Serbs and Muslims, which always fought against each other, and where no trust ever existed.
>>403340
Bosniaks were never radicalized. They never had much interest in Islamism. That only started in the 90s. And even then it was only to a certain degree. They are mostly secular even today.
During Tito they were the most fervent defenders of Brotherhood and Unity (google it) idea. In the 90s everyone around them turned to nationalism. They felt betrayed, and turned to Islamism.
>>403349
>Their new found Islamism
so you say they are secularised, but they have a new found islamism that they support. I am from Slovenia and was in Sarajevo after the war, and although it didn't certainly look like Arabia, I still didn't feel like in secular country, a lot of girls had hijabs, a lot of mosques with calling to prayers.
This however may be as secular as it gets in a muslim country, so I am probably awaiting too much by expecting them to be an european styled country. However seeing scenes like picrelated really would make me uncomfortable to live in Sarajevo as a christian.
>>403357
>During Tito they were the most fervent defenders of Brotherhood and Unity (google it) idea. In the 90s everyone around them turned to nationalism.
Well to be honest, that is a blatant lie, since they were fighting on the side of the Axis. It is impossible for the muslim population to be the most fervent defenders of communism or titoism, since communism almost banned all religions, muslims in Bosnia exclusively identify themselves through religion, so that is a big attack on their national identity, also Bosniaks fought on the side of the third-reich against yugoslavia which labeled them de facto the enemy of the state same as the Croats.
Islamism was not on the surface of the muslim population of Yugoslavia in the time of Tito since forbidden. But it was latent and because banned, extremly radical. The president of war-time muslims in Bosnia Alija Izetbegovic, was a radical islamists that was imprisoned by Titos communist regime because of spreading islamist religions propaganda.
>>403266
the serbs, that is, karađić and mladić, did not start off countering the islamists, since there were NO islamists in yugoslavia, it was unheard of, and the majority of bosnian forces, in sarajevo siedge, and all the fucked up fighting in the hills and forests and village after village, were ordinary ex-yugos, who would as soon use the pages of bible/koran/kapital as toilet paper or to roll a joint, not even out of a drive for blasphemy, just practicaly they didnt care
they started caring very soon, as soon as the mass killing started, they had to rally around something, they had nothing to rally around, tito was long dead in every sense, their ethnic and political identity was confusing at best, so some of them rallyed around religion, same as with croat nationalists and serb radicals
saudis sent some aid there, and with that aid came vehabi mujahedin, and at that point in time bosnians greeted them as they would greet a international relief force or peace-corps, someone from somewhere was helping them, they didnt care who or why
some bosnian fighters converted(because even muslims have to convert to vehabism, same as a katholic would have to convert to be... anabaptist or wathever) and became mujahedin, and there were even some local mujahedin regiments, but on the whole the mentality was radicaly different from the balkan and these guys didnt get along with anyone, there was even a short war amongst the bosnian muslims paralel to the one with serbs and the sporadic outbreaks with croats, and these foreign fuckers did much of the fighting against other ethnic bosnian muslims
>>403391
>the serbs, that is, karađić and mladić, did not start off countering the islamists, since there were NO islamists in yugoslavia
By Bruno Waterfield in The Hague
- 11:46AM GMT 01 Mar 2010
Radovan Karadzic beginning his defence against 11 counts of genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity, he traced the origins of the conflict to the rejection by Bosnia's Muslim leadership of power-sharing proposals.
He accused a “conspiracy core” of fundamentalists of having tried to create an Islamic state with Western support. ”They had an Islamist goal. They wanted 100 per cent power as it was in the days of the Ottoman Empire. There were fundamental goals changing the destiny of a whole region,” he said. “They want Islamic fundamentalism and wanted it from 1991 to 1995.”
-- -- --
He seems to have had a different opinion
>>403266
>How should the Serbs had countered the islamists in Bosnia and Kosovo
Serbs had no control over Bosnia or Kosovo they lost that control in Tito Yugoslavia. Tito gave the governance of Kosovo to Albanians which are muslims and like muslim Bosnians couldn't culturaly integrate into the european state order. This was ONLY possible in communism, since in communism they had no religios or national freedom nor their own identity, they were pressured into acting like Yugoslavs which they culturaly weren't. Kosovo Albanians were fighting against Yugoslavs even in the time of Tito with their separatist movements, when Tito died they just went more militant. Bosnian muslims fought against Yugoslavia in the second world war, however in Titos Yugoslavia their whole political elite was eliminated or in prison, so only the obedient communist 'muslims' were allowed in the societys mainstream. The first muslim president of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the war and after the war, was such a prisoner of Titoist regime that was accused of spreading islamist thought through his publications he also had a family history of coming from a quisling family that supported the SS troops and were fighting against Yugoslavia. It is no wonder that such a person in particular was elected president of the muslim part of Bosnia, when it was necessary to destroy Yugoslavia from within as it was once the case in the second world war.
>>403415
please, do not take this as an insult, as i am realy trying my best not to start openly insulting you as best as i can, but, you are seriously quoting something karađić said in the hague court, implying his statements in such occasions and on such subjects have weight or merit, and by doing this you proove you have no knowledge of who or what karađić is, and so your taking part in this discussion is kind of pointles and irrelevant
>>403438
>and by doing this you proove you have no knowledge of who or what karađić is
I do not know who or what Karadzic was, but you saying that he didn't fight against islamism nor did he know what islamists are, when he himself states that this was his main cause of going to war against the muslim leadership. If I have to choose what a figure in that historical situation has thought I would rather believe what the figure himself states than what an anon on 4chan believes he thought. This is common reason.
>>403266
Doesn't this fall under 25 year limit?
Anyway, Serbs didn't fight Islam in Bosnia and Kosovo, they fought for keeping Bosnia and Kosovo within Yugoslavia.
>>403269
There was literally nothing Serbs could have done that let them keep Kosovo and not provoke bombing after Srebrenica. NATO was against them from the start.
In Bosnia, settlement was reached in 1992 (before the war) that split Bosnia into Serb, Croatian and Bosniak controlled autonomous regions, but Izetbegović retracted his agreement after US encouragement. If Izetbegović wasn't a greedy fuck who thought to become ruler of his own mini-Yugoslavia (because all complaints made against Yugoslavia could be applied to Bosnia, except change Bosniaks for Serbs as dominant ethnic group) war could be avoided and thus a lot of dead for what was ultimately Bosniak defeat, because Serbs got EVEN MORE territory than the original settlement gave them and this time it was a single unit, instead of spread-out enclaves.
>>403447
except this is Karađić
Karađić
dude spent the last decade before arrest living as a bio-energy healer
he is covered in every oil you can imagine if you get that saying, it would not be wise to take his word on what time it is or what date is it today
>>403468
>he is covered in every oil you can imagine if you get that saying
ad hominems are false arguments.
also he is a person directly responsible for the situation being discussed here, every statement he makes, why he acted as he acted, has more validity than any of our individual presumptions regardless what our opinion about the person are, thus ad hominem.
>>403473
no m8 its not a false argument, its a important historical fact, its hard to even understand certain events without taking into account the characters of the characters
there was hardly any anti-islamist rhetoric in the begining, the operative terms were things like all serbs in one land, all serb lands in one state etc... and the operative logic was genocidal from day one, not just towards bosnian muslims but catholics as well, its just that croats got organised and armed better and sooner so they made truces and seas fires, while bosnians just got rekt
obviously being caught and placed in court he will retcoon everithing he can, align himself with some curent logic of fight against islamism etc... but its all bullshit
>>403266
>How should the Serbs had countered the islamists in Bosnia and Kosovo without being bombed
They should have supported the pro-yugoslav parties in their muslim national bodies by active propaganda (something EU and USA do in their unions daily, especially the USA). This would not marginalise muslims from Yugoslavia and create a governing body within the muslims that support the Yugoslavian union rather than fighting against it.
Serbs as the most populous people in Yugoslavia went nationalistic instead of federalistic marginalising other nationalities (especially the muslim ones) and encouraging them to also go nationalistic instead of federalistic (with muslims nationality is the same as religion, thus nationalism is tied to islamism), they destroyed their own position inside of Yugoslavia. Since they were the only nationality that could sustain the country, they practically destroyed themselves through false policy and bad politicians.
>>403499
>Serbs as the most populous people in Yugoslavia went nationalistic instead of federalistic marginalising other nationalities
Why does it feel like we are doing the same shit in the EU now, with Le Pen, Orban, etc.
Gather round, children. It's time to watch Stolen Kosovo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1dtOAGD0pk
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-221295
>>403266
>How should the Serbs had countered the islamists in Bosnia and Kosovo
Once they got support from the USA, it was impossible. Look at mujaheedins in Afghanistan against SSSR or now ISIS that came out of USA funding rebels against Bashar-Al-Asad.
>>403557
/thread
once the americans got involved it was impossible, and americans were involved in supporting the islamists against communist states since afghanistan, bosnia and kosovo situatios were just the modus operandi they had since the 80's that worked perfectly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FaPuBUY558
>>403557
>>403563
Serbs held out for Russia, who declined to get involved.
>>403415
>Muslim Genocider says they were more evil than he is
>>403511
>Why does it feel like we are doing the same shit in the EU now, with Le Pen, Orban, etc.
What do you think. You have terrorism in EU, people start marginalising muslims, everytime you see a muslim non-european you have a inner fear is this guy sane or is he going jihadi. A crisis happens, nationalistic parties start winning the elections, muslims in EU become second class citizens, only way out is by supporting their own radicals since the trust into a common union of citizens is being shitted on through right wing policies. EU starts falling apart, nationalistic parties want to take care of their own muslim population, thus ignoring EU legislative. EU falls apart and someone profits.
>>403581
based czechs
>>403601
>EU falls apart and someone profits.
>someone profits
>'someone'
why are we afraid to say it?
>>403377
> that is a blatant lie, since they were fighting on the side of the Axis
Yes, they fought on the Axis side because they were part of NDH. They had no vote in that. That has nothing to do with religion. Bosniaks joined the Ustashe because of chetniks and the fact that they were being slaughtered in Bosnia.
> It is impossible for the muslim population to be the most fervent defenders of communism or titoism
Yet they were. Just as the reasons for joining ustashe were pragmatic, so was their support of Tito. Communists were anti-nationalistic. Serbs and Croats in BiH were still nationalistic after WW2 and had little feelings for the newly formed Republic of BiH. The Muslim population was for the preservation of the state and they saw communists as allies for exactly that. Naturally that made them pro-Tito and pro-Yugoslav.
>muslims in Bosnia exclusively identify themselves through religion
Exactly. Islam was always an important part of their national identity. But it was only that, a cultural element. Something that distinguished them from the neighbors. Other than that it never played a major part in their life. They were well known for being less religious than Croats and Serbs in Yugoslavia. I was told by my Bosnian and Herzegovinian Croat friends that they were made fun of in the 90s for that. Before the war they didn't know what an inside of a mosque looks like and than all of a sudden they were all deeply religious. War did that. Nevertheless they are still quite secular today, although not even close to the pre-war years.
>Islamism was not on the surface of the muslim population of Yugoslavia in the time of Tito since forbidden. But it was latent and because banned, extremly radical.
Absolutely hilarious. Did I mention I was from Croatia ? If you told that to someone from former Yugoslavia who lived trough the Tito years, he would probably laugh in your face.
>>403305
Well I dont know about native Bosnians, but the immigrants we have are for the most part non-religious.
Let em secede. Balkans "states" are a communist invention used to control people, not to give them fair governance.
>>403650
Depends on which ones you're talking about.
>Before the war they didn't know what an inside of a mosque looks like and than all of a sudden they were all deeply religious. War did that.
Arab who recently converted to Islam and now goes to mosque regularly. Can vow for this. Anti-islamic sentiment towards me for looking arabic has eventually led to me becoming muslim.
>>403640
>Absolutely hilarious. Did I mention I was from Croatia ? If you told that to someone from former Yugoslavia who lived trough the Tito years, he would probably laugh in your face.
You didn't read what he said, the only mainstream 'muslim' population in Yugoslavia was the 'secular' communist population, everything else was frowned upon, banned or illiegal. Izetbegovic muslim Bosnian president, however was imprisoned because of islamism in Titos Yugoslavia that is a fact.
>Yet they were. Just as the reasons for joining ustashe were pragmatic, so was their support of Tito.
So their loyalty was not towards Yugoslavia as a state and an idea, since they were supporters of nazis and the third-reich which was against it, but when they saw that the nazis lost they supported communism out of pragmatism in order to survive. This is however not a frevent defender of communism and titoism but a mere opportunist. In otder to be a frevent defender of communism and titoism, their political elite should have been communist in the second world war, this was however not the case, their political elite was fascist.
>>403642
>but the immigrants we have are for the most part non-religious.
aren't the muslim immigrants that brought Islam to Bosnia actually the most religious. as far as I know Bosnian natives like Croats and Serbs are not so religious. Islam is not native to Bosnia, meaning that the immigrants that brought it were certainly not non-religious, else it would never become so dominant in Bosnia.
>>403665
It's not just Islam. It's easy to be irreligious when you're on top. Ever notice that all the New Atheists are pasty white dudes from the most privileged section of the most privileged society on earth?
Not even tumblring here. But seriously, what problems does Richard Dawkins have in his life?
When life gets hard though, that's when we remember we need God. That can be as a group like Muslims are facing. It can be when we're personally brought low, and in pain. Then we remember how little we are.
>>403683
Damn straight, brother.
>>403683
>When life gets hard though, that's when we remember we need God.
That is a wicked circle, because you are different the europeans are marginalising you as a different class of citizens with a culture that can't / won't integrate into the european one, this however pushes you to be even more religious and integrate even less thus deepening the schism. unfortunately this is what awaits Europe in the coming years.
>>403680
they werent exactly immigrants, no one in their right mind would immigrate to bosna, they were vehabi missionaries, as in vehabis on a mission
>>403693
>>403665 here
I actually spend a lot of time teaching muslims about how the Sunna and the Quran promote integration and tolerance on several points. It's all about the mindset you want to take.
For example, when the original muslims left to Medina, several of them started having problems with their wives talking back at them, as was the culture in Medina at the time. Muhammad(SAW) in turn told the men they had to adapt to this. In Medina, this was the way, thus the muslims were to adapt.
This is the kind of stuff I tell my brothers, but I wonder if it does anything.
>>403693
Yeah, but Europe only is this way because for a brief historical moment, they thought they were gods.
And besides, we're talking about the Yugoslav wars.
The Serbs were also making a hard swing towards orthodoxy.
>>403266
You cannot counter Islamism. It is impossible without some sort of genocide. WTF do you think will be a solution in Syria or anywhere else where there is an islamist threat.
Islamism comes from the bottom and not from the top. The most recruits come from the people themselves, poor, secluded from western societies, or bombed and hungered in their own countries by us. These islamists have their base in the people, in the civilian population, and the only posibility to counter them to the point of exterminating them is to fight agaisnt their base, which will always be against the civilians and will always end in genocide.
We may not believe it but the Europeans and the west in general already are in a war against the Islam. The Yugoslav conflict just made it obvious that their culture cannot and will not, out of their own choice integrate into the european one, they are intolerable.
>>403666
You didn't read what he said, the only mainstream 'muslim' population in Yugoslavia was the 'secular' communist population
I did answer that. They were for the most part highly secular with little interest in religion. Both the"mainstream"(whatever that is) and "non mainstream" Bosniaks.
>Izetbegovic muslim Bosnian president, however was imprisoned because of islamism in Titos Yugoslavia that is a fact.
He was a marginal figure with no support among Bosniaks until the 90s.
> since they were supporters of nazis
Bosniaks had little sympathy for NDH and even less for nazi ideology.
>This is however not a frevent defender of communism and titoism but a mere opportunist. In otder to be a frevent defender of communism and titoism, their political elite should have been communist in the second world war, this was however not the case, their political elite was fascist.
You do realize people change ? Your argument is on par with saying that some European nations never were really Christian because they adopted Christianity for pragmatic reasons. I never said that Bosniaks were fervent defenders of communism. They were fervent defenders of Brotherhood and Unity ideas. There is a huge difference. Just because it started out of pragmatic reasons doesn't mean they didn't come to accept it over time. Which they did.
>>403447
>If I have to choose what a figure in that historical situation has thought I would rather believe what the figure himself states
That's a terrible position to take when studying history. Not least because these people are likely to have a certain tunnel vision toward their 'cause' and bias in interpreting events.
> mfw USA knew crazy Serbs would chimp out and destroy Yugoslavia and USA moved in got themselves some military bases
top kek
are serbs arab-tier?
>>403721
> did answer that. They were for the most part highly secular with little interest in religion. Both the"mainstream"(whatever that is) and "non mainstream" Bosniaks.
Of course because everything else would make you land in prison, as it did.
>He was a marginal figure with no support among Bosniaks until the 90s.
But he gained great support among Bosniaks in the 90's because his ideas and policy, which were against what Titoism and Yugoslavia stood for. Ideas that landed him in prison under Tito.
>I never said that Bosniaks were fervent defenders of communism.
You did state that here >>403640
>They were fervent defenders of Brotherhood and Unity ideas. There is a huge difference. Just because it started out of pragmatic reasons doesn't mean they didn't come to accept it over time. Which they did.
As it seems when Yugoslavia was falling apart they were among the first that rooted for it seclusion thus joining the Croats and the Slovenes (interestingly their former WW2 allies) in the war against the Yugoslavian state. You have to understand, that considering the events, none of your statments seem to be valid other than in romantic sense or wishful thinking. Bosniaks never acted like what you described as defenders of Yugoslavias "Brotherhood and Unity", not in the second world where they fought against Yugoslavia together with the fascists, nor in the Yugoslav War of the 90's where they elected a Bosniak nazi sympathiser as their president and allied themselves with their former WW2 allies against Yugoslavia once again.
>>403728
>mfw USA knew crazy Serbs would chimp out and destroy Yugoslavia
Serbs were pro-yugoslavian, other nationalities were against it. You should educate yourself before entering a discussion or the Burgers are idiots meme will become more than just a meme.
>>403755
>Serbs were pro-yugoslavian,
In theory, but in practice...I'm sure the Americans expected a Serb chimp-out that would completely sever the possibility of a united Yugoslavia.
>>403726
>That's a terrible position to take when studying history.
Taking statments of historical figures describing their reason of action over nationalistic propaganda or chauvinist banter (dependent on the pro or anti position) of anonymous posters on 4chan. I'll stick with my position, thank you.
>>403680
Should have clarified. I meant Bosnian immigrants/refugees that stayed here in 1991. Im from Slovenia.
>>403767
>I'll stick with my position, thank you.
An ignorant one that sees only dichotomous alternatives.
Stay ignorant. There are plenty of external sources that one could look at but at least admit that there might be bias in all of them - whether from the common populace, the soldier, the clergy, the nobility etc. It's fine to study many but to look at one and take that sole perspective is simply stupid and counter-productive to the study of history and events.
In the case of Yugoslavia more so because being so recent and with many NGOs and foreign spectators both out and within there is a glut of contrasting views which can be considered.
>>403747
>Of course because everything else would make you land in prison, as it did.
Because of that and the reason that they genuinely didn't care for Islamism.
>But he gained great support among Bosniaks in the 90's because his ideas and policy, which were against what Titoism and Yugoslavia stood for. Ideas that landed him in prison under Tito.
He gained support because Bosniaks felt threatened by the awakening of nationalism in the neighborhood. If Yugoslavia had free elections and if it wasn't a time of nationalism's he would never have won them.
>You did state that here >>403640 (You)
Your right. I apologize. I should have been more precise. They were as communist as everyone else in Yugoslavia. Brotherhood and Unity was what was important.
>As it seems when Yugoslavia was falling apart ...
I didn't say they were the defenders of "B and U" during WW2 or the 90s. That concept was only introduced after WW2. It only played a role in Yugoslavia. They allied them self with Croats at the beginning of the war because they thought Croats wanted to preserve BiH. And some Croatians maybe did. But when it became clear Croats want their part of BiH to secede and join Croatia, they stopped being buddies. Hence the Croat-Bosniak war.
But I digress. My main point is, Bosniaks were never into Islamism until the 90s. Until thr neighbors nationalism's drove them to it. Its what most people in former Yugoslavia believe and its what most historians of this area claim.
>>403774
I won't deny that's a possibility. But you could easily just fund turbo-Serbs can get the same effect.
Civilised thread, impressed
>>403846
>But you could easily just fund turbo-Serbs can get the same effect.
Read this guys story. He was the head of the yugoslav secret service UDBA, he is famous for being the founder, together with his collegue Franjo Simatovic (amazingly a Croat), of the red berrets, a serbian paramilitary fraction known for ethnic cleansing (Srebrenica, Vukovar, Sarajevo etc.). after the war he was trialed at ICTY and documents were made public that he was working for the CIA, also ordering killing of muslim and croat civilians, then sending the mass-grave positions to the CIA during the war.
If you ever thought Yugoslav war was a clusterfuck, you don't even know how the deep the shithole went and how much you could learn about the state EU is in today.
>>403865
I was about to ask why balkans stuff is always so confusing but turns its supposed to? Thank god.
>>403874
there is a serbian proverb,
"the year here has five seasons, spring, summer, autumn, winter and war"
>>403469
>1991, start of the yugoslav conflict. still in the limit.
1989, fuckwit, year rules count the far ends of the fence.
And "the start" isn't sufficient.
>>403391
>that speech he made before the war about how the bosnian people will get deleted off the face of the earth if bosnia decides to split off from serbia
>"b-b-b-but muh karadzic dindu nuffn! god is a serb!"
>>403755
>Serbs were pro-yugoslavian, other nationalities were against it.
They were pro-Serb, they wanted their "Greater Serbia".
>>403865
>after the war he was trialed at ICTY and documents were made public that he was working for the CIA, also ordering killing of muslim and croat civilians, then sending the mass-grave positions to the CIA during the war.
Where can I read about this? Seems like something which would have been in the news.
Slightly related: How closely tied are the CIA and the NSA?
>>403266
Serb here.
Islamism got bigger support precisely because of war.
Conflict in Kosovo was primarily ethnic (Albanians vs. Serbs).
It's true Izetbegović (leader of Muslims) and his associates were Islamist, but majority of people weren't. And they still aren't.
Religion here is a complex issue, it's not really religion that is the main player, it's nationalism/tribalism/regionalism. Religion is just used to emphasize the differences.
Of course, now Islamism is growing in Kosovo and Bosnia, and also in Montenegro and Serbia among Muslims here.
>>403316
>Srebrenica
It wasn't the only mass crime of that war either.
Look, Serbs are pretty deluded people, just like Muslims, Albanians or Croats. We live next to each other so our mentality is similar.
And that mentality is ''we didn't do nothing, they were all evil''.
Reality is something else.
War in Bosnia WAS in big part caused by Muslim aspirations for unitary Bosnia.
But rise of Serbian nationalism in 80's was progenitor for revival of Croatian and rise of Muslim nationalism. Albanians were always nationalist.
You can't really blame one side in all the conflicts here. Roots are very deep, and basically, everyone fucked over everyone at least once in history.
About 90's Bosnia, I believe Serbs had the right to separate. But we didn't have right to commit war crimes, some of which were incredibly gruesome.
>>404246
>Seems like something which would have been in the news.
>>403755
>Serbs were pro-Yugoslavian
Some were, but it was a different version of Yugoslavia.
Most of Serbs felt that Yugoslavia was negative for Serbs.
Why?
Because we were scattered around 4 republics and 2 autonomous provinces. Montenegro was also brainwashed into Montenegrin identity.
When Bosnia was created for example, it had Serb plurality. In 80's, that became Muslim plurality.
1974 Constitution (which gave more rights to republics while separating Vojvodina and Kosovo from SR Serbia) was the last blow.
Then in 80's economic problems arose, while Albanians in Kosovo started with shit. Communist authorities failed to react properly, so Serbs felt we were persecuted.
This led to rise of Serbian nationalism, and that nationalism was hijacked by communists who wanted more power, like Milošević.
Real Serbian nationalists, like Vuk Drašković or Vojislav Šešelj (who was a mad idiot), were never in power. Though Šešelj cooperated with Milošević occasionally, while Drašković (who was pro-Western) was always in opposition.
Milošević was basically a power-hungry dictator and a communist, not a real Serbian nationalist.
Tuđman (Croatian leader) was also a communist, a partisan and later general in Yugoslav Army.
>>403305
>still not secular enough to prohibit ISIS recruitment
Nigga non-Muslim countries like Russia and America have ISIS recruitment. Are they too Islamist to prevent it?
>>404320
Look I'm probably biased.
I understand Muslim position here. But what can I say? They started the war. If they just chilled and waited for Milošević to lose power (which would happen sooner in that case), no war.
Now, Bosnia is a dead state.
And yes, I understand why Muslims resent us. But it seems to me they mostly don't understand why we dislike them.
As I said, Balkans is a clusterfuck.
>>404368
It's not a clusterfuck. It's quite simple. You happened to have a bunch of Ottoman loyalists on your soil ripe for extermination, as expected of you, but the US of A and its vassals generally being the enemy of Christians robbed you off that honor.
>>404398
But they are still Slavs, our own people. I don't know. I'm scared of another bloodshed here. They have their reasons, just like we have ours.
>>404368
>just chilled and waited for milošević to lose power
Hindsight is 20/20 bruh
>>404408
Balkanites who profess the Islamic faith have given up on their heritage in favor of Ottomanism. They're not Slavs, they're Turks who will pursue Turco-Islamic interests even when it conflicts with the interests of Slavs. How can you not have learned that by now? There's an entire nation of their kind just across the strait who went as far as to massacre their own ancestors.
>>404246
>They were pro-Serb, they wanted their "Greater Serbia".
"Greater Serbia" is Croato-Bosnian boogieman.
It wasn't relevant before the war started and after the war was on it was natural conclusion. I mean, if Serbs actually managed to separate from Croatia and Bosnia (the native Serbs, those who lived in those countries for centuries) it would be stupid (and unsustainable) for them to live in separate republics, so uniting with Republic of Serbia was only common sense.
Now, why Serbs wanted to separate in the first place is too bothersome to explain for me.
>>404246
Oh, and in the speech you refer to Karadžić didn't say Bosniaks will get deleted off the face of the earth if Bosnia tried to secede, but that if they try to secede there would be war and Bosniaks had no weapons or a proper army to fight, so they risk getting wiped out and that would all be on Bosniak leadership.
>>404428
>Turks
Yeah, that's the problem. But don't generalize. Plenty of Muslims aren't like that.
>>404428
Aaaaand this is the kind of thinking that allowed the genocide to happen
>>404457
The day they return to Christianity is the day they stop being like that. Otherwise they venerate this heritage of theirs.
>>404456
Because Serbs controlled basically the whole yugoslavic force
>>404439
This tribal mentality is why this section of the Balkans is always steeped in violence
>>404368
>But what can I say? They started the war.
By not wanting to be put under the same conditions as when under Tito. Those bastards!
But what can I say? The Serbs started the war because they wanted to be emperors of the Balkans instead of "just" Serbia.
>>404398
See >>404408
Bosnian Muslims are the same Slavs from before the Turks took over the majority of the Balkans, difference is that back then many Bosnians decided to switch religion to Islam from whatever they were, mainly Catholics and Orthodox Christians, because they didn't want to get dicked and treated like shit as was the case in Serbia. But nah, they're "turks" now, huehue.
>>404428
And all of Europe are sandnigger kike cunts for having a semitic religion, when they used to have the PROPER religions like the Gaul's with their druids, the Scandinavians with their Norse mythology, and of course the Romans and Greeks with their mythology.
You must be braindead or something, buddy.
>>404470
And their kind of thinking is how Slavs remained subdued for so long :^)
>>404439
>"Greater Serbia" is Croato-Bosnian boogieman.
Right, what was the cause of the war again? Something about Bosnia wanting to separate from Serbia, but Serbia wanted to be the ones in power, basically continuing Yugoslavia, or something? No wait, the Bosnians wanted to genocide the Serbs, so the Serbs swooped in to get it done first. No wait, the Bosnians had plans to invade Serbia with the Turks, but the Serbs knew this and decided to act first.
>>404456
Because the Serbs had the Yugo army, perfect for ethnic cleansing and absorption into God's favorite country.
>>404476
dumb italians with their christianity lmao, their history is a spook, italians are spooks, they need to praise jupiter tbqh familia otherwise they disgrace their TRVE ROMA ancestors
>>404486
It's clear you're Muslim, and you aren't objective at all.
Read the rest of my posts.
Also, if Muslims could leave Yugoslavia, why couldn't Serbs leave Bosnia?
>>404478
Yes, and that's why Karadžić warned them of the stupidity of trying to secede when the other side inhabits third of your country and will receive support of another country which has actual military.
But US promised Izetbegović "it's gonna be k mate" and so Bosnia seceded. In hindsight we see that US is more English than they are willing to admit.
>>404529
>It's clear you're Muslim, and you aren't objective at all.
My bad for not believing Serb is a God, mate.
>Also, if Muslims could leave Yugoslavia, why couldn't Serbs leave Bosnia?
They did? For example when the war started tons of Serbs just left Sarajevo, and then when the war ended many returned. I can't remember which part of the country it was, but some places the Serbs who left torched the areas they left behind, the Bosnians and Croats who fled didn't do this. Serbs are the ultimate dindus and they constantly excuse the war with "they started it, they did bad things too!" Serbia doesn't even acknowledge the genocide, and you're trying to play the "objective" one here? It's clear you're Serb, and you aren't objective at all.
>>404546
I acknowledge genocidal crimes that happened.
What you don't acknowledge is the fact that Serbs didn't just wake up one day and started shooting.
I'll ask again: if Muslims could separate from Yugoslavia, why couldn't Serbs separate from Bosnia?
>>404573
>I'll ask again: if Muslims could separate from Yugoslavia, why couldn't Serbs separate from Bosnia?
Let me rephrase your question, Serb: If Serbs could separate from Yugoslavia, why couldn't Bosnia separate from Serbia?
>>404582
You could. However, Serbs had every right to do the same.
Bosnians don't exist as a nation. Bosnians are Serbs, Croats and Muslims.
Bosnia was created as a republic of three equal nations. Serbs had constituent status. You couldn't make decisions with simple majority.
You ignored that.
And that's the problem: you believe Serbs are guests on YOUR land. That's the logic behind your desire for independent Bosnia. You hope you'll someday cleanse Serbs, or reduce them to irrelevant minority by higher birth rate.
How the fuck do you expect Serbs in Bosnia to live with people like that?
>>404573
Serbs had far more control over yugo than bosniaks had over a United Bosnia
>>404523
Cause for war was that Serbs living Bosnia (who are native to the region and have lived there since Slavs came to the Balkans) didn't want to live in a country separate from Serbia, especially not in independent Bosnia (which, together with Croatia, has a bad history of treatment of Serbs within its borders). When it was obvious that Bosniaks and Croats didn't give a shit about Serbian opinion and decided to ignore a third of the country's population and secede without addressing Serbian worries in any way, war was the only answer Serbs saw available. They even retracted their agreement from a settlement attempt which tried to give each ethnicity their own autonomous regions.
Now, when the war already began it was seen as natural by all Serbs that the region Bosnian Serbs take from Bosnia will be added to Serbia because why the fuck would Serbs live in two separate Serbian countries?
>>404612
Serbs had no control over Yugoslavia, at least SFR of Yugoslavia.
It was ruled by Tito, and then by presidency.
And as I said before: when Bosnia was created in WW2, it had Serb plurality.
However, Serbs were controlled by communists and couldn't make their own decisions.
So then by 80's, demographic situation changes, and Muslims have plurality, and they immediately want to exploit that?
How is that fair?
All I'm trying to do here is make this guy acknowledge that Muslim aspirations played a big part in causing Bosnian War. Instead he goes with standard ''evil genocidal Serbs muh unitary Bosnia if you don't like it leave''.
How the fuck can you live with people like that?
Earlier I spoke about how I understand Muslim resentment. They were persecuted heavily when Ottomans were expelled from Balkans.
But in Muslim mind, centuries of Muslim control over Balkans and oppression of Christians never fucking existed.
They literally believe people hate them simply because they're Muslim, not because they did bad things in history.
>>404622
>Serbs live in two separate countries
Serbia and Montenegro?
>>404612
>Serbs had far more control over yugo than bosniaks had over a United Bosnia
Do explain, how? Keep in mind that there was never United Bosnia so we will never know how much power Bosniaks would've had.
>>404639
Serbs controlled half of the seats in the presidency
And regardless, blaming the current Muslim population for the crimes committed so long ago is retarded and will only further the divide
>>404644
They decided to not be Serbs anymore by a narrow vote, so technically speaking Montenegro is not a Serbian country anymore.
Republic of Srpska, on the other hand, is still pretty entrenched in its Serbdom.
>>404486
>because they didn't want to get dicked and treated like shit as was the case in Serbia
>But nah, they're "turks" now, huehue.
Conversion to Islam was not on theological grounds - let's make that clear. It was a political and symbolic gesture, and to this day it means the same thing and has the same detrimental effect on the Slavic community. It meant a departure from your previous heritage and loyalties to mainstream Ottoman society. Despite there not being a tangible Ottoman authority to support these day, they still uphold and will kill for the idea itself.
The motivation for conversion was political and fiscal privileges. In other words, they were cowards who literally sold their kids into slavery so they could perhaps make something of themselves due to the clever system of oppression laid out by the Turks. This is the "Islamic tolerance" we're familiar with and this is what the remaining muslims choose to represent. They perpetuated the enslavement of Christians/Slavs and many of those who assimilated into actual Turks, strengthening the Turkish nation, later faced Slavs on the battlefield.
Let's not get all genocidal up in here, but I have zero respect for these people and I will call them what they are: Cowardly Turk loyalists who only perpetuated oppression and caused division among Serbs.
Few centuries later, why did they call for a state where they could practice this glorious Ottoman heritage of theirs instead of submitting to their supposed Serbocroatian family? Because in terms of identity they're damaged beyond repair. They've created an isle of treacherous pro-Ottomanism in the middle of Serbocroatian lands and - the worst part - they cling onto it to the death.
>>404666
"Technically speaking" a very big portion of Montenegro outright identifies as Serbian.
>>404666
They're serbs who live in a different region for historical reasons, like Germany and austria
>>404663
>Serbs
What Serbs?
Only Serbian position was Serbian seat. Vojvodina, Kosovo, Montenegro weren't Serb, until AB revolution. But that happened in late 80's.
>blaming the current Muslim population for the crimes committed so long ago is retarded
I'm not blaming them.
But their lack of desire to acknowledge those crimes is worrying.
It's not majority, but plenty of them have a positive view of Ottoman Empire. Which is understandable, but it's also understandable why we whose ancestors lived under Muslim boot don't see that kindly.
>>404663
Before the 90's war the most recent case of Muslim crimes over Serbs in Bosnia was WW2. Same for Albanians in Kosovo.
And in 90's there were still a considerable amount of WW2 survivors.
>>404683
>same for Albanians in Kosovo
You don't know much about Kosovo. Serbs there were persecuted during whole that period. Not openly of course.
And in 80's, WW2 was just 40 years away. Many who lived through it were still alive.
>>404680
>but their lack of desire to acknowledge their crimes is worrying
Oh the irony
>>404673
200k identifies as Montenegrin and 180k as Serbs.
Plus minorities don't want anything to do with Serbs.
So yeah, by a narrow vote "technically" not a Serbian country anymore.
>>404674
Yeah, but those who identify as "Montenegrin" on polls are pretty touchy about not being labeled as Serbs, so I'm going to leave them to their Montenegrines.
>>404692
Officially, Serbia recognized and apologized for all of crimes done by Serbs during 90's.
We also shipped of plenty of criminals to be trialed, and plenty were trialed by Serbian courts.
Only real contention is whether Srebrenica is genocide or just a massive war crime. I believe it was a crime of genocide. Happy?
But I'm pretty sure you won't be so ''moral'' when it comes to centuries of Muslim crimes in Balkans. They never happened, we all lived in peace, right?
Persecution of Serbs during Austrian rule also never happened.
>>404698
Because they don't want to be associated with the genocide lol
>>404609
>And that's the problem: you believe Serbs are guests on YOUR land.
>That's the logic behind your desire for independent Bosnia. You hope you'll someday cleanse Serbs, or reduce them to irrelevant minority by higher birth rate.
>How the fuck do you expect Serbs in Bosnia to live with people like that?
>"You must be a Bosnian Muslim to hold this view, Turk!"
>"We only did what they planned to do first!"
>"It was really the Muslims fault to begin with!"
You Serbs truly are the niggers of the Balkans, the ultimate dindu people. Good luck convincing anyone who isn't a Serb these things, because trust me it's like listening to the Westboro Baptist Church. Additionally, you also completely ignore the treatment of the Muslims in Yugoslavia, but that goes with being a Serb I guess. Your next post has even more bullshit in it >>404639.
>Serbs had no control over Yugoslavia, at least SFR of Yugoslavia.
The Yugoslav ARMY. There's a reason nobody takes you and your ludicrous excuses seriously. But good luck in the future though, the Balkans are a shithole and they probably will stay like that for many years to come, mercy on anyone living there.
>>404698
>Yeah, but those who identify as "Montenegrin" on polls are pretty touchy about not being labeled as Serbs
As a Montenegrin (Serb), I can tell you that's not true.
A large share of ''Montenegrins'' feel Serb in private, and are Montenegrin only out of fear, so they don't lose job or shit like that.
You can see this when it comes to ethnicity of those in state administration: only 4% declare as Serbs.
>>404717
>you also completely ignore the treatment of the Muslims in Yugoslavia
They were treated the same way Serbian or Croatian nationalists were treated.
>"It was really the Muslims fault to begin with!"
>"We only did what they planned to do first!"
You're putting words in my mouth. It's just that any Serb who disagrees with your point of view is a chetnik. That's a big problem.
>>404714
i never denied that the Bosnian Muslims committed atrocities to the Serbs and croats during their rule
But the whole region is a clusterfuck of each group trying to kill each other and focusing so extensively on it will perpetually strain ties
>>404715
Which is ironic, because Serbs get blamed for shelling of Dubrovnik when it was Montenegrin project. If they want to be separate and not associate themselves with Srebrenica, then they should own up to their own fuckups and shift the blame on us (especially when you consider that the guy who led Montenegrins to shell Dubrovnik still reigns supreme in Montenegro TODAY, after 25 years).
>>404735
Well, Muslims overwhelmingly deny it.
Croats and Serbs don't deny their crimes on that scale.
I swear, ask random Muslim here, 9/10 will tell you ''Muslims never did anything we're eternal victims''.
Now I agree with your diagnosis, but how do you expect us to act with situation like that?
Praise Ottomans and Turkey so we don't offend them?
This may seem really dumb (and it is) but I've never learned a thing about all these conflicts and why they happened. Where can I start? It is a little overwhelming
>>404757
>how do you expect us to act
Not genociding for starters lol
But seriously, focusing so heavily on the past will hamper any attempt at progress, like Japan with respect to WW2 or the American South and the civil war. Turning a blind eye May not be easy, but really it's the only way that could possibly work
>>404744
>Which is ironic, because Serbs get blamed for shelling of Dubrovnik when it was Montenegrin project
Unlike the Serbs, Montenegrins feel guilty, and have apologized for what they did.
>>403266
Islamism was pretty small thing in Bosnia and Kosovo in 90's. Once Bosnian civil war started, bunch of jihadist veterans of Afghan wars appeared along with some Palestian/Lebanese jihadists. They were tiny majority of Bosniak forces. Radical islam became common in both after wars had ended as those countries still are shitholes with little future opportunities for people and Gulf Arab states also got opportunity sponsor some wahhabi mosques once wars ended.
>>403557
>Once they got support from the USA, it was impossible. Look at mujaheedins in Afghanistan against SSSR or now ISIS that came out of USA funding rebels against Bashar-Al-Asad.
Pretty much only conflict where US has supported radical islamists has been Soviet War in Afghanistan. Radical islamism became a thing in Kosovo and Bosnia only after wars.
>>404907
I am not for tension and conflict, but please bear in mind eventhough you may have a chauvinistic tendency towards Serbia and the Serbs. Serbia was the country that was the first which published the videos of the Srebrenica executions thus starting the whole process with the Srebrenica genocide and also their primeministers, not just one, went to Srebrenica and apologized for the crimes done in the name of his people and commemorated the victims (one of them was attacked by a group of islamists at a commemoration ceremony and hit with a stone), also investing in the restoration of the communities in Srebrenica. I can hate Serbs as much as I will, but this things were done, they have done it, and I still can't recall if any other nation did even a similar thing considering to the shit that was did to their people.
>>404767
Bosnia is a multiethnic entity split roughly 1/2 Serbs/Orthodox, 1/2 Muslims/Bosniaks and 1/4 Croats/Catholics (I know this doesn't quite add up). When shit hit the fan they all saw the entire thing as theirs and mass atrocities commenced. Today it has 3 presidents from each community and one Serbian entity (Srpska) within the country. I'm not sure about the Croats. Basically Belgium. JUST.
>>403266
This picture looks really scarry from an european perspective. So this is how Bosnia looked in the 90s, I can relate to a panic Christians in Yugoslavia would've had by seeing this on the street.
>>405364
I always thought Bosnia was a hardcore muslim country, however from the picture it looks the majority of the country is red or Serbian.
>>405378
It's roughly 1/2 Muslim, 1/3 Serb and 1/6 croat. Ironically, afaik none of the groups are actually super religious; they just use it as a way to differentiate themselves
>>405364
And the Croatian situation
>>405378
It's commonly imagined as some kind of brutal invasion by Serbia but it's more complicated than that.
>>405389
>It's roughly 1/2 Muslim, 1/3 Serb and 1/6 croat.
Not according to the map anon posted, or the map is wrong.
>>405394
Population wise. The Serbs live in less populated areas
>>405394
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina
>>405394
>what is population density
c'mon bru
>>405396
aha, so the most of the country is populated by Serbs, but muslims make the majority since probably living in bigger cities which are less.
>>405398
I just read it and I don't get it. I don't get this:
In 1961
>Serbs 1,406,057 (42.9%)
>Muslims 842,248 (25.7%)
In 1971
>Muslims 1,482,430 (39.6%)
>Serbs 1,393,148 (37.2%)
In 10 years, they were 670 182 Muslims more and 12 909 Serbs less, thus becoming a minority in Bosnia for the first time according to the census. What happend in those 10 years, was there an ethnic cleansing under Tito that noone knew about, or a mass conversion of Serbs to islam? It looks like a statistical discrepancy that could only be explained by a major demographic event.
>>405430
Muslims have super high birth rates
>>405430
If you read the note there it says that there was no recognized muslim category, so perhaps they felt compelled to identify as Serbian/Croatian.
>>405404
>country mostly populated by the natives
>cities overtaken by muslims
>cities take more population, muslims breed faster
>claiming country as their own
all of this thread gives me the creeps, like reading Nostradamus.
also 25 year rule, mods should close this thread.
>>405471
The Bosniaks converted to Islam in the 15th century or so and are as much natives as the Serbs at this point
>>405479
If my britbong bros start converting to allah I won't consider them britbongs m8, I'll consider them as any other immigrant muslim, even worse actually. cheers m8
>>405378
>I always thought Bosnia was a hardcore muslim country, however from the picture it looks the majority of the country is red or Serbian.
In good part of that map Serbians were simply biggest minority and there was no majority, same applies to lot of places with apparent Croat or Bosniak "majority". Sure, there were areas that had actual majority group, but generally it was pretty mixed country. At closer level there would have been villages with clear majority, but there is good change that neighboring village did have different majority group. Clear majority areas in Bosnia is largely result of civil war.
Hardcore muslim became a thing in Bosnia only after war... a while after war. Thanks to Saudis and other scum from Gulf states sponsoring all sorts of wahhabi mosques. Prior to break up pretty much every muslim in Bosnia was fine with drinking beer or rakija and eating pork with no fucks given, radical islamists are still minority, but unfortunately growing minority. Radical islamism has only taken foothold there in recent years. First bought there by bunch of jihadists during civil war, few hundred or so... as opposed against thousands of normal Bosniak muslim fighters in Bosniak forces during civil war.
>>405390
>It's commonly imagined as some kind of brutal invasion by Serbia but it's more complicated than that.
It's commonly seen as such as Serbs had access to far more heavy weaponry than Croats or Bosniaks... and they were ones that did more ethnic cleansing than others... because they were in position of power to do that far more often, due to heavy weaponry they had. As Serbs had more firepower than others, they did far more offensive actions, they had capability to do that while others lacked said capability. Generally Yugoslavia was in arms embargo and Serbia had most Yugoslav army equipment in their posession, they supplied Serbs in Bosnia and rest of world mostly refused to supply any group.
>>405612
>radical islamism has only taken foothold there in recent years.
why are people so welcoming of radical islam in Bosnia, one would think it should be becoming less not growing, if Bosnia is as secular as you described it. I understand you say Saudis are funding it, but if people are not welcoming it and do not want it I doubt it would make any difference who funds it.
>>405471
>also 25 year rule, mods should close this thread.
It's Balkan. Everyone has a some previous grievance to revenge against anyone in region. After breakup of Yugoslavia and all war crime investigations and shit, plenty of WWI and WWII era massacres were discovered. It goes back way further than breakup of Yugoslavia. Like I said, it's Balkans and that comes with ancient bloodfeuds.
>>405659
>why are people so welcoming of radical islam in Bosnia, one would think it should be becoming less not growing, if Bosnia is as secular as you described it. I understand you say Saudis are funding it, but if people are not welcoming it and do not want it I doubt it would make any difference who funds it.
It starts with the fact that there isn't opportunity to have meaningful jobs. That is followed by idleness, booze, drugs and so on. One best ways to get rid of drug and other criminal habits is becoming religious fanatic. With christians that ends up bothering your fellow citizens on saturday mornings with Jesus is coming flyers. With muslims it's more about becoming jihadist and suicide bombings.
Saudis are just happy to facilitate that transformation.
>>403415
>Radovan was a good boy, he dindu nuffin
t. Radovan Karadzic, The Hague
>wow, I guess this Karadzic guy wasn't so bad
m8, he's making a statement in his defence in a warcrimes trial, I'm not sure you could find a less objective statement to take at face value.
