Who would be ruling East Russia? Manchu clans? Turkic tribes? Japan? Mongols? China?
>>400649
Probably whomever stopped the Russians from expanding East.
>>400649
I imagine the Japanese would expand into the more desolate areas that couldn't be fully claimed until the 1800s.
The less barren areas would probably be Part of China.
>>400649
This map is wrong. Estonia and Livonia were conquered by Russia in 1710~1721.
>>400649
At this point, China probably
>>400694
They also forgot to add Finland in 1796-1947
China, most likely.
You also forgot to add Alaska as part of the russian territory before they sold it to the USA
USA
It would have been glorious.
>>400659
whoever*
>>400649
Britain, since the cancer blob was taking over every remote and useless piece of land in sight.
>>400649
>All these China answers
They never wanted it. The Far North for the Chinese and some of the Mongols is literally fucking nothing to them. As far as they're concerned its too far to the main trade routes, its too cold, and too desolate to live in. The Mongols that lived there along with the Yakuts and the Sibiri are weirdos even to the Mongols, who called them "Forest Mongols" or just "Forest People"
The Chinese didn't stop the Russians expanding there. The only time they met and clashed was when some Cossacks thought the Amur- which was in Manchuria and ergo Qing Territory- was free Space and the Chinese had to crush em out of there.
>>404292
I want to say this is ridiculous but something about that phrasing just rings too true. I got a good chuckle out of it.
No one, it would be like Antarctica
eastern russia has always been pretty much irrelevant, even today there's only like 6 million people living in that area, it's like 3/5 the size of the united states...
>>404501
>mid-17th century
>Imperial Tricolor flag
triggered
>>400659
To my understanding nothing stopped them in the east. It was seen as useless land by everyone else. The borders are mostly mountains and other difficult territory thats easy to defend against armies.
In the 20th century it would have become much more valuable area because uranium.
>>404501
Honestly, this. Expanding outside of glorious Han China is a waste of time. Nothing but barbarians out there. Collect tribute when you can (also get conquered occasionally), and send a punative expedition when they're getting uppity. No point in doing anything further.
Although, on the other hand, that was basically the Russian model as well until Yermak took one of those expeditions too seriously and accidentally into ruling the Khanate of Sibir. So who knows what chance could have brought? I still do think that the Russians were more interested in exploring and expanding, though, even if they went about it in a haphazard fashion at first, than the Chinese. Their expeditions were for raiding and tribute, yes, but also for opening up new trade routes. The biggest difference, I'd say, is that the powerful merchant clans like the Stroganovs had an influence on the Russian court that their Chinese counterparts never had. The Chinese obviously had world-spanning Silk Road trade connections, but the court and imperial infrastructure were much more powerful than the feudal Russian setup and much less open to pressure from merchants.
>>404608
>>404587
He clearly means whatever prevents the Russians from expanding past the urals in this alternative history.
I don't exactly agree but it's true that OP should have bringed a reason for the russians never expanding there. The reason can change the final result.
>>404662
>Because that was what I said.
My point wasn't that the Chinese chose not to obtain power and wealth, but rather that to them there was no power and wealth to be obtained by expanding, especially by expanding into the steppe and taiga to the north. It would have been more cost and effort than it would have returned. That, and the Mongols and other steppe peoples were in between China and Siberia, and it was all the Chineses could do to hold them off, let alone pin them down and conquer them. Nomads are hard to conquer, yo.
>>404662
>Be Qing China in the 1600's-1700's
>already wealthy and powerful.
>Fuckbusy in consolidating the lands they already own.
>"Come let us strain our resources and take over lands whose main economic value in our pre-industrial society is nothing and furs..."
Ok.
You do know Soviet Russia is the Russia that managed to have full use of the Russian East thanks to Modern tech?
>>404834
Is there any industry or economy in Siberia and the Far East besides mining and natural resources?
>>404843
Fur trade was the impetus for expanding there. And Russian Idea of owning the Western half of the Central Asian Silk Route.
Mining came later.
>>404689
In a way, the Russians had geography on their side. While you might think the steppe of Mongolia and Central Asia would provide a more natural "highway" for expansion, as it did for the Mongols, the more forested land the Russians were expanding through meant that, once the Mongol empire was done and the Khanates became impoverished local shitshows, they didn't have as many fast rap horse archers to deal with as the Chinese would have. Furthermore, the Russians could make use of the Ob, Yenisei, Lena, etc., to go by water (always a better option). The Chinese could've likewise used the Amur, but to even get to the river they'd have had to expand up into Manchuria. The Russians also had a long tradition of row/sail-and-portage expeditions on the Neva, Dnieper, Voga, etc. going back to the Varangian days that I'm not aware the Chinese had. That sort of expedition setup would've taken time to develop. (Not saying that it couldn't have, or that China wouldn't be the likely next in line if Russia didn't take Siberia, just that there would have been significant obstacles.)
>>404843
Short answer: no.
Long answer: also no.
Well, there's timber too, but that's about it.
>>404896
>The Russians also had a long tradition of row/sail-and-portage expeditions on the Neva, Dnieper, Voga, etc. going back to the Varangian days that I'm not aware the Chinese had
You do know the Yangtze and the Huanghe and the rivers that branch off of em are the main highways of the Chinese Empire?
There's really no impetus for northward expansion. It was was too remote even for the Manchus.
>>400649
no one, the little ice age reduced them to lightly populated tribes
global warming isn't happening but if it did it would thaw out mongolia and they would promptly conduct a startling conquest of their 2 neighboring nuclear powers using conventional forces
>>404916
Okay, I may have over-exaggerated that point, but I think there's still something to it. River were and are the highways of trade on *every* continent. But simply using a river as a trade route within your own country is quite different from a) portaging overland between rivers and b) doing so in desolate and/or potentially hostile lands. There are differences in both ship design and portage technology (balancing weight against something larger than a simple canoe, use of rollers, etc.) and in expedition style (a more military setup is needed) than normal river trade. The Russians also had more experience with boats that could survive ice and could do a bit coastwise on the Arctic as well. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_(boat))
>>404843
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Far_East
look at all the major cities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladivostok#Economy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khabarovsk#Economy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komsomolsk-on-Amur#Economy_and_infrastructure
most of the big ones are right on the border with china. fishing and logging are big in those areas. the further north you go the more fishing and logging there is.
>>404501
At least one Imperial Dynasty in China claimed Siberia: the Yuan Dynasty. And it was fucking comical.
>Genghiz' Khan's crew pretty much ends up in siberia due to the conquest of Central Asian tribes and some of them reached up there.
>Short one sided war, Sibirs go "OK" and submits
>Genghiz: I leave you with these colonists of Chinese farmers and craftsmen to make this land useful.
>50 years later.
>Chinese colonists go native, 0 agriculture happens. Chinese reducted to marrying Sibirs, dancing around fires and reindeer herding.
Ok so Kubilai Khan founds the Yuan Dynasty.
>I see my great grandfather's Chinese colony did nothing at all.
>So Sibirs, you're getting more Chinese farmers, craftsmen, and I leave you too with this Chinese Magistrate. You have complaints, pass it to him. You're civilized now.
>50 years later.
>Chinese go native, reduced to dancing around fires and herding reindeer.
>Again.
Seriously, the only way the Yuan Dynasty knew it ruled Siberia is through it regularly sends tribute back.
>>404991
>global warming isn't happening
>>405066
>Year 3050
>People's Corporate Emirate of China decides to reform administrative procedures, sends new officials and settlers to province of Siberia
>50 years later
>Chinese gone native, reduced to dancing around fires and herding reindeer.
>>405066
>Go native and reduced to marrying Sibirs,
You would too if you were forced to settle in the middle of nowhwere, with little to do, and with these qts for company.
>>405107
sign me the fuck up
>>405066
honestly, though, one could say that's the key difference between a nation-state and an empire in general. In any empire, there's always a core and a periphery, which you kinda sorta control but don't have nearly as much influence on as the homeland. It's not that some other polity has control over those regions, it's just that they're kind of out there doing their own thing. The whole "bless and keep the tsar, far away from us" thing. It took Russia itself a long time to get out of this mode (if it even has); right into the 20th century there were both native tribes and pockets of Old Believers doing their own thing out in Siberia, because who the fuck in Moscow knows what's happening way out there? In the cities and gulags, sure, but other than that?
>>405066
What does "Siberia" mean in this context? Because the lands of the khanate of Sibir are not included in your map.
>>405179
This seems to be more of what today would be considered the Russian Far East, although once you get over towards Lake Baikal, you're definitely in Siberia proper, even if it wasn't part of the Kahanate of Sibr.
The problem is that "Siberia" today includes everything from the Urals to the Pacific, which is a fuck-huge percentage of the planet Earth. For instance, just the modern republic of Yakutia/Sakha is larger than Argentina and just smaller than India.
>>405226
That's right, that's why I asked. Siberia isn't really an useful word when talking about history or geography, it covers a too big and diverse area.
>>405107
Aren't the Yakuts the more succesful people in asiatic Russia (apart from russians themselves)? One of the few peoples there who do not look like they're gonna become extinguished before the century ends.
>>405316
>One of the few peoples there who do not look like they're gonna become extinguished before the century ends.
because their women are hot
>>405066
>interedasting
CUZ WE WUZ QINGZ N SHET
>>405066
weren't the sibirs in western siberia?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khanate_of_Sibir
You're talking about the Evenks. right?
