Jew here, I have a question for Christians. Why do you think the messiah has come? He is supposed to fulfill a list of prophecies:
>The whole world will worship the One God of Israel
Isaiah 2:11-17
Currently does not happen.
>Knowledge of God will fill the world
Isaiah 11:9, Jeremieah 33:31
This means irrefutable evidence. Knowledge, not faith.
>All Israelites will be returned to their homeland
Isaiah 11:12
I am still in America.
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness
Isaiah 51:11
Holocaust? Inquisition? Progroms?
Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel
Isaiah 52:13-53:5
Holocaust deniers
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance
Zechariah 8:23
Spiritual, not monetary.
Weapons of war will be destroyed
Ezekiel 39:9
Not destroyed by nuclear weapons.
All of the dead will rise again
Isaiah 26:19
You claim one dude, I want them all.
Also, Ezekiel 40-42 lists exact specifications for a third temple as a building, not a person.
The Messiah will be a warrior king. He will also be preceded by Elijah. He will be a human, born of a young woman, and will not die and come back as he will have a mortal life span to fulfill the prophecies.
As per Bar Kochba, who was thought to be the Messiah. Once he died, the Rabbis shrugged and said "I guess it was not him". So the Messiah must be alive in order to fulfill the prophecies.
>Why aren't you a Jew?
Would if I could. It's impossible for a goy to become a true member of the tribe.
I actually agree entirely, Jesus messianity should be based upon his resurrection not by artifically aligning him with prophecies
>>400457
This. You may convert, but you will always be a second class Jew. Even by marriage the club is exclusive, and your kids may inherit your stigma too.
wewps
>>400445
In Judaism, is the messiah required to be a jew?
the day of the Lord (the 2nd coming) hasn't happened yet
that's when everyone will bow their knee to Jesus
>I am still in America.
Because you're a Khazar and not an actual Israelite.
>>400509
>But resurrection was never a condition for messianism
That's the point, Jesus is proven correct by resurrection meaning that his "messianity" is not based on the jewish interpretation of the many prophecies, Jesus is a new messiah or better: Jesus is not the messiah but the messiah is Jesus
>>400534
How does that prove anything correct? Deuteronomy quite literally tells you you shouldn't believe someone just because they're prophetic or bring "signs and wonders".
>>400589
Essentially, Jesus whole message aka the good news aka the evangelion i.e. forgiving of sins, eternal life, resurrection of the dead and God's kingdom
> Deuteronomy quite literally tells you you shouldn't believe someone just because they're prophetic or bring "signs and wonders"
Being resurrected after hanging from a cross can be quite well interpreted as a sign of God Himself
>>400445
What about everyone knowing the mind of god? Messiah can't come until that happens. It's in Isaiah, I think. You referenced it as knowledge filling the world.
What if the mind of god is just forgiveness, and we don't do it? There is a way to see everything in terms of forgiveness, and we just don't do it. That could mean Christian Messiah came and went and fulfilled everything only people denied forgiveness and fought back to create the world we have now.
>>400638
> You shall not listen to the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams; For the Lord your God puts you to test, to know whether you do love the Lord your God with all of your heart and all of your soul
> After the Lord your God shall you walk, and Him shall you fear, and His commandments shall you keep, and to His voice shall you listen, and to Him shall you serve, and to Him shall you cleave.
If it's a sign, I don't think it's the one that Christians intend.
>>400589
Then why should I trust the books of the Bible? Aren't they just prophetic?
Oh right it's because that one prophet/great priest said everyone else was wrong about jewish mysticism unless he said they weren't
>>400645
And there was not Armenian Genocide
Not a good argument I tell you
>>400657
>Then why should I trust the books of the Bible? Aren't they just prophetic?
No, they are not. The source of the commandments is the Mosiatic Covenant itself, and the mere fact that a prophet wrote a book doesn't give him the authority to abrogate said covenant.
Which is why you don't look into anything in Nevi'im for a source for a commandments for the present day.
It's also why this whole part of the "prophet or dreamer" is literally right after "Don't add or subtract to this stuff".
>>400654
>That could mean Christian Messiah came and went and fulfilled everything
Except none of the things listed in OP have been fulfilled
>>400778
Exactly. People deny forgiveness as the mind of god, and in doing so, ruined all the other prophecies. Messiah came when forgiveness was something everyone had worked on, but everyone turned away from the conditions that would have fulfilled the other prophecies.
Honestly, I'm just trying to work within the logic here. I think religion is what people used to control their children, and maybe touch a little of the good stuff when it came to living an intellectually fulfilling life by trying to understand a lot or take on a lot of responsibilities, but I find it all irrational to begin with anyway.
>>400805
>Exactly. People deny forgiveness as the mind of god, and in doing so, ruined all the other prophecies. Messiah came when forgiveness was something everyone had worked on, but everyone turned away from the conditions that would have fulfilled the other prophecies.
Sorry, this makes absolutely no sense to me. I don't even see how it is related to anything.
>>400848
"This" was several sentences and unique ideas. For me to think you're genuinely confused, you'll have to point to each specifically and tell me which you don't get individually for individual reasons. Or you know, go away.
>>400886
Well, start with the first sentence then. What do you mean they denied forgiveness? Who? What are you referring to in the Bible? What do you mean that a divine prophecy can be ruined? Why do you think God allows his prophecies to be ruined?
So does anyone know the argument that refutes OP?
I know it exists, because there's no way Jews are right about any of this (no offense).
It's probably here: http://catholicism.academic.ru/16822/Messiah
>>400928
Here you go
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputation_of_Barcelona
>>400928
>I know it exists, because there's no way Jews are right about any of this (no offense).
Why not?
Nobody gives a shit about your book.
>>401347
2 billion people do
>Christians anything but a shitty heresy of a non-European Religion.
I'm not a Jew because I wasn't born a Jew. Christianity doesn't make any damn sense though, so you're right about that Schlomo. I'd donate to your glorious cause, but we both know you have all the money you need to spread your message.
>>401328
/pol/ detected
>hey guiz, I'm Jewish xd
>I'm going to assume everyone here is Christian and two you your wrong
>le go to /pol/ meme for everyone who doesn't tell me I'm right lol xd
You are no better than an attention whore. Tits or gtfo.
>>401460
/lgbt/detected
>>400445
Why is Cyrus called a Messiah yet you say the Messiah hasn't come?
>>401661
The word mashiach meant, literally, “anointed one.” In Hebrew culture, a person was set apart and recognized as a leader by having oil poured on his head. Thus prophets, priests, and kings could be “anointed ones.” Isaiah 45:1 reveals that God had empowered Cyrus to do God’s own will, which included the overthrow of Babylon and the restoration of Jerusalem and its temple.
Of course, Cyrus was not the final “anointed one.”. Christians believe Jesus fulfilled that role, having been set apart and authorized to inaugurate the kingdom of God. Thus, when Christians refer to Jesus as the Messiah or the Christ (which is the word mashiach in an anglicized Greek form), they are acknowledging his role as God’s chosen one, God’s king. Like Cyrus, Jesus would do a work of restoration. But, unlike Cyrus, Jesus’ messianic effort would restore, not just Jerusalem, but the whole creation.
>>400522
>not bowing down for Mohammad's cock session
pls scrub
>>401614
The guys who got referred to /pol/ displayed blatant antisemitism
>>401727
Yes but I mean isn't Cyrus the only gentile in the Old Testament as well as contextually in the real world to ever be called THE messiah?
>>401945
No, because he wasn't call THE messiah
>>402691
Then what was he called? Can you post the excerpt directly?
>>402718
He was called anointed in Isiah 45:1
>>400638
>No proof can be brought from a Carob tree
>>400445
Christians don't know their own scripture. Big surprise.
>>400638
Not even a jew but the old testament is very clear that false messiahs will be able to commit miracles and that if he doesn't fit the criteria described he's pulling your leg or it's a test designed by god.
>>400445
Being a Noahide isn't practical.
>>402807
Yes but can you post the direct excerpt please?
>>402905
“This is what the Lord says to his anointed,
to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of
to subdue nations before him
and to strip kings of their armor,
to open doors before him
so that gates will not be shut:
2 I will go before you
and will level the mountains[a];
I will break down gates of bronze
and cut through bars of iron.
3 I will give you hidden treasures,
riches stored in secret places,
so that you may know that I am the Lord,
the God of Israel, who summons you by name.
4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
though you do not acknowledge me.
5 I am the Lord, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,
6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
people may know there is none besides me.
I am the Lord, and there is no other.
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.
Church is the new Israel senpai.
>>403039
More like the new heresy lead astray by false prophets
I am a Muslim, but also have answers
>The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)
We believe that will happen when Jesus comes back and rule the Caliphate and takes over the whole world.
> The Messiah will be a warrior king. He will also be preceded by Elijah. He will be a human, born of a young woman, and will not die and come back as he will have a mortal life span to fulfill the prophecies.
Muslims believe that Jesus never died and won't die until after he has fulfilled his prophecy. There is a grave in Mecca next to Prophet Muhammed that is reserved for Jesus.
Maybe the person in revelations that was called the anti-christ that wore white robes brought people away from the true god with his lies and did his magic tricks like healing the sick or raising the dead was really Jesus all alone.
>>403244
>There is a grave in Mecca next to Prophet Muhammed that is reserved for Jesus.
Nietzsche would be proud
>>400445
But I am, rabbi
Do any Christians have an answer to this?
>>406750
Jews aren't worth proselytizing toward.
>>406777
It still should worry them though. If jesus doesn't fill the messianic prophecy then what claim to legitimacy does he have?
>>406750
The Christian answer is in some ways similar to the Muslim answer. Jesus died to create a new covenant, but his work is not yet over. Through the Holy Spirit and eventually the last days, all of the prophecies that seemingly have yet to be filled will. For example, the whole world worshiping the one God, the New Earth and New Jerusalem where everyone lives etc.
Essentially, because he's a divine messiah and not a human, he didn't need to finish everything during his limited mortal life, only the tasks that required a mortal to complete them. Some prophecies are already fulfilled, some are in the process of being fulfilled, some will be fulfilled later.
>>406808
the old testament is very clear that false messiahs will be able to commit miracles and that if he doesn't fit the criteria described he's pulling your leg or it's a test designed by god.
>>400445
>Also, Ezekiel 40-42 lists exact specifications for a third temple as a building, not a person.
What are you talking about? The temple was rebuilt
>>408236
>The temple was rebuilt
That's Brazil. Please stop shitposting
>>408236
looks like a walmart warehouse with a pseudoancient facade
>>408131
He does fit the criteria described, he's just in the process of it. It's like seeing a lion laying down with the lamb, and rejecting the sign because the lepord has yet to lay with the goat. Look ahead a bit, the goat is arriving, and it works on God's time frames rather than yours.
>>408658
Well he doesn't, because he's supposedly god. The messiah is supposed to be a regular man.
And besides, why wouldn't something like a second coming be mentioned? It's a pretty big fucking deal if the messiah is going to die and then take over a thousand years to actually come back and get the job done. No mention of that in the old testament.
>>408668
Jesus is fully human as well a fully divine, no no problem there.
Besides, if we're counting the things the Old Testament left out, you'd think there would be a mention of cellphones or the Internet.
>>408681
>fully man and fully divine
Now how does that make any sense. It's like saying you're 100% white and 100% black. The messiah is supposed to be a man, full stop. No divinity involved.
And that example is quite different. If the validity of the old testament were based on accurate predictions of technological advancements you'd have a point. As it stands however the foundation that Christianity is built on is that Jesus is the messiah predicted on the old testament. Except that he doesn't fit a number of those predictions.
>>400445
Isaiah 2:11-17 doesn't say that the world will worship God....it says the arrogant will be humbled.
you haughty Jews were well humbled before the might of Rome in 70AD in spades.
Isaiah 11:9 - have you never heard of the gideons? hell, you cannot deny that knowledge of God is everywhere on earth.
not everyone worships him, but through the dominion of this world by we Christians (by the grace of God), every nation on this planet has access to knowledge of God.
Jeremiah 33:31 - Jeremiah 33 ends with verse 26. begone lying Jew.
Jeremiah 11:12 - says that you jews will cry to gods who will not save you in your times of affliction.
you don't even warrant a refutation, you lying Jew. I'll deal with you properly when I'm in front of a computer rather than a phone, but as it stands, you blatantly fail to even tell the truth as to what the verses even say.
>>408991
Literally everything you said is false, anyone with a Bible can check for themselves
id like to think that that my last jewish ancestor converted several hundred years ago.
>>400457
>Would if I could
Why?
>>400445
OP's pic scared the shit put of me
>>408140
Of course, just like Solomon, Moses, and all their other fictional characters
>>400445
>The whole world will worship the One God of Israel
That will never happen lmfao
>Knowledge of God will fill the world
This doesn t even mean anything
>All Israelites will be returned to their homeland
Isreal wont last another hundred years
>The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness
Not possible for any group of people
>Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel
Ahahahahaha really? How arrogant can a religion get?
>The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance
The people's of the world couldnt give less of a shit about spiritual guidance, the pope and dalai lama are fucking jokes already
>Weapons of war will be destroyed
Yeah that sounds highly realistic, especially for such a bitter group of people
>All of the dead will rise again
Physically impossible, what are you, 8 years old? What the fuck
Would you creepy psychotic Last Men and your imaginary friends just fuck off already?
