>Agincourt actually happened
Are there any other historical events you find unbelievable even though they're true?
>>398402
>archers behind pikes pwning undisciplined knights
Not so unbelievable desu
Holocaust
>>398424
where the fuck did they get undisciplined knights?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Muret
Blunder of the century
>>398426
At that time knights could make money by capturing another knight and ransom him.
Since there was an unbalanced number of english knights compared to french knights, the french rushed to the ennemy to be the first to get their prize.
>>398438
didn't expect French to be so hot headed
England only won because France was going through a rough patch and England was dishonourable. France could beat England easily.
>>398453
> France could beat England easily
That is what makes it far more impressive and unbelievable that the French lost. Also honour has no place in a war which you are loosing or could loose.
>>398467
No it is not impressive. France should have won England just got lucky. England are historically bad at war.
Trafalgar
Pearl Harbour
Midway
>>398473
try reading your own comment again
>>398453
>>398467
>>398473
To be fair, the outcome was more affected by the French utter incompetence than by any genius tactics from the English
>Monsier, the enemies are one km away, up this muddy hill over there, they have thousands of archers, what shall we do?
>Charge at them on foot in heavy armor of course honhonhon
Even if the archers hadnt mowed them down during the charge, how arrogant can one be to believe they'd still be able to put a fight after charging on foot toward uphill for 1 km in the mud while wearing heavy armor?
The Holocaust, and I suppose torture in general. How do you hate people enough to do that to them rather than just killing them?
>>398402
The great emu war
>>398425
This.
Also, since when has this board existed? I only just noticed it now?
>>398492
Eh, depends on what reason torture was used for. If for confessions, either they didn't realise that people would confess to anything when being tortured, or they just didn't care.
>>398402
>The Dervish forces successfully repulsed the British Empire in four military expeditions, and forced it to retreat to the coastal region.[1] As a result of its fame in the Middle East and Europe, the Dervish State was recognized as an ally by the Ottoman Empire and the German Empire.[2][3] It also succeeded at outliving the Scramble for Africa, and remained throughout World War I the only independent Muslim power on the continent.[4] After a quarter of a century of holding the British at bay, the Dervishes were finally defeated in 1920, when Britain used aeroplanes to bomb the Dervish capital of Taleh.
Who knew Somalis were resilient as fuck?
>>398473
>t. Francois
>>398558
To clarify
>eye witness testimony is sketchy at best and outright lies at worst
>a complete lack of forensic evidence
> the continued denial of Western influence on the final death toll (e.g. emaciated bodies at Western camps caused by Allied bombing of German supply routes, but still blamed on German genocide programs)
>the historians cherrypick from their sources (e.g. Gerstein was mentally ill who made many ridiculous claims and exaggerations, but is still the go to source for historians)
>many of the claims are scientifically improbable or impossible
>a lack of probable cause by the acclaimed perpetrators (and evidence to the contrary by the same parties)
>it is illegal to question the facts in several European countries and considered unkosher throughout the Western world
>Death camps exist only in Soviet-held territory, who we all know were incredibly biased against the Nazis
>beneficial to the continued existence of Israel that the Holocaust be perpetuated ad infinitum
>the hypocrisy of Israel when it comes to the oppression and genocide of minority populations, and
>the continued existence of the holy 6 million number and other myths (such as Jewish soap) even though the historians have long since downplayed such claims (e.g. Auschwitz reduced its death toll by more than half 25 years ago, which should officially put the number at around 3.4 million)
>>398447
That's why the english got them out of there
>>398568
>Bongs needed the invention of planes in order to defeat a backwater Somali theocracy
This either attests to Hassan's genius or the British's incompetence.
>>398402
>>398402
Nagashino is kind of like the Japanese Agincourt
>>398402
The Saint Crispians Day speech. I know it's historical fiction, but god damp it did Shakespeare know how to rile a crowd and get the blood pumping
The Cultural Revolution.
Chinese civilization is millenia-old, it has always been guided by highly complex intellectual philosophies and doctrines such as Confucianism and Legalism, it's government being led by a more or less meritocratic bureaucratic class. In arts, poetry and song it has always been the source of much of East Asian high culture, overall, China is probably the greatest civilization of the last 5000 years.
Mao got them to worship mangoes.
>>398558
>since when has this board existed? I only just noticed it now?
really? Its been here for like the past 4 years
The Battle of Cannae by Hannibal.
Rome got their shit pushed in.
>>398869
mangos are delicious tho to be quite honest
>>398869
I think that what you described in terms of Chinese culture being refined was just the case in the richer towns and cities. It was very different from the village backwaters that Mao came from.
Chinese peasent culture was steeped in practices and superstitions that nowadays we'd call barbaric. Flaying people alive, boiling living Dogs, Foot binding, castration as a way of upper ward mobility, even cannabalism.
When Mao empowered these peasants with rule instead of intellectuals, this was just the next logical step. The "Workers are always right" mentality meant that you had bumfuck hicks being exposed to shit they didn't understand and acting like bumfuck hicks would.
>>398612
>>Death camps exist only in Soviet-held territory, who we all know were incredibly biased against the Nazis
The west was biased against the Nazis too, just slightly less so. Anyway, the Lebensraum was planned towards the East, so most of the Death Camps would be needed there, where the Soviets naturally ended up taking control.
>>beneficial to the continued existence of Israel that the Holocaust be perpetuated ad infinitum
>>the hypocrisy of Israel when it comes to the oppression and genocide of minority populations, and
>>the continued existence of the holy 6 million number and other myths (such as Jewish soap) even though the historians have long since downplayed such claims (e.g. Auschwitz reduced its death toll by more than half 25 years ago, which should officially put the number at around 3.4 million)
I don't believe that Saddam had nukes or connections with Al Qaeda, but I don't believe that 9/11 was faked either.
>>a lack of probable cause by the acclaimed perpetrators (and evidence to the contrary by the same parties)
Antisemitism and Germanic Exceptionalism had been thoroughly radicalizing for years anyway, and Hitler's/Nazi ideology had spoken of concentrating and, if not outright eradicating, drastically reducing the population of Jews/Poles/Slavs to colonize their lands after the manner of American manifest destiny.
>>it is illegal to question the facts in several European countries and considered unkosher throughout the Western world
It's illegal to teach Creationism in public schools.
cont.
>>398935
>>eye witness testimony is sketchy at best and outright lies at worst
>>a complete lack of forensic evidence
>> the continued denial of Western influence on the final death toll (e.g. emaciated bodies at Western camps caused by Allied bombing of German supply routes, but still blamed on German genocide programs)
>>the historians cherrypick from their sources (e.g. Gerstein was mentally ill who made many ridiculous claims and exaggerations, but is still the go to source for historians)
>>many of the claims are scientifically improbable or impossible
I admit that poor explanations are used to exaggerate it, but the fact that a substantial amount of the people who were involved have confessed, and there are records of massive numbers of Jewish refugees escaping persecution and possibly death by travelling into territory held by the Japanese and Soviets, and even into European Axis territory like Bulgaria, would require the fallacy of a global conspiracy (i.e. - "The majority of evidence against the conspiracy was faked, I have the minority of evidence to prove it!")
>>398558
Step up your game m8 it's been around since 2006.
>>398473
WE SHOT NIGGERS WITH STICKS
Basically everything that is further back than 30 years.
Completely mind-blowing.
That a multi-cultural former colony younger than pubs I've been to is the world's most powerful nation. Just looking at it it's nothing but given a historical context it's really something.
>>398877
4 years and no dank memes?
>>398975
The British Empire sure showed this bunch of kingz n shit who's the boss!
The resurrection of Jesus Christ.
>>398992
This was after getting rekt by them too.
I can't think of any other Western military that lost that handedly against natives who didn't even have firearms
>>399020
>who didn't even have firearms
>>399020
The Zulu had rifles. They'd been living next to the Dutch for centuries, m8
>>398438
That's not how it happened. Read pic related.
>>398489
Agincourt was fought on fairly level ground.
>>398844
Parts of the St Crispin's Day speech are based off a speech that an eyewitness claims Henry V gave before the battle. Specifically the part where an English commander wishes that they had more men and the king rebukes him and claims they have enow to do our country loss etc
So it could've happened, maybe. Then again the eyewitness was a priest and the whole spiel sounds suspiciously like a speech from a book in the Bible, Joshua I think?
>>399044
>>399028
My mistake, I forgot that the Voortrekkers did trade caches of firearms with the Zulus.
Still, the few rifles they were equipped with were old and would often malfunction. Apart from that they had no Artillary or anything else.
The fast majority of the Zulu army was fighting with Iron spears and hide shields vs. artillery cannons and Breech-loaded muskets, which were state of the art at the time.
There's a reason why Chelmsford never took to the field again after the Anglo-Zulu war.
>>398612
>eyewitness testimony is sketchy at best and outright lies at worst
Not really, there are instances(among thousands) where people have lied or got things wrong, but there's so much more reliable evidence.
I suggest reading Tadeusz Borowski's 'This way for the gas ladies and gentlemen', pretty good stuff and not tonally not what I was expecting.
>continued denial of western influence on final death toll
Because that was minor, i'd say there's more of an issue with nations overstating their participation in saving Jews, e.g. the british imperial war museum has a kindergarten exhibition thing where they talk about the Jewish kids that were taken in, but this was done solely because they could be easily assimilated.(cont)
>>398935
>Anyway, the Lebensraum was planned towards the East, so most of the Death Camps would be needed there, where the Soviets naturally ended up taking control.
It would be just as plausible to place them in the east as staging areas for further deportation into Russia. Past the Ural Mountains to be precise. It is also illogical and far less efficient to ship them hundreds of miles away just to kill them, when it could be done more efficiently in more local camps. We know these existed, Benson, Ravensbruck, Dahau, etc, but they were still shipped to Poland for extermination. And near residential areas no less.
>I don't believe that Saddam had nukes or connections with Al Qaeda, but I don't believe that 9/11 was faked either.
It's historians writing history to suit a pro Israeli agenda. If the Holocaust story goes, so to does Israels reason for existence (contrast this with Jewish religious belief that only their Messiah can give them their promised land)
>Antisemitism and Germanic Exceptionalism had been thoroughly radicalising...
Ethnic cleansing, yes absolutely. The actions of the 3R are undeniable in that sense. But extermination? No proof of that outside of one angry rant by Hitler exists for that.
>It's illegal to teach Creationism in public schools.
Creationism is based on religious dogma and heresay, just like the Holocaust story.
>I admit that poor explanations are used to exaggerate it, but the fact that a substantial amount of the people who were involved have confessed
Under duress
>And there are records of massive numbers of Jewish refugees escaping persecution...
Their opinions would be valid for the persecutions, which I'm not disputing. They would have no firsthand knowledge of the genocide, and their opinion would be heresay. Let's not forget there is a monetary benefit to claiming to be a holocaust survivor.
>>398988
Why would that surprise you more than a bunch of Latin rapists coming to dominate the Mediterranean? It wasn't around for that much longer than the U.S. at the time of its zenith.
>>399074
So? Did I somehow imply otherwise? Or did you have an actual point you wanted to discuss or argue against?
Or did you come from /pol/ just to shitpost? :^)
>>398612
>historians cherrypick from their sources
Not really, there's a good historiography with new stuff being discovered all through to the 90s thanks to the end of the cold war(new archives).
>many of the claims are scientifically improbable
Not any made by the better academics, the populations of the occupied countries, especially eastern europe, coupled with the different means of death; camps, einsatzgruppen, death marches.
>lack of probable cause
The intentionalist/functionalist debate is still hotly discussed, the probably cause is there.
>illegal to question the facts in several European countries
Has no bearing on the academic study of something, it's political.
>death camps only existed in Soviet-held territory
Because these were the places with the highest jewish populations, and where the most stress was on Gauleiters to find fast solutions.
(cont)
>>398402
>>398612
>beneficial to the continued existence of israel that holocaust yada yada
Israel being a shitty state doesn't mean the holocaust didn't happen. The Armenian Genocide is tied to Turkish national identity and they deny it too, the ties to national identity have no bearing on truth.
>hypocrisy of israel
Agreed
>continued existence of false facts
This is the case with every well-known historical event in the world.
I think its helpful to understand the holocaust as an academic subject has been continually developing for many, many years because there's a lot of debate and controversial stuff.
I really would recommend 'Ordinary Men' by Browning, it gives a pretty sympathetic look into the ground perpretrators of the holocaust, generally older men serving in german MP battalions who had to get drunk before they did the horrible shit they were ordered to do.
Pretty damning of eastern european collaborators though, the hiwis.
>>399093
You implied that being Multi-Cultural was somehow relevant to the USA being a Super Power.
>>399075
>Not really, there are instances(among thousands) where people have lied or got things wrong, but there's so much more reliable evidence.
There's plenty of testimony to life in the camps, but incredibly few directly regarding the extermination process. Abraham Bomba is one who comes to mind, but he was an ignorant stooge who thought Jewish hair was used for German mattresses, and Gerstein is another, but I already explained how he was mentally ill and largely exaggerated or lied in his testimony (which hasn't stopped historians using him as a credible first hand witness; see where I mentioned cherry picking of evidence).
>I suggest reading Tadeusz Borowski's 'This way for the gas ladies and gentlemen', pretty good stuff and not tonally not what I was expecting.
I'd heard of him in passing. Nothing significant though.
>Because that was minor, i'd say there's more of an issue with nations overstating their participation in saving Jews
If there was ever a global conspiracy, it is this.
>Not really, there's a good historiography with new stuff being discovered all through to the 90s thanks to the end of the cold war(new archives).
Nothing the Soviet records provides supported the story. Hell, the Russians admitted to lying about Katyn after the wall came down. That's another reason why I don't believe the story.
>Not any made by the better academics,
Independent forensic tests of the death camps are prohibited. immediate red flag.
>>399098
>camps, einsatzgruppen, death marches.
The camps can be easily explained; simple slave labour/decoration camps. The death marches I'm also iffy about because the Germans left so many alive at Auschwitz (why leave behind witnesses for your most hated enemy to find?), which makes me believe they were given a choice to stay or go with the Germans. I've always erred with the Einsatzgruppen, though. Tasked with Jewish extermination or otherwise, their contribution to the final death toll wouldn't suggest an extermination program, not on the level that is suggested.
>The intentionalist/functionalist debate is still hotly discussed, the probably cause is there.
Of course, Wahnsee is often mentioned, but there's no mention of death camps or the like at the talks. The common belief is "hurr Hitler hated the News so he must have wanted them dead", but he must have also been telepathic because there's no paper trail.
>Has no bearing on the academic study of something, it's political.
When was the last time you heard someone publish a paper critical of the Holocaust and not be jailed/ostracised in the process?
>Because these were the places with the highest jewish populations, and where the most stress was on Gauleiters to find fast solutions.
All the camps, including ones in German territory, were initially considered death camps. It was only later revised when they realised there were no gas chambers in any of them. The only death camps that exist, exist in previously Soviet territory that was outside the examination by the Western allies.
A single salvo of 6 torpedoes sank a fleet carrier and a destroyer, and wrecked a battleship.
>I-19 was a Japanese Type B1 submarine which damaged and destroyed several enemy ships during World War II while serving in the Imperial Japanese Navy. During the Guadalcanal campaign, with a single torpedo salvo, the submarine sank the aircraft carrier USS Wasp and the destroyer USS O'Brien, and damaged the battleship USS North Carolina.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_submarine_I-19
>>399221
>incredibly few regarding the extermination process
It's hard to get eyewitness testimony from those who were working closest to the chambers because they were either going in and getting killed or they were working as Sonderkommando and were killed every few weeks anyway. There's plenty of eyewitness testimony that attests to knowledge of the chambers though, such as the book I suggested by Borowski.
>nothing the soviet records provides supports the story
I'm not sure about how true this is, I know for a fact they made monuments to communist POWs at camp locations they owned.
>independent forensic tests of the death camps are prohibited
This is the problem with it being such a politicised subject, if you carry out tests you are giving tacit approval to the idea that the holocaust didn't happen. This doesn't just affect Jews, it affects any prisoners. I know there's one person who broke in and carried out his own tests, found Zyklon B traces and then said they were too small to kill humans(stating they were for killing lice instead, but not realising you need more zyklon B to kill insects than you do for humans).
>>399224
>camps can be easily explained; simple slave labour/decoration camps
You don't cart slave labour in conditions that make many dead on arrival, again i'm going to recommend 'Ordinary Men' for this.
>erred with einsatzgruppen
It shows the Nazi government going out of its way to enforce an extermination policy in occupied territories, which is obviously part of the holocaust.
>Wahnsee often mentioned
Wahnsee has been given minimal importance by academics precisely for the reasons you gave. If you look at the relationship between ghettoisation > extermination, it's clear that the holocaust began as from the bottom rather than the top, but the top provided the ideology and then supported it.
>when was the last time you heard someone publish a
David Irving, and he was only jailed once he went to Austria. He was never jailed in Britain
(cont
>>399224
>All the camps, including ones in German territory, were initially considered death camps
You've got to understand that pretty much everyone was getting it wrong about the holocaust until the 1970s.
The death camps started in the East because that was where the ghettos and consequently the pressure was.
They had to shuffle around jewish populations and it simply became more convenient at a lower level to kill them either by gassing or negligence.
How much is Shakespeare's version true, anyway?
>>399361
Not at all
>>399361
>How much of what the guy who thought dick jokes was top tier comedy wrote was true
Take a guess
>>399312
>This is the problem with it being such a politicised subject, if you carry out tests you are giving tacit approval to the idea that the holocaust didn't happen.
You would also be silencing any and all opposition, if the evidence exists of course. The truth doesn't fear investigation, or so they say.
>Found Zyklon B traces and then said they were too small to kill humans(stating they were for killing lice instead, but not realising you need more zyklon B to kill insects than you do for humans).
Firstly, the main Auschwitz gas chamber is not the original, it's a reconstruction built by the Soviets after the liberation of the camp. The Auschwitz curator at the time, Francis Piper, confessed this about 20 years ago to David Cole. A Jew, ironically.
Secondly, but considering the first it's kinda irrelevant, two separate tests were conducted, one by Rudolf and another by an American whose name I've forgotten. Both found insignificant quantities of Hydrogen cyanide traces in the walls of the main chamber. Whoever told you need less HCn to kill humans than lice was bullshitting you. According to the stories I've heard, they would throw a handful of Zyklon B through the roof into the chamber, which was apparently enough to kill however many hundreds of people were inside the chamber at the time.
Ignoring the fact that aerial photography of the camp shows no holes in the roof of the original chamber, the impossibility of a building measuring 17m X 4.5m could house 800 people at once, the complete lack of understanding behind the science of Zyklon B fumigation, and the complete lack of staining on the walls (which are present in actual fumigation chambers, and would indicate homicidal gassings), does a handful of pellets really sound like enough to kill 800 people, let alone a bunch of fleas?
>>399312
>There's plenty of eyewitness testimony that attests to knowledge of the chambers though, such as the book I suggested by Borowski.
If they didn't directly witness the killings, then it's not firsthand evidence. It's heresay. If they did, then they would be dead as you said. In either case, witness testimony here is incredibly weak. Human memory is very fickle and will believe what it wants in trying circumstances. Bamba believed it took two minutes to gas a room full of Jews and then empty it out for the next group of
victims.
>You don't cart slave labour in conditions that make many dead on arrival, again i'm going to recommend 'Ordinary Men' for this.
But they weren't. Slaves are assets; you don't just kill or starve or abuse them. There were were against abusing the inmates anyway. Several camp commandants were actually punished for allowing the mistreatment of inmates in their camps.
>It shows the Nazi government going out of its way to enforce an extermination policy in occupied territories, which is obviously part of the holocaust.
A small part, yes. Against the backdrop of the greater story, it's little more than a glorified witch hunt.
>Wahnsee has been given minimal importance by academics precisely for the reasons you gave. If you look at the relationship between ghettoisation > extermination, it's clear that the holocaust began as from the bottom rather than the top, but the top provided the ideology and then supported it.
There is still a complete lack of documentary evidence to support it. It's all based on assumptions that, since Hitler was the boss, he must have given the order.
>David Irving, and he was only jailed once he went to Austria. He was never jailed in Britain
Zundel, Germar Rudolf, that aforementioned American, David Cole was threatened into reversing his position and is still in hiding. Those are just 4 off the top of my mind. Just the fact that David Irving was jailed for a thought crime should provoke disgust.
>largest labor uprising in US history
>nowhere to be found in any school textbook
>By August 29, battle was fully joined. Chafin's men, though outnumbered, had the advantage of higher positions and better weaponry. Private planes were hired to drop homemade bombs on the miners. A combination of gas and explosive bombs left over from World War I were dropped in several locations near the towns of Jeffery, Sharples and Blair. At least one did not explode and was recovered by the miners; it was used months later to great effect during treason and murder trials following the battle. On orders from the famous General Billy Mitchell, Army bombers from Maryland were also used for aerial surveillance. One Martin bomber crashed on the return flight, killing the three members of the crew.[24][25]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain
Alvin York capturing a whole company of German troops by himself
>>399491
>>399496
I don't really have time to reply to the rest of this but
>You don't cart slave labour in conditions that make many dead on arrival, again i'm going to recommend 'Ordinary Men' for this.
>But they weren't.
At this point you're denying the testimony of german military police and people within the camps.
If you're going to treat the range of eyewitness testimony with some kind of debelief, then it's going to be very difficult for you to believe the holocaust happened at all.
You're doing a very good job of denying the holocaust, but it isn't from a point of rationality. Israel and the national reaction to holocaust denial has no bearing on the truth of the event, this is something that Norman Finkelstein has tried to get across with his book on the holocaust industry.
There's plenty of evidence for the shitty conditions prisoners were transported in, they weren't fit to get there in shape to work. If they were going to be sent to camps to work, why was there a debate in the German leadership concerning whether the ghettos should be used for industry or to take out Jews through attrition?
Didn't even mean to write this long a post really. I can see you've read plenty of denial arguments, but you need to read some other books to get the whole picture.
>>398430
I still have NO idea how the fuck they pulled this off.
I mean, you'd think even when retreating, some random sword swinging could kill more than just 8 people.
>>398536
Kek
>>398430
>King Peter rode to the front line, forsaking his royal armour for the plain armour of a common soldier. His army was disorderly and confused. When Montfort's first squadron charged the field, the Aragonese cavalry was crushed and Peter himself was unhorsed. He cried out, "I am the king!" but was killed regardless. With the realization that their king had been killed, the Aragonese forces broke in panic and fled, pursued by Montfort's Crusaders.
>>398886
agreed, but worship?
>>399908
Why the heck not? At least then you're worshipping a real thing
>>399501
I remember hearing about it in AP history.
It's still not the largest civil uprising in U.S. history. This had literal tanks rolling down the streets of Washington.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain
>>398935
>don't believe Saddam had nukes
WMD aren't only nukes. Chemical and biological weapons are classified as WMD, which we had vague reason to believe was there. In addition to the resistant (and in some cases hindered) attempts at checking to find out (which, despite going, we now know they made dummy plants to throw off UN investigators), it seemed fairly shady.
Don't get me wrong there are a bunch of things fucked about the whole debacle, but that's only the tip of the iceberg.
>>399074
And it's not now?
blacks are only 12% of the population. Europeans, regardless of ethnicity, still make up 72.4% of the country
>>399930
Plus you know, he had gassed the Kurds before. That kinda proves he has the materials at least.
>>399069
weren't zulu shields strong enough to stop musket balls
>>399078
>Israels reason for existence
At this point all the reason Israel needs to exist is its well trained and equipped professional army. Even if everyone took drugs one day and decided that the holocaust never happened, it's not like they would say "give back the land" and wars would be fought over it. America wouldn't even stop supporting it, because the far right would still prefer Jews holding the land over the Arabs.
>>399361
>How much is Shakespeare's version true, anyway?
A ton of characters are present at the battle who were not actually at the battle, like the duke of Exeter (who was actually just earl of Dorset at this time) and the Dauphin Louis.
The English were probably outnumbered 3 to 1 and not 5 to 1 as Shakespeare has it.
Henry V definitely did not have the French prisoners killed for revenge after the French attacked the baggage train. The English pages and camp followers were not massacred.
The French dead were probably closer to 6,000 instead of 10,000. At least 112 Englishmen died, not just "five and twenty". Some contemporary accounts say the English lost closer to 1,600 men.
Besides that, Shakespeare doesn't actually have too much to say about the battle itself.
>>399958
What do you think?
>>399958
Yes, just like the Ghost Dance made Native Americans immune to bullets.
What the fuck do you think?
>>399992
>The English were probably outnumbered 3 to 1 and not 5 to 1 as Shakespeare has it.
Not really, no
The most probable numbers are 6,000 vs 12,000 (2 to 1)
>>400021
>The most probable numbers are 6,000 vs 12,000 (2 to 1)
[citation needed]
Anne Curry argues that the French army numbered 12,000, but an important part of her argument is that the English number 8,500-9,000 instead of the traditional 6,000.
>>399501
These guys are actually where we got the term "redneck" from.
They wore red bandannas around their necks.
>>399958
>hide stopping musketballs
Mate... Even steel breastplates could only stop pistol balls at long range.
>>398402
Agincourt doesn't seem that unbelievable. A lot of overarching tactical blunders as well as blunders on a personal level of the soldiers involved leads to being utterly destroyed with little chance to fight back.
The Russian Baltic Fleet during the Russo-Japanese War.
>>398426
There was no one actual French commander with a plan, just a load of very high ranking nobles, each with their own private retinues, who couldn't wait to get to grips with the English, so they all set off doing their own thing, with the men under them and the men under *them* just going along with it.
>>398489
>uphill
The battlefield of Agincourt is flat. Very flat. Pic related, it's where the actual fighting too place. Azincourt is to the left, Tramecourt to the right, the French camp is off in the distance and the English camp/billets behind.
If anything, the stupidity stemmed from continuing to send in more men after the first battle/wave got bogged down. If the English were in a fixed position around their stakes, they could have send one of the other two battles around the side and hit the flanks or even the rear. But they just sent them forward, trying to step through the mud and over the bodies of the first battle.
Going on foot was actually a pretty good idea, given that it mean that their horses couldnt be shot from under them and become a liability (that's how the English fought) and armour was pretty much arrow proof at this point except very close or lucky hits.
>>398489
Seriously?
II wear armor that's just as heavy, I can cover a click and still fight.
They didn't run the entire time, either, and DAMN NEAR broke the english line-
the issue is that people who pack in too tightly can't fight, and the french did exactly that, whole also being shot at point blank on their flanks, and then surrounded by light infantry when the archers rushed them.
>>400514
>There was no one actual French commander with a plan
Actually-there was.
Overall tactical plan was for hundreds of mounted men to flank the english and sweep the archers off the field, and for th emain body to advance dismounted and smash the english ment at arms.
Unfortunately, nobody wanted to be in the mounted unit-no money or glory- so it set out horribly under strength, couldn't get to a flank, and thought it DID reach the english, it did so scattered, formation less, and with no impetus.
The men were simply swarmed-the idea that English archers were actually proficient and aggressive infantry hadn't really sunk in yet.
>Going on foot was actually a pretty good idea, given that it mean that their horses couldnt be shot from under them and become a liability (that's how the English fought) and armour was pretty much arrow proof at this point except very close or lucky hits.
It's more that they'd learned the hard way that large bodies of men at arms on foot are actually hard to deal with on horseback, and it's easier to break them by dismounting yourself.
The second battle advancing actually DOES make sense-
the first was making progress, and the added weight and pressure of a few thousand heavy foot probably would have broken the line fairly easily, if the enemy weren't english.
They were, so the archers charged the flanks of the french, and getting hit on three sides fucked them.
English archers are unique in that some actually worked their way up to being full on men at arms, and as such, a lot of them would have armor, and ALL of them were capable of CC.
>>398473
>conquer 1/4 of the globe
>neet on a taiwanese cartoon board says England is bad at war
>>398447
So I guess Henry V was big guy for the Constable of France. But nobody cared who he was until he put on the crown. But he crashed the Kingdom of France with no survivors, and started the fire of the 100 Years War.
>>400962
They were good at conquering third world shitholes and defenseless tribes as >>398975 pointed out
>>401031
They did eventually BTFO or help BTFO the bottom 4 empires though.
>>401031
The Roman Empire pictured was literally just conquered natives too, the Spanish Empire there is just from inheritance and personal unions and shit, no actual conquest, the French Empire was only a quick conquest lasting a few years that did more damage to the country than good, same with Germany.
s m h t b h f a m
>>401117
Romans conquered natives who were largely at technological parity with them.
>>401132
Perhaps, but with the exception of Carthage, most of them had little tactics or organization when compared to Rome.
>>401140
Are you fucking kidding me?
I want you to get a map.
Okay, now see everything south of Bulgaria, east of italy, out to about iraq?
Just as organized, with semi professional or professional armies.
When Nathan Rotschild acquired UK with a bluff on the waterloo battle result. The famous Rotschild messenger. It was the start of international banking cancer.
>>400672
>Unfortunately, nobody wanted to be in the mounted unit-no money or glory- so it set out horribly under strength, couldn't get to a flank, and thought it DID reach the english, it did so scattered, formation less, and with no impetus.
Eh, maybe not. According to Berry Herald, the French cavalry did not expect the English to move forward to attack the army with arrows, and many of the horses were unsaddled and had been led away to feed.
>>401537
It'slikely amix of both.
>>399537
>At this point you're denying the testimony of german military police and people within the camps.
Germans who were found to have worked in the camps faced 25+ or death if found guilty. They did what they had to do to survive, including singing like canary about what life in the camps was like. I'm also leaning towards the belief that some may have been tortured into giving evidence, which would be inadmissible in court. I know Rudolf Hoess was, and he was hung anyway. It's a witch hunt anyway. They're trying to prosecute a 95 year old medic as an "accessory to murder". A fucking medic ffs.
As for inmate testimony, it pays to paint yourself as a victim. The more pathetic, the better. They also paint the German as being so diabolically evil so as to incur laughter. It's ridiculously unbelievable.
>If you're going to treat the range of eyewitness testimony with some kind of debelief, then it's going to be very difficult for you to believe the holocaust happened at all.
Honestly, I hold human testimony in very low regard in this situation. There's so much nonsense about the Holocaust floating around, so many inconsistencies between stories, that it's hard for me to believe someone's testimony alone, even if their testimony were to support my opinions.
>You're doing a very good job of denying the holocaust,
Denying the Holocaust was never my intention. It could have happened, but I need evidence to believe there was a homicide program, not blind faith as it is now.
Faith is for the birds.
>but it isn't from a point of rationality.
There is nothing irrational about requiring evidence for something to be believable. I think I've more than made my point about how laughably little evidence there is, besides human testimony.
>holocaust industry
Holocaust industry. That should ring bells loud and clear.
>>399537
>There's plenty of evidence for the shitty conditions prisoners were transported in, they weren't fit to get there in shape to work. If they were going to be sent to camps to work, why was there a debate in the German leadership concerning whether the ghettos should be used for industry or to take out Jews through attrition?
Have you seen the Auschwitz photo book? I've included a picture from it in this post. Do they look like they've been travelling in horrendous conditions? Do they look starved, or thirsty, or scared, or like they're in no condition to work? There's a girl grinning at the camera (3rd face on the right). I couldn't say riding in a cattle car is the most humane or comfortable way of transporting people, but they certainly don't look like they've suffered during their transportation, at least none of the tribulations claimed by the story tellers.
I do appreciate your civility in discussing the subject. All too easily people resort to name calling or sticking their heads in the sand. It's very refreshing.
>>401140
Greek city states of Southern Italy
Sicily
Epirus
Macedonia
Seleucid Empire
Ptolemaic Egypt
Carthage
Achaean League
Aetolian League
Individually any of them should have been a match for Rome. That Rome conquered them was a consequence of their incompetence, mostly through squabbling, and Roman success in the fields of diplomacy, legalism, and military might. Not their 'organizational' or 'technological' short comings.
>>402295
Daily reminder that the Romans didn't simply steamroll their way throughout Europe. It took 70 years to conquer Greece, 200 years to conquer Spain, but only 8 years to conquer Gaul
>>398612
This is what happens when you use the Institute of Historical Revue as a source unironically.
>>398558
I am sure that most people with a rational mind could accept these as facts:
1. Hitler hated the Jews, and thought they were subhumans
2. Hitler created policies in Germany that striped German Jews of citizenship, and created an environment of persecution in Germany.
3. Hitler made a speech on January 30 1939 in front of the Reichstag in which he said he would Annihilate the Jews
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AFhwwgL-94
4. War breaks out and Jews start to disappear and be taken to camps throughout Greater Germany.
5. Many of these people are never seen or heard from again, and those who are, speak of unimaginable atrocities.
6. The Allies claim to have over 40 tons of documents, photographs, confessions, testimony, diaries, circumstantial evidence, and physical remains of victims
7. During the following war crime trials NOT A SINGLE nazi denied the crimes they were accused of (said they were simply following orders).
I don't see how anyone with an objective eye could come up with anything other than 70 years of research has provided us.
>>399965
Plus, it's not like we're going to give the land back to the native americans. So why should we expect different from them?
>>401031
>conquering third world shitholes and defenseless tribes
Actually the Indian kingdoms were fairly strong.
>>402580
Up until point 5, there's no dispute from me. It's from then on in that I start to doubt the authenticity of the claims.
>6. The Allies claim to have over 40 tons of documents, photographs, confessions, testimony, diaries, circumstantial evidence, and physical remains of victims
If such evidence really did exist, then there would be no cause for doubt.
- There are no documents that prove the existence of homicidal gas chambers. None at all. If they did exist, it would be front page news around the world. But all the historians say "it was an oral order", which is as good as saying "No evidence exists". The same can be said for diaries.
- There aren't any photographs that support the notion of genocide, mass killings, abuse, etc. I posted a picture before from the Auschwitz Photo Album of a fresh transport of Jews. They don't appear to have traveled in the fetid conditions many witnesses have claimed. Aerial photographs of Auschwitz during the war don't support the claim that there were cremations going around the clock either.
- Confessions and testimony I've always been iffy about, as I've said. We know many confessions were obtained from torture or under duress. Rudolf Hoess' confession, for example, was in English, even though he didn't know how to read or write english. Many of the workers of the camps knew they were fucked either way, so they would have played along, told them whatever they wanted to hear, in order to avoid being killed. Denial of the accusations was a death sentence.
- If the physical remains of even one victim demonstrated signs of gas poisoning, that would be enough to change my mind. But it doesn't exist. The emaciated bodies found in the western camps were caused by a collapse in German infrastructure, not by some elaborate plan to starve the inmates. There wasn't even enough food for German civilians by the end of the war, what were they supposed to feed the inmates?
>>398886
>mangos are delicious
They are not. They are too sweet and sticky.
>>402653
To be honest the way the British 'conquered' the Indians was fairly underhanded.
The Indians were fucking dumb to have let them in as far as they did, no doubt about it, but after the British got a foothold and set in place the laws that they did; India became theirs relatively easily.
It was smart and effective, but it certainly wasn't no Caesar in Gaul.
>>398779
I think it's more thats it's a backwater shithole and they couldn't rile up enough support to make a real go at it. Why send your sons to go die to beat up some camel fuckers?
>>402694
>We know many confessions were obtained from torture or under duress. The allies had time to interrogate and torture 8 million nazis in a single year? why has not a single nazi recanted their testimony and claim it was done under torture in the 70 years since?
You can view the microfiche of the original documents, if you go to the national archives in DC, or go to their website http://www.archives.gov/ and email them in what type of research you are looking to do, and they can actually scans of the things you are for (used them a lot back in college, and they are very helpful for a government agency)
Have you read Goebbels diaries? (26 volumns so it would take you a long time)...but if you read a book that cuts through some of the dull blah, you will find many hidden gems about Hitler's instructions regarding the jews.
For example:
>"The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only about 40 per cent can be used for forced labor." March 27, 1942
Some who try to deny the holocaust act as if every jew that was killed was killed in camps. Not true at all. The Einsatzgruppen liquidated 1.3 million jews according to THEIR numbers (but historians agree that the number is a tad bit less than this since Einsatzgruppen commanders would exadurate their numbers to please their bosses in Berlin. Also there were Ghettos where rations often consisted of 300 calories a day.
As far as the Zyklon B, IG Farben like any responsible company kept records of their orders and shipments of their product. And one of the post war trial of IG Farben, they showed that a few of the nazi camps were ordering a 7 year supply of Zyklon B every month.
>>402838
CONTINUED
Another argument that you often hear and that you mentioned is about damaged infrastructure preventing supplies from getting to the camps. To this I would say 2 things:
1. The majority of victims killed in the holocaust were killed during 1941-1942 during the invasion of the soviet union during the height of nazi power.
2. From estimates from the bomber command of US and RAF only 3 of 1000 bombs dropped in Europe landed within 1 mile of their intended target. So targeting a railroad would be not only difficult, but a waste of resources especially when a section of bombed railroad can be repaired within a few days.
Also the nazis had no trouble using rail taking jews to the camps through January 1945, we have train records that the nazis very well detailed that prove this.
>>399074
There's more than one culture in Europe and many, many wars have been fought because of that, so his post still stands even if there were next to none of those scary, scary brown people :^)
>>399017
what the fuck happened? was the place full of traps or did they just shoot each other for lulz?
>>402580
Hitler hated the kikes, discriminated them and eventually put them in concentration camps
No one denies this
What we dont believe in are the "death camps" and the numbers
A few hundred thousands kikes died in captivity of starvation and disease because the war made conditions in camps difficult.
Then, kikes invented the "death camps" myth and inflated numbers so people would pity them and support the creation of Israel.
>>398425
Have you ever spoken to a holocaust survivor?
Where did their families go, the magic zionist bunker in the sky?
>>403109
Died as a result of the myriad things that are detailed in the thread like malnutrition.
Those are the ones who didn't dream it, of course.
>>398562
They still use tortue now in the c.i.a though
>>402295
thing is, any normal ancient empire would capitulate after a battle like Trebia
The Romans were mental, they carried on even after Cannae
As long as they were the hotheaded republic with BIG levies, nobody could stop them from crashing the Med with no survivors.
>>398536
Take this stale meme with you back to /int/ and stay there
>>403102
>What we dont believe in are the "death camps" and the numbers
Knowing what other events of mass death took place in the very same century, what exactly is so unbelieveable about death camps where millions die?
>>398402
The US electing Reagan...Twice.
>>403086
A combination of naval mines, landmines and boobytraps left by the Japs, and thick fog causing the US and Canadian troops to mistake each other for the enemy.
>>402804
Then why go for it a whole four times? British soldiers were also there by choice, as it was pretty much the best career option for a huge majority of young men. Really wasn't the same as entering a big war, conscripting a la ww2, or anything like that.
>holocaust denial on a fucking history board
you people need to crawl back to /stormfront/ and stay there
>>399921
...did you mean the Bonus Army?
>>403664
Your point? I was responding to an idiot who exclaimed that the reason Rome eventually conquered them all was because they were categorically inferior.
That is plain not true. They were inferior, but it wasn't because Rome had transcended everybody else magically... everybody else just fell over themselves.
>>403830
ay lmao nazis etc.
>>403830
the holocaust is vastly overblown, try learning this shit for yourself instead of just accepting what movies and public school tells you
>>404677
The evidence is there. Just take a cursory glance at all the photographs, Nazi speeches, testimony (still being given by survivors and perpetrators over 70 years later, so you can't just say "Those testimonies were only gotten by torture!"), and physical evidence (such as barbed wire fences, crematoria, guard towers, and gas chambers). Edgy stormfags like you stay in /pol/ because everyone else just destroys your arguments for easy sport.
>>400348
Bullshit, the term comes from the sunburn most farm workers got on their necks from working too much under the sun.
>>404677
The holocaust is probably the most obsessively researched topic in human history. The idea that the historians are just repeating the western propaganda party line can be easily dismissed by the fact that historians can't even agree on the comparable situation of mass death under Stalin (was it deliberate genocide or incompetence etc.), whereas the holocaust is literally only denied by the most fringe retards.
>>404912
you know pictures of the holocaust have been proven to be doctored right?
sometimes not even picturing jews at all yet being called jews getting killed, and no one cares, people saw it once and if it's proven fake later they don't care, that's why it's so easy
i'm sorry it hurts you're feelings but the holocaust is fake. that's all there is to it. the allies used it to keep attention diverted from their own war crimes. the media used it to make money perpetrating a lie through book deals and movies and television and newspapers and magazines. An entire country has a reason for it to be real and to always be brought up.
the holocaust is not real, hitler was fighting banks and communism, he lost, can you really say the world is a better place for it
>>405416
And yet not one of the supposed fake survivors or fake guards or fake allied soldiers, gave come out and admitted it was a lie and they were told to say it, or that they built the fake sets or took the fake photos or wrote the fake reports. No one person, in almost 80 years.
Even the ones on their death beds kept to the story. Even the ones who couldn't remember their wife's face remembered the story. That's some pretty deep levels of loyalty.
>>399889
They're probably so broken it might not even be possible. Some end up loving their captors due to Stockholm Syndrome, too.
>>398430
>Tom Bombadil
>>405440
Fuck off nobody wants facts in our board, back to pol loser.
>>398430
The explanation is simple
HERESY
E
R
E
S
Y
>>405536
>>398402
The holocaust never happened
>>405498
Well, no wonder they won with Tom on their side. Bet he was whistling and singing while cutting down Cathars.
It's just strange desu senpai
The French Cavalry charge was bogged down by mud and then surrounded by man at arms.
>>405416
why do you fuckers keep talking about this shit? this is an agincourt thread retard.
And you lost by default because of godwins law.
reatrd cocksucking edgy teenage dickhead.
>>405779
>Agincourt
>Cavalry charge
There was no cavalry charge at Agincourt, except a few horsemen attempting to hit the English flanks.
Crecy is the battle everyone thinks Agincourt was.
>>398402
I expected to find a lot of pseudo history, unsourced opinions and other bullshit.
I was not disappointed.
>>401117
Spain did inherit HRE, but they did defend their territories from franc, english and they protected europe from the ottomans, in Lepanto, so they did more for europe than britain
>>401140
Organization didn't matter really m8, look at Hispania and their resistance, the first province to be invaded and the last one to be conquered, also, they germans didn't have kingdoms or organization like the kingdoms in the east but they still managed to fight off the romans in teutoburg
>>398402
Both World Wars
>>401117
>the Spanish Empire there is just from inheritance and personal unions and shit
Yes, the Spaniards inherited all their peninsula by marrying with moors. And Italy by marrying with the french, not rekting them.
>>398430
Why was the french army inferior in numbers? How could a bunch of counts and the backwater kingdom of Aragon muster a larger force?
>>398402
>TFW born American and after years of never being taught EU history, I finally get a taste of what my ancestors were like before being American.
>TFW read into French History to learn and realized how much more wars were fought and lost by my French ancestors.
Being born American and raised in southern states, I was raised with this pride of "Ha, we're fucking bad ass!" My beautiful American bubble is shattered after realizing my ancestors got fucked by British people
>>398402
Battle of the Somme.
>3 months
>over 1 million casualties
Just...damn
>>401031
Why does that map not show a german occupied Denmark?
>>406319
The French won that war though and emerged better than ever, England plunged into civil war.
>>406319
you do realize the french had emerged victorious from the 100yw
>>406351
This. England lost the Hundred Years War so badly they started fighting each other over who would get the blame for losing.
>>406319
I don't recall a single major conflct where the brits defeated France by themselves.
>>398467
>loosing
>loose
FUCKING STOP THIS
>>404677
you know the nazis recorded at a minimum, 4 million dead jews right?
Like documented fact
>>398402
The Fourth Crusade obviously
>>405498
>Tom Bombadil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRVIVJjuaHE
>>402699
We have places for you, revisionist Western bootlick!
>>399895
>He cried out, "I am the king!" but was killed regardless
>>399895
>>407246
This translation is bad. The quote is "El rei, heus-el aquí!" and while it indeed means that he is the king, the connotation is that he is taunting the french to come and fight him. He said "I'm the king" because the french had previously killed the man that was disguised as the king so Peter could join the melee and fight like another knight.
Peter II of Aragon fought in the Navas de Tolosa and participated in the famous charge of the three kings. He was no coward, on the contrary, he was the stupid kind of brave that charges in the front line and gets killed.
>>406351
truth
>>406319
lol retard
>>398453
>England was dishonourable
Who cares. It's war.
>>399930
The book The Bomb In My Garden proves he had WMDs
>>399501
Why haven't I heard of this? the fug
>>401031
New history board and it's already infested with shitposts like this
>>407623
Using this fucking selective chart which has a tally of 6 BRITISH victories and 6 French victories. By this more indepth list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_Kingdom it ends with a tally of about 21 British victories to Frances like 10 or something.
>>405498
>>408099
>Using this fucking selective chart which has a tally of 6 BRITISH victories and 6 French victories
Eight is a smaller number than fourteen, dude.
>>403102
What about the Einsatzgruppen? Were they fictitious as well?
>>405416
Why did hitler say in numerous speeches he wanted to exterminate the jews? was he just kidding?
Why hasn't a SINGLE nazi of the 8 million the allies interviewed in the year after the war recanted their testimony and said it was given under torture?
