Why does the history and culture of Southern Italy differ so drastically from the rest of Western Europe? If anything they are like somewhere in the Caucasus in terms of clannishness and tribal mentality and culture. Did they ever do anything historically to unify and pose any sort of military threat to anything?
>>397322
>>397323
>>397322
They were Greek
>>397326
>>397327
But even their culture is not very similar to greek culture. Greeks arent really generally thought to be clannish and tribal
>>397328
>>397333
>>397335
>>397336
>>397339
>>397341
>>397345
In modern times, the abuse and exploitation of Southerners at the hands of various foreign powers have lead some political scientists like Edward Banfield to offer various reasons to Southern culture.
He calls it "amoral familism", a condition in which socially, Southerners live in an anarchic climate in which there is a war of "all against all". For instance, families often become suspicious of other families for doing better than them and will inadvertently sabotage other families or refuse to help them if it means they will not gain.
The reason that Banfield offers is that constant poverty amongst the lower classes, seasonal work (which lead to the rise of organised crime and brigandry) and harsh rule by various foreign kings (Normans, Spanish, French, Piedmontese) have created a culture of suspicion, badly understood individuality and selfishness.
Very interesting stuff.
>>397364
I just think its interesting that a population of people can have a reputation for being completely hardened souls, with an almost sociopathic culture of tough criminals, and also have the reputation of being conquered by many foreign powers historically. Were they ever full conquered? As in they were ruled in an almost completely authoritarian way? Or was it usually an uneasy truce between the ruling powers and the population who the rulers were careful not to upset and impose too autocratic a rule?
>>397345
that dude looks like a fucking wizard
>>397377
damn straight.
>>397329
>Greeks arent really generally thought to be clannish and tribal
They are. Just spend some time in the villages under the Olympus and see for yourself.
>>397373
Southerners throughout history have been deemed to be naturally anarchic in their nature and there has always been rebellion and uprising there.
Foreign rule didn't impose too much on the Southerners, it served more to just exacerbate conditions. For example, these foreign rulers constantly abused and exploited locals economically by taxing too high or tricking peasants into selling wheat for well below market price.
From this a precedence is set and it's very hard to shake it.
>>397329
>Greeks
>So racist they considered other Greeks barbarians
>These people lived in isolated mountain settlements for all of history
>Can tell you their tribal lineage going back to the early Indo-European invasions
And you have the gall to say they're not clannish and tribal?
>>397384
so Southern Italy has almost always had a guerrilla type society almost? With constant low intensity conflict between the native population and the ruling powers?
>>397322
Why does Calabria in particular have pretty much the highest murder rate in Europe?
>>397389
For the modern period that has been the perception. It's not entirely true and what you claim would be an exaggeration but that has been the perception, yes.
>>397395
interesting. I just find the culture of the mezzogiorno to be so unique and fascinating. Its almost like an orient inside Europe
>>397405
yeah, it's currently my main focus of work. I suggest picking up Moral Basis of a Backward Society by Edward Banfield. Just don't look into Northern perceptions of the South and take them to be true. There is always a motive behind it, trust me.
>>397420
What other conditions were there that created this unique culture? Do you think the geography may have something to do with it? There tends to be a correlation between mountainous regions and tribalism/clans and all of the wacky stuff that tends to go with that. What do you think? Calabria in particular seems to exemplify this
>>397435
Mountain regions, no, there is no clear correlation. Climate and seasons yes. Much of the agricultural work is seasonal in the mezzogiorno which, for the extremely poverty stricken Southern peasant, meant turning to work in the off season..
In the South a man could earn a year's wage off becoming brigand and turning to crime. This would allow him to live off something for the next six months and then return to fruit picking or farming in the other six months. As things got more organised, we see the rise of mafia.
>>397448
Not related to the mezzogiorno, but you dont see a correlation between mountains and clannishness? It is a pretty well studied topic and generally agreed upon
>>397448
>In the South a man could earn a year's wage off becoming brigand and turning to crime. This would allow him to live off something for the next six months and then return to fruit picking or farming in the other six months. As things got more organised, we see the rise of mafia.
This sounds similar to how the Barbary pirates operated. Is there any similarity in the societies of Southern Italy and North Africa?
>>397459
>Nepal
>North India
>South China
>Tibet
All heavily mountainous and no real tribal culture. Yet the Middle East isn't awfully mountainous and was still gripped by tribalism.
>It is a pretty well studied topic and generally agreed upon
Yeah, by people who have little clue as to what they're talking about.
>>397465
>Is there any similarity in the societies of Southern Italy and North Africa?
Superficially, sure.
>>397467
>Kurds
>Baloch
>All of the Caucasus
>Scotland traditionally
>Basques
>certain African tribes
>Montingards
>Hmong
>Pashtuns
>Albanians
>American "hill billies" in Appalachia
>Calabria and the rest of mountainous Southern Italy
I am not saying that mountains automatically means tribalism and clannishness, or that if you dont have mountains you dont have these things. But it would be ludicrous to say there wouldnt be at least SOME correlation between these things
>>397322
Unlike northern Italy, they were a real mish mash of cultures. Greek, Germanic, Saracen, Norman, Spanish etc. I think Sicily might be the most conquered place in Europe.
>>397489
I would say that mountains only allow tribalism to hide and preserve itself, away from the de-tribalising forces of urbanisation. There is literally no proof or concrete correlation between the two, however.
>>397506
that would make sense. And would definitely explain the correlation.
>>397511
Poverty, de-centralisation and lack of industry/urbanisation is the cause of tribalism existing into the modern age.
>>397516
That. And some cultures being inherently more tribal than others. There are plenty of poor places without tribal cultures too
>>397520
Sure culture plays its part too.
>>397467
>Nepal
I'll give ya that one
>North India
Tribal as fuck
>South China
Clusterfuck of xenophobic ethnic groups before the Han tried to Han them
>Tibet
You DO know what happened to the other natives of Tibet, right?
>>397542
We're talking family tribalism here as opposed to ethnocentrism and ethnic tensions.
>>397555
Southern Italian "tribalism" as you call it, is purely family based and only on a family to family basis. Not on a whole ethnic level.
>>397562
Sure, there is absolutely nothing clannish about the different organised crime groups in Southern Italy. Particularly in Calabria. They are only referred to as clans, right?
>>397566
>organised crime
Very different to the rest of the population, thank you very much.
>>397571
Not really. It is culturally embedded there and is much more than opportunistic criminals like other criminal organizations. ANother factor being the blood ties which are incredibly important among Mafia culture.
Has southern Italy recovered from the first punic war yet?
>>397394
Mafia and drugs.
>>397578
>criminal organizations
>Mafia culture
This is not the rest of the society.
ok, now I realise that you haven't come into this thread willing to actually learn anything but instead are looking to organised crime and the mafia as some form of ultimate cultural product of the South.
You literally know nothing outside of mafia documentaries and the Godfather. The South is not defined by the acts of a few, however how much they are promoted.
>>397589
You are just... wrong. Clans arent the rest of any society. But they are a huge part of them. And you are naive if you dont think that Mafia culture is not a huge part of society in southern italy
>>397593
False. Fuck off with your pop-history.
I'm sick of Southern Italian history devolving into just "mafia! mafia!". They are literally a state within a state.
Basically when the Roman Empire fell, there was no strong central government so the existing family structures grew into tribes. This was a big deal in the small states and city states of Italy for a good time, but northern Italy got partially civilized by the Pope, the Holy Roman Empire, and etc, while the south was the plaything of the religious wars, being alternately controlled by Catholics, Byzantines, and Arabs throughout the middle ages, and in more recent times it continued to be the plaything of Mediterranean powers until uniting into the Two Sicilies and then until Garibaldi decided to make a new country.
>>397603
and it was still treated as a colony under the Kingdom of Italy.
>>397601
Someone is mad. Maybe learn to read? I didnt say southern Italian culture was just mafia... but you are going to respond to something completely different than what was said. It must sooth your autism
>>397603
Good answer.
>>397329
>Greeks arent really generally thought to be clannish
>>397364
Thank you, anon. I am Albanian and I have used many of those words that you find under "amoral familism" to describe my own "democratic community". Democracy here is understood as a fight between families, although it applies to what lies beyond the nuclear family: Here it is members or ex members of specific villages. You are tied and identified on the basis of what village your predecessor come from - you vote for the person closest to it.
>>397996
Greeks are more or less the same as the post above.
They have more or less been conquered for the same duration as well, since that seems to be the main factor for the development of family amoralism.
>>398290
I am most interested in how one dissolves such an understanding of democracy.
>>398305
Not that guy, but look, this probably also answers the question concerning the Southern Italians.
You might want a national identity to supersede the identity of the tribe/clan/village/family.
If your country's leadership constantly changes language/ethnicity/religion, you won't give a fuck about them.
That guy on the throne is not the King, the Pharaoh, the Emperor, the Pope, the ultimate symbol of national unity chosen by the gods. He's the currently reigning cunt, ready to be deposed at any moment by the next.
Funnily enough, the infamous Farage & /int/ quote "pretty much a non-country" is most relevant here.
Can you trust such people? Will you ever die for such people?
How about you stick to the people you actually know and care about instead?
When this thingy is taken to its logical extreme, you may some African State where the borders were drawn by foreigners, the ethnic groups had no part in determining the size of the country, the people go to vote and the newly elected president genocides the ethnic group(s) of the elections' losers.
Do you want a democracy that doesn't degenerate in tribal warfare too much? Build some sense of national unity first for a while.
It's a historical transition (muh fascism) you would like to skip, but perhaps it is best you don't.
>>397329
Greeks aren't clannish and tribal when the defining feature of classical Greece was city-states that basically were tribes?
>>397593
>And you are naive if you dont think that Mafia culture is not a huge part of society in southern italy
What makes you think that?
>>397329
You don't know anything about Greece?
>>398335
We have everything: Our dances, our songs, our symbols, our customs, our paganist religious ancestry, we are actually tied to the region and our language is the continuation of ancient languages where we are situated. The main problem isn't that. The main problem is not having had complete self governance for almodt 2000 of years because Romans, Greeks, Turks and Slavs and when being put into a position where we have it, not knowing how to act, and thus diverting back to what we -know- is relatively safe (the clan). Which is to say I know it's stupid shit like most other academics, but that that is the general consensus, at least for now. Globalisation has people looking to better nations for inspiration on how to better model their country, or at least I like to think it.
In regards to the "fascism" part: 20th century was not as important as 19th century identity building for countries in Europe - we had our second "national revival" in the late 1800s which amounted to us being much less land that we felt a claim towards, but land it was still. But that was that.
It's going to take some time. But we have a strong diaspora which is still growing in strength. The diaspora are also very connected spiritually to the region so their efforts won't go unnoticed.
If you actually look at it we're in the best position we have ever been (with the exception of when we were an Axis ally) since the 1400s and the Roman Empire before it.
But yeah, it's a struggle to convince people to put their stakes in the country and people of the region as a whole; to work together.
But it's a thing of time essentially.
>>397394
>Ndrangheta
>Illegal activities
>Revenge mentality
>Faidas
>10109382929 small villages hidden in mountains buttfuck where such activities can fester
>>398381
>muh dispora
silcilians living in trenton or newark aren't italian and aren't sicilian, they're burgers
t. milian resident
>>397394
Source?
