Why were the Mongols so based?
Being savages yet staying united.
>>396279
good leadership and being dedicated fighters
>>396279
Because they are the exception.
They were quick to adopt new military tech. They used all sorts of gunpowder weapons after the chinese invented them
Mobility
>>396296
[spoiler]DA DAA DADADAAAAAA[/spoiler]
the steppe made them hard as fuck and ridiculously good horsemen
Their entire armies were mounted and they had no supply lines so they jogged circles around everyone else
Also they had some vert brilliant leaders.
Check out Dan Carlin's podcasts on them.
If only they didn't splinter, they may have been the most powerful nation of the 21st century.
>>396279
they didnt even have a writing system back then but the leadership and strategy were the best
>>396309
Could be said about any empire to be honest my family
>>396279
They were a martial race that gained momentum due to their military skill and kept it up due to staying united and co opting the advantages of the peoples they conquered. Basically this was the formula for success in antiquity and the middle ages. Same thing happened with the early Muslim Arabs.
barbaric fucks
>>396279
They were good at riding horses and shooting bows
What makes them based? They were fucking shit.
>empire collapsing 5 minutes after conquest
Like hell, conquering something is not an art, maintaining it is.
When did mongols stop being mongol-y? What was the last mongol horde?
>>397457
Russian federation, IIRC.
>>397445
I think you're thinking of the Huns. The Mongol Empire lasted a little under 200 years, and three of its four direct successor states lasted into the 1600s.
Could the mongols have conquered western Europe?
>>397477
No, it split into several different hordes, none of which was even a proper empire to begin with. Just a bunch of horsefuckers riding around and collecting taxes, they didn't actually build a country.
>>397483
This
Mongolboos are delusional
>>397483
>they didn't actually build a country.
Chinggis Khan (Genghis Khan) is internationally recognized and also legally recognized as the founder of the nation of Mongolia.
>>397483
they were more like giant extortion rackets than empires. Most anyway
>>397490
>AYO BATAAR YOU GOT THAT PERSIAN TAX F4M? I WANT DAT GUD SHIT MONG NOM SAYIN WE WUZ HUNS N SHEET
>>397499
>When you get down to it though, that's essentially what an empire is.
That's essentially what a state is.
Kinda funny how mongolia is literally irrelevant today
How comparable were steppe mongols to great plains native Americans?
>>397550
>to great plains native Americans?
No empire
>>397550
Plains Indians only had a few hundred years at most to adopt horses and shape their culture around them.
Mongols and other steppe peoples had thousand upon thousands of years to perfect it.
>>396279
>cause untold horrors, mass-murders, and acts of terror
>based
>>398013
Wow, sounds like all wars ever.
>>398019
These weren't wars, they were slaughters. Basically a bunch of nomads attacked a bunch of isolated pseudo-Russkies, and that was about it.
Horse archers were literally OP, like phalanxes before them
e x c e p t i o n
>nobody posting the thread theme
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=el93MIxAf-c
>>398035
>Persia
>pseudo Russkies
>>397536
And more Mongols live in China in Inner Mongolia (chink cultural imperialism much) than in Mongolia proper. Mongol irredentism when?
>>398288
>Chinese cultural imperialism
Lelno. There's a reason why Mongol traditions survived in China but were almost eliminated in Mongolia. Chinese Mongs got more leeway.
The only group that gets shit on for its culture are the Tibetans and Uyghurs really. Radical religions tied with their original culture does that for ya
>>398293
I was more referring to the fact the regions are named Inner and Outer Mongolia based on their location to China.
>>398262
How Scintillatingly Entertaining
>>398300
>Inner Mongolia
Lol even though there's like twice the Mongol population there compared to actual Mongolia, 80% of the population is Han Chinese.
Yeah, they're getting that back.
>>398288
>And more Mongols live in China in Inner Mongolia (chink cultural imperialism much)
You do realize "Inner Mongolia" was invented by Mao Zedong right? It was originally six different province, with a HAN Chinese majority that got mashed up into one province and Mongolified to make the Mongs happy.
>>397479
Yes. If they had devoted themselves to the task, of course they could have. But in the end they prob felt
cost > gains
i love how this board praises mongols but hates vikings
both were criminal bands of brainless warmongers and rapists.
mongols destroyed lots of cultures all over asia, and if it wasn't for the eastern yuro nations they'd had destroyed europe too.
>>398384
Viking dodn't conquer half the world, the mongols and anglos did(although the Vikings kucked the anglos good)
>>398384
that's because Mongols fought with actual armies and won and had a large empire meanwhile vikings got their asses handed to them the moment they met any resistance and were so inept they couldn't even fully conquer a war torn country
>>398384
I actually don't like Mongols, due to the retarded popular history that surrounds them. Sort of like what weeaboos did to Japan for me:
I mean just look at the most common popular knowledge about them
>MONGOLZ SEKRIT WEAPON IS THE COMPOSITE RECURVE BOW
Already known to the world from Eastern Europe to Korea since the BC's, Jesus.
>THE MONGULZ SEKIRT STRATEGY IS TO AVOID KOMBAT AND JUST SKIRMISH WITH HORSE ARCHERS, ONLY TO RETURN LATER TO A TIRED ENEMY AND KILL DEM
What is Steppe Warfare in General...
>THE MONGOLS WERE NOT BARBARIANS AS THEY WERE MERITOCRATIC
Adopted from Chinese governance
>AND RAN THE EMPIRE WITH BUREAUCRACY
...that didn't work due to shitty clan politics
>AND THE INNOVATIONS OF A PONY EXPRESS STYLE SYTEM
Again adopted from Chinese governance.
I'd honestly rather discuss Indo-Iranian horse nomads, the Turkics, the Jurchens, and the Khitan Liao, and Timur's crew but god, Mongol historical discussion makes me puke. They're the Samurai-Ninja Pop History discourse of Central Asian history.
>>398589
so edgy
![Hulagu_1[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/VSZK2JT.jpg "Hulagu_1[1].jpg")
>>398589
>Already known to the world from Eastern Europe to Korea since the BC's, Jesus.
Wrong, it is still unknown how the mongol bows during the time of Genghis Khan were made.
>The old Mongolian bows that were used during the times of Genghis Khan were smaller than the modern weapons used at most Naadam festivals today. The Mongolian archery tradition may be continuous, but archery was officially outlawed[1] in Mongolia after it was conquered by the Manchu dynasty.[2] Manchu soldiers entered gers and broke any bows that they found. Over two hundred years of enforcement these changes stuck and the ancient art of bow making was nearly lost along with a majority of archery games and traditions. Modern Mongolian bows are derived from the Chinese / Manchu tradition; they are larger and have string bridges.
And here is how strong they were:
>While Chinggis Khan was holding an assembly of Mongolian dignitaries, after his conquest of Sartaul (East Turkestan), Yesüngge (the son of Chinggis Khan's brother) shot a target at 335 alds (536 m)."
>What is Steppe Warfare in General...
And which other steppe clans were using siege weapons and throwable explosives?
>Adopted from Chinese governance
Wrong, Genghis Khan started reformating the mongol army after 1206, a few years before they had any contact with china.
>...that didn't work due to shitty clan politics
They controlled half of the world untill the death of Möngke Khan in 1259, you may know some longer lasting empires but noone of them did control such vast terrotories with only 1 million ethnic mongols.
>Again adopted from Chinese governance.
Proof? Even if they adopted it, they perfected it.
>While it was not the first messenger system in history (earlier ones existed in the Persian and Roman Empires), it was unprecedented in size and efficiency.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yam_%28route%29
>Based
Nothing based about being a plague for the world.
They did literaly nothing positive for humanity.
>>397487
irrelevant shit hole desu
They had lots of horses. No one they attacked had as many horses as them.
>>398788
>Nothing based about being a plague for the world.
>>398788
Some people care more about making it into a history book then helping your species.
>>398800
So are many countries, like poland for example.
>>398828
He said HUMANITY, as in the human world, you scum sucking misanthrope. Go hug a tree.
>>398839
Go live in some kekshed in the future, i like free space.
>>398828
>Implying internal warfare wouldn't have done the same shit without the cost of contless cultures, the fall of islam and crippling of asia.
>Meritocracy and Hard as fuck
>Shrewd Diplomats
>Underestimation
The last point especially.
Everyone thought they would just leave or fuck off after a while or they couldnt beat their celestial king. Well the mongols skull fucked them just like the celestial kings, righteous shahs and pheonix emperors before them.
>>398845
Not in the scale of mongol conquests. 40 million people were killed with BOWS AND HORSES in 100-200 years.
>>398851
>Implying they didn't bred another 80 millions anyway
>>398840
Fight me in real life, you memeword using human hater.
![overpopulation[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/dSD08mn.jpg "overpopulation[1].jpg")
>>398855
>>Implying they didn't bred another 80 millions anyway
Without the mongols each of the 80 millions would breed 2 or more humans, resulting in even more overpopulation to this day.
The populations of persia didn't recover back to it's original ammounts until many centuries later.
If it weren't for Genghis Khan, almost every country would be some overpopulated shithole like Bangladesh now.
>>398888
Fewer humans largely means less technological advancement and infrastructure. Humans are a resource.
>>398913
>Humans are a resource.
Proud to be a tool i see? Now go back to ur 100 square feet kekshed.
Explain to me why they are considered an "Empire" if all tehy did was conquer, pillage and move on without leaving any kind of order.
>>398922
>Proud to be a tool i see?
If it's for human progression why not? All those intellectuals they killed in Asia could have easily have done more for the world than any of their soldiers did.
>>398930
You're thinking of the Huns. The Mongols did stay and rule over their conquered territories. Genghis Khan actually devoted his post-conquest years to establishing law and order in his empire, based on a rigid code of laws and behaviors against which infractions were very severely punished. By the time he was done, Genghis Khan boasted that “a virgin with a bag of gold around her neck could walk naked from one end of the realm to another without being attacked”.
There was also a fairly good postal system IIRC.
>>398934
Don't talk to the human hating xenos invading the thread.
>>398784
>Mongol bows
>that secret
Please, they were using the same weapons as other Nomadic Altaic cunts.
I mean, Jesus Christ, mongols didn't even have their own swords/maces/armor. Most of these they got via trading horses with Turkics/Persianates/Tibetans/Chinese/Khitan-Liao/Jurchens.
>And which other steppe clans were using siege weapons and throwable explosives?
Turkics said hi. They were already using siege techniques from the Persians/Arabs/Greeks and also mastered infantry usage.
Furthermore I was talking of cunts who overblow the Horse Archers and are unaware that Mongols used infantry and siege weapons as well.
>Wrong, Genghis Khan started reformating the mongol army after 1206, a few years before they had any contact with china.
Wasnt talking about the Mong army, but the Mong Governance.
>you may know some longer lasting empires but noone of them did control such vast terrotories with only 1 million ethnic mongols.
Irrelevant. Mongol Bureaucracy still suffered due to clan rivalries. Actually! It is relevant. The Mongol Empire was too short because it failed to have a centralized system,
>Proof? Even if they adopted it, they perfected it.
Tss, perfected. They just did it on a bigger scale. Chinese communication system from the capital to its provinces was set up the same way. It's called the Imperial Highway system, and is basically centered around the "main" roads and military outposts along the way said main roads. How do you supposed that big empire ran itself? Telephathy?
Also it was law that inns around the Empire ought to give free service & reserve horses to anyone bearing the so-called "Vermillion Seal," the mark of anyone on government business/mail.
Pic related, its from the Qing Dynasty though, but it is typical of Vermillion Seal receipts. The guy on government business gave this to any Inn owner/anyone who assisted him, who in turn gave it to the nearest Imperial Authority to be reimbursed.
>>398784
>The Mongolian archery tradition may be continuous, but archery was officially outlawed[1] in Mongolia after it was conquered by the Manchu dynasty.[2] Manchu soldiers entered gers and broke any bows that they found. Over two hundred years of enforcement these changes stuck and the ancient art of bow making was nearly lost along with a majority of archery games and traditions. Modern Mongolian bows are derived from the Chinese / Manchu tradition; they are larger and have string bridges.
Oh and btw, this ban is not a testament to the SUPER SPESHUL MONGOL BOW XDDD but the Manchus banned civilian practice of Martial Arts in general.
The Qing dynasty marked the first time in Chinese history, for example, of a weapons ban. People were not allowed to own *actual* weapons nor practice martial arts. Hence the first destruction of the Shaolin Temple.
Hence the emergence of weirdo Chinese martial arts practice and weapons. To loophole the shit out of that ban.
>>398698
Liking Barbarian Tribes is actually edgier, my friend.
>>396279
>Why were the Mongols so based?
Religious and ethnic tolerance, and general multiculturalism.
>>399054
>Mongol religious tolerance.
>Told Jews to stop circumcisions
>Told Muslims to cut it out with the Halal shit.
Fucking kek.
>>399067
Meanwhile, everywhere else in the world...
>KILL ALL HERETICS
They were relatively tolerant. Very tolerant, for the times.
>>399094
All the Arabs did was tax nonbelievers. I guess it was just Christians who were KILL ALL HERETICS.
>>399140
Mongols were the only ones not chasing jews away. They were considered terrorists even in the arab states.
>>399094
>everywhere else in the world...
Wasn't the case in China. It was pretty religiously tolerant at the get go.
Also heresies are internal conflicts within a religion.
In the medieval Islamic/Christian world, nobody killed you for being a Muslim/Christian/Jew. Otherwise all those Muslim Communities of Merchants in Italy and Southern France wouldve been genocided.
But Heresy? Yeap that can fucking kill you. Because it represents deviance from the official doctrine of the religious bodies of Christian and Islamic kingdoms that are fundamentally tied with their monarchical governments. Meaning Heresy is not just a religious rebellion, but a political one as well for Islamic/Christian medieval states.
>>399154
Except for that time on their way to a crusade an army of Christians went door to door in Christian lands eradicating all the Jews that they could find.
>>398589
Are you some sort of historian hipster? Goddamn, son.
There is a nice video on the Mongols by a famous historian.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szxPar0BcMo
>>399252
Some better one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcUiSCASnVs&index=1&list=PLzR7n6cbImSWWTZfsobaMeDbKT5d6OGFx
>>399252
>famous
>historian
>>397479
>Could the mongols have conquered western Europe?
Yes, but they preferred to use the bulk of their forces in Middle East and specially China, that were richer.
>>396307
I just finished listening to Wrath of the Khans, he makes Mongols sound like the most terrifying shit that anybody could be on the same planet as. And I'm sure they were, them niggas were hellbent on conquering the entire fucking world. Makes you wonder where the Middle East would be today if the Mongols hadn't fucked their shit up.
He does a great job of keeping perspective on the morality of what they did without downplaying their military achievements.
>>399289
>And I'm sure they were, them niggas were hellbent on conquering the entire fucking world.
You mean just like the assyrians, the persians, the greeks, the romans, the huns, the arabs, the french, the germans and the japanese at various points of time?
A blue wolf took as his spouse, a fallow doe. And the two bred at the head of the Onan river. Thus, the Mongols were born.
>>398384
seeing vikings as incompetent doesn't mean hating them
>>399455
Sounds hot
>>399067
Honestly, that's pretty fucking tolerant for the Middle Ages.
>>399252
>>398913
>Fewer humans largely means less technological advancement and infrastructure. Humans are a resource.
Less humans means less inventions.
>>396279
By not giving a fuck, OP. That's how you become based.
OP here, fyi the only Mongols that were dressed this well (>>396279) were generals.
Everyone else pretty much fed off rats, wore clothes made of stitched together rat hides and married their horses since most of them were mares.
>>396279
>Why were the Mongols so based?
because of eating mämmi :)
>>396279
>conquered grassland....on horses
So what?
The Mongols weren't that great, they went against weak enemies.
>Yes Medios are weak, they've never beaten an organized force toe to toe
>yes the Russos are weak, never actually did any real fighting beyond themselves(and the Russos resisted the Mongols)
If the Mongols were that great they wouldn't have fallen apart when the Khan died.
They got a lucky break away on their own terms with a good leader, happens all the time.
>>398847
literally none of those.
Diplomacy was okay, but it got them wasted eventually.
>>398913
>Fewer humans largely means less technological advancement and infrastructure
>>400374
>Less humans means less inventions.
You boys fuckin retarded?
Agricultural technology skyrocketed in the Renaissance because the Bubonic plague killed off a huge amount of the peasant farming class.
Less men, means work smarter not harder.
Its like you guys have the mental capacity of an 11 year old.
>>401713
>The Mongols weren't that great, they went against weak enemies.
China was weak?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Huan'erzui
Why did The mongols conquer all the arabs sans the mamluks while europeans could not do it even after trying it for 200 years?
If the mongols were weak then the europeans of that that were even weaker then them.
Why does that faggot from Crash Course Histories love them so much? Sure they were religiously tolerant for their day but they were also brutal and barbaric murderers and rapists.
>Genghis Khan was a very effective leader and tactician
>Mongol warriors were extremely loyal and obedient to the Khan
>Marched along with their families which didn't rely on a supply line
>Horse Archers were the most effective warriors of the time
Doesn't mean they didn't have trouble like with the Mamluks and Dzurdzuks(Chechens)
>>401859
Or the Japanese.
Although that was more the doing of the Kami than the Japanese themselves, they were actually kind of shit at fighting. And while the invasions were repulsed, the Kamakura Shogunate was bankrupted.
>mfw Japanese people today actually believe they "beat" the Mongols
>mfw they don't realize it's because of Chinese shipbuilders deliberately constructing shitty boats
CUZ WE WUZ YUANZ EN SHET
>>398384
>mongols destroyed lots of cultures all over asia, and if it wasn't for the eastern yuro nations they'd had destroyed europe too.
Wrong.
They'd have stromed into germany, wreaked havoc on small villages, and then either died horribly, or fucked off having lost a lot of men for minor gain, never to return.
http://theses.ucalgary.ca/bitstream/11023/232/2/ucalgary_2012_pow_lindsey.pdf
Have a thesis on this exact subject, that explains that European skill at fortification, and the defense of them, is the reason mongols lost interest in European expansion.
>>398784
Jesus fucking christ.
Archer here:
the mongol bow is a fucking composite recurve, it had existed for an extremely long time, europeans had seen it ever since the damned avars attacked, and the middle east was full of them by this time.
Specifics on construction are lost, but we know EXACTLY what it was.
>And here is how strong they were:
As strong as any other composite recurve, with draws likely ranging form 90-150lbs for war bows.
>shot a target at 335 alds (536 m)."
Impressive, and militarily irrelevant, because you'd be doing that with flight arrows or even "flies" which have zero value for wounding a person.
You'll note that steppe nomads were known for getting CLOSE to targets and loosing, not for long range archery.
>And which other steppe clans were using siege weapons and throwable explosives?
The fucking avars, who introduced the trebuchet to europe, where it would be perfected.
>>401821
"the euros" didn't try.
The majority of soldiers LEFT after the first crusade, and outremer never had made up the loss.
"europe" continued fighting "europe" for a few hundred years, and a few rulers took armies to the levant to kill the locals and protect outremer for a few more years, before they, too, went home with their armies.
>>396279
They take half the normal rate of attrition damage and they get free ranged cavalry every time they build a new stable.
>>396279
>you will never go back in time and stop Hulagu from sacking Baghdad like a complete retard, and secure a future where the Khagan successfully becomes the Caliph and the whole world is literally brought under Genghis' banner, where life is based and we're living on Mars by the year 1700.
>>402157
Nigger what?
Mongol slide into being irrelevant was 100% inevitable.
>>402182
Please, If kublai was a generation earlier had been great khan and was respected he could have centralized and created a real mongol empire dues vult or not.
>>402119
I really really like this post.
>>402194
>real mongol empire
No, he couldn't because the clans weren't going to have it, ever.
On top of that, the mongols, being mongols, would have assimilated into local populations withtin a (very) few generations, and these places would have had no interest in being part of an empire.
>>402202
>Tribes havent united before
>>402219
Alright, listen.
I want you to go, and look at the huns, avars, and various turks.
All of these "tribes" were "united".
Except as soon as they suffered a defeat, or any subgroup gained enough strength, the whole fucking thing collapses, with the tribe splitting, other tribes splitting off again, the super tribe (IE, huns) being absorbed into another, any territory actually being held being lost, and the whole cycle of "AND THEN THIS ONE TRIBE GOT SUPER HUGE AND WRECKED SHIT UNTIL IT JUST UP AND FELL APART" starting over.
Steppe tribes united all the time. They also collapsed and separate into constituent components just as often.
Separatists either fleeing the steppe, or chasing their former oppressors off the steppe, are a huge part of WHY steppe nomads would raid the east or west.
This is ignoring that the mongols were not going to give up independence to a man thousands of miles away without a reason, and were still GOING to vanish into local populations, which is exactly what they all did.
>>402253
>Magyars ruling over hungary until literally the end of ww1.
>Avars ruling over the hungary region being a consistent pain in Romes side
>Bulgars not creating a massive kingdom.
The tribal people have united and created kingdoms before the timurids for gods sake created the mughals which lasted until what the 1800s?
>>402275
>bulgars
Went completely fucking native, ended up indistinguishable from the slavs they conquered. Completer with name change.
It didn't start out as "bulgar."
>magyars
Invaded a sparsely settled area, and ended up becoming just another European kingdom.
>avars
Ended up, again, completely indistinguishable from the locals. Turned into christian slavs.
this just reinforces that the mongols would assimilate and fragment.
Which, again, is what they did, in varying degrees, across their territory.
>>402414
You win this round! Assimilation is just the end point for all nomadic people without any real sedentary culture to distinguish them. When they stop being nomadic they stop being themselves.
Threads like this really do have a magic for bringing out the reddit and mongolaboos
Fucking hilarious
>m-muh horse archers
>>398262
I want this guy to come burn my village
>>402127
>"the euros" didn't try.
Yeah sure, like 10 fucking different campaigns by the europeans over the the course of 200 years is categorized as "not even trying"
Face it, you lacked the strenght and unity to remove kebab entirely, also the ayyubids weren't the only muslims around at the time.
>Have a thesis on this exact subject, that explains that European skill at fortification, and the defense of them, is the reason mongols lost interest in European expansion.
Big deal, annihilate all the farmers and stuff go back to mongolia and return in a few years, leaving the europeans with no power.
Good leadership
Steppe life made them hard
Recurved bows and superior horsemanship
Willingness to incorporate and adapt other cultures and their technology to their advantage
>>397479
According to what I've read they didn't bother because they're was significantly less wealth there than in China and the ME. What little there was at the time wasn't worth the effort since it would have meant a lot of long sieges and figuring out how to compensate for the lack of grazing land.
>>396279
>China? I'm Great Mongol State.
>>402036
>>mfw Japanese people today actually believe they "beat" the Mongols
You've never spoken to a Japanse person in your life. Even at the time they believed the gods did all the work.
>>403929
>10 campaings
>200 years
>from people who warred every summer usually
On top of the that, the crusades NEVER inteneded the ttoal conquest of the middle east.
Ever.
"take the holy land"
"expand the borders of outremer to strengthen it"
and "take this vital place from the muslims so they can't attack the holy land as easily"
Is all they did. Ever.
>HUUUUR DE DUUR
READ THE FUCKING PAPER.
>>404307
The Europeans had the issue of literally burning their wealth to keep it out of mongol hands.
So you hav e the best defenses the mongols have seen, the best siege defenders in the world, they won't fall to bribes or trickery, because FUCK listening to pagan liars, and at most you're going to gain a little rape and some far animals.
Oh, and you can sack a farming village.
Wasn't worth it even in poland, never mind the fortified nest of crossbowmen that was germany.
>>398589
So essentially your argument is that Mongols took existing ideas and copied them.
While this may have some truth, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Being able to utilise preexisting carfare tactics and use them better than others in the region is a major plus point to the mongols in my opinion.
